This is fascinating. Apparently the Thai spirit houses are viewed as a form of cultural imperialism. I never would have guessed it would have had such a vociferous reaction as to make them tear down the one placed on the mountain. Apparently the Thais working for Italian-Thai Development Co. need to show a little more cultural sensitivity, such as to ask first before they assume such an action would be OK with the locals.
history lesson in your typical thai school (mind number 3 below!) :
1) thailand is the greatest country in the world (period)
2) thailand was never colonised because its leaders are the greatest leaders in the world (period)
3) thai food is the greatest food in the world (period)
“If there is a referendum before the overhaul it would mean that the charter revision process: mechanism and goals, would have to be clear and transparent as possible for there to be any hope of it passing the referendum.”
So, what you are proposing is a referendum on the methods of revising the charter – and NOT a referendum on changing the charter? The issue I have with a referendum before the change is that it would be like signing a blank contract. I wouldn’t want to approve anything until I see it in writing. Is that not ‘clear and transparent’?
“Neither of you 2 mention the 77 member CDA (plus 22 unelected ‘experts’) proposed by the PT, its clearly designed to ensure that the PT and UDD dominate the charter overhaul process.”
What do you recommend, instead?
johninbkk you wrote: To hold a referendum before a draft is written would be inviting people to vote on opinions, rumors, and fears/aspirations on what the new Constitution could be – and not what it actually will be.
I could not disagree more. If there is a referendum before the overhaul it would mean that the charter revision process: mechanism and goals, would have to be clear and transparent as possible for there to be any hope of it passing the referendum.
The way you favour leaves the door open to all kinds of rumours, opinions and needless acrimony as there is no clarity.
Nganadeeleg you wrote: When I said under the same rules as the 2007 referendum, I meant the same quorum rules (and not the unfair military imposed ones, obviously!).
IMO the new quorum rules are better than the previous quorum rules, as they insure that charter overhaul can only take place in a fair and transparent atmosphere with broad consensus.
The super majority rule you favour is not that bad, but it does allow room for political games, if you want a decent and stable document then your methods are not conducive to achieving it.
Neither of you 2 mention the 77 member CDA (plus 22 unelected ‘experts’) proposed by the PT, its clearly designed to ensure that the PT and UDD dominate the charter overhaul process. They have nowhere near enough popular support to justify that. And yes neither did the military, but why copy them?
Nganadeeleg you wrote:I basically agree with the process outlined by johninbkk, but in the meantime think the country should revert to the 1997 ‘peoples constitution’
You do, but does Thailand? Why not put it to a referendum? Why are you trying to leave the Thai people out of parts of the overhaul process? The more involved they are in the process, the less likely it will be unfair and it will make it incredibly difficult for anyone to annul it in the future.
Cod, it seems you find the popular video you mention at the start of this entry a natural reaction to the crude, romanticized conveyance of history you derided at the end. Yet you make some assumptions that play into this worrying dichotomy. Firstly, it’s not true that Thailand is “unfortunately unimportant and decidedly inept at being relevant”. Thailand is very relevant and extraordinarily important, to itself, its neighbours and the World. Are you comparing economic power? Thai historiography is not ‘laughably thin’ compared to other countries in the region, or elsewhere for that matter. Again, what are you basing your comparison on? Have you looked at works written by Federico Ferrara (The legend of King Prajadhipok) or Tyrell Haberkorn (Revolution Interrupted), for example? This sort of work isn’t really done on a comparable level for most other countries in the region (except for Indonesia). Also, sure, history is abused by those who are not historians (and often, some historians would claim, by those who are) – you’re not going to find much difference between Thailand and other countries in that respect. I hope you become romantic about doing some revisionist history of your own.
FaLang is how the Thai people pronounce it, and I usually speak Thai like a Thai, not like a FARANG!, and I kid around with the neighbors whenever someone is talking and calls me falang, that does not know me, that I am no longer a foreigner because I have lived here a long time and can read and write both Thai and the local(speak) dialect, and we all have a good laugh. Don’t split hairs about what you don’t understand.
Thanks for that beautiful big map from 1886.
The Burma Railway proposal here would have cost the Siamese a fortune, and the British not so much. The Japs had a better idea of where to put it.
I guess the boundaries of Siam represent the limit of the area which the Bangkok régime had managed to rob in sporadic raids.
Unless my eyesight is failing me – there’s no Laos on this map – only a united Siam.
And no Bangkok dominant – not easy to even see where Bangkok is !!
Is this map past – or futuristic ?
