If, as you say, this was the “last gasp” of the TS empire why didn’t he send the Red Shirts onto the streets where all the fascists were?
Why host a rally inside a stadium several miles from the fascist protest site?
I also don’t get the “bussed” comment – how were they supposed to get to Bangkok, walk?
Why no recognition from yourself that multiple sources all state that it was the “students” – infiltrated by core fascist activists – who were the main provocateurs of the violence?
Are only Thai fascists allowed to gather in Bangkok?
How did all the Southern Thais get to Bangkok to protest? Did they walk or did they travel by bus?
Why can’t the Red Shirts “be there”? Do you deem them to no longer have the right to peaceful assembly?
Surely by rallying far away from the main protest they were showing their intent NOT to be involved in any fighting?
Amy, Amy, Amy, calm down, please. I have been to Orchard Road innumerable times, and unless you are older than 55, I have been to what existed in the place that is now Orchard Road when Singapore was a mosquito-infested collection of Chinese Shop Houses and traditional Malay houses, probably well before you were born. I think nobody disputes Singapore’s economic progress, and nobody is asking Singapore to have five or six official languages: Bahasa Melayu, Mandarin (Guoyu or Putonghua if you originate from the Mainland), Tamil and English are sufficient.
And nobody, I think, is demanding Singapore hire more foreigners because as any independent nation has the right to give preferential treatment to its own citizens, I see no reason why Singapore shouldn’t as well.
I have seen plenty in Singapore. I have cousins from Singapore. I was in Singapore when only Malay was widely spoken, when I was a child and the British influence could still be seen and felt. Singapore is no better, or worse, than anywhere else, just a bit more affluent and a bit more crowded than most places.
“Everyone has a right to their opinion, just not the facts” as the famous saying goes. The facts are that in the interest of financial expediency, Singapore has sacrificed something of value: And what it has sacrificed is the physical, social and linguistic manifestations of traditional Chinese, Indian and Malay culture which have been replaced by shopping malls, high-rise buildings, artificial fountains and greenery, full internet capability, and micromanagement of a degree that would make any American CEO drool. In it’s drive to make Singapore a model of economic success, the PAP (or the Lee family, as they really mean the same thing) has forgotten one important Taoist lesson, which is, while respecting your elders, remember to respect your origins.
Ironically, in his emphatic determination to modernize Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew forgot the one really important thing that made Singapore special, which I saw in my youth,
before you were probably born, and that was
a multicultural melting pot of different people all free to express themselves, linguistically and culturally, through their own traditional practices and beliefs. In the process of modernizing Singapore, those traditional practices have, at best, been homogenized, and at worst, almost completely eradicated. Singapore may well be better off for it, economically, but it is certainly not, culturally.
In fact, even being born in Singapore does not necessarily make one an expert, but one who has lived an equal amount of time in, and out, of Singapore provides a comparative perspective on Singapore, as well as other countries, that simply living solely in Singapore for the duration of one’s life, cannot possibly provide.
I do not say that Singapore is the only country to sacrifice tradition for modernity, America has done it, Europe has done it, Japan has done it, and China is in the process of doing it. But the ‘Singapore Model’ does serve as a reminder of what can happen when affluence and modernity progress faster than political and social progress. Trade offs are inevitable; the question that each Singaporean can, and should, ask themselves is whether the sacrifices have been well-worth it, or whether too much may have been sacrificed.
How sad that after reading such a heartbreaking and beautifully written account of an important episode in Thailand’s unfolding tragedy, you can only come up with such an inadequate response. Many people on all sides in this story have blood on their hands, and the few impartial voices like Nick Nostitz trying to tell the story are vilified and attacked. The contrast between Nick’s article, which captures brilliantly the complexity of the situation and the terrible human suffering of those caught up in it, and your own crude and simplistic response, speaks volumes.
It’s an unfortunate event to have happened and something that could have been avoided. The incident was due to a deadly mix of disgruntled foreign workers, mob mentality, and the effect of alcohol.
Nevertheless, there’s no point crying over spilled milk and it’s time for introspection.
very interesting anlysis, I cannot comment on the situation in Singapore, but one response on the workers from India and China being cheaper than Indonesion and others is very telling. The most important point I think is that the onus is on the government and the private sector to provied good working conditions, yet they seem to be failing badly, like many other countries around the world who exploit workers as if they are aliens, not people from vulnerable families with limited opportunities.
@ White Mask- I guess you also agree that the 90+ killed in 2010 is also “more blood on the hands of Thaksin Shinawatra”? Of course the people who ordered the killing and the actual murders are blameless. And before you give me that men in black bs justification- I will be the first one to say, yes there are some evidence of men in black provoking violence- does that mean it is justified to gun down protestors anyway?
