I discovered your website today, and have the feeling it may be educational for me to understand the Thai. Right now, I’m angry, frustrated at the selfdestroying mentality of the Thai. Ever since 2006 these two main blocks oppose eachother and apparently no-one tries to reach out, to compromise. This week is/was Mandela’s week. I think Thai should learn from him and one quote in particular: “IF YOU WANT TO MAKE PEACE WITH YOUR ENEMY, YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH YOUR ENEMY. THEN HE BECOMES YOUR PARTNER.”
Hopefully the Thai learn to seek win-win solutions, otherwise these two blocks will divide the country more and more and it may escalate to extremes in this (once) ‘Country-of-the-Smile’.
Andrew – I have read your articles and find them intriguing. My question to you is; how many of the thousands of protestors do you think are aware that the ultimate aim of the protests is what you outline; preventing the succession from occurring? Are they all puppets to a task master?
Now thats an interesting comment from Vichai N, Ive been with newmandala since 2009 and actually argued with Vichai N in quite manh occasion to the point where I think he intentionally talked none-sense to make the other side look bad.
“At about 20.00 I walked towards the stage entry, when a small bomb was thrown from the University over the fence into Rajamangala Stadium, shattering the windshield of a car parked inside the stadium area. I saw smoke wafting from the impact area.”
I don’t believe this bombing was a random act of violence by students. It is more likely that this was one of several planned, purposeful violent acts of terror designed to instill fear and incite rioting and chaos, and was carried out by paid professionals with a knowledge of explosives, in the employ of the wealthy hidden backers of Suthep and the PDRC.
Call me paranoid, but remember that Suthep was the former DSI head, and he still has his contacts among the military. Also remember that someone gave the order for the military snipers to shoot many people on May 19, 2010, after the UDD redshirts had already called an end to their protest.
Personally, I’d like to see people debating the merits of ‘half-way house’ (my term) democracy as proposed by Mark Twain in his story ‘The Curious Republic of Gondour’ without any knee-jerk reaction from the ‘Two legs bad, four legs good’ crowd.
The reason Thaksin is identified with corruption when in fact it is a systemic issue, and the explanation for how a crook like Suthep Thaugsuban can be the front-man for an anti-corruption protest movement, is that concepts like corruption and the р╕Бр╕ер╕╡р╕вр╕╕р╕Д are defined narrowly in terms of succession – and specifically Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn – in 21st century Thailand.
For the Yellow side, it’s a battle to prevent a corrupt monarch ruling Thailand. This is the key to understanding what is going on.
Here in Singapore, we’ve been inundated with statements like this: the riot was spontaneous, there is no evidence that it had anything to do with working conditions, everyone keep calm. Prof. Singh’s post seems to be of this order. And it’s not wrong, but it does beg the question of proximate and ultimate causes. The proximate cause here was indeed the accident. The worker who was killed was drunk and was kicked off of his dormitory bus and then run over by it. This sparked the tensions in the area and led to what happened. But this doesn’t address the ultimate causes, what allowed the area to be such a tinderbox. I don’t believe the “alcohol” idea floated around – that doesn’t explain why, for instance, police cars and ambulances were attacked, why this sort of thing doesn’t happen at the (Thai) Golden Mile (Thai workers, unlike South Asian workers, have a particular base wage), or in the other foreign worker hangout places (in Jurong, the above-mentioned spots, and, indeed, alchohol-fueled Clarke Quay).
The questions to explore here are:
1) Do working conditions lead to a sense of resentment or alienation amongst the workers?
2) Did this have anything to do with the riot?
3) What is the long-term impact on Singapore?
With regards to 1), the answer is “probably yes.” There are a few groups here in Singapore that seek to address working conditions and a few books that also address these (I’m thinking specifically of Pattana’s р╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Бр╕ер╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щ). This is about state policies and labor laws (no minimum wage, etc), but it’s also about a feeling of being exploited by employers: co-workers who are cheated of compensation for injury, contracts that one gets here in Singapore that are very different from those that one signed back home, etc. The anger directed at the state might be partially misdirected, lumping in state agencies with employers, but this feeling of resentment cannot be denied.
