The Democrat Party changed the constitution without a referendum, and so can PT Party.
(IMO, there’s an insidious trap in the new referendum rules which require a quorum of more than 50% turnout, as there is little incentive for opponents of the referendum proposal to vote NO when strategically their cause is better served by them not even bothering to turn up and vote)
“But what would be wrong to have a referendum? The Constitution does not disallow it.”
This is false – it is illegal to amend the Constitution by referendum as per Section 291 of the Constitution. Please read it.
“The Constitutional Court said that to make any changes, amendments, revisons to the Constitution, the people should be involved. It is their Constitution.”
PTP last year proposed amending Section 291 – and no other section – to allow for a referendum.
But certain individuals made certain claims under Section 68, so the proposal didn’t go any further. Abhisit also said he wanted it deliberated in Parliament section by section, so PTP decided to compromise.
Agreed we must lay our own imperial ghost to rest. Does that mean however Balkanisation is an acceptable solution as Sai Latt appears to be hinting at? Does this remind you of glasnost leading to the collapse of the USSR?
It took massive foreign intervention for the actual Balkanisation of Yugoslavia. The plot thickens.
Are we foretelling the collapse of all historic regional contiguous land empires?
As a Bamar of mixed ancestry myself from the Bamar heartlands Balkanisation of Burma is unacceptable and I think I speak for the majority regardless of political colour. So it’s down to all of us to find an enduring political solution to the union problem. The most important step must be to get rid of the ruling chauvinist militaristic clique.
I’d like to see any country’s history written from the “peoples perspective”. Don’t they say it is written by the victors? Unlikely to change for a while anywhere in the world methinks.
But what would be wrong to have a referendum? The Constitution does not disallow it. And if thaksin and his pt are sincere and are so sure of their majority – why shouldn’t we have a referendum?
The Constitutional Court said that to make any changes, amendments, revisons to the Constitution, the people should be involved. It is their Constitution.
And I don’t trust the pt with regard to and their sincerity, to lead the way towards democracy in Thailand.
johninbkk and bitl,
Firstly I never said I was against democracy. I went on a tangent to say that democracy when based on elections and majority vote could and have led to to “democratic tyranny” or a so-called “tyranny of the majority”. Hence my listings of democractic countries who have had free democratic elections and through those elections have voted into office pillars of democratic values.
That is what I am against. And that is what I see Thailand under the influence of thaksin will be headed towards.
Your simple answers are as you say, quite, simple. Their democracy hasn’t protected me as an individual when: they ram through a non-transparent B2trilion budget that was never explained for what and how its to be spent; a B300Billion also with no details or explaination; when we are moving towards a facist police state where thaksin controls the law enforcement system (all that’s left is to reduce and circumvent the power of the judicary); undermining the Constitution to make it more amenable to parliamentary and democratic dictatorship.
Sorry I’m not naive enough to believe that they are doing to roll-back the Constitution to make it more democratic. Not when my eyes are open to their brand of democracy.
@ cod this article is by far the best I’ve ever read from you.
the first time that one can recognize one’s own opinion. The last posts in NM and Prachatai were less helpful or inspiring
Nice that you see that something is wrong in “your circles”
Now is the time to speak out and to be open and honest
– smoke bombs and window dressing not help Thailand!
Thailand will overcome the division only if:
– When Thailand’s military raises to the will of the people and not sworn to the king
– and when the military finally stops struggling against its own people
– If the courts can judge independently and freely and not be politicized
– If human rights are respected and the upper class no longer wants to play “Goody Two Shoes”
– When truth and justice, help and cooperation meets people’s lives
— Your monarchy only has a chance if they reformed themselves and withdraws from the power —
Thailand have already begun – finally ousted but the eternal yesterday and does not try to hold on to something to which nothing is to be noted
Cod,
If you write an article for New Mandala or Prachatai you should respond to any follow up articles there and not refer me to Twitter. I assume you wrote those articles JUST to promote your new book. I am considering asking NM and Prachatai to ban any further articles you write as they are discussion forums and not just for your publicity.
