Fred, I do think that its easy for you to take the moral high ground and criticize from afar. As for me, I live here.
I think that it’s you have missed the point of why people are against the rice pledging scheme and why it’s a failure. No one is against fair allocation of wealth. But it’s not getting into the people’s hands.
Flawed? What an enormous understatement. Do you know how much money has been pumped into and is kept pumping for this rice scheme (that benefits mostly thaksin sister, no yingluck but yaowapa) to warehouse millions of tons of high-priced rice that will never be sold? That’s not allocation that throwing money into a pit.
No one compared sustained growth to deaths; that’s your take on it. The deaths of Muslims at Krue Sae, of 85 innocent Muslims stacked like logs onto trucks; 2,500 deaths in the war on drugs; protesters killed for demonstrating against a dam; needless deaths in government run hospitals because of inadequate planning in the B30 health care and etc. You blindly state a one-sided argument without reference to the sins of those you support.
Let’s not forget that even though the Democrats did not win the last election; they did come into power through a parliamentary vote. A vote that reflected the majority of the electorate through their representatives who voted for the Democrats. And that resulted in the infamous CentralWorld clean-up. Because thaksin and his gang could not accept that they lost power. So they egged on the red shirts to riot and arson and hooliganism.
Actually it is irrelevant what you think, since I am a Thai entitled to vote. NO one has ever stated or requested that power be returned to the King. That’s all you, That’s your mentality and deep-seated bias. The monkee on your back.
Scep, puea thai received 14 million votes, the Democrats 11 million. Thailand has a population of close to 70 million. Would you say that 14 million is the majority or even that 25 million is? Even if we count the votes given to the smaller parties, that’d be what, another 2 – 3 million? Is 28 million the majority?
Coming back to that. Were the quantum of votes of the smaller parties to be added to Democrats then you could say that it was even; as the total electorate gave half their votes to puea thai and the remaining half to others.
I guess it was ok in your view, that: the red shirted proxies of thaksin attacked the ASEAN meeting in Pattya; placed gas truck bombs in neighborhoods; ran rampant in Bangkok burning tires and buses; intimidated the people of Bangkok with their crudeness; AND a year later closed down central Bangkok; ran riot in Kok Wua; and burnt down CentralWorld.
It was in my view the inflammatory and egging on of the clueless (but paid), red shirts, that cause the violence, destruction, and deaths. The protesters were politely asked to leave many times; what they did was to barricade the area. The harshness in clearing the area cannot be excused; but the authorities had experience and were weary of the violence and hooliganism prone red shirts and their leaders stemming from Pattya to Bangkok arson to Kok Wua.
The guilt does not lie with the army or Aphisit/Suthep alone; the deaths were caused also by the intractability of thaksin and his surrogates. They benefited not the people they professed to represent.
Yes I am the notdisappointed that you sparred with way back then. And it seems you have the same mindset (albeit with good intentions) that many foreigners have concerning Thailand. And it’s boring to have to repeatedly write in a way that will allow you to see another side of the picture.
I find that many well-intentioned farangs have a certain snobbish attitude when it comes to democracy. A democracy that they have grown up with and instinctively accept. A democracy that is more-or-less balanced and fair to both the majority of the electorate and might I say, the minority. Your democracy does not reward your politicians with wealth for winning an election. Your democracy does not allow the majority to be above the law.
I found an article that I think is fair and balanced. Perhaps if you and others have an open mind then you might learn something. But I think that bernd weber will not, as he is a die-heart thaksin loyalist.
What I see and read from our well-intentioned foreign believers of the righteousness of democracy is that at the end of the day is: whoever has won the majority votes is allowed to govern. This is simplistic and naive. Perhaps in your own countries that may be the case. You blindly mouth democracy and democratic values but turn a blind eye to the undermining to those values by thaksin’s sister and his proxies.
All of you fail to recognize that the amnesty bill is farce. The amendment to Article 190 to allow collusion in the rich oil and gas fields in the Gulf of Thailand, as well as pushing through a non-transparent budget of Baht 2.2Trillion (and voting by proxy) is the most telling signal of the abuse of democracy for personal gain by thaksin and his surrogates.
Westerners want Thailand to have democracy and think that the electorate having elected thaksin’s proxies and his sister as PM; should let the majority govern. But what happens when the majority is used to create a tyranny of the majority and a democratic dictatorship. Is this the type of democracy that Westerners want?
What I see is a general bias and might I also say, racist bigotry in your posts. To be sure you’re all well-read individuals and like to pat each other on the back for witticism only you get (a small sign of the racist bigotry).