2) How much did this anger contribute to the riot? This we don’t know without research, research that I haven’t done. This is where the PAP, Straits Times, and other statements about how “we don’t know the causes [so stop speculating]” come in and are – technically, and for right now – correct.
3) The impact on Singapore: I don’t see the PAP suddenly going around and allowing unions (as much as I might like to). Rather, they seem to be trying to keep a lid on the impact of the riot on Singaporeans – specifically the xenophobia that this has engendered amongst Singaporeans – xenophobia that has a voice amongst anti-PAP groups. (For examples, see the twitter hashtag #littleindiariots for some nasty ones, or the Real Singapore website for some less nasty ones). In that sense, I think the riots are another blow to the PAP’s legitimacy amongst the Singaporean poor, and one that reveals some disturbing trends underneath the surface here.
Finally, in response to tocharian, Singaporean professors are a diverse bunch. We don’t (all) just sit around and sing the praises of the Lee family.
I agree that it would be counter-productive for members of the Untermensch to be associated with the protest itself. I think one possibly useful thing we could do collectively would be to put together a background briefing on some of the issues that are repeatedly raised by the anti-democracy camp. For example, I have a little collection of readings refuting the ‘paying for votes’ cliche, including a couple of statements by senior members of the DP. Other examples would be the scope of Article 7, the history of the present constitution etc.
If one looks at riots, it is always some immediate precipitating factor that trigers them — a brawl, and killing in a bar or brothel. This is true whether we are talking about ethnic riots in Kalimantan, or in Ghana. It is therefore very tempting to say a riot is caused by very localized, idiosyncratic causes. This would be very wrong. The deeper causes — read Horowitz — must relate to the social structure, social alienation, group worth in society, and a host of psychological factors. Being drunk (if indeed that was the case) can be a trigger but not an explanation of the motivations in rioting. We really need to consider closely the enormous work done on rioting and obtain a broader perspective. At the minimum, we need to get into the minds of Indian workers in Singapore and their social and psychological understanding of their situation.
This is obviously a “damage control” propaganda piece written by a pseudo-intellectual upper class citizen of Singapore. Stylistically, it reminds me of similar articles in The Global Times (CPC mouthpiece) about any social disharmony in China. Singaporean professors are not what they used to be!
Truth hurts, tocharian. People cannot handle it. One would rather wallow in made-up paradise of one’s choice. Realty is a bit of a nuisance really.
Incidentally lying and cheating hurts the liar and cheater as well. Lying- the prime modus oprandi of the today’s world of diplomatic-s, governmental people and “media” people at least since the times of World’s Original as well as Most Prolific and Most Successful Liar Eddy Barneys, inventor of Lying Profession, immensely respected in today’s upside down world.
Hence global shortage of narcotics even though Than Shwe/ Thein Sein headed narcotic production has increased about ten fold since Ne Win’s times in spite of the sky-full of praise of these Sit-tut guys by UNODC and DEA!
I cannot help but wonder if conditions and behaviours would be different if foreign workers were able to bring their families along (eventually) to Singapore. The presence of one’s family us a stabilizing influence that would discourage behaviours like alcoholism and loitering.
Of course in doing this we would have to admit that many foreign workers invariably choose to stay in the country where they work.
This is untrue: ‘many of the Indian workers were under the influence of alcohol also contributed to the mob behaviour’. Maybe the writer needs to protect his employment and is willing to lie?
Did you read the article? Nick want to show the real situation inside Rajchamakara Stadium , so it’s no need to talk about Corruption, Vote buying…..please understand…
and
Are you sure that Suthep and Apisit never VOTE buying???? they are pure like angel??
Last 2 years, when Democrat party was government where are you? not come to protest them??
I wonder if it is an accident that the following sentence is drafted in such a peculiar style, “The riots had nothing to do with the working conditions of the Indian foreign workers or workers of other nationalities in Singapore but sparked by what transpired in ‘Little India’ from the time the accident occurred till it was brought under control.” I also find the picture included w the entry to be remarkable. Thank you for your contribution.