I am disgusted by some comments I read here… Quote Doubting Thomas
“Traveled with a US passport in his possession. In other words he entered Thailand not as a US citizen on vacation but as a Thai on a Thai passport. More smoke and mirrors”. I wish this man will spend at least 1 year in Thai prison. I will pray Buddha tonight for my wish become true.
Joe have been inprisoned for his opinions, not because a criminal issue. I wish you will rot to hell Thomas and I will pray for that.
1. You bring up a good point. If the King can be criticized: why not thaksin? Why can’t he (thaksin) also be criticized? Why during his regime had the media been muzzled?
2. Easy to make leading accusations and questions; but hard to prove convincingly and incontrovertibly. If not then one is howling at the moon.
I just realised alot of messages in this and my last post are directed at me. I am not in the habit of commenting on my own articles but if you want, I will gladly respond on twitter. I can be found @fishmyman.
Do you trust the PT with dealing changing the constitution?
I can’t remember how the constitution parsed the words in its judgement, but suggested that a referendum would be a good idea, I’m not sure if they actually said it was a legal requirement.
However what’s wrong with having one even if its nit necessary? It would require the PT to be fully transparent on what it wants to change and the mechanism for the change.
Is that not a good thing?
Nick in his role as PT spokesman pointed out that they have a mandate to change it from the election. It’s a pretty bogus stance.
BTW in the link if you look at page 158 of the nationwide survey you will see a plurality of about 27% are happy with the 2007 charter, and another 40% can be characterized as indifferent.
I am not sure if anyone has said a referendum is a legal requirement, but is certainly a moral obligation to do so given the circumstances.
This essay of mine is a little over 3 years old. But it should compliment Ko Sait Latt’s.
He described me as ‘a Burman’.
DNA-wise, I would be a Bama-Mon-Manipuran (and only my grandmas, great-grandmas, great-great-grandmas, etc knew what else!).
I used to be one of the staunchest nationalists I knew, having grown up across the palace moat on West Moat road in Mandalay. I identified myself with the Bama, in terms of my political and cultural identify – notice the tense here.
Have fun reading this most irreverent essay of mine.
Hi Raymond, couple of questions:
1. Who and/or what agency has confirmed the accuracy of said ‘Press book’?
2. Who documented this so-called role?
3. Which prison and which section of the prison was he placed? (This will show how “hardened” the other prisoners are.)
4. What was his menu for the over one-year period he was incarcerated? (The US consulate could have sent him a daily ‘care package’ if he had requested.)
5. As a US citizen is he immune for the laws of other sovereign nations? (Apparently according to the charges, it was not a legal activity in Thailand. US citizenship does not excuse nor give you immunity from the laws of other sovereign countries.)
6. Would it make a difference which passport he used? – Not at all, if he had done something illegal in any country that he committed an offense.
For an e-publication that seeks to have balanced views and freedom of expression; I am beginning to notice that it’s filled with like-minded posters who hound, denigrate, downplay, criticize, or caustic witticism the thoughts of those whose views do not jive with their own.
Joe, sorry about your incarceration, cannot say what your charge was as the interview is not clear.
May I make a suggestion? AS you support your local red chapter; could you have them seek more transparency in the B300Bn flood budget as well as the B2trillion in vague logistic budget rammed through parliament with pt’s majority.
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Why Thailand needs its king
The Democrat Party changed the constitution without a referendum, and so can PT Party.
(IMO, there’s an insidious trap in the new referendum rules which require a quorum of more than 50% turnout, as there is little incentive for opponents of the referendum proposal to vote NO when strategically their cause is better served by them not even bothering to turn up and vote)
Why Thailand needs its king
“But what would be wrong to have a referendum? The Constitution does not disallow it.”
This is false – it is illegal to amend the Constitution by referendum as per Section 291 of the Constitution. Please read it.
“The Constitutional Court said that to make any changes, amendments, revisons to the Constitution, the people should be involved. It is their Constitution.”
