р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Ю‘р╣Бр╕Фр╕З’ р╕Юр╕е.р╕Х.р╕Вр╕▒р╕Хр╕Хр╕┤р╕вр╕░ р╕кр╕зр╕▒р╕кр╕Фр╕┤р╕Ьр╕е
“Red” Army Major General Khattiya Sawasdiphol
р╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Вр╕Юр╕кр╕Хр╣М (ThaiPost)
р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕нр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 8 р╕бр╕┤р╕Цр╕╕р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Щ 2553 (Tuesday 8 June)
Interview: 31 January 2010
(abbreviated version)
…I went to observe the Red Shirt rally at Sanam Luang and realised that PAD were simply the tools of the amaat. At that time I did not know what “double standards” meant, or the meaning of democracy. These did not cross my mind until the Prasat Phra Viharn incident became politicised (when Yellow Shirts in 2009 claimed the site near the Cambodian border to belong to Thailand causing a diplomatic furore). So I started to be involved and went on stage and met people like Da Torpedo (currently in prison under lèse majesté charges) and Suchart Nakbangsai (who managed to flee the country) and talking about monarchy and the “Saturday ‘No Coup’” (Khon Wan Sao) and “Second June Group” talking about October 1976. It is not appropriate to talk about monarchy and the police were told to take them away. Well, they should instead be talking about 19 September Coup! The red shirts do not talk about monarchy which is why they have not had charges laid of lèse majesté. Instead the police laid charges of “selling nation”; or “bringing the inside out”.
In September 2008 the taxi driver group were attacked as they tried to get into Government House (26 August PAD invade Government House). I was also criticised by (now retired General) Panlop (Pinmanee; р╕Юр╕▒р╕ер╕ер╕а р╕Ыр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╕бр╕Ур╕╡ 1936-, one time anti-Thaksinite and friend of Chamlong but who later changed his position and became Red Shirt supporter), then the following day ex-PM Samak declared a state of emergency over yellow shirts occupying Government House. But, Anupong (Paochinda, Army Commander in Chief) did not act. I was confused: how come the army did not act?
Saedaeng’s “Prajaotaak warriors”
I trained “Prajaotaak warriors” (so-called King Thaksin’s “warriors”) for one month on how to engage in defensive unarmed combat[1]. I realised that red shirts did not know how to protect themselves. PAD had been rallying for 193 days and was street hardened and well supplied as a tool of the amaat. As I was training the Prajaotaak I met Panlop who had not changed to red at that time. Prajaotaak helped ex-PM Somchai to escape from being surrounded at Parliament in 2008. On 14 October, boss General Anupong went on air asking ex-PM Somchai to resign. At that time we had problem with Khmer at the border. Instead of taking care of that problem he was preoccupied with asking Somchai to quit. So I attacked Anupong and as a result was then investigated. I was banned from public speaking for two years, but I did not stop. I was also asked to stop working. On 30 October 2008 I was called in and told by Prawit (General Prawit Wongsuwan, Minister of Defence) to stop training Prajaotaak. 1 November the “unknown army” throw a hand grenade at the (so-called) “Siiwichai” PAD guards. I was not blamed because I had at that time stopped training the Prajaotaak.
On 2 November the Military Police in battle gear were asked to come and protect PAD’s mob. I thought this a bit odd too. I was starting to understand about amaat regime and realised that Thaksin had been obstructed and another two PM’s after him (Samak and Somchai) had been cheated. I thought about this and reflected: Prem was PM for 8 years (two full terms- and was never even elected). So within the army itself they had an unsuccessful rebellion to try and get rid of him. Many went to prison or were removed from their positions. Then Prem supported General Arthit Kamlang-ek and General Kriangsak Chomanan; he put General Serm Na Nakhon and General Yos Thephasdin in prison. Prem then eventually discharged Arthit because he was becoming too powerful even though he had helped Prem get to Khorat during the rebellion. Now Prem is chairperson of the Privy Council. It is clear how extensive and powerful the amaat is because they can control all the mechanisms of state…But Thaksin made mistake by attacking Prem. He did not work under Prem – this was a big mistake. Afterwards Prem “killed” Samak and Somchai.
During the month of November 2008 when PAD’s mob was in Parliament, no one could get them out, either police or army. That is why they were attacked by the “unknown army”. I knew when it would happen. In April 2009 when PAD attacked I was investigated. I was behind the scenes helping the Red Shirts. At this time I got interested in politics and gave talks on stage and decided to establish my own political party. I started to think about what is democracy. Even when the military says they are the king’s army, but the citizens of the country also subjects of the king; so why kill ordinary citizens? We are dominated by conservative elements such that we cannot raise our voice and (yet) claim to be under the king. Indeed, the military are dominated like those who come out to fight with me. The people don’t know that I am also fighting my boss[2].