Tocharian, for some reason there aint a reply button to hit on your reply. Yes, there is admittedly a sort of “white supremacy” mentality among the local Singaporeans here. There always have been this mentality since the colonial times. However even this is changing slowly. Nonetheless, while part of this disparity in treatment can be attributed to the bizarre “white supremacy” mentality, I posit that part of this is also because the caucasians tend to be in executive jobs. Should the jobs between a caucasian and a SEAsian be reversed, it is my prediction that thing might turn out quite differently. This also speaks that Singapore is generally quite a materialistic/corporate country, although Singapore needs the lower end jobs which are equally important to be filled. Yet I wonder if the same can be said of other countries. After all, our laws apply equally to all. It’s just that the perception of local Singaporeans will differ if it applies to a caucasian as opposed to a SEAsian. Of course this isnt ideal, but I wonder if the same applies to other countries. There is bound to be some prejudices when interacting with people of different nationalities. However, it is highly arguable that the different local races treat each other with a general sense of mutual respect, despite our individual peculiarities. Therefore it is more of a situation of how we treat foreigners, as opposed to racial/ethnic tensions. There are no refugees in Singapore, most academic experts wont exactly categorise it as a Western liberal democracy in the first place.
I appreciate your desire to achieve an outcome that is inclusive and positive for all Thai people. But you do yourself an injustice when you try to tell others ‘you know nothing about………”.
With all due respect Udi Udi, you have no idea what other people know and don’t know about our country. This was a report about a single protest site so of course it is not a comprehensive history of the political crisis in our country.
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Thailand’s 2013 protests in comparison
I discovered your website today, and have the feeling it may be educational for me to understand the Thai. Right now, I’m angry, frustrated at the selfdestroying mentality of the Thai. Ever since 2006 these two main blocks oppose eachother and apparently no-one tries to reach out, to compromise. This week is/was Mandela’s week. I think Thai should learn from him and one quote in particular: “IF YOU WANT TO MAKE PEACE WITH YOUR ENEMY, YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH YOUR ENEMY. THEN HE BECOMES YOUR PARTNER.”
Hopefully the Thai learn to seek win-win solutions, otherwise these two blocks will divide the country more and more and it may escalate to extremes in this (once) ‘Country-of-the-Smile’.
Thaksin’s supporters care about corruption too
Andrew – I have read your articles and find them intriguing. My question to you is; how many of the thousands of protestors do you think are aware that the ultimate aim of the protests is what you outline; preventing the succession from occurring? Are they all puppets to a task master?
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
Now thats an interesting comment from Vichai N, Ive been with newmandala since 2009 and actually argued with Vichai N in quite manh occasion to the point where I think he intentionally talked none-sense to make the other side look bad.
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
“At about 20.00 I walked towards the stage entry, when a small bomb was thrown from the University over the fence into Rajamangala Stadium, shattering the windshield of a car parked inside the stadium area. I saw smoke wafting from the impact area.”
I don’t believe this bombing was a random act of violence by students. It is more likely that this was one of several planned, purposeful violent acts of terror designed to instill fear and incite rioting and chaos, and was carried out by paid professionals with a knowledge of explosives, in the employ of the wealthy hidden backers of Suthep and the PDRC.
Call me paranoid, but remember that Suthep was the former DSI head, and he still has his contacts among the military. Also remember that someone gave the order for the military snipers to shoot many people on May 19, 2010, after the UDD redshirts had already called an end to their protest.
Thailand’s stark choice
Personally, I’d like to see people debating the merits of ‘half-way house’ (my term) democracy as proposed by Mark Twain in his story ‘The Curious Republic of Gondour’ without any knee-jerk reaction from the ‘Two legs bad, four legs good’ crowd.
Thaksin’s supporters care about corruption too
The reason Thaksin is identified with corruption when in fact it is a systemic issue, and the explanation for how a crook like Suthep Thaugsuban can be the front-man for an anti-corruption protest movement, is that concepts like corruption and the р╕Бр╕ер╕╡р╕вр╕╕р╕Д are defined narrowly in terms of succession – and specifically Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn – in 21st century Thailand.
