Image source
While the recent Hitler related stories Thailand has encountered have evoked public discussion on taste, sensitivity, education and freedom of expression, there is a missed opportunity to engage in a dialogue concerning the Thai infatuation with figures of authority. One only needs to peruse the message boards around the articles shedding light on the Hitler controversies to find regular, everyday Thais defending their infatuation with the moustachioed murderer.
What should be said is that no Thai contributor to this discussion seems to be wholly neglecting the atrocities committed by the Third Reich; many of those defending the murals/t-shirts/chicken store/music video acknowledge that what Hitler did was ‘very very bad.’ But some have asked if the things that Hitler did were anything worse than the wholesale slaughter the European colonists (recurring theme) wrecked on the Native Americans, or the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Others take a more historical position and ask why Thais should bare any antagonism towards Nazi Germany when its main adversaries were Imperial Britain and France, Siam/Thailand’s two greatest adversaries in the 19th and 20th centuries.
Needless to say that such defences have sparked numerous debates online and offline. But the one defence that people often ignore, with some even going to so far as to ridicule it, is the line of thought that while Hitler undoubtedly did ‘some’ bad, the good that he did for Germany was much more. After all, this was the man that brought a country teetering on the verge of Weimar induced economic collapse to world conqueror in less than a decade. For the purposes of this piece, let us ignore the fact that this argument completely holds no water, that the reparations for both world wars would last well into the 20th century, that if it wasn’t for the Truman doctrine and Marshall Plan, German economic recovery would have taken much longer. For the purpose of this article, let us instead focus on this Thai infatuation with the strongman.
If we take into account what has been summarized previously by your humble servant the argument boils down to this. Some Thais are willing to say:
- Yes we know Hitler committed various atrocities including streamlining the murder of over 6 million people, the extermination of the European Jewry, the long term consequence of their relocation etc.
- Yes we know that Hitler started a war that wrecked the known world, whose repercussions lasted until the 1990s.
- Yes we know all this, but even despite all that, Hitler is/was a great man because he brought stability and economic stability to the people of Germany.
The argument previously stated may seem absurd but this is not the only time that Thai people have been infatuated with strong men. Even today, with all our historical records intact, Thais have a propensity for worshiping ‘stability and sovereignty’ over rights and liberty. For example if one asks the generation that lived during the time of Sarit Thanarat their impressions of the strongman, the answer is overwhelmingly positive. Some even go so far as to say that someone like Sarit is needed right now to stabilize the current situation. What they conveniently forget when it comes to Sarit is the regime of murder and extra judicial killings, the corrupt pretense of democracy, the graft, the willful suppression and brainwashing of his people. It is not as if these crimes aren’t taught in Thai history books, it is just that ‘stability’ always takes precedence.
There are many circumstances that could lead a nation to place such high value on stability. All would doubtlessly need further investigation as they would be just conjecture at this point. Hypothesis can range from the value of stability in the wake of European Imperialism, where our neighbours relative instability led to their being colonized. Other theories could involve the need for stability as a result of communist expansion in Indochina, where strongmen and stability were needed to counter the rise of communism. Maybe it is just that our country has been so brain washed by military coups, strong men governments, graft and institutionalized education that the only thing that matters is uniformity, conformity and stability.
This Hitler infatuation may be ignominious at its surface but it is deeply troubling at its core. For if Thailand has continued to hold this infatuation with strong men and would still price freedom beneath stability, then that bodes ill for the future of democracy in the country as well as the rights, liberty and property of her people.
“It is not as if these crimes aren’t taught in Thai history books…”
It’s not so much whether they are taught, but rather how they are taught, I would say.
I think this piece should be read in conjunction with Thongchai Winichakul’s recent critique of Thai style history. education.
http://prachatai.com/english/node/3649
0
0
Oh no it’s Cod again…
Never has a writer been better named when it comes to philosophising…
And he seems to have missed out that Thailand, to all intents and purposes, declared war on the Allies in WW2 and that it was the Soviet Union which ultimately defeated the Nazis.
But what’s a little bit of cod-historicising in an article written by someone who calls themselves Cod but doesn’t seem to understand the basics of constructing an argument.
0
0
Khun Cod, I summarise your article into two arguments:
ARGUMENT 1:
(1) Thai people are infatuated with strong leaders (because they can bring stability and economic prosperity).
(2) For Thai people, despite his evil deeds, Hitler is a strong leader.
Therefore,
(3) Thai people are infatuated with Hitler.
ARGUMENT 2:
Thai people’s infatuation with Hitler makes them think it’s okay to put up banners with him among superheroes, or name a fried chicken shop after him, etc. (This one is more like a claim than an argument.)
————————
Let us consider ARGUMENT 1 first. I think (1) is over-generalised. If “Thai people” include university students, then surely strong men like Thanom Kittikachorn and Prapas Jarusathian were not very well-liked by “Thai people”. If “Thai people” include the Bangkok middle class, then surely strong men like Suchinda Kraprayoon were not well-liked either.
So being a strong leader alone, it seems, is not enough to make Thai people “infatuated” with him. It falls on you then, Khun Cod, to tell us, firstly, what other qualities, apart from strength, a leader must have in order to make Thai people “infatuated” with him; and secondly, why you think Hitler has these qualities.
I doubt (2) too. First of all, I doubt that Thai people consider Hitler’s positive impact on the German economy when they think of Hitler. To me, most Thai people who know Hitler seem to know him in the same way as they know Che Guevara – i.e. as a symbol whose meaning is unclear. Secondly, it’s hard to imagine that people would be “infatuated” with a leader just because he’s strong, despite knowing that he killed over 10 million people. There might be some such people (just as there are insane people), but I doubt there are very many of them.