In April 2009 I was in Europe and there was no one to control the conflict at Pattaya (9-12 April, ASEAN Summit meeting). If I were there, I would have controlled events. But Newin Chidchob who created the Red Shirts (at the time when Newin was with Thaksin during the first yellow shirt protests) also created the Blue shirt mob (now under Abhisit). The army supported Newin’s Blue shirt mob financially. The result was inter-conflict. Newin is good at creating mobs. On 13 April I returned to Thailand and General Prawit Wongsuwan, Minister of Defence, told me not to get involved. But people came to ask me to help; I said sure, but my only duty is to suppress the “unknown army” or those who shoot the Red Shirts. I cannot fight with the army. So the Red Shirts then dispersed.
Until October 2009 I was getting involved and was pushed to the frontline and went to talk to General Piroon Paewpolsong (army chief-of-staff). I talked about democracy and was then pushed out of the army. Piroon was going to take me to the criminal court. I then went to talk with Prawit, Sonthi Bunyaratkalin (2006 coup leader) and General Chetta Thanajaro. The only person not wanting to talk to me was Anupong.
The Tahaan Phraan[3] (р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕Щ; rangers, former counter insurgency trained volunteer unit from Phak Thong Chai dissolved about five years ago) appeared in November 2009. So according to military strategy all factors for conflict were in place. The “abolishment of state power by people” is now complete; when people can no longer have a voice then it may happen like the French Revolution with assistance from factions within the military. This is contra to the communist way of rebellion. But both ways fight against the amaat. Every time, 1973 and October 1976, I would pull them down from the stage if they talked about abolishing the monarchy. We are not about that; which is why we are not charged with lèse majesté. The concern we have is about double standards in the amaat bureaucratic polity; but they say we are “selling the nation”!
When I am asked to talk, Red Leaders had to listen to me because I know the military mind. This is why Anupong went to see Tahaan Phraan. He was worried about trained Red loyalties against the state, or if the Tahaan Phraan wake up and fight – then there will be real conflict for sure. So Anupong went to see these guys in Phak Thong Chai (Khorat). They were established in 1979 but today they are mostly older folk selling lottery tickets or work as drivers. At the beginning there were three sections of Thaan Phraan to be given ten million Baht each section. After he went there they got half that amount. He called them in and about six hundred came to see him, giving up two days of work to get to the meeting. They should have been paid Baht 200-300/Day (per diems). But he did not pay them anything. They were upset. Many subsequently turned up at Rama 5 equestrian statue in Bangkok (traditional a site for institutional protest) on 10 December and so I went there to keep peace. I told them not to fight the main army; as soldiers without control are like a gang without discipline. Media again makes up a story and Anupong then told me again to cease work.
I can say that much of the army is Red, except Anupong and (army spokesperson, Colonel) Sunsern Kaewkumnerd who are clearly Yellow. On 14 January they blamed the bombing of Anupong’s office in the Royal Thai Army Headquarters on me (rockets launched by M79, left the office demolished but no person injured). Anupong also thought it was me who released information about army being attacked…Before I did not know the various elements of the Red Shirt movement and touch hands with more hard-core elements such as Arisman Pongruangrong, Yosawarit Chooklomreu (jeng dokjik), and Payap Panket. I also clashed on occasions with three stage leaders: Nuttawut Saikua, Jatuporn Prompan and Veera Musikapong; these guys tend to give speeches about nonviolence.
Today everything is coming together as three factors: firstly, the three core leaders Nuttawut, Jatuporn and Veera control the protestors from around the country; secondly, the alliance consisting of Pheu Thai Party, which are “free floating” and has not been touched because Chaloem Yoobamrung (Party President) and Chaovalit Yongchaiyudh (Party Chairperson) are there; thirdly, “hardcore forces” (Arisman, Payap, and “jeng dokjik”). The hardcore group were excited for some time and because of my presence became even more self-confident…General Panlop Pinmanee worried that the three factors coming together (e.g. protestors-alliance-hardcore) would create violence. But it was the media, ASTV Manager, the Nation, BangkokPost, Naewna, ThaiPost, Kom Chad Luek, who were all instigating the problem. The conflict between Anupong and I concerns the “nation”. It is resolvable…
How to fight against the amaat
There seven steps in the fight against the amaat, whereby we are currently at the sixth step which is the training, political education and organisation of the resistance which could lead on to open fighting. The last step is the most worrying: releasing the forces of khorng-jorn (р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╣Вр╕Ир╕г) or guerrillas. This is comparable to the French revolution, where the elites were completely killed. This would be uncontrollable. It is the people’s army in the city; a situation currently likened to two governments, but the state having to compete with electronic cyber-war and “new generation” of (battlefield) web sites. Therefore, to prevent such a scenario of course we should talk about reconciliation.
Reconciliation and starting anew
There has never been a time in the past when a PM cannot go to the countryside, or the Ministry of Interior cannot go and give social and economic support. Let’s reconcile and dissolve Parliament, and start anew. It is true: the amaat regime still exists but we must not give in. If they ask for anything don’t give in to pressure for nominating their own cronies to ministries and heads of departments. If we can do it this way (reconciliation), we can make it. If not, then the government will have to fight the whole country. But I can say that the whole country is red. Everywhere I give a talk, there is red. In Isaan nearly everyone is red, provinces such as Mukdahaan, Mahasarakham, nearly every province, even in the south, Songkhla, Phattalung are now start to have red. Once they have arms then war will start. This is why (retired General) Panlop told me to take care of the situation and not to allow it to become so serious that fighting occurs. Therefore, whenever I give a talk I show the audience how to avoid clashing with the army.
