Hi Philip. Unfortunately this is Routledge’s publishing model–they want to exploit the university library system for a year before printing the paperback. If you have a institutional library who can purchase it, I encourage you to access it through that route. Otherwise the paperback will be out in few months. Thanks, Heidi
Puzzling that anyone (3 as I type this) would find it appropriate to “thumb down” a straightforward request for a link to footage showing what’s claimed.
I’ve certainly seen footage* being widely circulated in the last couple of days – allegedly showing last weekend’s RS rallygoers being paid their attendance fee.
Just two problems with that claim for it:
1] It’s from March 2010
2] As widely discussed at the time, it was openly done & openly videoed – & actually shows drivers signing for & receiving fuel expenses for carrying passengers to a rally.
If р╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕в has seen something different, let’s also see it for ourselves please. Is that so problematic?
I am impressed by your passionate language and even agree with some of what you say if, obviously, not the substance. For instance I too have strong reservations about the efficacy of the rice-pledging scheme, but I still believe firmly in the importance of this government’s wealth-redistributive policies in a country as divided and economically unbalanced as Thailand. Nonetheless your post gets a quality comment rating from me.
Surely you must be the same “notdisappointed” I used to joust with on the chat pages of The Nation at about the time of the coup? You changed your name then from “disappointed” to “notdissapointed”, while I masqueraded under the moniker “quoodle”, which I pinched from Chesterton”s reference to the English “who have not spoken yet”. Inevitably you ribbed me as “quoodle the noodle” I remember that your political heroes were Pridi Banomyong and Thirayuth Boonmee, so you can see what an impression you made on me. But can you see the similarities in what Abhisit’s “Democrats” have done to Thaksin and what Seni Pramoj and his mob did to Pridi? “Pridi killed the King!” As a committed socialist (in palace-speak read “communist”) Pridi was possibly even more reviled than is the “populist” Thaksin, if that were possible. I think it is interesting too how, seven or eight years ago, we seem to have had much greater freedom of expression in Thailand – even on the conservative-royalist Nation! – than we have had since. Although that has improved a little under the present government, it explains my need to come to this board in a properly democratic country which still, unlike much of the press in Thailand, generally values free speech and tolerates argument.
In a democracy, which you have no clue about, it is everyone’s right to criticise bad govt and laws. My problem with supporters of illegal coups is that they automatically forfeit their right to complain about anything unless they have seen the light and now support the democratic system. These pompus rectors probably want to have a go at democracy and return to another illegal military dictatorship. I have never been a supporter of Thaksin who is just a product of the corruption that pervades the elite in Thailand. As a believer in the democratic process I am forced to support YL and her govt against the undemocratic forces and their gang only wanting war with Cambodia over the original stolen plot of land that has a pile of old stones on it. Corruption in Thailand is a stain on the country but I have not heard one word from the accused murderers or anyone else winging about it on how to deal with this problem. Companies in Thailand always go to court to sue anyone that finds out the truth about their operating practices. Allegations have been made against mining practices at Na Nong Bong. The local people claim that poisonous chemicals have seeped into the local water supplies.They have allegedly been threatened by the company.This is real corruption in action and no one cares. Thaksin cannot be accused of this, can he?
“I don’t think that democracy under thaksin and puea thai best serves the interest of the real majority of Thais.”
And who is to decide that; you or a real majority of Thais? I am particularly interested in your choice of the word “real”. Are you suggeting that the majority attained by Pheu Thai and augmented by its coalition partners, is in some way not real? How would you justify that?
Maybe I am naive and an idealist. Far better than being a crony to fascism and dictatorships.
Party politics are expensive and designed to stop real democratic parties from emerging to challenge the status quo of the elite parties. Sombat has called for a real party to be formed from dissaffected red shirts. Perhaps I am a dreamer to imagine such a party can exsist. However, as I don’t live in Bangkok and speak only to elist politicians I am at an advantage as I live in the real world and not the corrupt cesspit called Bangkok.
Fred Johnson, I disagree with you, that the government was elected, end of story. In a Western sense it might make sense to say this but in a budding democracy where the vested interest of one man supersedes the good of the people; the only way out is to force the government to resign or call for new elections.