Some writers are so fixated on LM laws and a change to the Constitutional Monarchy, that they do not offer any practical solutions to the present undermining of democracy in Thailand. You think that voting and change to LM law will magically transform Thailand into the bastion of democracy.
Ain’t gonna happen. The majority of Thais are still living under the old culture of patronage and Sakdinar. Thais need education and honest people as standards to follow and look up to. Look at the recent voting for the amnesty bill and B2.2trillion (non-transparent)logistic budget; many puea thai parliamentarians did not votes themselves, but gave their ‘voting cards’ to another person to vote in their stead. Now, many of the red shirts said that there is nothing wrong to do so. And I guess it’s also alright and no big deal to our well-intentioned foreign friends since the puea thai party won the majority of the electorate, so they can do as they wish.
One thing that this review fails to make clear is the book’s remarkable effectiveness in vividly illustrating continuities between the Thailand of a century ago to that of “only yesterday”. It is highly reading for all interested in a clearer understanding of how the Thailand of today has emerged. An astonishingly rich work.
And how do you, Jim, define “definitely superior human beings”?
It seems Jim that you have nicely divided the human universe as either superior or inferior. And Jim himself would fall in which category, I am tempted to ask.
If anything, Mr Tibke underestimates what Nai Suthep’s recent antics suggest about the Democrat Party. It is clearly in terrible disarray: with no hope of winning elections, its links to the current leadership of the military shattered, and very possibly divided internally. It is rather stunning to watch this unfold.
The current situation in Bangkok is quite interesting in its contradictions. The constitutional court finds out that a change of constitution to reduce the number of appointed senators instead of elected, is not-constitutional. Students find out that the attempt to change the constitution is corruption and Suthep (who has quite a track record of corruption) with former Democrat Party MP (many of them local Chao Pho) try to save democracy by dissolving it. All use the symbols and places once used for struggles for democracy in their fight against increased popular political participation. They all seem to wish that the 310 are kicked out of parliament so that the democrat party will have again a majority.
Lee Kuan Yew writes in his memoirs that for the way to elect the party secretary of the PAP he used the election process of the pope as example. Suthep has probably learned from the Bolsheviks’. They knew that they would never be able to win an election, but were strong enough to destabilize the government in St. Petersburg. They used radical street protests of a small minority to kick out the government, and fill the seats themselves. Election were then postponed until the late 1980th. Now we can try to figure out whom Suthep tries to resemble. Certainly not Lenin and he does not have the beard of Stalin.
Glad to oblige, Vichai – A definition of “inferior human beings” might be “humans who are definitely not superior.” It is difficult for those of us who have witnessed the considerable advances of working-class folks under “Thaksinomics” to believe the hatred of the old-money/military elite for Thaksin is based on anything but resentment – resentment that rural and urban working-class folks are joining in on Thailand’s prosperity.
And Thaksin may or may not be economics-adept. But Thaksin’s extrajudicial killings bent was factual and deserve repeated mention less the Thais forget. And Thaksin’s carries an inexhaustable store of malice against those who demand that he serve his sentence and face all pending judicial issues.
[…] of its most heartfelt and valuable objectives. Unlike Thorn Pitidol, who wrote for New Mandala last week, I do not see the Amnesty Bill fiasco as an omen for “the end of the Red Shirts.” If anything, […]
If one is to believe Tibke, all Thai political figures, regardless of stripe, are decidedly inferior human beings. It would perhaps be better to focus on the reason why TRT/PPP/PT won elections – the vastly improved well-being of working-class Thais under Thaksin’s leadership. This business of portraying Thaksin as a mass-murderer is tiresome, and only intended to divert attention away from his economic successes.
Asia Books lists two books, ‘Who’s who in thailand politics 2013 (1st ed.)’, and ‘Who’s who in thailand 2013 (17 th ed.)’ – different ISBN numbers, same price. Same book? The NLA link lists the latter, with 414 pages.
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What is to be done in Thailand?
Fred, I do think that its easy for you to take the moral high ground and criticize from afar. As for me, I live here.
I think that it’s you have missed the point of why people are against the rice pledging scheme and why it’s a failure. No one is against fair allocation of wealth. But it’s not getting into the people’s hands.
Flawed? What an enormous understatement. Do you know how much money has been pumped into and is kept pumping for this rice scheme (that benefits mostly thaksin sister, no yingluck but yaowapa) to warehouse millions of tons of high-priced rice that will never be sold? That’s not allocation that throwing money into a pit.
No one compared sustained growth to deaths; that’s your take on it. The deaths of Muslims at Krue Sae, of 85 innocent Muslims stacked like logs onto trucks; 2,500 deaths in the war on drugs; protesters killed for demonstrating against a dam; needless deaths in government run hospitals because of inadequate planning in the B30 health care and etc. You blindly state a one-sided argument without reference to the sins of those you support.