The 4th International Conference on Lao Studies, which was convened at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, USA, from April 19-21, 2013, was successfully completed yesterday. There were 125 presenters organized into 38 panels at the conference, and a total of 250 people attended. There were many presentations of interest. For example, there were panels related to hydropower dam development, large-scale economic land concessions, the impacts of UXOs, resettlement issues, and swidden and other agriculture in Laos. There were also round table panels focused on the ongoing impact of Sombath Somphone and the present circumstances of ethnic minorities/indigenous peoples in Laos. Bruce Shoemaker made a presentation about Sombath Somphone just before Yves Goudineau’s keynote address, which was focused on ethnicity and resettlement issues in Laos.
The conference program, and all the abstracts from the conference, can be found at:
notdisappointed, I have only spend a brief amount of time on this site and in the few comment sections I have read I consistently notice that your comments add nothing to the discussion at hand. You must realize that your comment provides no reasonable argument for your position. I for one am interested in this debate, and I would benefit from reading articulate comments from both sides of the issue. You raise the question, “Is there a need for 112?” Please, elaborate. What exactly is the need for Article 112?
You need to relax. The discussion is about the Article 112 law, and views regarding Joe Gordon;s imprisonment. This is not the appropriate forum for airing your hostile views towards religion.
Alex’s views (if they are indeed similar to how you assume them to be) are different from those who support Article 112 because he is not calling for the arbitrary imprisonment of those who have a different view from him, as far as we can tell from his post.
Interestingly, you seem to have little problem harassing someone who has a different view from yourself.
Thailand will overcome the division only if:
– When Thailand’s politicians and police rise to the will of the people and not sworn to the a felon in Dubai;
– and when the police finally stops struggling against its own people;
– If the police can ‘protect and serve’ independently and freely and not be politicized;
– If human rights and freedom of speech are respected and the ‘red’ class no longer wants to play “democratic majority”
– When truth and justice, help and cooperation meets people’s lives not the wishes of one man in flight and his close group who try to bring back democratic tyranny.
– Monarchy only has a chance if selfish interest reformed themselves through the w2ill of the silent majority and withdraws from the power of democratic and parliamentary tyranny –
Thailand had begun this process – but liberal democracy was hijacked for the benefit of one man’s ego and to further enrich himself and his cronies, until he was finally ousted and is now bent on revenge using his money and puppets in the puea thai party, the udd and his stormtroopers to whitewash his corruption; even if his actions cause division within society.
One European tourist of a one track minded variety once wrote he saw huge representations of the male organ at the gates of Mandalay City Wall – a solitary large teak pillar with the gate sign in vermilion and gold at the top!
You wish.
Not for the lack of trying of course. The Fourth Burmese, sorry, Myanmar Empire? Same chance to succeed as the Thousand Year Reich I should imagine.
Proxy drug barons/warlords some already in govt as USDP ministers, or better still if nationalist leaders can be bought. Dress up and show up at Naypyidaw. Let’s share the loot. And the ordinary folk? Let them eat frog. The mainstream Bamar have already done it. Famous example? Still busy receiving awards, this time her great ally our ‘reformist’ president too.
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Thai spirits not welcome in Myanmar
This is fascinating. Apparently the Thai spirit houses are viewed as a form of cultural imperialism. I never would have guessed it would have had such a vociferous reaction as to make them tear down the one placed on the mountain. Apparently the Thais working for Italian-Thai Development Co. need to show a little more cultural sensitivity, such as to ask first before they assume such an action would be OK with the locals.
Loyalty demands dissent, history demands scrutiny
history lesson in your typical thai school (mind number 3 below!) :
1) thailand is the greatest country in the world (period)
2) thailand was never colonised because its leaders are the greatest leaders in the world (period)
3) thai food is the greatest food in the world (period)
Loyalty demands dissent, history demands scrutiny
Why do you publish the same article in Prachatai as well as NM? OH! I forgot that you don’t bother to reply to any comments on articles you write.
Why Thailand needs its king
“If there is a referendum before the overhaul it would mean that the charter revision process: mechanism and goals, would have to be clear and transparent as possible for there to be any hope of it passing the referendum.”
So, what you are proposing is a referendum on the methods of revising the charter – and NOT a referendum on changing the charter? The issue I have with a referendum before the change is that it would be like signing a blank contract. I wouldn’t want to approve anything until I see it in writing. Is that not ‘clear and transparent’?
“Neither of you 2 mention the 77 member CDA (plus 22 unelected ‘experts’) proposed by the PT, its clearly designed to ensure that the PT and UDD dominate the charter overhaul process.”