There is no betrayal of democracy if what is being done, that is, demonstrations against a budding authoritarian democracy under the guise of electorate majority, is done to return the country back on course towards a suatained path to real democracy. Not a a democracy of majoritarianism and disguised dictatorship.
The amnesty bill was just another attempt to use ‘majority’ to railroad a whitewash for thjaksin. What else was ‘majority’ uesd for? Rice pledging; non-transparent budgets of B350Billion and B2.2trillion; amendments to the Constitution that serve to help thaksin’s puppets take control of the country legally and constitutionally. Democracy is not just an electoral win it’s also about protecting the interest of the minority.
And in any case, I don’t think that democracy under thjaksin and puea thai best serves the interest of the real majority of Thais.
The current events in Thailand are a disgrace and an affront to democracy. The government and Thaksin Shinawatra have been given a resounding slap by the people. The amnesty bill is at least for now dead. The actions of the Democrat Part are an abuse of the democratic system and an illegal attempt at seizing power.
Where the policies of the government are good or bad, is irrelevant. That’s what a ballot box is for. The actions of Suthep and the Democrats are yet another attempt by the same mob who seized parliament in 2008 and closed the airports to send the country back seven years in time.
This government was elected. End of story. Don’t like the policies, vote them out. Following the Democrats in this new focus of removing an elected governemnt risks indeed having LOS become the acronym for land of sheep as pointed out here: Thailand 3-Day Shutdown Call a Betrayal of Democracy
“How dare they have the gaul to criticise any elected govt over this incredibly stupid and misguided law? ”
Do you really think that an elected government can do no wrong? Is it a sin to criticize a government that is using their electoral win to undermine and bastardize democracy?
This amnesty bill is only one of the many symptoms of thaksin’s attempt to turn Thailand into a fascist democratic tyranny.
That’s what we should be focusing on. It’s a much bigger picture with much at stake.
“If this ridiculous bill becomes law then you can expect this will be the Thaksin’s clan to really disappear into history. The Red shirts must be seriously consisering forming their own party and take all the disaffected people with them. I even expect that some of the Yellow shirts will join them.”
So innocently put. Your vaunted understanding of Thai politics has a few holes in it if you think that the reds, presently under the leadership of TS’ minions, can and could form their own party, This statement is so naive. If you understand Thai politics so well, you’d understand that politics in Thailand or for that matter anywhere in the world needs financing.
No amount of idealism or dissatisfaction will change this.
AMM is biased and bigoted in his analysis of Thailand. His views reflect this and have no real basis of truth except only in his mind and those of people who think similarly with him.
He and his like-minded supporters say they do not support thaksisn but in all their writings they crudely put him up on a pedestal.
He did this, he did that for the rural people. But they fail in their bias, to say that thaksin only did it to further his own ends. The rural people or for that matter the reds are being deluded by their leaders, who are even now being rewarded by thaksin.
May I offer another viewpoint? Having opened the eyes of the rural population and empowering them; thaksin then corralled them into a political force that was and being used to “serve the political ends of thaksin and some of his (non-rural) coterie of supporters rather than being predicated on the principles of justice and accountability.”
You must admit that thaksin is first and foremost about himself. The rural people in their naiveté of democratic ideals have been deluded by the propaganda of their leadership. Their empowerment has since been used by rhetoric and disinformation to serve only the ends of thaksin. They don’t realize and understand that their electoral vote is being used to create a democratic tyranny of the majority. This can be seen by the ill-conceived budgets and bills railroaded through parliament; this recent amnesty bill is a glaring denouncement of thaksin’s blatant undermining of democracy that Roy Anderson knows so much about. Many people purport to know about Thai politics but in the end they show themselves to be thaksin apologists.
Do the intelligent readers and interested parties on NM really believe that thaksin is the great supporter of democracy as many here think? If not then, there can only be peace and reconciliation in Thailand were he to stop his machinations and leave the rural people to learn about democracy not from his supporters and sycophants, but from listening and communicating with all sides. There is no we or them; there is only a Thailand of democracy loving people. But democracy and the full understanding of it takes time.
Alcoholism existed as NCD deserves particular mention.
No distillery exited b/f 1st Anglo Burmese War. Within the Buddhist Myanmar.
Then Alcohol or any drunkenness is decreed to be a prosecutable crime, taken seriously by all in charge of Law and Order.