Let’s not forget that even though the Democrats did not win the last election; they did come into power through a parliamentary vote. A vote that reflected the majority of the electorate through their representatives who voted for the Democrats. And that resulted in the infamous CentralWorld clean-up. Because thaksin and his gang could not accept that they lost power. So they egged on the red shirts to riot and arson and hooliganism.
Actually it is irrelevant what you think, since I am a Thai entitled to vote. NO one has ever stated or requested that power be returned to the King. That’s all you, That’s your mentality and deep-seated bias. The monkee on your back.
What is to be done in Thailand?
Scep, puea thai received 14 million votes, the Democrats 11 million. Thailand has a population of close to 70 million. Would you say that 14 million is the majority or even that 25 million is? Even if we count the votes given to the smaller parties, that’d be what, another 2 – 3 million? Is 28 million the majority?
Coming back to that. Were the quantum of votes of the smaller parties to be added to Democrats then you could say that it was even; as the total electorate gave half their votes to puea thai and the remaining half to others.
I guess it’s all in the perception.
What is to be done in Thailand?
I guess it was ok in your view, that: the red shirted proxies of thaksin attacked the ASEAN meeting in Pattya; placed gas truck bombs in neighborhoods; ran rampant in Bangkok burning tires and buses; intimidated the people of Bangkok with their crudeness; AND a year later closed down central Bangkok; ran riot in Kok Wua; and burnt down CentralWorld.
It was in my view the inflammatory and egging on of the clueless (but paid), red shirts, that cause the violence, destruction, and deaths. The protesters were politely asked to leave many times; what they did was to barricade the area. The harshness in clearing the area cannot be excused; but the authorities had experience and were weary of the violence and hooliganism prone red shirts and their leaders stemming from Pattya to Bangkok arson to Kok Wua.
The guilt does not lie with the army or Aphisit/Suthep alone; the deaths were caused also by the intractability of thaksin and his surrogates. They benefited not the people they professed to represent.
What is to be done in Thailand?
Hi Sceptic,
Yes I am the notdisappointed that you sparred with way back then. And it seems you have the same mindset (albeit with good intentions) that many foreigners have concerning Thailand. And it’s boring to have to repeatedly write in a way that will allow you to see another side of the picture.
I find that many well-intentioned farangs have a certain snobbish attitude when it comes to democracy. A democracy that they have grown up with and instinctively accept. A democracy that is more-or-less balanced and fair to both the majority of the electorate and might I say, the minority. Your democracy does not reward your politicians with wealth for winning an election. Your democracy does not allow the majority to be above the law.
I found an article that I think is fair and balanced. Perhaps if you and others have an open mind then you might learn something. But I think that bernd weber will not, as he is a die-heart thaksin loyalist.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-07/thailand-s-big-brother-drama.html#_
What I see and read from our well-intentioned foreign believers of the righteousness of democracy is that at the end of the day is: whoever has won the majority votes is allowed to govern. This is simplistic and naive. Perhaps in your own countries that may be the case. You blindly mouth democracy and democratic values but turn a blind eye to the undermining to those values by thaksin’s sister and his proxies.
All of you fail to recognize that the amnesty bill is farce. The amendment to Article 190 to allow collusion in the rich oil and gas fields in the Gulf of Thailand, as well as pushing through a non-transparent budget of Baht 2.2Trillion (and voting by proxy) is the most telling signal of the abuse of democracy for personal gain by thaksin and his surrogates.
Westerners want Thailand to have democracy and think that the electorate having elected thaksin’s proxies and his sister as PM; should let the majority govern. But what happens when the majority is used to create a tyranny of the majority and a democratic dictatorship. Is this the type of democracy that Westerners want?
What I see is a general bias and might I also say, racist bigotry in your posts. To be sure you’re all well-read individuals and like to pat each other on the back for witticism only you get (a small sign of the racist bigotry).
Some writers are so fixated on LM laws and a change to the Constitutional Monarchy, that they do not offer any practical solutions to the present undermining of democracy in Thailand. You think that voting and change to LM law will magically transform Thailand into the bastion of democracy.
Ain’t gonna happen. The majority of Thais are still living under the old culture of patronage and Sakdinar. Thais need education and honest people as standards to follow and look up to. Look at the recent voting for the amnesty bill and B2.2trillion (non-transparent)logistic budget; many puea thai parliamentarians did not votes themselves, but gave their ‘voting cards’ to another person to vote in their stead. Now, many of the red shirts said that there is nothing wrong to do so. And I guess it’s also alright and no big deal to our well-intentioned foreign friends since the puea thai party won the majority of the electorate, so they can do as they wish.