The illustrious Nick Nostitz returns! Riot journalism is clearly your calling. Even not pursuing it you end up in the middle of it all. Unbelievable.
What a heartbreaking story. The picture of the very young widow and daughter, the international symbol of the consequences of violence, spoke the most.
Nick, I hope you have a bullet proof vest and helmet when you report from the front lines.
“It would be naive for anyone to believe that they would have had equal benefits and remuneration as the Singaporean workers.” You have got to be kidding me, did you really just post that in a public forum?!?!? Please don’t breed.
Thank you, Nick, for this important documentation of the events in and around Ramkhamhaeng & the Stadium Saturday Night Nov. 30th. For being willing to risk your own life and limb so that the true story is told. My heart goes out to the people killed and the widows, children and families.
Great insider report but there was absolutely no reason the Red Shirts had to be bussed down to Bangkok at this time, except as the last dying gasp of a corrupt Shinawatra empire.
Reminds me strongly of the last days of the inept Chavalit regime, when him and his dealer-wife Pankrua were bussing Isaan folk daily to Bangkok to prop up what had become an international joke of a government after the collapse of the baht.
Did the Red Shirts have to be there? No. More blood on the hands of Thaksin Shinawatra
“It is the only place in Singapore where, by sheer weight of numbers alone, the pedestrian is king.”
You obviously have not been to orchard road. You say what you see, and there are plenty of things you have not seen in Singapore. So who are you to say such comments about our country?
You say there are so many language such as Nepali, bangali etc? And yet Tamil is the only official one?
Have you thought of how much language that schools have to reach if they were to make it an official language? Are there so many teachers to teach these languages?
Hire more foreigners? We simply do not have anymore space. Have you then seen our public transport on peak hours? Weekends? Have you seen how often our expressway gets jam? Even if it’s just a vehicle breakdown?
You cannot use what you have seen in your own country to judge and comment things about us. There are a lot of things that you simply have not seen. A trip to Singapore does not make you an “expert” on the way we live.
Because Singapore will have to pay Malaysians and Indonesians more than they would get in their own countries, or in Thailand or in the Philippines, and Singapore may not want to pay what Malaysians and Indonesian expect, yet some Mainland Chinese and Indians are willing to settle for less. Thus, Indonesian domestic and construction workers head for Malaysia, where they are paid less than in Singapore but more than they would get back home, or they head for the rich Arab Gulf States where they are paid more than what they would get in Malaysia or Singapore, but are also often treated worse than back home.
There is an ongoing spat between Malaysia and Indonesia, with Malaysians frequently (and not entirely accurately) claiming that the bulk of crime in Malaysia is caused by Indonesian laborers; Indonesia retorts that
affluent Malaysians, with Indonesian domestic
workers and home care helpers, mistreat and sometimes abuse their Indonesian helpers, which is sometimes true but cannot be generalized to all affluent Malaysians that
have assisted help at home.
Excellent article – however, I do believe one consequence of the riots has yet to be discussed. Will there be a backlash on the local Indians?
It is a case very similar to the terrorist issue we handled a few years back. Although we (as Singaporeans) knew there was no connection whatsoever with the local Muslims and the terrorist groups, there was still quite a bit of tension present in society. This is definitely a larger scale as compared to the riots, but still comparable, I believe.
Here’s hoping that the Little India riots would not have such consequences. We really have come too far as a nation for instances like these to disrupt our status quo.
Thailand’s stark choice: Considering their experience with Thaksin’s style of democracy (as recently personified by 310-Thaksin-servants-adamantly-pretending-to-be-legislators), should the Thai people go along with the Thaksin/Yingluck deception, yes indeed it is a deception, that the Thai political sytem still works (for the Shinawatra that is, and damn the consequences to Thailand). And the very violent hatred inspired UDD/Red Shirts are Thaksin’s democracy enforcers, if the Thai people won’t toe the Thaksin/Yingluck deception.
I agree with you that klloh’s optimism about the response times of emergency services may be misplaced. And yes, I believe we Singaporeans are to be blamed for the reasons that you have mentioned.
This simultaneously also refutes the author’s veiled suggestions that the response timing of the emergency services were due to discriminatory practices practised by the paramedics.
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Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
If, as you say, this was the “last gasp” of the TS empire why didn’t he send the Red Shirts onto the streets where all the fascists were?
Why host a rally inside a stadium several miles from the fascist protest site?
I also don’t get the “bussed” comment – how were they supposed to get to Bangkok, walk?
