er … so what is it gentlemen, should we mourn and grieve for Osama Bin Laden, or if that is too strong, at least help Wikileaks Assange from being ‘raped’ by the merciless Obama regime?
“We want to send a message all around the world to anybody who will do us harm – no act of terror will dim the light of the values that we proudly shine on the rest of the world,”
“We will not be deterred – we will keep going, we will keep going because the world needs us. We are the one indispensable power in the world.”
This would scarcely be less credible if it had been said by Josef Stalin or Goebbels. It seems to me there is a yawning (and increasing) chasm between the way that the USA sees itself and the way the rest of the world sees it; more and more commentators are hypothesising that we are seeing the decline of the USA as a superpower, and that it only has itself and its messianic self-image to blame.
Personally, I doubt that China would be any better, and it looks like we will find out in the next 50 years or so. What is sure is that if I had a choice today, between the USA in the past 80 years and the Spanish Inquisition, I think I would be hard pushed to tell them apart by looking at their positive influence on the world.
Someone named Alan Taylor interviewed Noam Chomsky for the Sunday Herald/UK of 20 March, 2005.
I noticed it at that hotbed of lukewarm mediocrity, Commondreams. Taylor closes with a quote from the driveling old gnome himself …
On the way out, Chomsky draws my attention to a ghoulish painting hidden behind a filing cabinet.
“It’s a terrific Rorschach test,” he says menacingly. “When I ask people from North America what it is, nobody knows. When I ask people from South America, everybody knows. If you ask people from Europe, maybe 10% know. What it is, is Archbishop Romero on the 25th anniversary of his assassination [in El Salvador], six Latin American intellectuals – Jesuits – who were also murdered, all by elite forces armed and trained by the United States who also killed another 70,000 people. Nobody knows a thing about it.
“Suppose it had been in Czechoslovakia. Suppose the Russians had murdered an archbishop and killed [Vaclav] Havel and half-a-dozen of his associates. Would we know about it? Yeah. We probably would have nuked them. But when we do it, it doesn’t exist. It reminds me of the world.”
“Similarly, William Blum’s study “A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower,” covered 67 interventions between 1945 and 2000 that, according to him, resulted in the deaths of 13-17 million people. In his book “The Fall of the U.S. Empire – And Then What?,” European intellectual Johan Galtung listed 161 incidents of American overt political violence between 1945 and 2001, including 67 military interventions, 25 bombings, 35 political assassinations (or attempted ones), 11 foreign countries that were assisted with torture, and 23 interferences with elections or the political process abroad. And all that was before the 9/11 attacks.”
Whatever one think of the politics of Counterpunch, if these numbers are correct, and they do not, evidently, originate with Counterpunch, then it is a major problem for the self-styled ‘leader of the free world’.
Certainly Jimmy Carter recently made a compelling argument that the USA has lost its [alleged] moral authority in the world, and is now seen as a major problem rather than a major solution. The declining approval rates for USA in the past 10 years (published elsewhere) are devastating.
Robert McNamera put the number of Vietnamese he killed at three million. Others say only two. Far too many people still suffering today from the US attempt to poison the very earth itself in Indochina.
Then they’re the Lao, Cambodians, Iraqis, Afghans … They say a half million Iraqis were killed by the sanctions … before the Invasion. Madeleine Albright figured it was worth it. Maybe a million after the invasion …
Now we’re drunk with murder and mayhem. The serial aggressions continue … the world is living under our drones. It’s a growth industry.
Somewhat resistant at first, all the Western elite seem in general agreement now. All war, all the time.
In fact … a bit of that war is starting to come home … in Greece, in Spain … lots of folks whisting past the graveyard.
Maybe it was the line about the ‘NGO reps’? Another exaggeration, no doubt …
Chinese-owned factories keep churning tee-shirts for the European and American market employing tens of thousands of young Cambodian girls earning $80 per month. They are being sacked at the first sign of unionising. Nouveau-riches live in palaces; there are plenty of Lexus cars, and an occasional Rolls-Royce. Huge black and red, hard and precious tree trunks are constantly ferried to the harbour for timber export, destroying forests but enriching traders. There are many new French restaurateurs in the capital; NGO reps earn in one minute the equivalent of a worker’s monthly salary.