So, firstly, in terms of strategy the reds need a leader like Napoleon then the army would not dare to shoot. In Thailand we have (retired General) Chaovalit (Yongchaiyudh, р╕Кр╕зр╕ер╕┤р╕Х р╕вр╕Зр╣Гр╕Ир╕вр╕╕р╕Чр╕Ш, 1932-) who used to say once during the Bloody May 1992 protests that the first bullet must target him first. However, when the incident took place in Bangkok he disappeared to Nakorn Phanom! So Panlop and I had to bring him back!
Secondly, we have to bring the families of the soldiers out to surround Government House and demand democracy. They would not dare to shoot their own relatives. Thirdly, we should request the army not to come out and fight their own people; soldiers should stay at home. If we cannot succeed with these first three steps and the army came out and started shooting like April last year and the Tahaan Phraan come out then civil war will start…
If reds win this conflict then Thailand will become a new prosperous society, the country will change, there will be no amaat; but if Reds lose then there’ll be a lot of killing.
Types of Red Guards
There are two types of red guards: first type is now in every province, but Tahaan Phraan is separate; they don’t depend on anyone. They will provide security when they come to Bangkok and take care of the core leaders. Tahaan Phraan will have red cloth on them, but red shirt volunteer guards will wear black – just to make them look cool! The Tahaan Phraan that comes to Bangkok will mostly be retired but there will also be younger ones. These people will have no arms. We must control these two groups; I will control the Tahaan Phraan, while core leaders will control their own red guards. I have to make sure that there will be no violence, no fighting between Tahaan Phraan and army. The consequence would be disastrous.
The strategy is that there will be the group of three core leaders (Nuttawut, Jatuporn, and Weng) who will talk on stage. This group will build a mass around the country. Then the hardcore which is divided into the moderates like Dr Weng, and radicals such as “Jeng dokjik”, and “Isaan Rambo” (Suporn Atthawang р╕кр╕╕р╕Юр╕г р╕нр╕▒р╕Хр╕Цр╕▓р╕зр╕Зр╕ир╣М), Arisman, and Payap who will coordinate together. This latter group believes there will no change without force. They just found me after I was kicked out of the army, so they are excited (Perhaps another reason for the state wanting Saedaeng dead?). However, at the same time I am very loyal to the country and never think of fighting with the mainstream army. I just want to try and protect people by conditioning without the use of force. Remember when (ex-PM) Samak ordered (Army Commander in Chief) Anupong and the latter did not cooperate and so failed to take control. When Abhisit orders the army and it does not act, then everything will be fine. Then he will call for a new election. That will be the end of my work here and I’ll seek a pardon from the new Minister of Defence and be able to return to my proper job[4].
In relation to Thaksin
The reds never actually received money from Thaksin. But the media started to make the “teasing” link. The media are in fact “massaging” the situation and waiting to see what will happen for the next elections. But the hardcore group knows very well that at the next election the amaat will still be there in control, so there will inevitably have to be violence to make change.
As for Thaksin, he is very kind; never wants the hardcore way to resolve this problem. If you ask me to analyse in relation to the seizure of Thaksin’s Baht 7.6 billion assets, there must be killings involved and judges rewarded with 25% of this wealth! I went to see Thaksin but there was nothing other than a personal interest. I had nothing to do with him. We only talked and I had my photograph with him. Thaksin is an economist; he is not very smart about security. He never understands me. He just leaves it to the core leaders to “massage” (the resistance) and inform on stage. Then after December 2011, he hopes to have an absolute win and amnesty so that he can come back home. But the hardcore group knows that this is not going to happen; this will not be a win situation.
I come out to prevent a clash of forces between Tahaan Phraan and the army. But the media made Anupong misunderstand my intention. So I was asked to stop working. But as I do things without anything in return – I am not afraid…I do this for the nation. This is my ideology. No one can stop me except my parents, and they are no longer alive. I fight against the amaat; I don’t fight with the monarchy. If there are people (among reds?) who see me they stop talking (negatively?) about monarchy. Surachai Sae Dan (core leader of the splinter group Red Siam [р╣Бр╕Фр╕Зр╕кр╕вр╕▓р╕б]) was not allowed by the three core leaders (of UDD) to get a voice on stage because he is critical of the monarchy. But he listens to me and does not criticize openly or talk about communism.
…We (Saedaeng and Panlop) try to prevent a clash between Tahaan Phraan and the army; unless something happens to me (he was of course shot a few months later after this interview). If something happens and fighting starts between these two elements, it is the government and the army who would lose as province by province is taken over similar to the way Mao Tse-tung won over the countryside as the masses worked together. Today people know about double standards of this government, they realise how the ex-PM (Thaksin) was done badly. Even one person makes a mistake, the whole party is banned. People can see things like this. People are convinced of double standards and will take it to the end. Saedaeng (first person voice) comes to help them…I admit to being eccentric otherwise how can I “fly a plane into the enemy”!? My eccentricity is for the nation.