Review of A Civilized Woman
One thing that this review fails to make clear is the book’s remarkable effectiveness in vividly illustrating continuities between the Thailand of a century ago to that of “only yesterday”. It is highly reading for all interested in a clearer understanding of how the Thailand of today has emerged. An astonishingly rich work.
Uprooting the Thaksin regime
And how do you, Jim, define “definitely superior human beings”?
It seems Jim that you have nicely divided the human universe as either superior or inferior. And Jim himself would fall in which category, I am tempted to ask.
Uprooting the Thaksin regime
If anything, Mr Tibke underestimates what Nai Suthep’s recent antics suggest about the Democrat Party. It is clearly in terrible disarray: with no hope of winning elections, its links to the current leadership of the military shattered, and very possibly divided internally. It is rather stunning to watch this unfold.
The end of the Red Shirts?
Forming their own party will split the vote. Instead, they are working directly with PTP and having UDD leaders as PTP MPs.
Second, red shirts elect their leaders within the organization, so it’s not ‘feudal’.
Inflation and iconography: the new 100,000 Kip banknote in Laos
I have to reconsider my outlook. A new 100,000 Kip note was issued in 2012 with Kaysone more prominent than ever before (his portrait on the front, his museum and statue on the back, see here: http://old-paper-money.blogspot.de/2013/03/laos-new-kip-note-confirmed.html).
The professor and the secular
I forgot.
Thanks for the interesting and very well argued article!
Uprooting the Thaksin regime
The current situation in Bangkok is quite interesting in its contradictions. The constitutional court finds out that a change of constitution to reduce the number of appointed senators instead of elected, is not-constitutional. Students find out that the attempt to change the constitution is corruption and Suthep (who has quite a track record of corruption) with former Democrat Party MP (many of them local Chao Pho) try to save democracy by dissolving it. All use the symbols and places once used for struggles for democracy in their fight against increased popular political participation. They all seem to wish that the 310 are kicked out of parliament so that the democrat party will have again a majority.
Lee Kuan Yew writes in his memoirs that for the way to elect the party secretary of the PAP he used the election process of the pope as example. Suthep has probably learned from the Bolsheviks’. They knew that they would never be able to win an election, but were strong enough to destabilize the government in St. Petersburg. They used radical street protests of a small minority to kick out the government, and fill the seats themselves. Election were then postponed until the late 1980th. Now we can try to figure out whom Suthep tries to resemble. Certainly not Lenin and he does not have the beard of Stalin.
Uprooting the Thaksin regime
Glad to oblige, Vichai – A definition of “inferior human beings” might be “humans who are definitely not superior.” It is difficult for those of us who have witnessed the considerable advances of working-class folks under “Thaksinomics” to believe the hatred of the old-money/military elite for Thaksin is based on anything but resentment – resentment that rural and urban working-class folks are joining in on Thailand’s prosperity.
Malaysian media – watchdog or running dog?
[…] TESSA HOUGHTON, GUEST CONTRIBUTOR – 17 NOVEMBER 2013 New […]
Politicians, commoners, and kings
Hi Jon, apologies – please click on the NLA link again the record is now updated.
Politicians, commoners, and kings
Hi Jon,
No it is different book. NLA has Who’s who in Thailand politics 2013 (1st ed.)274 pages.
Uprooting the Thaksin regime
Define “inferior human beings” Jim.
And Thaksin may or may not be economics-adept. But Thaksin’s extrajudicial killings bent was factual and deserve repeated mention less the Thais forget. And Thaksin’s carries an inexhaustable store of malice against those who demand that he serve his sentence and face all pending judicial issues.
The end of the Red Shirts?
[…] of its most heartfelt and valuable objectives. Unlike Thorn Pitidol, who wrote for New Mandala last week, I do not see the Amnesty Bill fiasco as an omen for “the end of the Red Shirts.” If anything, […]
Uprooting the Thaksin regime
If one is to believe Tibke, all Thai political figures, regardless of stripe, are decidedly inferior human beings. It would perhaps be better to focus on the reason why TRT/PPP/PT won elections – the vastly improved well-being of working-class Thais under Thaksin’s leadership. This business of portraying Thaksin as a mass-murderer is tiresome, and only intended to divert attention away from his economic successes.
Politicians, commoners, and kings
Asia Books lists two books, ‘Who’s who in thailand politics 2013 (1st ed.)’, and ‘Who’s who in thailand 2013 (17 th ed.)’ – different ISBN numbers, same price. Same book? The NLA link lists the latter, with 414 pages.
Uprooting the Thaksin regime
Suthep and the General Strike” includes link to Prachatai discussion about a new Thai political party.