PTP last year proposed amending Section 291 – and no other section – to allow for a referendum.
But certain individuals made certain claims under Section 68, so the proposal didn’t go any further. Abhisit also said he wanted it deliberated in Parliament section by section, so PTP decided to compromise.
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
Are you suggesting that the official policy of the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs is anti-Article 112?
If so, from what alternate universe do you hail, and what is Superman’s origin story there?
Colonialism and ethnic conflict in Burma
Agreed we must lay our own imperial ghost to rest. Does that mean however Balkanisation is an acceptable solution as Sai Latt appears to be hinting at? Does this remind you of glasnost leading to the collapse of the USSR?
It took massive foreign intervention for the actual Balkanisation of Yugoslavia. The plot thickens.
Are we foretelling the collapse of all historic regional contiguous land empires?
As a Bamar of mixed ancestry myself from the Bamar heartlands Balkanisation of Burma is unacceptable and I think I speak for the majority regardless of political colour. So it’s down to all of us to find an enduring political solution to the union problem. The most important step must be to get rid of the ruling chauvinist militaristic clique.
Colonialism and ethnic conflict in Burma
I’d like to see any country’s history written from the “peoples perspective”. Don’t they say it is written by the victors? Unlikely to change for a while anywhere in the world methinks.
Colonialism and ethnic conflict in Burma
Perhaps Than Shwe’s wife Kyaing Kyaing, an ethnic Pa O woman, is not the best example for illustrating Bamar chauvinism.
Why Thailand needs its king
But what would be wrong to have a referendum? The Constitution does not disallow it. And if thaksin and his pt are sincere and are so sure of their majority – why shouldn’t we have a referendum?
The Constitutional Court said that to make any changes, amendments, revisons to the Constitution, the people should be involved. It is their Constitution.
And I don’t trust the pt with regard to and their sincerity, to lead the way towards democracy in Thailand.
Why Thailand needs its kings
johninbkk and bitl,
Firstly I never said I was against democracy. I went on a tangent to say that democracy when based on elections and majority vote could and have led to to “democratic tyranny” or a so-called “tyranny of the majority”. Hence my listings of democractic countries who have had free democratic elections and through those elections have voted into office pillars of democratic values.
That is what I am against. And that is what I see Thailand under the influence of thaksin will be headed towards.
Your simple answers are as you say, quite, simple. Their democracy hasn’t protected me as an individual when: they ram through a non-transparent B2trilion budget that was never explained for what and how its to be spent; a B300Billion also with no details or explaination; when we are moving towards a facist police state where thaksin controls the law enforcement system (all that’s left is to reduce and circumvent the power of the judicary); undermining the Constitution to make it more amenable to parliamentary and democratic dictatorship.
Sorry I’m not naive enough to believe that they are doing to roll-back the Constitution to make it more democratic. Not when my eyes are open to their brand of democracy.
It’s that simple.
Don’t forget home
@ cod this article is by far the best I’ve ever read from you.
the first time that one can recognize one’s own opinion. The last posts in NM and Prachatai were less helpful or inspiring
Nice that you see that something is wrong in “your circles”
Now is the time to speak out and to be open and honest
– smoke bombs and window dressing not help Thailand!
Thailand will overcome the division only if:
– When Thailand’s military raises to the will of the people and not sworn to the king
– and when the military finally stops struggling against its own people
– If the courts can judge independently and freely and not be politicized
– If human rights are respected and the upper class no longer wants to play “Goody Two Shoes”
– When truth and justice, help and cooperation meets people’s lives
— Your monarchy only has a chance if they reformed themselves and withdraws from the power —
Thailand have already begun – finally ousted but the eternal yesterday and does not try to hold on to something to which nothing is to be noted
Don’t forget home
Cod,
If you write an article for New Mandala or Prachatai you should respond to any follow up articles there and not refer me to Twitter. I assume you wrote those articles JUST to promote your new book. I am considering asking NM and Prachatai to ban any further articles you write as they are discussion forums and not just for your publicity.