Besides available imbibition then was nothing stronger than Palm Wine (Htun Ye├в) 5% alcohol at best.
The strongest brew now in Myanmar is ├Вyet Phyu (clear liquor) it is cheap and is at least 150 proof (75%). Introduced by the Colonist after much in vivo experimentation with the loyal subjects in British India. Where the max % of alcohol was found to be “none lethal” with maximum effect, addiction and eventual fatality.
This imbibition has been formulated for the most poor coolies/laborers, is very cheap and readily available,still, through government run stores.
Alcoholism in Myanmar is rampant, even among who can afford brand name drink
Amsterdam has proven once again that he was thaksin’s perfect choice to represent him. Thaksin is getting his money’s worth. The rhetoric, disinformation and wordplay from Amsterdam is masterful and colorful, in its twisting and turning of facts and reality; so much so that it borders on fiction. His believability is just for those who side with the mistaken belief that thaksin is the savior of democracy in Thailand against ambiguous so-called elites and royalists.
What we have seen and are seeing is the systematic undermining of democracy under the guise of “majority government” derived from the electorate. But in actuality, what has taken place is the advent of “majoritarianism” or ‘tyranny of the majority’. Nothing is being done for the people. What initiatives have there been from this majority government for the people? What’s been done about education except to close neighborhood schools. What been done to solidify Thailand as the major rice exporter except to stockpile high priced and rotting rice in warehouses losing billions of Baht that could have been better spent to give better medical care and drugs to rural hospital and medical centers or provide relief to schools?
I think that two years is enough to prove that the interests of the people (the real majority) is not utmost in the agenda of this puppet government.
Ill-conceived populist policies, rice scheme, non-transparent budgets B350.0Bn and B2.2 trillion, first car, energy, police state, amnesty, 190, 68, and other dismantling of the Constitution, Phreah Vihear, and just plain stupidly should make anyone of us want to say;
“I’m fucking mad as hell and I’m not gonna take it anymore.”
It’s more than just amnesty. It’s using democracy for selfserving interest of thaksin and his puea thai party.
A few people blowing whistles and using color-coded clappers isn’t boiling. There is way too much fun being had for anything radical to happen. On both sides we see those who can’t really see beyond their next attendance fee. And what a laugh listening to one hugely corrupt politician slagging off another hugely corrupt politician with whom he almost certainly used to have a ‘healthy’ working relationship. Whatever the outcome of the current wave of fun and games, it is a complete certainty that (at the end) Thailand’s political mafia will still be holding the rest of the country to ransom. Would anyone here gladly choose to die for such nonsense? I think not. Enjoy it while it lasts, but expect a few dead before it loses its novelty value. Disinterest usually begins to kick in about the time it gets a bit too violent for those with a job to hold down.
Not everything can be planned in advance. The reasons for the amnesty is to get the Redshirts out of prison, that part is obvious. And for some kind of closure if not “reconciliation” which was a big word used for quite a while. This is something the government need to finish up (whether it works out or not).
Clearly no one expects the Senate with all the Democrat-loving appointees to actually pass this, but it was an opportunity to see who would abstain.
Now, the Democrats, excited that there are some several thousand people willing to march in the streets feel that their time is now to recapture power (it worked once before didn’t it?).
But this time the military won’t come out. DSI already has informed everyone they are breaking the law. Even after the Preah Vihear ruling, the Senate rejection of the amnesty, and hotheads on both sides in the street, nothing will resolve.
Anyone who thinks that Thaksin is losing this round doesn’t have eyes to see. It is a stalemate currently, but while his government is operating, it is a win on points.
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Show us your theories
FYI
Your article has now officially received the honoured “w3.mict.go.th”.
Kareoke and opportunity?
Hi Philip. Unfortunately this is Routledge’s publishing model–they want to exploit the university library system for a year before printing the paperback. If you have a institutional library who can purchase it, I encourage you to access it through that route. Otherwise the paperback will be out in few months. Thanks, Heidi
The end of the Red Shirts?
Puzzling that anyone (3 as I type this) would find it appropriate to “thumb down” a straightforward request for a link to footage showing what’s claimed.
I’ve certainly seen footage* being widely circulated in the last couple of days – allegedly showing last weekend’s RS rallygoers being paid their attendance fee.
