PS. Looks like Mahidol University just blocked me from reading the rest of Andrew MacGregor Marshall’s article at http://www.zenjournalist.com
I was able to read half of it at home via my TOT supplied internet, but couldn’t access it from work. I got redirected to MICT instead. Any mirror sites available?
I agree with PPT’s assessment of Suthep Thugsuban (“Hypocrite”, 5 November 2013):
“Suthep called on the crowd to observe “a minute of silence to the victims including [posthumously promoted] Gen Romklao Thuwatham, who was brutally killed by the ‘men in black’ at Khok Wua Intersection…”
Suthep maintains the lie that only the elusive, never captured “black shirts” were responsible for all deaths in April and May 2010. Suthep couldn’t care less about the protesters; it was his orders that led to the military shootings. In other words, Suthep’s “rally” is as much about exonerating himself and his pathetic claims as the flawed amnesty bill is about Thaksin Shinawatra’s dirty laundry. He is a hypocrite and a dissembler.”
As far as the “anti-Democrat” protests are concerned, IMHO they lack a critical mass of supporters (fewer than 10,000 have ever shown up) for them to amount to anything more than traffic snarl-ups. The government can mobilize five times more police than protestors to contain them, and the police have learned some important lessons in crowd control. Witness how quickly the “Pitak Siam” demonstrations earlier this year fizzled out.
It will be important to see what happens on November 11, when the ICJ issues its ruling about Preah Vihar, and whether the organizers of the anti-amnesty bill will have a ready made mob to whip into a nationalistic fervor to create more than just a little mischief.
BTW, I think the blanket amnesty bill stinks, but I won’t join a protest lead by Suthep to stop it.
“Rational people who have not thrown in their lot with either of the two rival patronage systems are more likely to support the Bill, because it breaks the cycle of bitterness, and paves the way for a future when patronage matters less, and good ideas are more important.”
Hardly. Rational people recognize that Thaksin belongs in jail (gaol) and that there
should be no amnesty. The notion that amnesty will “break the cycle of bitterness” is illusory. Good ideas come from people who
don’t amass humongous fortunes and abscond with people’s money.
My simple-minded take on the Amnesty Bill is this. Its purpose is to neutralise the courts, whose decisions are 100% predictable. For the Thaksinites it’s a win-lose. Those of them facing trial stay out of gaol but so do their enemies. Without an amnesty it’s a lose-lose for the Thaksinites. They go to gaol (or remain exiled) and all their enemies get off.
Rational people who have not thrown in their lot with either of the two rival patronage systems are more likely to support the Bill, because it breaks the cycle of bitterness, and paves the way for a future when patronage matters less, and good ideas are more important.
“I believe all the universities of Thailand (except Shinawatra University I presume) had submitted a united petition by their Presidents for PM Yingluck to withdraw the Thaksin-amnesty bill.”
NO Amnesty for Thaksin ! So typical of his family to work on his behalf…just like Taib
of Sarawak in Malaysia.
There is a Law for the Royals (as defined above)
and a Law of the Jungles,….
Largely Because of Mahathir’s Interference of the Judiciary Earlier-
Not Entirely the PDRM Which I Perceived is More as a Victim of Circumstances and Blackmails Under the Powers that Had Been Abused and Misused by the Power-that-be.
Still, it is Not an Legitimate Excuse for the PDRM to Act Adversely Selectively with Little Regard to Law and Order. Such Conducts are Against Public Interests,
Tough subject to talk about carefully these days, Thailand’s politics, as this comment stream shows. I too have wondered if New Mandala was perhaps giving up on it for a while, hoping that a little neglect might allow a less strident discussion to emerge at some future date. And there are other countries, other politics to talk about. But I’m glad to see these posts. I rely on New Mandala for perspective.
I believe all the universities of Thailand (except Shinawatra University I presume) had submitted a united petition by their Presidents for PM Yingluck to withdraw the Thaksin-amnesty bill.
Nicholas Farrelly you are the academic. Had the same thing happened in Australia, should its PM comply plus resign?
I put a link to the allocated off-prints up on NM earlier in the year (it’s in comment 3.1 here). As I said then, please don’t hesitate to e-mail me directly if you’d like a copy. I am in the process of getting all of my publications organised for better online distribution.
Then why not post reasoned reply to this debate instead of showing your hatred for one man? BTW I have always opposed Thaksin and his capitalist policies.