Now let us consider ARGUMENT 2. Even if we grant that Thai people in general are really “infatuated” with Hitler, I don’t think the likeness of Hitler in the “superheroes” banner was painted out of infatuation. Neither do I think that the Hitler-themed chicken shop was a result of infatuation with Hitler. I think these were done by people who know Hitler through pop culture, and not through history books. I doubt that half the Thai people who wear Che Guevara t-shirts have any strong opinion about him. The same goes for Thai people who do Nazi salute or paint Hitler among cartoon characters.
0
0
Thanks for tackling such a delicate topic Cod, which, seeing as the issue continues to arise, needs a broader discussion such as that you’ve started.
Cheers,
A.
0
0
Good article, touching delicate subject, well present on the problem and counter arguments, and short.
The problem seem to be that Thai history is full of strong men, be it lords or men with big guns. But Thai education does not allow actual analysis or criticize of these strong men.
As Professor Thongchai stated, “We don’t know the world, we don’t know our neighbours, we don’t know our region because we are so Thai-centric. We believe in [our] superiority, our being exceptional, our never having been colonized.”
0
0
It’s an astute observation. Thais do seem to have an inherent insecurity that drives them to embrace stability above all things – even if that stability is fundamentally evil.
A culture of collective ‘Thainess’ trumps individual thought and independent action. Subservience and dependence hold less risk and greater reward. There is only danger in standing alone.
I imagine after a few generations of this it would be quite hard to think otherwise; dangerous even. Consequently, it makes them poor democrats. In this kind of culture there’s more to be gained by taking sides than standing alone, whatever one’s personal reservations might be. The concepts of ‘big, bigger, biggest’ become more important than ‘good, better, best’.
While westerners like to think red shirts embrace Thaksin because he supposedly represents the liberal democratic ideals we’re more used to, it’s more likely because he’s the richest and biggest bully on the block.
Until the education system – indeed the entire system – empowers individualism, independent thought and action from a young age then I fear little will change.
0
0
There are a few points that i would like to comment on, especially the use of absolutes in your comment here.
While indeed there is the notion of “Thainess” existing, this idea is increasingly challenged, on a broader non-academic base especially by many Red Shirts. While this occurs less on UDD stages than on free Red Shirt stages, in more informal discussions under Red Shirts of all groups the discussion is quite open nowadays. But also the topics in UDD schools get increasingly structural.
Also your rather simple analyses on why the Red Shirts may be drawn to Thaksin does not reflect the complexities of the Thaksin/Red Shirt relationship, which has been quite fluid and has been, and still is, a development process. While initially a significant factor for the support for Thaksin may have been the strongman factor (especially the drug war issue), there were other factors involved as well, such as aspirations by his supporters to economically and politically catch up with more advanced countries, which Thaksin especially through his populist policies symbolized for them.
Over the years of conflict though there is a clear rise of increasing political awareness to be seen, in which the discussion moved more and more into structural issues (separation of institutions, role of the military, etc), which, as we have seen on numerous occasions (such as during the Red Shirts’ anger and disappointment over Thaksin’s speech on May 19, 2012), brought the Red Shirts in conflict with Thaksin and the purely political wing of the Pueah Thai party. While it is quite difficult to describe Thaksin as a paragon of liberal democracy, the Red Shirts’ demands on the system are increasingly resembling what one day may lead to such a system in Thailand.
As to expressions of admiration for Hitler – in Thailand this is much less than for example in India – the biggest dysfunctional yet somewhat miraculously working democracy in the world.
It has been countless times that when in India i was asked where i am from, and answered “Germany”, and had to deal then with the enormous cringe factor when people stated with shining eyes how great Hitler was, and just would not want to listen to my arguments why he was more of the opposite.
0
0
Nick, thanks. Yes, I agree my argument suffers from a degree of bluntness. Sometimes I need to sacrifice the finer points and subtleties to drive home my main point.
It is heartening that there is some complexity to the relationship between the red shirts and Thaksin, which is probably some indicator of individualism and independence. However, it strikes me that the red shirts and Thaksin are using each other for their own quite different ends rather than a common march towards a liberal democracy. Thaksin needs their votes while the red shirts enjoy the dividends of that support – an unholy alliance, as it were. Long may it last.
I’ve said this several times before on this forum, but I really do believe Thaksin still suffers from ‘big man’ syndrome despite the successful march of red shirt aspirations. However, having woken up the peasants he’s going to have a hard time putting them back to bed again. I’m not sure he’s thought that through yet, or even appreciates what that will mean.
0
0
I wonder how much of ‘Hitler chic’ has to do with the swastika symbol, which is still revered throughout many parts of Asia as the ancient sanskrit symbol of auspiciousness. For most westerners our main association with the swastika is through Nazism, but this would not be true for Thais.
0
0
“Over the years of conflict though there is a clear rise of increasing political awareness to be seen””
Nick, you are spot on with this, especially this statement. My Wife, who was born in Chiang Dao, Chiang Mai in 1956, never paid any attention at all to Thai politics until 2006, and then in 2008 she really started watching what was going on, and started getting emotional about things in April 2009. That is true about a lot of the people around here. Of course, the Shinawatras are liked cause they are from the Hood, but that is not why they favor them. The TRT did a lot of good up here, villages that got electricity for the first time, living up to his promise about paved roads into each village, it is a large list.
0
0
Nick
Was your comment on India ironic?
There was only ever one country were Hitler was genuinely popular and I believe that’s your homeland.
As far as I’m aware India has still to place anyone similar to Hitler in power and having visited India on a dozen occasions I can’t concur with your anecdotal evidence.
0
0
I wish i could say that my comment was ironic. No, it wasn’t (i have spent in the last 25 years about 2 years in India, and have close family relations to India since i was a small child).