For the Yellow side, it’s a battle to prevent a corrupt monarch ruling Thailand. This is the key to understanding what is going on.
The Little India riot – another view
Here in Singapore, we’ve been inundated with statements like this: the riot was spontaneous, there is no evidence that it had anything to do with working conditions, everyone keep calm. Prof. Singh’s post seems to be of this order. And it’s not wrong, but it does beg the question of proximate and ultimate causes. The proximate cause here was indeed the accident. The worker who was killed was drunk and was kicked off of his dormitory bus and then run over by it. This sparked the tensions in the area and led to what happened. But this doesn’t address the ultimate causes, what allowed the area to be such a tinderbox. I don’t believe the “alcohol” idea floated around – that doesn’t explain why, for instance, police cars and ambulances were attacked, why this sort of thing doesn’t happen at the (Thai) Golden Mile (Thai workers, unlike South Asian workers, have a particular base wage), or in the other foreign worker hangout places (in Jurong, the above-mentioned spots, and, indeed, alchohol-fueled Clarke Quay).
The questions to explore here are:
1) Do working conditions lead to a sense of resentment or alienation amongst the workers?
2) Did this have anything to do with the riot?
3) What is the long-term impact on Singapore?
With regards to 1), the answer is “probably yes.” There are a few groups here in Singapore that seek to address working conditions and a few books that also address these (I’m thinking specifically of Pattana’s р╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Бр╕ер╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щ). This is about state policies and labor laws (no minimum wage, etc), but it’s also about a feeling of being exploited by employers: co-workers who are cheated of compensation for injury, contracts that one gets here in Singapore that are very different from those that one signed back home, etc. The anger directed at the state might be partially misdirected, lumping in state agencies with employers, but this feeling of resentment cannot be denied.
2) How much did this anger contribute to the riot? This we don’t know without research, research that I haven’t done. This is where the PAP, Straits Times, and other statements about how “we don’t know the causes [so stop speculating]” come in and are – technically, and for right now – correct.
3) The impact on Singapore: I don’t see the PAP suddenly going around and allowing unions (as much as I might like to). Rather, they seem to be trying to keep a lid on the impact of the riot on Singaporeans – specifically the xenophobia that this has engendered amongst Singaporeans – xenophobia that has a voice amongst anti-PAP groups. (For examples, see the twitter hashtag #littleindiariots for some nasty ones, or the Real Singapore website for some less nasty ones). In that sense, I think the riots are another blow to the PAP’s legitimacy amongst the Singaporean poor, and one that reveals some disturbing trends underneath the surface here.
Finally, in response to tocharian, Singaporean professors are a diverse bunch. We don’t (all) just sit around and sing the praises of the Lee family.
Assembly for the Defence of Democracy
I agree that it would be counter-productive for members of the Untermensch to be associated with the protest itself. I think one possibly useful thing we could do collectively would be to put together a background briefing on some of the issues that are repeatedly raised by the anti-democracy camp. For example, I have a little collection of readings refuting the ‘paying for votes’ cliche, including a couple of statements by senior members of the DP. Other examples would be the scope of Article 7, the history of the present constitution etc.
Assembly for the Defence of Democracy
Voice of reason at last, Ive been waiting for Nidhi to show some gut and he finaly did.
The Little India riot – another view
You want to know to truth instead of conjectures from your educated background?
Remove your stifling and repressive laws and see what happens on the streets, I dare you.
The Little India riot – another view
If one looks at riots, it is always some immediate precipitating factor that trigers them — a brawl, and killing in a bar or brothel. This is true whether we are talking about ethnic riots in Kalimantan, or in Ghana. It is therefore very tempting to say a riot is caused by very localized, idiosyncratic causes. This would be very wrong. The deeper causes — read Horowitz — must relate to the social structure, social alienation, group worth in society, and a host of psychological factors. Being drunk (if indeed that was the case) can be a trigger but not an explanation of the motivations in rioting. We really need to consider closely the enormous work done on rioting and obtain a broader perspective. At the minimum, we need to get into the minds of Indian workers in Singapore and their social and psychological understanding of their situation.