“Peter Cohen,
Your response to my comments should be posted on Thaivisa and not here. Your hatred towards Thaksin clouds your judgement and you appear NOT to understand Thai politics one bit.
However, I will thank you for using a proper name as undoubtedly I will get responses from people who hide behind silly names to conceal their real identities.”
You know nothing of me and you know nothing
of my knowledge of Thai politics which is
extensive. What is apparent is that because
you disagree and/or support Thaksin, you
resort to disparagement. Shall I repeat
my comments in Thai for you so you will better understand them ? It is not my judgment that is clouded but your need to
resort to personal disparagement.
Peter Cohen,
Your response to my comments should be posted on Thaivisa and not here. Your hatred towards Thaksin clouds your judgement and you appear NOT to understand Thai politics one bit.
However, I will thank you for using a proper name as undoubtedly I will get responses from people who hide behind silly names to conceal their real identities.
True, Roy, but the reason I focus on the elite is that their machinations are usually hidden and nobody else ever exposes what they are doing. I agree with you that the wider struggle is far more important, but that has been amply written about by people far smarter than me.
“Thaksin has no idea as to what he started by giving the people self esteem as he opened their eyes. If this ridiculous bill becomes law then you can expect this will be the Thaksin’s clan to really disappear into history.”
Rubbish….Thaksin gave the Thai people self-esteem ? Oh please…what he gave himself is
a vast fortune. Your PAEN to Thaksin is absurd. Disappear into history ? We should be so fortunate….
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Back to Thailand’s future
PS. Looks like Mahidol University just blocked me from reading the rest of Andrew MacGregor Marshall’s article at http://www.zenjournalist.com
I was able to read half of it at home via my TOT supplied internet, but couldn’t access it from work. I got redirected to MICT instead. Any mirror sites available?
Back to Thailand’s future
My comment about rational people was meant partly as a gentle dig at those who suck up hate propaganda.
Back to Thailand’s future
I agree with PPT’s assessment of Suthep Thugsuban (“Hypocrite”, 5 November 2013):
“Suthep called on the crowd to observe “a minute of silence to the victims including [posthumously promoted] Gen Romklao Thuwatham, who was brutally killed by the ‘men in black’ at Khok Wua Intersection…”
Suthep maintains the lie that only the elusive, never captured “black shirts” were responsible for all deaths in April and May 2010. Suthep couldn’t care less about the protesters; it was his orders that led to the military shootings. In other words, Suthep’s “rally” is as much about exonerating himself and his pathetic claims as the flawed amnesty bill is about Thaksin Shinawatra’s dirty laundry. He is a hypocrite and a dissembler.”
As far as the “anti-Democrat” protests are concerned, IMHO they lack a critical mass of supporters (fewer than 10,000 have ever shown up) for them to amount to anything more than traffic snarl-ups. The government can mobilize five times more police than protestors to contain them, and the police have learned some important lessons in crowd control. Witness how quickly the “Pitak Siam” demonstrations earlier this year fizzled out.
It will be important to see what happens on November 11, when the ICJ issues its ruling about Preah Vihar, and whether the organizers of the anti-amnesty bill will have a ready made mob to whip into a nationalistic fervor to create more than just a little mischief.
BTW, I think the blanket amnesty bill stinks, but I won’t join a protest lead by Suthep to stop it.
Why is Malaysia experiencing a brain drain?
You believe that? Phantom voters?
Back to Thailand’s future
“Rational people who have not thrown in their lot with either of the two rival patronage systems are more likely to support the Bill, because it breaks the cycle of bitterness, and paves the way for a future when patronage matters less, and good ideas are more important.”
Hardly. Rational people recognize that Thaksin belongs in jail (gaol) and that there
should be no amnesty. The notion that amnesty will “break the cycle of bitterness” is illusory. Good ideas come from people who
don’t amass humongous fortunes and abscond with people’s money.
Back to Thailand’s future
My simple-minded take on the Amnesty Bill is this. Its purpose is to neutralise the courts, whose decisions are 100% predictable. For the Thaksinites it’s a win-lose. Those of them facing trial stay out of gaol but so do their enemies. Without an amnesty it’s a lose-lose for the Thaksinites. They go to gaol (or remain exiled) and all their enemies get off.
Rational people who have not thrown in their lot with either of the two rival patronage systems are more likely to support the Bill, because it breaks the cycle of bitterness, and paves the way for a future when patronage matters less, and good ideas are more important.