Hitler is enormously popular in India. First because of that fuzzy “Aryan” issue – the Vedas being seen as an Aryan religion, and Hitler highlighting this Aryan thing, which at the time was very popular in the German “voelkish” movement (and of course completely misunderstood)- one of the roots of the NSDAP.
Another reason is that during the independence struggle against Britain some hardcore factions have looked for Hitler for support, such as Subhas Chandra Bose whose Indian Legion was attached to the SS.
And lastly, India has a very strong homegrown right wing element, in organizations such as RSS, Shiv Sena, VHP, etc. Some of these organizations are also very much on the issue of “racial purity” under the guise of “Hindutva”, and make natural admirers of Hitler.
0
0
Nick
But still, the Indians don’t come close to the 1930s Germans if we’re comparing love for Hitler…
So yes, a German condemning a tiny minority of 1billion Indians for having an infatuation with Hitler seems, well, dripping in irony.
0
0
Excuse me please, am i now reduced to being just “a German” here by you? Isn’t that somewhat…racist?
I have been born in 1968, by the way, and wasn’t there in the Germany of the 1930’s.
It is not exactly a tiny majority in India, if you look at the fact that the BJP was in power from 1998 to 2004 – a right wing party which is part of the Hindutva movement and that has been implicated directly in several massacres against Muslims, and is allied with the fascist Shiv Sena, founded by Bal Thackeray, who was an open admirer of Hitler.
And just for you – no, i do not compare Nazi Germany and India. I am just stating that there are far more people in India who admire Hitler than here in Thailand.
0
0
Nick
No, I didn’t “reduce you to just being a German”.
I simply pointed out that you are a German.
Which you are.
That’s not “racist” and you’ve fallen into Vichai N’s trap of denigrating those who actually suffer the genuine consequences of racism by claiming it happened to you just because someone dared to point out your nationality.
I know all about the BJP and I know all about Gandhi’s comments regarding Hitler and I know all about Narendra Modi. You’re assuming that you’re sole source on India – a rather strange position.
And I’d add that the BJP are more nationalist and fascistic than outright Nazi. They were also elected and then were kicked out by the electorate – they never established a dictatorship.
And if you’re equating the BJP to the Nazis it’s curious that previously you’ve attacked those who’ve called the PAD fascist, always stating “it’s more complicated than that”.
So, I’ll put it to you here – do you consider Pitak Siam, the PAD and all their offshoots fascistic?
0
0
Nick
Couple more points – how many years of fascistic military dictatorship has India had since achieving independence?
How many years of fascistic military dictatorship has Thailand had since 1947?
Can we also compare the number of Thai and Indian coups and the number of Thai and Indian constitutions since 1947?
India certainly has its faults and flaws but compared to Thailand its been a beacon of political democracy since the later 1940s, not least the individual Indian states’ ability to elect governments’ independent of central government whilst Thailand still has the vast majority of its regional governors appointed.
Surely you’d recognise that there are more “democrats” in India than in Thailand?
0
0
Don’t try to wriggle your way out of you having made a racist comment here. You didn’t just point out that i am a German, you stated that, if i may remind you, “a German condemning a tiny minority of 1billion Indians for having an infatuation with Hitler seems, well, dripping in irony”.
If you cannot see beyond my nationality in this debate than this betrays a racist attitude.
Racism starts with the kind of attitude you displayed here, consequences only follow such attitudes when individuals are not seen anymore as individuals but judged along ethnic or national entities. You just climbed the first step of that ladder here.
As to your question – while there are elements in the yellow shirts who could be described as fascistic, the PAD, Pitak Siam, etc per se are not fascistic. Certain key indicators are missing in their ideologies to describe them as such, for example the clear leadership principle that is integral part of fascism and national socialism. Also their ultra-royalism stands in conflict with fascist and nazi ideologies.
What is rather more descriptive of these groups is that they have no coherent ideology at all beyond a fuzzy ulra-royalist and extreme nationalist ideology, and their hatred against Thaksin and the Red Shirts.
While Thailand has a certain problem with Thai-centric historiography (see Thongchai’s recent speech), and resulting feelings of national superiority, this has not translated in any recent race based rioting or mass murders (smaller incidents though have taken place).
Even the Yellow Shirts attempted throughout to include ethnic minorities into their movement, which is also contrary to their presumed fascist tendencies.
In India though race (and religion) based rioting and mass slaughter are endemic. In some way the still ongoing cast practice of not just spiritual but also physical purity and exclusion in Hinduism is conductive to such racist tendencies.
The Shiv Sena in India though has always been openly fascistic, or even more extreme. Bal Thackeray has on many occasions stated his admiration for Hitler, and his wish that India should have a system modeled on Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany.
It is more difficult with the BJP. While the ideology they theoretically adhere to – Hindutva – is an ideology of racial superiority. In practice though, while they were in government, they did not follow this. Which, by the way, was strongly criticized by what many assume to have been their parent organization – the RSS.
And no, you assume again, i am neither “the sole source on India”, nor have i stated so anywhere. Read what i write, please, and not what you imagine that i have written, but have not.
What i have written is that i have lifelong family relations with India, and have spent 2 years of my life there. Other than my Indian friends, I have western friends who spent much longer than I in India, speak Hindi fluently (my Hindi was never more than rudimentary, just enough for the most basic survival conversations, and most of that i have forgotten), and know much more than I.
0
0
“he brought stability and economic stability…”
0
0
How about the Osama Bin Laden mudflaps on transport trucks…. as well as — perhaps even more oddly– those mudflaps featuring Andy Gibb from the Bee Gees.
0
0
No, it’s not Andy Gibb – it’s Al Pacino playing Serpico.
Maybe New Mandala could publish an overwrought op-ed from Cod on Al’s place in Thai popular iconography?