Just two problems with that claim for it:
1] It’s from March 2010
2] As widely discussed at the time, it was openly done & openly videoed – & actually shows drivers signing for & receiving fuel expenses for carrying passengers to a rally.
If р╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕в has seen something different, let’s also see it for ourselves please. Is that so problematic?
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh89tZy5sUY
What is to be done in Thailand?
Notdissapointed
I’m very interested to hear what your version of democracy is – could you explain it to me please?
I’m particularly interested in the bit where the population don’t get to vote for their government.
What is to be done in Thailand?
I am impressed by your passionate language and even agree with some of what you say if, obviously, not the substance. For instance I too have strong reservations about the efficacy of the rice-pledging scheme, but I still believe firmly in the importance of this government’s wealth-redistributive policies in a country as divided and economically unbalanced as Thailand. Nonetheless your post gets a quality comment rating from me.
Surely you must be the same “notdisappointed” I used to joust with on the chat pages of The Nation at about the time of the coup? You changed your name then from “disappointed” to “notdissapointed”, while I masqueraded under the moniker “quoodle”, which I pinched from Chesterton”s reference to the English “who have not spoken yet”. Inevitably you ribbed me as “quoodle the noodle” I remember that your political heroes were Pridi Banomyong and Thirayuth Boonmee, so you can see what an impression you made on me. But can you see the similarities in what Abhisit’s “Democrats” have done to Thaksin and what Seni Pramoj and his mob did to Pridi? “Pridi killed the King!” As a committed socialist (in palace-speak read “communist”) Pridi was possibly even more reviled than is the “populist” Thaksin, if that were possible. I think it is interesting too how, seven or eight years ago, we seem to have had much greater freedom of expression in Thailand – even on the conservative-royalist Nation! – than we have had since. Although that has improved a little under the present government, it explains my need to come to this board in a properly democratic country which still, unlike much of the press in Thailand, generally values free speech and tolerates argument.
All the best to you.
Quoodle aka Sceptic
Back to Thailand’s future
In a democracy, which you have no clue about, it is everyone’s right to criticise bad govt and laws. My problem with supporters of illegal coups is that they automatically forfeit their right to complain about anything unless they have seen the light and now support the democratic system. These pompus rectors probably want to have a go at democracy and return to another illegal military dictatorship. I have never been a supporter of Thaksin who is just a product of the corruption that pervades the elite in Thailand. As a believer in the democratic process I am forced to support YL and her govt against the undemocratic forces and their gang only wanting war with Cambodia over the original stolen plot of land that has a pile of old stones on it. Corruption in Thailand is a stain on the country but I have not heard one word from the accused murderers or anyone else winging about it on how to deal with this problem. Companies in Thailand always go to court to sue anyone that finds out the truth about their operating practices. Allegations have been made against mining practices at Na Nong Bong. The local people claim that poisonous chemicals have seeped into the local water supplies.They have allegedly been threatened by the company.This is real corruption in action and no one cares. Thaksin cannot be accused of this, can he?
What is to be done in Thailand?
“I don’t think that democracy under thaksin and puea thai best serves the interest of the real majority of Thais.”
And who is to decide that; you or a real majority of Thais? I am particularly interested in your choice of the word “real”. Are you suggeting that the majority attained by Pheu Thai and augmented by its coalition partners, is in some way not real? How would you justify that?
Back to Thailand’s future
Maybe I am naive and an idealist. Far better than being a crony to fascism and dictatorships.
Party politics are expensive and designed to stop real democratic parties from emerging to challenge the status quo of the elite parties. Sombat has called for a real party to be formed from dissaffected red shirts. Perhaps I am a dreamer to imagine such a party can exsist. However, as I don’t live in Bangkok and speak only to elist politicians I am at an advantage as I live in the real world and not the corrupt cesspit called Bangkok.
What is to be done in Thailand?
Fred Johnson, I disagree with you, that the government was elected, end of story. In a Western sense it might make sense to say this but in a budding democracy where the vested interest of one man supersedes the good of the people; the only way out is to force the government to resign or call for new elections.
There is no betrayal of democracy if what is being done, that is, demonstrations against a budding authoritarian democracy under the guise of electorate majority, is done to return the country back on course towards a suatained path to real democracy. Not a a democracy of majoritarianism and disguised dictatorship.