The Little India riot – another view
And you are one to judge what is and what is not “pseudo-Intellectualism” ?
The Little India riot – another view
This is obviously a “damage control” propaganda piece written by a pseudo-intellectual upper class citizen of Singapore. Stylistically, it reminds me of similar articles in The Global Times (CPC mouthpiece) about any social disharmony in China. Singaporean professors are not what they used to be!
Myanmar’s arms purchases are a problem
Truth hurts, tocharian. People cannot handle it. One would rather wallow in made-up paradise of one’s choice. Realty is a bit of a nuisance really.
Incidentally lying and cheating hurts the liar and cheater as well. Lying- the prime modus oprandi of the today’s world of diplomatic-s, governmental people and “media” people at least since the times of World’s Original as well as Most Prolific and Most Successful Liar Eddy Barneys, inventor of Lying Profession, immensely respected in today’s upside down world.
Hence global shortage of narcotics even though Than Shwe/ Thein Sein headed narcotic production has increased about ten fold since Ne Win’s times in spite of the sky-full of praise of these Sit-tut guys by UNODC and DEA!
The Little India riot – another view
I cannot help but wonder if conditions and behaviours would be different if foreign workers were able to bring their families along (eventually) to Singapore. The presence of one’s family us a stabilizing influence that would discourage behaviours like alcoholism and loitering.
Of course in doing this we would have to admit that many foreign workers invariably choose to stay in the country where they work.
The Little India riot – another view
This is untrue: ‘many of the Indian workers were under the influence of alcohol also contributed to the mob behaviour’. Maybe the writer needs to protect his employment and is willing to lie?
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
Did you read the article? Nick want to show the real situation inside Rajchamakara Stadium , so it’s no need to talk about Corruption, Vote buying…..please understand…
and
Are you sure that Suthep and Apisit never VOTE buying???? they are pure like angel??
Last 2 years, when Democrat party was government where are you? not come to protest them??
The Little India riot – another view
I wonder if it is an accident that the following sentence is drafted in such a peculiar style, “The riots had nothing to do with the working conditions of the Indian foreign workers or workers of other nationalities in Singapore but sparked by what transpired in ‘Little India’ from the time the accident occurred till it was brought under control.” I also find the picture included w the entry to be remarkable. Thank you for your contribution.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
Tocharian, for some reason there aint a reply button to hit on your reply. Yes, there is admittedly a sort of “white supremacy” mentality among the local Singaporeans here. There always have been this mentality since the colonial times. However even this is changing slowly. Nonetheless, while part of this disparity in treatment can be attributed to the bizarre “white supremacy” mentality, I posit that part of this is also because the caucasians tend to be in executive jobs. Should the jobs between a caucasian and a SEAsian be reversed, it is my prediction that thing might turn out quite differently. This also speaks that Singapore is generally quite a materialistic/corporate country, although Singapore needs the lower end jobs which are equally important to be filled. Yet I wonder if the same can be said of other countries. After all, our laws apply equally to all. It’s just that the perception of local Singaporeans will differ if it applies to a caucasian as opposed to a SEAsian. Of course this isnt ideal, but I wonder if the same applies to other countries. There is bound to be some prejudices when interacting with people of different nationalities. However, it is highly arguable that the different local races treat each other with a general sense of mutual respect, despite our individual peculiarities. Therefore it is more of a situation of how we treat foreigners, as opposed to racial/ethnic tensions. There are no refugees in Singapore, most academic experts wont exactly categorise it as a Western liberal democracy in the first place.
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
Hi Udi Udi,
I appreciate your desire to achieve an outcome that is inclusive and positive for all Thai people. But you do yourself an injustice when you try to tell others ‘you know nothing about………”.
With all due respect Udi Udi, you have no idea what other people know and don’t know about our country. This was a report about a single protest site so of course it is not a comprehensive history of the political crisis in our country.