0
0
Did Usama ibn Ladin also bring stability? Is someone like Al Pacino needed in the present situation?
I think some Thais may see Al Pacino, Ibn Ladin and Hitler, through the distance of space and/or of time, simply as pop-cultural iconic bad guys more akin to Darth Vader than to Sarit Thanarat. Consider that the Hitler they know really is a cinematic representation, a recurring villain in a number of imported movies. Sensationalist journalism has been giving Ibn Ladin a similar treatment.
(The same probably doesn’t go for Hitler’s status in India, though.)
When I was a schoolboy in late 1980s’ Czechoslovakia, Hitler was a point of reference, not just a bad guy but the purest evil in history. We were taught about Nazi crimes almost daily. I remember thinking of the WW2 as the end of history, a singular event after which all of the world embraced “democracy” (meaning that the heads of states were not all that powerful any more) and “socialism” (I don’t remember how I understood this term then, but it did have something to do with “nationalization”). Clearly, my Thai contemporaries under Prem would have none of that. I certainly dare not claim this makes their elementary education inferior to mine.
0
0
And here i was breaking into “How Deep is Your Love” when i saw those mudflaps.
0
0
During the many years I’ve spent in Thailand, I’ve often been shocked by the quite widespread admiration of Hitler among Thais. Eventually I reached this conclusion : Hitler was seen as the defender of indigenous rights, of grossly impoverished Germans standing up to the undoubtedly unjust Treaty of Versailles (shades of the Bowring Treaty against Siam). I.e. – it is a pre-World War Two view of Hitler, when he was in fact greatly admired by even many in the West, including Britain’s King Edward The Eighth.
0
0
” … I’ve often been shocked by the quite widespread admiration of Hitler among Thais.” Chris Beale is shocked, he says. But even more “widespread admiration” among Thais linger for Thaksin. Could there be a connection … I must wonder?
0
0
Vichai
You should go and explain to the citizens of the Soviet Union (25million dead), Jews (6million dead) and European Gypsies (and the other groups murdered by their millions in Nazi death camps) your notion of a connection between Thaksin and Hitler.
The constant attempts by the delusional to connect Hitler to Thaksin is a denigration of the memory of the 10s of millions killed by the Nazis. It is as pathetic as it is degenerate.
0
0
Well they were both in bed with a Bush. Prescott for Hitler and his grandson Dubya for Thaksin.
My (perhaps simplistic and possibly incorrect) impression is that Hitler represents an anti-Western iconic symbol for a nation veering disturbingly (if understandably) close to open hatred of ‘whites’. At times I’m confronted by the hostile prejudice against the colour of my skin but then I remember I don’t much care for Christian two-faced invaders either.
Awhile back I posted an cartoon image from the movie Pocahontas with the chief saying “These white men are dangerous” and I was surprised by how many Likes it received.
Historically, that’s really very true. Perhaps the Thais are just remember more about geopolitical history than the West likes to forget.
0
0
Vichai’s (#10) poster was meant for Chris Beale but raised Frank-the-Mod’s hackles instead.
Chris Beale thinks himself ‘Thai-knowledgeable’ and ‘Thai-immersed’ enough to write that there is ‘widespread amiration of Hitler’ among Thais. More likely Chris Beale is drinking and getting drunk with the wrong Thai crowd, me thinks.
But you are right Frank the Mod. Thaksin’s 2,500 extrajudicial kills (all poor no-name Thais those 2,500 souls) could not be ‘Hitlerisque’ in scale or sheer malice.
0
0
Khun Vichai, you have latched onto your devil indeed. For killing, no Thai leader even comes close to Sarit. For corruption, most of the civilian leaders exceed Thaksin, especially Chatchai. And no civilian leader has come close to the depletion of assets that the military have done all along. Thaksin is barely on any of these scales.
0
0
I am not certain what Cliff Sloane points were, or, how accurate and reliable. But assuming what Cliff Sloane says are accurate: (a) Sarit was murderous than Thaksin, (b) Chatchai was more corrupt than Thaksin and (c) the military had caused more depletion of national treasury … then what? Thaksin has/had been responsible for and/or directed extra-judicial murders, rampant corruption and worse (still ongoing btw) at a scale that thus deserves judicial persecution and yes righteous punishment. Right Mr. Cliff Sloane?
0
0
Vichai N: What then can we make of the widespread admiration for the revered one?
0
0
Am not really sure the dimension of Ngana (#10.3) query. But if in Ngana’s household HMK Bhumibhol’s picture still hangs or is in display, then the reverence endures. But if as I suspect Ngana’s household had replaced HMK’s picture with Thaksin’s, then the reverence had been diminished in one household.
0
0
‘Asia Sentinel’ has a story out yesterday on the Dep. PM saying they will consider revising the school curriculum to include the Holocaust. What’s worrying is that they don’t teach any history at all beyond the local monarchy! http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5592&Itemid=392
0
0
This story was published by the Asia Sentinel without permission from the author (me) and has since been removed.
If you’re interested, my Hitler Chic article for Al Jazeera finally made its media entrance today:
http://m.aljazeera.com/story/20138916509337563
and on the Yahoo news wire, too:
http://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/thai-educators-grapple-nazi-imagery-093814991.html
0
0
I think you are reading to much into this Hitler thing.
Who else in history is so instantly recognizable.
Anyone can paint on a little toothbrush mustache comb their hair forward and do a Nazi salute and everyone knows who you are.
Its nothing to do with good or bad,
Elvis, Julius Cesar, Attila the Hun, don’t even come close.