I already applied to establish a political party (after his murder his daughter who was once Yellow Shirt took over as head). If I win a seat I will undertake the following activities: firstly, in the judicial system I’d separate investigation power (prosecution) from the power of apprehending/arresting (policing); secondly, I would make the Thai army the best in the ASEAN region, at present we are number six; thirdly, improve national infrastructure, have freeways like in Malaysia and fast trains like Vietnam (must be in the south?), have International Mobile Telecommunications-2000 (IMT-2000), or 3G like in Cambodia; fourthly, establish improved local tambon level infrastructure.
I would not join Pheu Thai Party; better to be a dog’s head than a lion’s tail, and I would not fight with anyone except the head of the party. Well, if I can’t win, never mind. I’ll just propose an improvement in the judiciary and a court of law with a proper jury system where decisions cannot be bought by a judge alone. I’d like to combine red and yellow eventually. Both will turn against the amaat (yellow shirts used by Sondhi Lim were actually propped up by the amaat). Every day I ask Sondhi to take yellow shirt off and put on a red shirt and then we meet under the equestrian statue of King Rama V. But Sondhi is lying to himself. He has to admit that he was shot by the amaat, and the amaat are ruthless. In fact, in his own way, Sondhi wants to see democracy as well and the country to be prosperous.
In regards to the possibility of another coup, some red shirts want a coup which would lead to amnesty, but this is just a trick because on the 25 January (2010) lots of armoured vehicles came out – but it was just a threat.
Today the army is fighting with people which never happened before. Now the whole country is nearly all Red. The Yellow state is failed. Now is fighting between government’s army and people’s army because the red shirts have four (three?) full factors (mentioned earlier). Suppose the protest is suppressed in April (2010) then the core leaders would be arrested but it doesn’t matter because they will be “political prisoners” and released at the time of the next elected government. No government ever wins against the army of the people.
As for Prayut (General Prayut Chan-Ocha р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕вр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╣М р╕Ир╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╣Мр╣Вр╕нр╕К, deputy army commander and touted by some to replace Anupong after he retires), he does not have any role yet. To attack Prayut is wrong. Although he is not bad, the situation may lead him to become bad in responding to the situation at hand. He is from 21st Infantry Regiment and comes up the ranks because he has to control forces. It is not time to attack him yet. Right now (interview conducted in January 2010) it is Anupong we should be concerned about. Maybe (General) Piroon (Paewpolsong) would come up as Commander in Chief after Anupong because he knows how to establish cost effectively the 3rd Cavalry Regiment (as Prem’s birthday request last year at a cost of 20 billion Baht, to control the Northeast Region). In regard to Prem, he is smooth, smart and cunning. No one can control him.
[Translated 16 June 2010][1] These were mostly homeless folk living around Sanam Luang who turned up near the front stage each night during the rally.
[2] Saedaeng seems to be making the point here that although it seems a conflict of interest as he is in the army, he is actually with the people and in a struggle together against the amaat system.
[3] The army are scared of likely conflict with Tahaan Phraan; maybe Saedaeng was shot to warn this ex-militia who respected Saedaeng not to become active?
[4] It is clear that Saedaeng did not mean harm for anyone, but only because he was loud he was a concern. Even ASTV felt bad over his killing and sent a funeral wreath on a number of occasions but was thrown out by his supporters.
“There [are] seven steps in the fight against the amaat, whereby we are currently at the sixth step which is the training, political education and organisation of the resistance which could lead on to open fighting. The last step is the most worrying: releasing the forces of khorng-jorn (р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╣Вр╕Ир╕г) or guerrillas.”
Is it too early to talk about the prospects of a new armed insurgency group forming in Thailand?
I have read accounts from the internet and in the newspapers that a number of the hardcore group leaders have surfaced in Cambodia, and are talking about forming a guerrilla force with bases there. Any substance to these accounts? There seem to be enough rural Red Shirts willing to join the fight, but would Hun Sen allow the presence of guerrilla groups in northern Cambodia, and where would the guerrillas obtain weapons and logistical supplies in sufficient quantity to mount a threat to the Thai military? One source or weapons might be the Thai military bases themselves along the border with Cambodia, taking a page from the playbook of the Muslim insurgents in the South.
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Army Major General Khattiya Sawasdiphol is loved among grassroots Thai people across the country. He wins the hearts and minds of the majority of the Thai Army soldiers especially the enlisted soldiers. Sae Daeng is a straight forward outspoken person. He is intelligent, kind, patriotic and brave. He speaks his mind and acts like a real man in the fashion of gentlemen agreement. He is darling to so many many people. They are extremely angry, profoundly shocked and deeply sad…
This interview correctly reflects his personality. Among the fun loving joking style of his character, his serious side reflects philosophical insights with sincere intention and devotion to the country’s progress. He’s known throughout the country; every where he went people wanted to take picture with him. Coming from a modest Army soldier family (his father also an Army soldier), Sae Daeng was able to relate well with ordinary people. If the election were held now, Sae Daeng would win with in any political contest with a landslide.