What do you recommend, instead?
Why Thailand needs its king
johninbkk you wrote: To hold a referendum before a draft is written would be inviting people to vote on opinions, rumors, and fears/aspirations on what the new Constitution could be – and not what it actually will be.
I could not disagree more. If there is a referendum before the overhaul it would mean that the charter revision process: mechanism and goals, would have to be clear and transparent as possible for there to be any hope of it passing the referendum.
The way you favour leaves the door open to all kinds of rumours, opinions and needless acrimony as there is no clarity.
Nganadeeleg you wrote: When I said under the same rules as the 2007 referendum, I meant the same quorum rules (and not the unfair military imposed ones, obviously!).
IMO the new quorum rules are better than the previous quorum rules, as they insure that charter overhaul can only take place in a fair and transparent atmosphere with broad consensus.
The super majority rule you favour is not that bad, but it does allow room for political games, if you want a decent and stable document then your methods are not conducive to achieving it.
Neither of you 2 mention the 77 member CDA (plus 22 unelected ‘experts’) proposed by the PT, its clearly designed to ensure that the PT and UDD dominate the charter overhaul process. They have nowhere near enough popular support to justify that. And yes neither did the military, but why copy them?
Nganadeeleg you wrote:I basically agree with the process outlined by johninbkk, but in the meantime think the country should revert to the 1997 ‘peoples constitution’
You do, but does Thailand? Why not put it to a referendum? Why are you trying to leave the Thai people out of parts of the overhaul process? The more involved they are in the process, the less likely it will be unfair and it will make it incredibly difficult for anyone to annul it in the future.
Loyalty demands dissent, history demands scrutiny
Cod, it seems you find the popular video you mention at the start of this entry a natural reaction to the crude, romanticized conveyance of history you derided at the end. Yet you make some assumptions that play into this worrying dichotomy. Firstly, it’s not true that Thailand is “unfortunately unimportant and decidedly inept at being relevant”. Thailand is very relevant and extraordinarily important, to itself, its neighbours and the World. Are you comparing economic power? Thai historiography is not ‘laughably thin’ compared to other countries in the region, or elsewhere for that matter. Again, what are you basing your comparison on? Have you looked at works written by Federico Ferrara (The legend of King Prajadhipok) or Tyrell Haberkorn (Revolution Interrupted), for example? This sort of work isn’t really done on a comparable level for most other countries in the region (except for Indonesia). Also, sure, history is abused by those who are not historians (and often, some historians would claim, by those who are) – you’re not going to find much difference between Thailand and other countries in that respect. I hope you become romantic about doing some revisionist history of your own.
What caused the Mae Surin fire?
What made the fire worse – and also hard to fight – was that it was traveling uphill.
I’ve been in that camp, and it’s a tinderbox. I’m surprised that more people ween’t killed or injured.
Was the SPDC behind it? We’ll probably never know.
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
Oh – I had completely forgotten – of course, also belongs to it:
thai:Hindley, P.M., The King Never Smiles: A Biography of Thailand’s Bhumibol Adulyadej,. Yale University Press, 2006.
(In Thai)
http://www.schoenes-thailand.de/dokumente/doc_download/5-the-king-never-smiles
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
@notdisappointed
transparency is good and important – that you should ask for everything
but please explain with what once thailand military generals are so rich and why there are so many of them …
for something more eye opening:
have you ever read this?
andrew mc gregor marshal:
http://www.zenjournalist.com/2012/01/the-tragedy-of-king-bhumibol/
or this
andrew mc gregor marshal (pdf)
http://www.zenjournalist.com/?wpdmact=process&did=Mi5ob3RsaW5r
or this
the devils discuse (pdf)
http://www.schoenes-thailand.de/dokumente/doc_download/81-the-devils-discus
or this:
a coup for the rich…(pdf)
http://www.schoenes-thailand.de/dokumente/doc_download/1-a-coup-for-the-rich
or this:
thailand unhinged
http://khikwai.com/
there is more if you want – it makes a lot of thinks more transparent – and helps to clear the fog
Why Thailand needs its king
FaLang is how the Thai people pronounce it, and I usually speak Thai like a Thai, not like a FARANG!, and I kid around with the neighbors whenever someone is talking and calls me falang, that does not know me, that I am no longer a foreigner because I have lived here a long time and can read and write both Thai and the local(speak) dialect, and we all have a good laugh. Don’t split hairs about what you don’t understand.