0
0
We who were personally touched by the Nazi period have a heightened sensitivity that leads to our outrage at Thai historical ignorance. But consider that we ourselves may romanticize the “Che” image despite his resume of murder and atrocity. The murders are not comparable, I know, but the historical forgetfulness certainly is. Also, I do not know of a society in the world that does not honor the “strong leader”. There is a great line in a Serbian rock song called “Pit Bull” — “With all my strength and cunning, I do not need a brain!”
0
0
In the racial hierarchy and pecking-order of the Nazis, Thais and most Asians would be pretty low down the list anyway (“Untermenschen mit gelber Haut und Schlitzaugen” LOL), probably beneath the Jews or even the Gypsies, so it’s totally stupid for Thais and other Asians to admire Hitler and the Nazi ideology. Germans (whether they are Nazis or not) would find such behaviour totally ridiculous and oxymoronic!
FYI, I was born in Burma.
0
0
Still, the Nazis were in alliance with Japan, and a few thousand Indians had for a time been attached to the SS. And then, Nazi occultism and its search for Shambala, with Himmler even sending several expeditions to Tibet to search for the hidden kingdom…
Nazi Germany also supported many Arab states against the Brits, and even people like the Mufti of Jerusalem lived in Berlin throughout the war. There were even Muslims contingents in the SS. Until today Hitler is still quite popular in the middle east.
Nazi racial theories have always been a complete idiocy, pseudo-scientifically based on a period when anthropology went completely insane.
0
0
1. Geo-politics:
One could even say that if the Nazis, especially Hitler, hadn’t been too obsessed with racial ideology (it’s not just about the Jews), kept their ambitions closer to Europe (forget about teaming up with the Japs and getting involved in this Axis thing to achieve world hegemony etc.), most of Europe would probably be under German control. The Germans could have avoided confronting the Russians, which totally overextended their resources (besides, Hitler should have left Africa to the Italians (losers!) and told Rommel to come back to Germany a lot earlier!) Anyway, history can not be rewritten (except y the Chinese!) By the way, some Indians might harbour some kind of racist/fascist ideologies, but geo-politically speaking, modern day China reminds me more of Nazi Germany in a lot of different ways!
2. Fascism/Racism:
About the Hitler obsession and fascistoid tendencies amongst Asians and others: it is obvious that racism is not a “German invention” (although such efficient brutal genocide against the Jews and others was quite unique in modern history). I have lived in three different continents (Asia, Europe and North America) for extended periods of time and I definitely think racism is still quite prevalent amongst Asians (even if they live in the West!). Most people in the West, especially among the younger generation, are aware of the dangers and stupidity of such primitive tribal ethnic type of racism and most countries in the West are trying to achieve (at least on paper) a sort of multi-cultural mix where citizenship is not based on race o religion. Most countries in the Middle East and Asia are still far away from that ideal. In India the main obstruction to becoming a modern country is the caste system and this rubbish about being Aryan (with white threads if you are Brahmin!). I find it hypocritical that many Asians like to complain about white people discriminating at them, when at the same time they think white skin is “superior” (Burmese and Thais probbaly think dark-skinned Rohingyas are “Untermenschen” LOL) Skin-whitening creams are very popular (even in India), not to mention cosmetic surgery (nose jobs, eye jobs in South Korea for example).
In this day and age of the Higgs bosons and DNA manipulation, we should stop classifying humans by race or ethnicity (I am proud to be descended from amphibians) and personally I prefer rugged individualism to any kind of ant-like society following ideological pheromones based on ideology: fascist, communist or religious nonsense!
0
0
But then – the Nazis wouldn’t have been the Nazis… 😉
Racial superiority of the “German race” over especially Jewish and Slavic peoples, and expansion to the east to acquire new “lebensraum” were two of the main pillars of Nazi ideology.
What makes, IMO, Nazi Germany different from other brutal dictatorships is the industrial and pragmatically planned and executed mass murder based on these inane race theories.
While Human history had many race based mass murder incidents (Turkey and and Armenians, Ruanda, US and American Indians, etc), the pragmatism of the holocaust is just beyond my understanding.
I have had countless discussions with my parents (who were 14 and 15 at the end of the war, and lived in Germany throughout this period) over this, and it still remained a mystery to us.
Of course antisemitism has had a long history in Germany (and the rest of Europe), and pogroms against Jews occurred regularly, starting from the late 11th century where crusaders murdered the Jews in the Rheinland. But since Bismarck’s times Germany saw itself as a thoroughly modern Nation based on science and philosophy. Also the loss of WW1 and the contract of Versailles still cannot explain the holocaust.
I have been at times confronted with views and accusations that there is something different with Germans, that there is some sort of murderous gene in Germans which sets us apart from others, and should be a reason why we should be contained and controlled…
To my defense i can only say that when it comes to conquest i would have rather taken over Italy than cold Russia (who in his right mind wants 9 months of winter?!), and that i once had the hots for an American girl with huge knockers who happened to be Jewish, and the only thing in my mind at the time was making love not war… unfortunately we stayed at the time in a tiny 8-bed dorm in Singapore…
0
0
Speaking of German relatives, my children’s grandfather was a young German soldier in WWII (on the Russian front) and his father fought in WWI (not in Russia though!). I had very few conversations with them about their experiences as German soldiers (they didn’t like to talk about these things too much) before they died.
This article, however, is about the stupidity, hypocrisy and naivité of some Thais (and many other Asians) about Hitler, nationalism, fascism and racism. My point is that nowadays, some Asians seem to me more nationalistic/fascist/racist than Europeans and Americans. Tribal/ethnic identity united under a strong despotic “F├╝hrer” seems to be a political goal! It’s difficult for white people to point that out to them (“atonement for the sins of the colonial past” and all that politically correct rubbish) but my ancestors were from Burma, so ironically, I enjoy more “freedom of speech” to criticise these blatant flaws and shortcomings in Asian societies LOL
0
0
This whole racist mess just does not seem to go away. I always try to point out the fact that there is more genetic diversity in a single horde of chimpanzees than in the whole of humanity, and that all of today’s humanity descend from a tiny band that decided to walk out of Africa (with a miniscule amount of interbreeding with descendents of some homo erectus that decided a bit earlier to go wandering out of there). Racism is simply idiotic.