Back to Thailand’s future
“I believe all the universities of Thailand (except Shinawatra University I presume) had submitted a united petition by their Presidents for PM Yingluck to withdraw the Thaksin-amnesty bill.”
NO Amnesty for Thaksin ! So typical of his family to work on his behalf…just like Taib
of Sarawak in Malaysia.
Polis, Raja Di Malaysia [Police, Kings in Malaysia]
Clearly ,
There is a Law for the Royals (as defined above)
and a Law of the Jungles,….
Largely Because of Mahathir’s Interference of the Judiciary Earlier-
Not Entirely the PDRM Which I Perceived is More as a Victim of Circumstances and Blackmails Under the Powers that Had Been Abused and Misused by the Power-that-be.
Still, it is Not an Legitimate Excuse for the PDRM to Act Adversely Selectively with Little Regard to Law and Order. Such Conducts are Against Public Interests,
Back to Thailand’s future
Tough subject to talk about carefully these days, Thailand’s politics, as this comment stream shows. I too have wondered if New Mandala was perhaps giving up on it for a while, hoping that a little neglect might allow a less strident discussion to emerge at some future date. And there are other countries, other politics to talk about. But I’m glad to see these posts. I rely on New Mandala for perspective.
Back to Thailand’s future
I believe all the universities of Thailand (except Shinawatra University I presume) had submitted a united petition by their Presidents for PM Yingluck to withdraw the Thaksin-amnesty bill.
Nicholas Farrelly you are the academic. Had the same thing happened in Australia, should its PM comply plus resign?
Back to Thailand’s future
It’s the beginning of the end of all hardcores red in Thailand,for sure.very tricky.
Back to Thailand’s future
Apologies for the shameless self-promotion (one of my specialities) but my article is free: http://www.zenjournalist.com/2013/10/%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%B5%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%B8%E0%B8%84-thailands-era-of-insanity/
Back to Thailand’s future
Thanks Jon,
I put a link to the allocated off-prints up on NM earlier in the year (it’s in comment 3.1 here). As I said then, please don’t hesitate to e-mail me directly if you’d like a copy. I am in the process of getting all of my publications organised for better online distribution.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Back to Thailand’s future
Then why not post reasoned reply to this debate instead of showing your hatred for one man? BTW I have always opposed Thaksin and his capitalist policies.
Back to Thailand’s future
“Peter Cohen,
Your response to my comments should be posted on Thaivisa and not here. Your hatred towards Thaksin clouds your judgement and you appear NOT to understand Thai politics one bit.
However, I will thank you for using a proper name as undoubtedly I will get responses from people who hide behind silly names to conceal their real identities.”
You know nothing of me and you know nothing
of my knowledge of Thai politics which is
extensive. What is apparent is that because
you disagree and/or support Thaksin, you
resort to disparagement. Shall I repeat
my comments in Thai for you so you will better understand them ? It is not my judgment that is clouded but your need to
resort to personal disparagement.
Back to Thailand’s future
Peter Cohen,
Your response to my comments should be posted on Thaivisa and not here. Your hatred towards Thaksin clouds your judgement and you appear NOT to understand Thai politics one bit.
However, I will thank you for using a proper name as undoubtedly I will get responses from people who hide behind silly names to conceal their real identities.
Back to Thailand’s future
$157 to read your article…. so basically almost no one in Thailand can read your article:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10357718.2013.788123#preview
…but i guess this is not an issue for a lot of area studies academics…
Malaysia-US and Malaysia-China relations
My Understanding of the Language of Support is for Any Military Procurement by Any Country, including Malaysia, is For Self Defense.
Simply, Because Nowhere in the World you Can Find a Minister or Secretary or Commissioner of OFFENSE.
Back to Thailand’s future
True, Roy, but the reason I focus on the elite is that their machinations are usually hidden and nobody else ever exposes what they are doing. I agree with you that the wider struggle is far more important, but that has been amply written about by people far smarter than me.
Back to Thailand’s future
“Thaksin has no idea as to what he started by giving the people self esteem as he opened their eyes. If this ridiculous bill becomes law then you can expect this will be the Thaksin’s clan to really disappear into history.”
Rubbish….Thaksin gave the Thai people self-esteem ? Oh please…what he gave himself is
a vast fortune. Your PAEN to Thaksin is absurd. Disappear into history ? We should be so fortunate….