Sae Daeng’s character is just the opposite to the opportunistic and calculative characteristics of Army Chief, Anupong Paochinda, deputy Army Chief Prayut Chan-Ocha and Prime Minister Aphisit. Anupong, Prayut and Aphisit are calculative and opportunistic. They know the Queen in alliance with the Crown Prince are the de facto power who control the military so they loyal to them. Sae Daeng’s miscalculation of this factor had cost his life.
In 1976, Dr. Puey was set up.
In 2010, Sae Daeng was set up!
If ignorance of history makes one more likely to repeat it, as the saying goes, then the stakes of historical knowledge are at their highest when involving military power.
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From reading the record, I still think that Sae Dang is a hard-line royalist. I think Sae Dang himself doesn’t know who he is fighting with, and that has cost his life. Poor guy, I never like him, but I think he has changed enough during the course of the year that I start to respect him.
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Why are we graynjaiing a person who was prepared to resort to terrorism for his own sake? I don’t really care what horrible people he annoyed, since he was truly obnoxious and overbearing in his own right. If they killed him, as I strongly suspect, we can just label him another victim of the machiavellian elite and their lackies. We could also label him a victim of his own folly and insanity. I know one person who liked him, and that person is another military man who believes it is OK to lob grenades in an area where there are innocent bystanders. All the other folks around here despise him and his local supporter, since they are used to bullies in uniforms.
Some people loved him him, but he was also widely reviled.
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Sae Daeng set himself up by being a loose cannon. Don’t associate this thug with the name of a committed person like Doctor Puey.
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Well, how to start…firstly, how surprising the 2 most loathed forces in the kingdom are the biggest supporters of the reds – The police & The Army.
So, “The peoples army” will topple the current regime of elites and NOT install new elites, what a load of crap…just more Red propaganda.
How ironic they use Napoleans’s name, the man who wanted to install himself Pope and ruler of The Holy Roman Empire.
The Thai armed forces support the reds and Thaksin because he paid them better, treated them better and had no competition or other propaganda while he did it. If the leader Seh Daeng did not know what Democracy was, how could the lowly ranked soldiers comprehend this Western Political thinking, when they barely know English.
IMO, this interview is another piece of Red propaganda with intent to “rally the troops’ that has little substance relating to the majority of Thai’s supporting this movement and willing to give up their lives for it. Outside Isaan and the North, I find this very hard to believe.
I have heard all kinds of rumours from both colours, on revolutions, coups, counter-coups involving people from both sides betraying their colours. At the end of the day, there are many powerful groups who want their piece of the pie and are willing to do whatever it takes to get there, even using the Yellows & Reds as pawns. The endgame and ultimate trophy is going to be open soon.
Prachatipatai, yeah right!
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Seh Daeng, you are missed. R.I.P.
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Collin:
“The Thai armed forces support the reds and Thaksin because he paid them better, treated them better and had no competition or other propaganda while he did it.”
Dear Collin, is the above true? I know the soldiers are very very badly paid and treated. So if what you say is true, then, oh dear, you are really making me like Thaksin just a little more.
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Why Chai? Are you a gun-obsessed uniformed terrorist nutcase yourself? Or do you truly believe that mafias will deliver nirvana to your life without you actually having to lift a finger to help yourself. Hero worship of thugs is just lazy politics.
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When Seh Daeng is cremated on the 22nd, let us see his legacy. He has a beautiful daughter who will continue his fight for justice.
Let us see his bank account. He was reported to be close to Thaksin but why DSI has not included his name in the list of 83 people ? Let us see if he has any hidden plot of land which encroaches on state property. But most important of all, let us see WHO attend his cremation.
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Collin – 8
“The Thai armed forces support the reds and Thaksin because he paid them better, treated them better and had no competition or other propaganda while he did it.”
Did I read this correctly? “Thai armed force support the reds” the red wouldn’t running hiding rats now if that statement even hold 50% truth in it.
At the end of the day, there are many powerful groups who want their piece of the pie and are willing to do whatever it takes to get there, even using the Yellows & Reds as pawns. The endgame and ultimate trophy is going to be open soon.
Yes I agreed, but the main point is “the majority of the people” get the pie, and this is not the case today since the minority upper echelon of the society is controlling the huge chunk of the pie.
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Sae Daeng boasts of murdering over 20 ‘commies’ in his heyday, yet became the on-the-ground leader of the Red Shirt militant arm once he recently learned what ‘democracy’ was all about.
The irony is bitter.
The ability to squeeze a trigger with no comprehension of what one is doing, or why one is doing it, is profoundly ignorant.
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Now perhaps if Thaksin truly had the people of Thailand on his side, not just a few hundred-thousand squeaky wheels, he would have been restored to power in 48 hours like Hugo Chavez. Clearly something fundamental was missing from him earning, or was it retaining?, wide-spread, heart-felt appeal.
There is plenty of fault to go around, from the top to the bottom, from all sides of the political spectrum. In short, there remain three fundamental ways ahead, without accounting for the merit of each:
1) the fair application of the rule of law and Constitutional approach, which takes into concern all the people of the nation;
2) a military solution which imposes its will; or
3) mob rule.