You are quite right that nowadays there are many tendencies in especially Asia to find solutions to existing problems by having strong leader types.
Unfortunately though i feel that also in Europe these tendencies are on the rise again.
Being in an inter-racial relationship (what a stupid expression!) this makes me quite uncomfortable. The legal hurdles i have to climb now just to be able to move with my family to Europe are beyond believe. Just because i happened not to fall in love with person that is not of western European descent.
Sometimes i think that in Europe we are just a bit more polite with our racism nowadays, but are nevertheless the same.
0
0
I get the sense that Nick doesn’t like Indians very much.
And he seems to have missed that 10s of 1000s of Indians died fighting the Nazis.
Weird.
Maybe he was too busy worrying about the terrible racism he has had to endure here?
*cough*
0
0
So, it took you almost two weeks to come up with such an inane and insulting comeback?
Yes, of course, many Indians that were part of the British forces died in WW2. Many Germans died fighting the Nazis as well – while in the resistance, in the French Foreign Legion (and, somewhat ironically, after WW2 many former members of the SS found refuge there), or German Jews in the allied forces.
So what? What difference does that make in my point that there are many large political organizations in India with mass support that have expressed admiration for Hitler?
Is it that because you seem to judge people based on their nationality – especially your quite obvious chip with my German nationality (which for reasons quite possibly beyond your scope of comprehension i have many difficulties with) – you automatically assume that I do the same?
I don’t.
If i like people or not does not depend on their passport or citizenship – but on their behavior.
As an example – i dislike you, based on your behavior here – and i neither know nor care where you are from.
0
0
No Nick it didn’t take me two weeks to come up with a reply as I rarely read this website.
What I would say is that your personal dislike for someone who dares to disagree with you seems a bit hysterical, overwrought and over-sensitive.
I still question your anti-India invective and question your judgement on this and other issues. And I still find your claim that you have suffered “racism” to be absolutely absurd and a denigration of those who actually have suffered from genuine racism.
0
0
Hitler
– there is nothing comparable in the history of mankind
– no other man has brought so much suffering and death to mankind as this person
– In such a person to see anything “good” is absolutely Cracked Brain, Dumb and Dangerous
– Equally dangerous is a school system that does not refer to this abominations but still looking for something good in them and allow such “heroic” comparisons
– is just as dangerous when a country has its own history can not really work up
0
0
Sorry to be nitpicking here. 😉
I would not reduce the evils of Nazi Germany to just one man – Hitler – but would suggest to see this phenomenon in the context the time. Without his helpers on high levels and a large part of the German population either supporting or underestimating him he would have remained nothing but a beer hall ranter on the extreme fringe.
Also, lets not forget Stalin here. Firstly – the body count under his rule was not too dissimilar in numbers.
And secondly – lets not forget the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact, in which just a few days before the German invasion into Poland both countries decided upon how to divide Poland and other east European countries between themselves. Russia then invaded 15 days after Germany its agreed upon part of Poland. And until Germany’s invasion into Russia in June ’41 both dictatorships were quite chummy.
There is a fascinating autobiography of that time in the Sovietunion written by the son of German exiles in Russia – Wolfagang Leonhard – “Die Revolution entl├д├Яt ihre Kinder”, if anyone is interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Leonhard
0
0
Let’s not leave out Mao Zedong, who headed the deaths of an estimated 18-33 million people during his ‘The Great Leap Forward’. I wonder how many Thais are familiar with the records of Stalin, Mao and Hitler – or Che for that matter – despite the t-shirts.
0
0
True. Away from this thread’s trend of Thai’s being possibly naive about the true monstrosity of those named individuals and taking solace and admiring in power figures, one can also look at relationship of the degree of publicity and, as if countable, degree of monstrosity.
If bigger killing is “badder” than less number, your Mao stumps the rest of the gang. Yet one never, never, never sees or meets or reads about a single human being appalled by it.
Accepting all those killed by Mao were just (JUST) Chinese, and furthermore “unimportant” people (would surely have been human) making their deaths from murder and starvation less cringing, there is also the problem of Winston-Smith-ques designer “history” and intense indoctrination not that terribly different from L’Oreal commercials.
People borne and sent to school in post-war Germany (regardless of racial origin) would perhaps be forever self-analyzing and being cautious and would be less likely to be anti-Zionist, for example. (Be sure to note anti-Zionist is BY NO MEANS anti-Semitic.) In the same vein, one would likely not encounter a repentant Japanese especially in buoyant Abe leadership.
Such things are important not because any worshiping of Hitler-ism would ever likely lead to massive and systematic pogrom and “elimination” by Thai against a particular group of people as seen in current Burma, but because the modern day Winston-Smith-ism is covering up deaths of human millions times the Auschwitz and in worse circumstances seen across the globe in the Middle-East, South America and Africa and indeed in the U S of A.
People living inside the world of Trueman Show would never realize their situation. That is the majority.
0
0
World War II might be the world’s deadliest conflict, but there are several other candidates with death tolls in similar order of magnitude that could also hold this dubious honor, including China’s Tai Ping rebellion, Mao Zedong’s rule and the Mongol conquests.
It’s when you look at death toll as a percentage of the world’s then population that things change dramatically. For example, the most deadly conflicts ever are then reckoned to be wars such as the An Lushan rebellion, with World War II barely squeaking into the top ten.
0
0
This is one thread where Godwin’s Law is excused!