The amnesty bill was just another attempt to use ‘majority’ to railroad a whitewash for thjaksin. What else was ‘majority’ uesd for? Rice pledging; non-transparent budgets of B350Billion and B2.2trillion; amendments to the Constitution that serve to help thaksin’s puppets take control of the country legally and constitutionally. Democracy is not just an electoral win it’s also about protecting the interest of the minority.
And in any case, I don’t think that democracy under thjaksin and puea thai best serves the interest of the real majority of Thais.
What is to be done in Thailand?
The current events in Thailand are a disgrace and an affront to democracy. The government and Thaksin Shinawatra have been given a resounding slap by the people. The amnesty bill is at least for now dead. The actions of the Democrat Part are an abuse of the democratic system and an illegal attempt at seizing power.
Where the policies of the government are good or bad, is irrelevant. That’s what a ballot box is for. The actions of Suthep and the Democrats are yet another attempt by the same mob who seized parliament in 2008 and closed the airports to send the country back seven years in time.
This government was elected. End of story. Don’t like the policies, vote them out. Following the Democrats in this new focus of removing an elected governemnt risks indeed having LOS become the acronym for land of sheep as pointed out here: Thailand 3-Day Shutdown Call a Betrayal of Democracy
What is to be done in Thailand?
“Every player…” ?
Can’t say I’ve noticed the military exactly jostling to get the head of that line.
Back to Thailand’s future
“How dare they have the gaul to criticise any elected govt over this incredibly stupid and misguided law? ”
Do you really think that an elected government can do no wrong? Is it a sin to criticize a government that is using their electoral win to undermine and bastardize democracy?
This amnesty bill is only one of the many symptoms of thaksin’s attempt to turn Thailand into a fascist democratic tyranny.
That’s what we should be focusing on. It’s a much bigger picture with much at stake.
Back to Thailand’s future
“If this ridiculous bill becomes law then you can expect this will be the Thaksin’s clan to really disappear into history. The Red shirts must be seriously consisering forming their own party and take all the disaffected people with them. I even expect that some of the Yellow shirts will join them.”
So innocently put. Your vaunted understanding of Thai politics has a few holes in it if you think that the reds, presently under the leadership of TS’ minions, can and could form their own party, This statement is so naive. If you understand Thai politics so well, you’d understand that politics in Thailand or for that matter anywhere in the world needs financing.
No amount of idealism or dissatisfaction will change this.
Back to Thailand’s future
AMM is biased and bigoted in his analysis of Thailand. His views reflect this and have no real basis of truth except only in his mind and those of people who think similarly with him.
He and his like-minded supporters say they do not support thaksisn but in all their writings they crudely put him up on a pedestal.
He did this, he did that for the rural people. But they fail in their bias, to say that thaksin only did it to further his own ends. The rural people or for that matter the reds are being deluded by their leaders, who are even now being rewarded by thaksin.
This is not real democracy by thaksinocracy.
Back to Thailand’s future
May I offer another viewpoint? Having opened the eyes of the rural population and empowering them; thaksin then corralled them into a political force that was and being used to “serve the political ends of thaksin and some of his (non-rural) coterie of supporters rather than being predicated on the principles of justice and accountability.”
You must admit that thaksin is first and foremost about himself. The rural people in their naiveté of democratic ideals have been deluded by the propaganda of their leadership. Their empowerment has since been used by rhetoric and disinformation to serve only the ends of thaksin. They don’t realize and understand that their electoral vote is being used to create a democratic tyranny of the majority. This can be seen by the ill-conceived budgets and bills railroaded through parliament; this recent amnesty bill is a glaring denouncement of thaksin’s blatant undermining of democracy that Roy Anderson knows so much about. Many people purport to know about Thai politics but in the end they show themselves to be thaksin apologists.
Do the intelligent readers and interested parties on NM really believe that thaksin is the great supporter of democracy as many here think? If not then, there can only be peace and reconciliation in Thailand were he to stop his machinations and leave the rural people to learn about democracy not from his supporters and sycophants, but from listening and communicating with all sides. There is no we or them; there is only a Thailand of democracy loving people. But democracy and the full understanding of it takes time.