Why no recognition from yourself that multiple sources all state that it was the “students” – infiltrated by core fascist activists – who were the main provocateurs of the violence?
Are only Thai fascists allowed to gather in Bangkok?
How did all the Southern Thais get to Bangkok to protest? Did they walk or did they travel by bus?
Why can’t the Red Shirts “be there”? Do you deem them to no longer have the right to peaceful assembly?
Surely by rallying far away from the main protest they were showing their intent NOT to be involved in any fighting?
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
Amy, Amy, Amy, calm down, please. I have been to Orchard Road innumerable times, and unless you are older than 55, I have been to what existed in the place that is now Orchard Road when Singapore was a mosquito-infested collection of Chinese Shop Houses and traditional Malay houses, probably well before you were born. I think nobody disputes Singapore’s economic progress, and nobody is asking Singapore to have five or six official languages: Bahasa Melayu, Mandarin (Guoyu or Putonghua if you originate from the Mainland), Tamil and English are sufficient.
And nobody, I think, is demanding Singapore hire more foreigners because as any independent nation has the right to give preferential treatment to its own citizens, I see no reason why Singapore shouldn’t as well.
I have seen plenty in Singapore. I have cousins from Singapore. I was in Singapore when only Malay was widely spoken, when I was a child and the British influence could still be seen and felt. Singapore is no better, or worse, than anywhere else, just a bit more affluent and a bit more crowded than most places.
“Everyone has a right to their opinion, just not the facts” as the famous saying goes. The facts are that in the interest of financial expediency, Singapore has sacrificed something of value: And what it has sacrificed is the physical, social and linguistic manifestations of traditional Chinese, Indian and Malay culture which have been replaced by shopping malls, high-rise buildings, artificial fountains and greenery, full internet capability, and micromanagement of a degree that would make any American CEO drool. In it’s drive to make Singapore a model of economic success, the PAP (or the Lee family, as they really mean the same thing) has forgotten one important Taoist lesson, which is, while respecting your elders, remember to respect your origins.
Ironically, in his emphatic determination to modernize Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew forgot the one really important thing that made Singapore special, which I saw in my youth,
before you were probably born, and that was
a multicultural melting pot of different people all free to express themselves, linguistically and culturally, through their own traditional practices and beliefs. In the process of modernizing Singapore, those traditional practices have, at best, been homogenized, and at worst, almost completely eradicated. Singapore may well be better off for it, economically, but it is certainly not, culturally.
In fact, even being born in Singapore does not necessarily make one an expert, but one who has lived an equal amount of time in, and out, of Singapore provides a comparative perspective on Singapore, as well as other countries, that simply living solely in Singapore for the duration of one’s life, cannot possibly provide.
I do not say that Singapore is the only country to sacrifice tradition for modernity, America has done it, Europe has done it, Japan has done it, and China is in the process of doing it. But the ‘Singapore Model’ does serve as a reminder of what can happen when affluence and modernity progress faster than political and social progress. Trade offs are inevitable; the question that each Singaporean can, and should, ask themselves is whether the sacrifices have been well-worth it, or whether too much may have been sacrificed.
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
Now that is some excellent, gritty, street journalism.
Thank you Nick, and stay safe.
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
How sad that after reading such a heartbreaking and beautifully written account of an important episode in Thailand’s unfolding tragedy, you can only come up with such an inadequate response. Many people on all sides in this story have blood on their hands, and the few impartial voices like Nick Nostitz trying to tell the story are vilified and attacked. The contrast between Nick’s article, which captures brilliantly the complexity of the situation and the terrible human suffering of those caught up in it, and your own crude and simplistic response, speaks volumes.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
Very well written article.
It’s an unfortunate event to have happened and something that could have been avoided. The incident was due to a deadly mix of disgruntled foreign workers, mob mentality, and the effect of alcohol.
Nevertheless, there’s no point crying over spilled milk and it’s time for introspection.
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
Thank you Nick for the good quality journalism, unlike that of the Thai mainstream.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
very interesting anlysis, I cannot comment on the situation in Singapore, but one response on the workers from India and China being cheaper than Indonesion and others is very telling. The most important point I think is that the onus is on the government and the private sector to provied good working conditions, yet they seem to be failing badly, like many other countries around the world who exploit workers as if they are aliens, not people from vulnerable families with limited opportunities.
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
@ White Mask- I guess you also agree that the 90+ killed in 2010 is also “more blood on the hands of Thaksin Shinawatra”? Of course the people who ordered the killing and the actual murders are blameless. And before you give me that men in black bs justification- I will be the first one to say, yes there are some evidence of men in black provoking violence- does that mean it is justified to gun down protestors anyway?