0
0
I live in Bangkok now and from time to time see people wearing Swazticas and hitler clothes…I see shops sell these kinds of flags as well..It is very dissappointing..My conclusion so far is that Thai people are just dumb and they don’t even know what they are doing..It really pisses me off…Lets not forget the thais were allies of japan and germany to some extent during WWII so maybe that factors in to it a bit…I often have to restrain myself from confronting people because i know as a foreinger i will get the short end of any legal or jail situation…Im sick of this hitler and nazi symbols its disguisting
0
0
The Hitler/Nazi phenomenon is not just in Thailand or India but is widespread throughout the world. Here in Australia, I regularly see Nazi swastikas and other paraphernalia available for sale. I am hopeful that many people, both here (and in Thailand or wherever else), aren’t neo Nazis or Nazi sympathisers. Rather these people are displaying their ignorance of the true facts surrounding the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime before and during WWII. Perhaps I am being be a naive in this regard. As for the economic successes of the Nazi regime, surely they must be offset by the destruction visited upon Germany during WWII. There are plenty of other economic success stories in the post WWII period, many in countries that didin’t resort to the fascist activities of the Nazi regime. As an aside, wasn’t the swastika adapted from or very similar to a Hindu/Buddhist symbol?
0
0
“Lest We Forget”
Whilst I understand the superficial argument that young thai people are not aware of European history (litmus test: how many European students are aware of Asian history?)Anyone with cultural sensitivities who has spent more than a month in the kingdom will realise that the culture and political history leans toward fascism and an admiration for absolutist rulers. Those of us who read up a bit know of the origins and politics that produced the “modern” military and police force and the fetish for tight boots, jodphurs, brown uniforms and big hats.
Most of the thai gun owners, soldiers and policemen I know have an admiration for all things Hitler on the History Channel. The US Military come a close second but their uniforms are not so cool are they.
It all comes down to having sharp uniforms with a threatening, empowering image. Phao and Pibulsongkram loved it and there has been no political or educational will to change it.
That said, Thailand is not the only country in Asia or indeed the world to embrace the image. Rather naively however, the show no embarassment about embracing it. Fascism and Nationalism are useful tools if you are bought up to perceive external threats everywhere. Sadly with polarised politics there is little middle ground so we have “Fascist Yellow”, “Communist Red” and “whose side are you on then?
0
0
I have just hosted two international students for two months – both Thai females, and recent law graduates.
In discussions over dinner I ascertained that neither were aware that there had been a civil war in the USA. This cropped up after I observed that many major democracies had not established themselves until after a civil conflict.
Neither were aware that Thailand had declared war on both the UK & USA – though the Thai ambassador at the time never officially communicated that fact to the US government.
Both had ‘heard’ of Hitler, but didn’t know what a concentration camp was, and had never heard of Auschwitz. They had not really made the connection between the swastika, SS uniform (very smart – designed by Hugo Boss, I added – ah yes, heard of him)) & the Nazi regime. I don’t think they’re is too much joined up thinking going on here, and it is of little interest to them.
As a former lecturer at a US university, I was intrigued to know if they had ever argued or disagreed with one of their teachers. The size of their eyes indicated that such a situation arising was unthinkable. They were equally shocked to learn that, as a lecturer, I would be disappointed not to be challenged by students from time to time.
From that point on, they relaxed and felt comfortable expressing themselves openly. They were both astute, observant & perceptive. Delighful company. They also accepted that they were unlikely to be comfortable having similar conversations on returning to Thailand.
0
0
Let us not forget that Thailand signed an alliance with Japan, member of the Tripartite Pact along with the Third Reich. They also declared war on Britain and the USA.
0
0
Not to be forgotten is the present Head of the Thailand Privy Council and Thailand’s primo royalist, Prem, as a young Lieutenant in the Thai Army enthusiastically and willingly fighting alongside the Japanese Imperial Army in Burma.
0
0
Speaking of Burma, Aung San, the national(istic) super-hero of Burma (assassinated in 1947), the father of Aung San Suu Kyi, the (ex-)”democracy icon”, was trained by the Japanese and fought on the side of the Japanese Imperial Army. Aung San was also involved in the founding of the Burmese Communist Party. Go figure! Burmese “heroes” don’t have to stick to any principles or perhaps Politics and Power make strange bedfellows.
0
0
Not so exceptional tocharian. Joke about the politicians’ tripe can’t be cooked as it is so filthy and rotten has tangible basis although on national basis (Burmese Nation) the popular “changed attitude” concept (http://www.dictatorwatch.org/articles/burmanewmovement.pdf) of letting of Aung San Suu Kyi’s treachery has no ground as she never ever showed any concrete identification with the masses except haughty, patronizing speeches given from the plinth even before showing her true hand with siding with her “equals” (inside and outside the country) in whose company she is seen everyday.
But, after reading extensive arguments by Nick Nostitz above about the Hitler-worship-ping people in India he encountered , another good example might be the very fact that India is by far the most Zionist country not just in Asia but also in the world.
http://www.alterinter.org/spip.php?article3455
http://twocircles.net/2012apr26/thousands_march_delhi_against_israeli_influence_india.html
Incidentally, off the thread, there are a large body of people including educated elites in India who regards Gandhi as a traitor and support Nathuram Godse . Takes all sorts as poms would say!
0
0
“Aung San Suu Kyi, the (ex-)”democracy icon””
Here, tocharian, is a “copy and paste” from Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saruman about a novel made into another series of big-bug movie.