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
I am disgusted by some comments I read here… Quote Doubting Thomas
“Traveled with a US passport in his possession. In other words he entered Thailand not as a US citizen on vacation but as a Thai on a Thai passport. More smoke and mirrors”. I wish this man will spend at least 1 year in Thai prison. I will pray Buddha tonight for my wish become true.
Joe have been inprisoned for his opinions, not because a criminal issue. I wish you will rot to hell Thomas and I will pray for that.
Is Malaysia’s electoral system ready for GE13
[…] This article first appeared in New Mandala. […]
Paul Handley replies to comments
1. You bring up a good point. If the King can be criticized: why not thaksin? Why can’t he (thaksin) also be criticized? Why during his regime had the media been muzzled?
2. Easy to make leading accusations and questions; but hard to prove convincingly and incontrovertibly. If not then one is howling at the moon.
Don’t forget home
Hello Roy,
I just realised alot of messages in this and my last post are directed at me. I am not in the habit of commenting on my own articles but if you want, I will gladly respond on twitter. I can be found @fishmyman.
Have a pleasant day!
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
French translation of the interview:
http://liberez-somyot.over-blog.com/article-une-interview-de-l-ancien-prisonnier-politique-pour-lese-majeste-joe-gordon-par-pavin-chachavalpongp-117137113.html
Why Thailand needs its king
Do you trust the PT with dealing changing the constitution?
I can’t remember how the constitution parsed the words in its judgement, but suggested that a referendum would be a good idea, I’m not sure if they actually said it was a legal requirement.
However what’s wrong with having one even if its nit necessary? It would require the PT to be fully transparent on what it wants to change and the mechanism for the change.
Is that not a good thing?
Nick in his role as PT spokesman pointed out that they have a mandate to change it from the election. It’s a pretty bogus stance.
BTW in the link if you look at page 158 of the nationwide survey you will see a plurality of about 27% are happy with the 2007 charter, and another 40% can be characterized as indifferent.
I am not sure if anyone has said a referendum is a legal requirement, but is certainly a moral obligation to do so given the circumstances.
Colonialism and ethnic conflict in Burma
This essay of mine is a little over 3 years old. But it should compliment Ko Sait Latt’s.
He described me as ‘a Burman’.
DNA-wise, I would be a Bama-Mon-Manipuran (and only my grandmas, great-grandmas, great-great-grandmas, etc knew what else!).
I used to be one of the staunchest nationalists I knew, having grown up across the palace moat on West Moat road in Mandalay. I identified myself with the Bama, in terms of my political and cultural identify – notice the tense here.
Have fun reading this most irreverent essay of mine.
http://www.maungzarni.com/2012/10/confronting-demons.html
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
Hi Raymond, couple of questions:
1. Who and/or what agency has confirmed the accuracy of said ‘Press book’?
2. Who documented this so-called role?
3. Which prison and which section of the prison was he placed? (This will show how “hardened” the other prisoners are.)
4. What was his menu for the over one-year period he was incarcerated? (The US consulate could have sent him a daily ‘care package’ if he had requested.)
5. As a US citizen is he immune for the laws of other sovereign nations? (Apparently according to the charges, it was not a legal activity in Thailand. US citizenship does not excuse nor give you immunity from the laws of other sovereign countries.)
6. Would it make a difference which passport he used? – Not at all, if he had done something illegal in any country that he committed an offense.
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
No way would the Ministry of Foreign Affairs pay Doubting Thomas; but they would pay his doubters.
Interview with Joe Gordon: Lèse majesté and democracy
For an e-publication that seeks to have balanced views and freedom of expression; I am beginning to notice that it’s filled with like-minded posters who hound, denigrate, downplay, criticize, or caustic witticism the thoughts of those whose views do not jive with their own.
Joe, sorry about your incarceration, cannot say what your charge was as the interview is not clear.
May I make a suggestion? AS you support your local red chapter; could you have them seek more transparency in the B300Bn flood budget as well as the B2trillion in vague logistic budget rammed through parliament with pt’s majority.