Sept 19, 2006 was the military approach. May 2010 was the mob approach. All that is left is a replay of these failed solutions, or an acceptable approach under the rule of law.
Unfortunately, in Thailand, the rule of law is utterly meaningless within the psyche of the people. The importance of this cultural ‘value’ may take generations to change for the good. So until a figure can come along who warrants the peoples’ trust and has noble aspirations, Thailand will continue bouncing between mob insurrections and military coups.
It is painful to realize that Thaksin blew his chance at being a truly positive, historic figure for the country and the people. Instead, he left a wealthy billionaire a few times over, ethically bankrupt, and with a shameful life which even he must detest. I wonder who will emerge from the ashes to lead the way now, for better or worse?
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Seah Deang is no doubt a colorful character. Whoever he was, he did not deserve to be sniped so ignonimously. May he rest in peace.
igbymac:
I agree with you that it is painful that Taksin blew the chance at being a truly positive and historic figure for Thailand. Not because I like Taksin all that much, but because it is for me a yet another missed chance for Thailand to move forward – and I had so much hope when TRT was elected, and reelected by landslide. Regardless of what I think of the man, there ARE changes on the ground that is really amazing for me, as an observer of growing democracy, and as a social worker watching the improving opportunities for the rural folks.
For the rural folks, I must comment on and correct this statement of yours:
“Sept 19, 2006 was the military approach. May 2010 was the mob approach. All that is left is a replay of these failed solutions…”
I disagree: Sept 2006 was military approach. 2008 was mob approach by the educated urbane Bangkokians and it worked. 2010 was a replay of 2008 by the northern rural mass and it failed.
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That was what happened – the mob rule was initiated by PAD and pro-establishment and pro-royalists. As of today, the PAD mob rule did not fail. It is unfortunately sadly successful, and Abhisit sits on the PM chair unelected. Freedom of speech in Thailand is now at a historic low, censorship at record high and those who do not like the establishment or do not ‘love the King’ now lives in fear and wears fake smiles nodding at snide comments about ‘water buffoloes’ and terrorists.
Just like the polls of 07, few would dare tell the truth of their feelings. The polls will return falling support for Reds’ movement and will be used by the Democrat Party to justify their actions. But the anger will simmer beneath. Elections will not be held until a mechanism can be worked out to assure that Democrat Party wins – and there is no doubt Democrat Party will win the next election and by a landslide. They were the chosen – as they were as far back as ’90s – only to have their long plotted for long term victory snatched from them by an underdog of the TRT party. The Courts will see to the return of DP as per orders from the de facto powers. Any other parties that even dares look a small challenge will be disbanded – but really, there is no party left that can do that.
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Tarrin,
Some say this is the reason Anupong was to aggressive with the reds.
Find it hard to believe, ask them yourself.
The majority of the people will never get the pie in any country or state, dont be naive. The more aggressive will always step on the meak.
Nuomi,
How do you know they are so badly treated? Is that what they tell you?
Some soldiers I know are better off in Thailand than I am here in Sydney in a white collar job, which I spent 4 years in uni for!
They have brand new pick-ups, drink plenty of booze and are famous for knowing the best places to eat all over the country!
“The poor only know they are poor when some do-gooder tells them”
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igbymac #12
My reading of Thaksin in Thailand in comparison with Chavez in Venezuela is that Thailand has a monarchy that blinded the people to the repressive activities of the amnart/military.
When the coup against Thaksin took place the smoke and mirrors story of “protection of the monarchy” was still strong.
Now, the people have commenced their understanding of the real feudal nature of Thai society and like the Europeans 500 to 200 years ago are wanting to shake off the yokes
The actions of the royals themselves, the PAD and the government have weakened the smoke and mirrors story of the monarchy. It is so weak, the government has had to use the new Bush/US inspired story of terrorism to keep themselves intact. This wont work long. The claim that your own people are terrorists is a bit far-fetched for anyone to accept seriously for long, it has not been used down south and it was only the extreme actions of the Yellows at the airports that raised the idea at all.
Many in Bangkok as well as the regions are awake to the malign forces in Thai society. It will take only a small flame to ignite a major rebellion that the military generals will not be able to contain. The amnart will then recognise that democratic governments must be accepted.
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Thanks for sharing your views, Nuomi. I’d propose your comment is more an addition to, not a correction of, my point.
One may rebut (if only as a trial balloon), that the 2008 PAD mob was simply mopping up what the 2006 military coup never got quite ‘right’.
The change desired by the coup was to remove Thaksin; but when it became apparent that Thaksin’s ‘tentacles’ were too deeply rooted within the political body, the 2008 mob came to the rescue. The military support for the PAD suggests this was the case.
Regardless of how one chooses to characterize the events, we certainly do live in interesting times.
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No, FredKorat, I am a retired school teacher, but thanks for asking.
Freedom is worth fighting for. Seh Daeng fought and died fighting for freedom.