“Saruman the White is a fictional character and a major antagonist in J. R. R. Tolkien’s fantasy novel The Lord of the Rings. He is leader of the Istari, wizards sent to Middle-earth in human form by the godlike Valar to challenge Sauron, the main antagonist of the novel, but eventually desires Sauron’s power for himself and tries to help the Dark Lord take over Middle-earth. ”
“Saruman “was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare raise our hands against” but decays as the book goes on.[32] Patricia Meyer Spacks calls him “one of the main case histories [in the book] of the gradual destructive effect of willing submission to evil wills”.[28] Paul Kocher identifies Saruman’s use of a palant├нr, a seeing-stone, as the immediate cause of his downfall, but also suggests that through his study of “the arts of the enemy”, Saruman was drawn into imitation of Sauron.[33] According to Jonathan Evans and Spacks, Saruman succumbs to the lust for power,[20][28] while Shippey identifies Saruman’s devotion to goals of knowledge, organization and control as his weakness.[34] Tolkien writes that the Istari’s chief temptation (and that to which Saruman fell) is impatience, leading to a desire to force others to do good, and then to a simple desire for power.”
0
0
Nathan #22
If you read Alfred McCoys classic “politics of heroin in SE Asia you’ll realise the Thai armies main occupation was in reopening the heroin trade with Chiang Kai sheks nationalist army rather than supporting their Japanese allies. rather more pragmatic than idealistic I’d say. The nationalist ideals are for public consumption.
0
0
Luang Phao, are you saying that Prem, ex-Prime Minister of Thailand for 8 years (1980-88), Head of the Thai King’s Privy Council for 15 years (1998-present), Commander-in-Chief of the Thai Royal Army from 1978-1981, leader of the Royalists in Thailand, one of Thailand’s “Hidden Hands”, primary organizer of the 2006 coup against Thaksin, not only fought with the Imperialist Japanese Army invading Burma as a young lieutenant in WW II, but also fought to re-open the heroin trade between northern Burma and Thailand? How can such a scandalous accusation against one of the main pillar’s of the Thai Royalist Establishment possibly be true?!
0
0
[email protected]
You’re extrapolating rather freely there Norman. I’m sure the young officer in question at the time was “only following orders” as every good soldier does. I don’t know what area of operations he was situated in.
Again if you find a copy of “politics of heroin” (easily found as a pdf with a web-search)You’ll see that many august sino-thai dynasties started the slippery road to respectability in the opium trade in much the same way as Don Corleones immigrant family went from rags to riches in “The Godfather”.
“t’was ever thus…”
0
0
VichaiN – if you’re really serious – rather than simply rhetorical – why don’t you do a proper historical comparison of Thaksin compared to Hitler ? May I suggest you start with the following – despite massive injustices inflicted by the Versailles Treaty (including COLONISATION of the Rhineland), most Weimar Germans remained democratic. The Nazis won not much more than 2% in the 1928 elections. It was the Great Depression – and massive street and parliamentary thuggery – which rocketted the Nazi vote to more than 33% – the largest of any single party, but still nothing like an overwhelming majority – in the 1932 election, following Wall St’s 1929 Crash.
By comparison – after the 1997 economic crash, Thaksin won a GENUINE overwhelming majority in 2001, without any obvious street or parliamentary thuggery. He does n’t look like Hitler, to me.
Hitler rose to power by two stages – First was the development of the hard-core Nazi cadre, hugely embittered soldier “victims” of the grossly unjust Versailles Treaty. But they only counted – at maximum : 2% plus of the vote in 1928. Second was the Depression – the results I’ve outlined above.
Thaksin’s Thailand is almost nothing like this. Eg. Thaksin does n’t have the unified, highly disciplined street – and other – thug gangs Hitler had, targetting anyone who disagreed with them, especially Jews (in Thailand’s case, it would be the Chinese).
0
0
I must agree with Prach that the majority of Thai people know Hitler through “Pop Culture.” The information presented under “some Thais are willing to say” are too academic and too detailed for the majority of Thais to know about the third Reich. Some Thais are representing those of whom who have been educated in the West or who were fortunate to have a Western style education in Thailand. Thai educational system is an utter failure when it comes to history and current events. Thais do not know that they were once part of the Khmer empire that Khmer blood runs through them. I was briefly educated in Thailand through the 10th grade in Isaan. And the little Thai history that we got was marred by legend. For example, King Naresuan and his brother were reincarnated of Krishna and Rama (Pha Lak and Pha Ram). In the civic class it was about who could “Wai” the prettiest. A comment by a guest of the New Mandala, who had just hosted two law-graduated from Thailand, confirms what I already knew that the Thai educational system has not change in the last 30 years (see comment by Jayzee).
Another point I want to make is about how “some Thais” classify themselves as “middle-class” Thais. My intention certainly is not to bash anyone but to point out how “out-of-touch” the Thais are. Putting in a search word, “Thai’s view,” I came across a piece of writing by an author who described herself and her family as a “middle-class” Thai family. The author was educated in Germany and both of her parents were educated “abroad.” If the author is considering her family middle-class, my Thai family, despite having generations of teachers, nurses, and now a doctor, would have been considered poor or petit bourgeois. They certainly cannot afford to go abroad for an education in America or in Europe. Certainly, Khun Doctor, a cousin, now can afford to go abroad for his education, but his parents, both of whom were teachers, would have to go broke in order to educate him in the West. The author is of the upper middle-class no doubt according to the economy ladder of the West, but certainly she is not a middle-class Thai. I am aware that during the last decade and a half more Thais have been entering into the middle-class stratum than ever before and poverty has been declining. This is no doubt a bright spot in the Thai society, but the fact remains of the income gap between the rich, the true Thai middle-class, and the poor. If what Mr. Satrusaya said about “some Thais are willing to say” are indeed true, (which to me represent the very educated Thais and some of the arrogant well-to-do, who are certainly not of the middle class Thai) then I must have to say that Thais as a nation are simply “out-of-touch.”
0
0