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
The illustrious Nick Nostitz returns! Riot journalism is clearly your calling. Even not pursuing it you end up in the middle of it all. Unbelievable.
What a heartbreaking story. The picture of the very young widow and daughter, the international symbol of the consequences of violence, spoke the most.
Nick, I hope you have a bullet proof vest and helmet when you report from the front lines.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
“It would be naive for anyone to believe that they would have had equal benefits and remuneration as the Singaporean workers.” You have got to be kidding me, did you really just post that in a public forum?!?!? Please don’t breed.
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
Thank you, Nick, for this important documentation of the events in and around Ramkhamhaeng & the Stadium Saturday Night Nov. 30th. For being willing to risk your own life and limb so that the true story is told. My heart goes out to the people killed and the widows, children and families.
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
Great insider report but there was absolutely no reason the Red Shirts had to be bussed down to Bangkok at this time, except as the last dying gasp of a corrupt Shinawatra empire.
Reminds me strongly of the last days of the inept Chavalit regime, when him and his dealer-wife Pankrua were bussing Isaan folk daily to Bangkok to prop up what had become an international joke of a government after the collapse of the baht.
Did the Red Shirts have to be there? No. More blood on the hands of Thaksin Shinawatra
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
“It is the only place in Singapore where, by sheer weight of numbers alone, the pedestrian is king.”
You obviously have not been to orchard road. You say what you see, and there are plenty of things you have not seen in Singapore. So who are you to say such comments about our country?
You say there are so many language such as Nepali, bangali etc? And yet Tamil is the only official one?
Have you thought of how much language that schools have to reach if they were to make it an official language? Are there so many teachers to teach these languages?
Hire more foreigners? We simply do not have anymore space. Have you then seen our public transport on peak hours? Weekends? Have you seen how often our expressway gets jam? Even if it’s just a vehicle breakdown?
You cannot use what you have seen in your own country to judge and comment things about us. There are a lot of things that you simply have not seen. A trip to Singapore does not make you an “expert” on the way we live.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
Because Singapore will have to pay Malaysians and Indonesians more than they would get in their own countries, or in Thailand or in the Philippines, and Singapore may not want to pay what Malaysians and Indonesian expect, yet some Mainland Chinese and Indians are willing to settle for less. Thus, Indonesian domestic and construction workers head for Malaysia, where they are paid less than in Singapore but more than they would get back home, or they head for the rich Arab Gulf States where they are paid more than what they would get in Malaysia or Singapore, but are also often treated worse than back home.
There is an ongoing spat between Malaysia and Indonesia, with Malaysians frequently (and not entirely accurately) claiming that the bulk of crime in Malaysia is caused by Indonesian laborers; Indonesia retorts that
affluent Malaysians, with Indonesian domestic
workers and home care helpers, mistreat and sometimes abuse their Indonesian helpers, which is sometimes true but cannot be generalized to all affluent Malaysians that
have assisted help at home.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
Excellent article – however, I do believe one consequence of the riots has yet to be discussed. Will there be a backlash on the local Indians?
It is a case very similar to the terrorist issue we handled a few years back. Although we (as Singaporeans) knew there was no connection whatsoever with the local Muslims and the terrorist groups, there was still quite a bit of tension present in society. This is definitely a larger scale as compared to the riots, but still comparable, I believe.
Here’s hoping that the Little India riots would not have such consequences. We really have come too far as a nation for instances like these to disrupt our status quo.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
Excellent point.
November rain for democracy in Thailand
That’s not what the article says. There is a comma after (UDD), … as you pasted, and then the words ‘… the CMD is democratic in neither ….etc
Thailand’s stark choice
Thailand’s stark choice: Considering their experience with Thaksin’s style of democracy (as recently personified by 310-Thaksin-servants-adamantly-pretending-to-be-legislators), should the Thai people go along with the Thaksin/Yingluck deception, yes indeed it is a deception, that the Thai political sytem still works (for the Shinawatra that is, and damn the consequences to Thailand). And the very violent hatred inspired UDD/Red Shirts are Thaksin’s democracy enforcers, if the Thai people won’t toe the Thaksin/Yingluck deception.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
Wow, inciteful article that matches my feelings about the situation. Thanks for such a thoughtful analysis.
Stop and think: Lessons from Little India
G’day KC Loh,
I agree with you that klloh’s optimism about the response times of emergency services may be misplaced. And yes, I believe we Singaporeans are to be blamed for the reasons that you have mentioned.
This simultaneously also refutes the author’s veiled suggestions that the response timing of the emergency services were due to discriminatory practices practised by the paramedics.