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р╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕Фр╕╡р╕Х р╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Ыр╕▒р╕Ир╕Ир╕╕р╕Ър╕▒р╕Щ р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Гр╕Фр╕Хр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╣Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕Бр╕Пр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Щр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕бр╕╡ “р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Щр╕│р╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕┤р╕Ф” р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Вр╕Фр╕Фр╣Ар╕Фр╣Ир╕Щ р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ
– р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╣Ар╕бр╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓ р╕Д.р╕и.1776 р╕бр╕╡ р╕нр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Юр╕ер╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Вр╕нр╕З р╕Ир╕нр╕лр╣Мр╕Щ р╕ер╣Зр╕нр╕Д
– р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Эр╕гр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕ир╕к р╕Д.р╕и.1789 р╕бр╕╡ р╕зр╕нр╕ер╣Бр╕Хр╕гр╣М
– р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕гр╕▒р╕кр╣Ар╕Лр╕╡р╕в р╕Д.р╕и.1918 р╕бр╕╡ р╣Ар╕ер╕Щр╕┤р╕Щ
– р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕вр╕╕р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щр╣Бр╕Ыр╕ер╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╣Ар╕Щр╕Ыр╕▓р╕е р╕Д.р╕и.2008 р╕бр╕╡ р╕Юр╕╕р╕Кр╕Ыр╕▓ р╕ор╕▓р╕бр╕▓р╕е р╕Фр╕▓р╕ор╕▓р╕е р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕н
р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Ир╕▒р╕Щр╕Фр╕▓р╕Хр╣Мр╣Бр╕Щр╕зр╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕гр╣Мр╕Бр╕бр╕▓р╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤
– р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕ир╕нр╕┤р╕кр╕гр╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕┤р╕Щр╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕в р╕Д.р╕и.1942 р╕бр╕╡ р╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕Хр╕бр╕░ р╕Др╕▓р╕Щр╕Шр╕╡
– р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Ир╕╡р╕Щ р╕Д.р╕и.1949 р╕бр╕╡ р╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕▓ р╣Ар╕Ир╣Лр╕н р╕Хр╕╕р╕З
– р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Др╕┤р╕зр╕Ър╕▓ р╕Д.р╕и.1959 р╕бр╕╡ р╕Яр╕┤р╣Ар╕Фр╕е р╕Др╕▓р╕кр╣Вр╕Хр╕г р╣Бр╕ер╕░ р╣Ар╕К р╕Бр╕╣р╕зр╕▓р╕гр╕▓
– р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕┤р╕лр╕гр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щ р╕Д.р╕и.1979 р╕бр╕╡ р╕нр╕┤р╕лр╕бр╣Ир╕▓р╕б р╣Вр╕Др╣Др╕бр╕Щр╕╡
– р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щр╣Бр╕Ыр╕ер╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╕нр╕▒р╕Яр╕гр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╣Гр╕Хр╣Й р╕Д.р╕и.1994 р╕бр╕╡ р╣Ар╕Щр╕ер╕кр╕▒р╕Щ р╣Ар╕бр╕Щр╣Ар╕Фр╕ер╕▓
р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Йр╕▓р╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Кр╕▒р╕Фр╣Ар╕Ир╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕кр╕╣р╣Йр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Йр╕▓р╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕Вр╕Щр╕▓р╕Фр╣Др╕лр╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Др╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕З р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Вр╕Хр╣Йр╣Ар╕Цр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕Вр╕▒р╕Фр╣Бр╕вр╣Йр╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Гр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Йр╕▓р╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕ир╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╕бр╕зр╕ер╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щ р╣Др╕Ыр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Кр╕▒р╕Фр╣Ар╕Ир╕Щр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕Б р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕бр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕ир╕╢р╕Бр╕йр╕▓р╕зр╕┤р╣Ар╕Др╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕лр╣Мр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕бр╕╣р╕е р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Чр╕др╕йр╕Ор╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Бр╕бр╣Ир╕Щр╕вр╕│ р╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╣Ир╕Щр╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Б р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕Юр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕зр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕Вр╕зр╕▓р╕Зр╕Щр╕│р╣Ар╕кр╕Щр╕нр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Кр╕▒р╕Фр╣Ар╕Ир╕Щ р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щр╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕Щр╕бр╕▓ р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╕Др╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕З
ThaiE-N ews 6/19/2010
I think Thailand should move toward the Presidential System like Indonesia, the Philippines, and the United States because the existing Thai system is not working. Even the former king, Ananda, was murdered when he planned to change the country towards the Presidential System.
The public’s desire for liberty and freedom is exponentially increasing across every regions. Yet the military and the monarchy prefer to keep the status quo. I think it is in the interests of every group (economic elites, political elites, network monarchy, the military, general public, and international community) to accommodate the needed change.
Thailand can no longer afford the increasing costs (financial, social, political and psychological, etc.) of the oppressive measures e.g. emergency law, political computer law, lese majeste law, sniper operation, etc.). Creating “FEAR” does not work in the Thai culture context, it only moves the country further towards costly conflict.
Today I read an interesting article in the ThaiE-News about the changes in various other countries, e.g. USA (1776), France (1789), Russia (1918), Nepal (2008), India (1942), South Africa (1994), etc.
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Colin – 14
The majority of the people will never get the pie in any country or state, dont be naive. The more aggressive will always step on the meak.