New work on Southeast Asian monarchies
[…] New work on Southeast Asian monarchies (asiapacific.anu.edu.au) […]
Thai studies in Sydney
Thanks for that beautiful big map from 1886.
The Burma Railway proposal here would have cost the Siamese a fortune, and the British not so much. The Japs had a better idea of where to put it.
I guess the boundaries of Siam represent the limit of the area which the Bangkok régime had managed to rob in sporadic raids.
Thai studies in Sydney
Unless my eyesight is failing me – there’s no Laos on this map – only a united Siam.
And no Bangkok dominant – not easy to even see where Bangkok is !!
Is this map past – or futuristic ?
Fourth International Conference on Lao Studies
Greetings,
The 4th International Conference on Lao Studies, which was convened at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, USA, from April 19-21, 2013, was successfully completed yesterday. There were 125 presenters organized into 38 panels at the conference, and a total of 250 people attended. There were many presentations of interest. For example, there were panels related to hydropower dam development, large-scale economic land concessions, the impacts of UXOs, resettlement issues, and swidden and other agriculture in Laos. There were also round table panels focused on the ongoing impact of Sombath Somphone and the present circumstances of ethnic minorities/indigenous peoples in Laos. Bruce Shoemaker made a presentation about Sombath Somphone just before Yves Goudineau’s keynote address, which was focused on ethnicity and resettlement issues in Laos.
The conference program, and all the abstracts from the conference, can be found at:
http://seasia.wisc.edu/Lao%20Studies/LaoConferenceHomepage.htm
An edited book with a selection of the best papers from the conference will be produced in the future.
Stay tuned for the 5th International Conference on Lao Studies, which will be held at Thammasat University in Bangkok, Thailand in 2016.
Cheers,
Ian Baird
Co-Chair
4th International Conference on Lao Studies
Colonialism and ethnic conflict in Burma
you’re joking right (?) or being sarcastic.
Why Thailand needs its king
notdisappointed, I have only spend a brief amount of time on this site and in the few comment sections I have read I consistently notice that your comments add nothing to the discussion at hand. You must realize that your comment provides no reasonable argument for your position. I for one am interested in this debate, and I would benefit from reading articulate comments from both sides of the issue. You raise the question, “Is there a need for 112?” Please, elaborate. What exactly is the need for Article 112?
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
You need to relax. The discussion is about the Article 112 law, and views regarding Joe Gordon;s imprisonment. This is not the appropriate forum for airing your hostile views towards religion.
Alex’s views (if they are indeed similar to how you assume them to be) are different from those who support Article 112 because he is not calling for the arbitrary imprisonment of those who have a different view from him, as far as we can tell from his post.
Interestingly, you seem to have little problem harassing someone who has a different view from yourself.
Don’t forget home
Thailand will overcome the division only if:
– When Thailand’s politicians and police rise to the will of the people and not sworn to the a felon in Dubai;
– and when the police finally stops struggling against its own people;
– If the police can ‘protect and serve’ independently and freely and not be politicized;
– If human rights and freedom of speech are respected and the ‘red’ class no longer wants to play “democratic majority”
– When truth and justice, help and cooperation meets people’s lives not the wishes of one man in flight and his close group who try to bring back democratic tyranny.
– Monarchy only has a chance if selfish interest reformed themselves through the w2ill of the silent majority and withdraws from the power of democratic and parliamentary tyranny –
Thailand had begun this process – but liberal democracy was hijacked for the benefit of one man’s ego and to further enrich himself and his cronies, until he was finally ousted and is now bent on revenge using his money and puppets in the puea thai party, the udd and his stormtroopers to whitewash his corruption; even if his actions cause division within society.
Thai spirits not welcome in Myanmar
Burmeseness on the other hand most certainly does not include phallic worship… “To large male erections.”
Seen a Bago Medaw (Lady Mother of Bago) nat shrine in front of a restaurant but within its gates in Bago.
One European tourist of a one track minded variety once wrote he saw huge representations of the male organ at the gates of Mandalay City Wall – a solitary large teak pillar with the gate sign in vermilion and gold at the top!
Colonialism and ethnic conflict in Burma
You wish.
Not for the lack of trying of course. The Fourth Burmese, sorry, Myanmar Empire? Same chance to succeed as the Thousand Year Reich I should imagine.
Proxy drug barons/warlords some already in govt as USDP ministers, or better still if nationalist leaders can be bought. Dress up and show up at Naypyidaw. Let’s share the loot. And the ordinary folk? Let them eat frog. The mainstream Bamar have already done it. Famous example? Still busy receiving awards, this time her great ally our ‘reformist’ president too.