On the cusp of disease transition in Myanmar
Alcoholism existed as NCD deserves particular mention.
No distillery exited b/f 1st Anglo Burmese War. Within the Buddhist Myanmar.
Then Alcohol or any drunkenness is decreed to be a prosecutable crime, taken seriously by all in charge of Law and Order.
Besides available imbibition then was nothing stronger than Palm Wine (Htun Ye├в) 5% alcohol at best.
The strongest brew now in Myanmar is ├Вyet Phyu (clear liquor) it is cheap and is at least 150 proof (75%). Introduced by the Colonist after much in vivo experimentation with the loyal subjects in British India. Where the max % of alcohol was found to be “none lethal” with maximum effect, addiction and eventual fatality.
This imbibition has been formulated for the most poor coolies/laborers, is very cheap and readily available,still, through government run stores.
Alcoholism in Myanmar is rampant, even among who can afford brand name drink
http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/juntas-former-2-maung-aye-ailing-sources.html
For those victims old and new due to colonial (├Вyet Phyu) legacy there will not be any mentioned by Sam Byfield.
What is to be done in Thailand?
Amsterdam has proven once again that he was thaksin’s perfect choice to represent him. Thaksin is getting his money’s worth. The rhetoric, disinformation and wordplay from Amsterdam is masterful and colorful, in its twisting and turning of facts and reality; so much so that it borders on fiction. His believability is just for those who side with the mistaken belief that thaksin is the savior of democracy in Thailand against ambiguous so-called elites and royalists.
What we have seen and are seeing is the systematic undermining of democracy under the guise of “majority government” derived from the electorate. But in actuality, what has taken place is the advent of “majoritarianism” or ‘tyranny of the majority’. Nothing is being done for the people. What initiatives have there been from this majority government for the people? What’s been done about education except to close neighborhood schools. What been done to solidify Thailand as the major rice exporter except to stockpile high priced and rotting rice in warehouses losing billions of Baht that could have been better spent to give better medical care and drugs to rural hospital and medical centers or provide relief to schools?
I think that two years is enough to prove that the interests of the people (the real majority) is not utmost in the agenda of this puppet government.
Ill-conceived populist policies, rice scheme, non-transparent budgets B350.0Bn and B2.2 trillion, first car, energy, police state, amnesty, 190, 68, and other dismantling of the Constitution, Phreah Vihear, and just plain stupidly should make anyone of us want to say;
“I’m fucking mad as hell and I’m not gonna take it anymore.”
It’s more than just amnesty. It’s using democracy for selfserving interest of thaksin and his puea thai party.
The end of the Red Shirts?
A few people blowing whistles and using color-coded clappers isn’t boiling. There is way too much fun being had for anything radical to happen. On both sides we see those who can’t really see beyond their next attendance fee. And what a laugh listening to one hugely corrupt politician slagging off another hugely corrupt politician with whom he almost certainly used to have a ‘healthy’ working relationship. Whatever the outcome of the current wave of fun and games, it is a complete certainty that (at the end) Thailand’s political mafia will still be holding the rest of the country to ransom. Would anyone here gladly choose to die for such nonsense? I think not. Enjoy it while it lasts, but expect a few dead before it loses its novelty value. Disinterest usually begins to kick in about the time it gets a bit too violent for those with a job to hold down.
Show us your theories
Not everything can be planned in advance. The reasons for the amnesty is to get the Redshirts out of prison, that part is obvious. And for some kind of closure if not “reconciliation” which was a big word used for quite a while. This is something the government need to finish up (whether it works out or not).
Clearly no one expects the Senate with all the Democrat-loving appointees to actually pass this, but it was an opportunity to see who would abstain.
Now, the Democrats, excited that there are some several thousand people willing to march in the streets feel that their time is now to recapture power (it worked once before didn’t it?).
But this time the military won’t come out. DSI already has informed everyone they are breaking the law. Even after the Preah Vihear ruling, the Senate rejection of the amnesty, and hotheads on both sides in the street, nothing will resolve.
Anyone who thinks that Thaksin is losing this round doesn’t have eyes to see. It is a stalemate currently, but while his government is operating, it is a win on points.
This will take decades to play out.
Kareoke and opportunity?
Heidi, your book costs $112 on Kindle, and more for the paper version. I’m sure it’s a great book, but…