Well, isn’t the statement in itself naive? to assume thing something will never happen?
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Dear Collin:
Pending on who their parents are – I know the ones you mentioned and all of those type have good contacts and good connections. Or the handful wily enough to toady up to join the “right” crowd.
I know some of lower ranking soldiers who made a small fortune robbing poor vulnerable villagers across the borders in Laos and Cambodia (why do you think why some of those villagers hated the Thai soldiers?) and boasted about it splashing their ill gotten gains in beers and parties.
The higher ups of course had other forms of corruption money – you really dont want to get into all those – that hierachical system.
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The ones I cared about had no friends in high places, and no skills to toady to them, or are handicap and no longer “perfect” enough for them.
A number of them were the ones who happened to step on mines on the border 15-20 years back, lost their limbs, and had no access to affordable medical care and they struggle from day to day, sometimes on charity. All from that group are dead now, and not even any where close to old age yet.
I know a mom who lost her son in training because the officers did not believe that the boy was sick. They thought that that poor boy was only pretending and pushed him even harder – he died on the training field and that was covered up because the murderer had “connections”. The mom was even threatened if she dared talk – and yes, she once worked for us.
I know from a number of country recruits some ten years back how they were given old rusty outdated weapons. I know they forked out money they could barely afford to buy little “branded” buddhas to protect them from backfiring weapon, which happened to a friend of theirs.
I knew of how those hard party officers drinking all over Thailand, when in a bad mood, how they booted and kicked their men – in rare instances even kill them in drunken rage. Stories I heard, yes – but one I knew was permanently handicapped from a vicious boot and lack of medical care, now walk with a limp (because he worked for us for a while)
My aunt watched, white-faced, one of the soldiers getting booted by his superior officer -an unmentionable in that case. She was not only horrified, but also disgusted given the rank and file of that man. She has no information as to whether that punching bag lives or died.
I may not have spent much time in Thailand recently, but I was once there – and very much a part of that society. And my view is – if you are in that “party boys connected” crowd, then yes, life is very very good. Abuses of privilege are common – and it is not uncommon to travel on army planes and ships like on a holiday – like cruise around Sattahip on a naval ship landing on a really isolated island for tea and a swim. It was really cool.
So Collin, I can see why a white collar worker and Sydney graduate might be envious of such privileges and lifestyle. But do not fool yourself – the darker side must exist to support such frivolity. I hope you never get to see it.
Cheers, Nuomi
PS on a sidenote, Australia drew with Ghana – darn! Now have to win last match to get into next round!!! Grrr…
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Tarrin – 18
The majority of the people will never get the pie in any country or state…
Oh, but they may get a pie in the sky when they die, or at least that’s what Joe Hill sung.
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Nuomi,
I think Aus will not make it now. Oh well 2014…
The initial point I made is that they are sympathetic to the reds and Thaksin because he improved their living standards.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/39064/the-bkpd-blues
This articles sheds light on the police situation which is similar to the soldiers situation.
Tarrin,
Maybe naive, maybe not.
Let’s look at that for a second…what am I being naive about?
The thought that if elections were held tomorrow and assuming that the Puea Thai party won that instantly there would be installed ALL basic human rights and no corruption that we have in developed world?
I cannot think of any place in the world where the majority of the people hold the majority of wealth, in fact, some of the most prosperous Democracies are prime examples of most of the pie being held by the minority.
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Colin – 21
I think you misunderstand the concept here, Democracy doesn’t cause the concentration of wealth. It was capitalism mechanism that actually did it. However don’t forget that capitalism also create wealth so you need to have capitalism long enough to create wealth before you need to the next step, socialism, to diversify the wealth.
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Tarrin,
Exactly right, you have pretty much posted my next post.
Not going into a debate about political colours but sticking to the subject, The UDD and Reds are fighting for Democracy. Reading what both of us have written just shows how hypocritical this whole shebang really is. The whole thing is a SHAM. These people are brainwashed.
Ultimately, at the end if the day, what we are hearing from both sides IMO is just lies, lies & more lies. Democracy this, Democracy that.
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Colin – 24
I agreed that the UDD leaders might not be suitable for the current situation. The 3 wised-man and the gang are not the revolutionist they are the reformist, that’s why the red never succeed their goal in changing the system. However, I have many chances to go to the really side because by office is just about 5 minutes walk from the rally site, I had the chance to talked to many of the protesters. I’m surprise that not all protesters agreed with what the people on the stage said, some even openly disagree, but they are there for the same purpose is to demand for election (I didn’t agree with that btw). I raised the point just to tell you that these people are not puppet, they are more aware of what is going on many of the old people there went trough the 1976 and 1992 incidents before.
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Tarrin,
So tell me, what are they saying on the stage?
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Tarrin, they might not get the pie in the sky, but at least in most democracies, people don’t get shot in the head by state actors– be they soldiers or paramilitaries.
Amazing Thailand, Land of Smiles.
(Dammit, I said smile at the tourist or I shoot you.)
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H.R. – 27
I think wealth distribution is a secondary target for Thailand, now we have to fix this broken governing system first. The pie will have to wait.
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