It’s frankly pretty ridiculous to talk about “republicanism” in Thailand, when the most successful challenge to the Thai military, in decades, is currently being waged by Muslim separatists who want a caliphate.
I guess the reason that the US is the greatest power in history is that they can do exactly what Pol Pot did to his citizens (to others ofcourse – e.g. Vietnam, Iraq, etc) and not only get away with it, but proclaim it as some noble cause (defending human rights, liberating oppressed groups, getting rid of dictators, etc)
It would be great to put some numbers to these atrocities (the Holocaust, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc) against US military expansion/intervention. It will be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.
What’s next for Shamir, Hitler was a truly sympathetic guy who’s been purposely “misunderstood” by U.S./Globalist dominated history professors bribed with tenure at all the U.S./Globalist universities? Hitler was just trying to organize the sturdy rural Volk (the “real” Germans) to overthrow those mean and selfish Jews, capitalists and middle-men/parasites living high off the labor of the Volk, and to help liberate all the oppressed rural downtrodden people of the earth living under jackboot of British imperialism.
Thanks for the post Nich. Well timed. There has been a perceptible gap of Burma related posts since this affair erupted.
It is also, in the calm of the aftermath, nice to see no mentioning of the usual features by “neutral observers”, indignant of the vitriol of the netizens (again Burmese versions are thousands of time worse than the English ones) and on the ground action of the players, describing the affair as all out Burmese Buddhists trying to banish the whole Islamic communities from the country.
For people growing up in Burma, rumours or genuine news of a Muslim man raping a Burmese girl starting a riot is pretty standard occurrence. Some may be genuine and spontaneous, some may be staged for desired results by people wanting some diversion or benefit out of it . But there is always that availability of this particular trigger all the time. But one must also note that most of the rumours and real events do not lead to any significant violence.
We now still has the scenario of the Taung Koke massacre which is totally out of the usual events. Never in the history of Burma, a mob has pulled down any religious group to kill them all violently. Whether one agrees with Lintner’s assumption or not, it is eerily similar to the event staged by the military on Aung San Suu Kyi’s entourage all those 9 years ago in Daparin.
Spontaneous looking mob, yet well armed with make-shift but efficient weapons, solid organization, choice of ideal location and victims. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle would have approved. Who were they? None are convicted thus far.
Simultaneously there was truly palpable tension especially in Mandalay concerning the overbearing Chinese influence in social, financial and political scene of Burma with many predicting a very near future violent out burst. That indeed has been, for now, put in the back burner. Taking down the Chinese letter billboards in Mandalay shows that more than a few people were concerned about that then.
It is also significant that you choose to post the “official” number of the casualties which most would believe are wrong and made up number in true military junta tradition just as well as the other numbers you could easily quote from publications of Rohingya advocates.
Specific point of usage of word is also notable. If one looked back the contemporaneous interviews, it seems that the journalist interviewers were very eager to put words into the mouth of the interviewee. A lot of them are still available in the You Tube. ” Would you say it is an ethinc cleansing going on?”, one asked.
Here it must also be noted that Arakanese have historically disliked the Burman ( both Buddhist by the way, and it is the reason) as the latter stole ( It is the usual word used to describe in Burmese but in fact it was robbery) four most important statutes of Buddha and managed to get two lost, one put in an indistinct place inside Burma and one is now second most important Buddhist shrine in Burma- Maha Myat Muni in Mandalay. The reason U Nu cozied up the Rohingya with radio station and all that was because of the Arakanese animosity towards the Burman. But it seems that time has passed.
Again Ne Win’s rabid nationalistic/ xenophobic attitude is not only notable but perhaps felt more than ever now as his ideological successors today are million times more organised and more powerful than he ever was and to top that they also enjoy the international acceptance and recognition of their immoral selves. (As an aside Ne Win was half Chinese like Khin Nyunt, hence more nationalistic, just like Radovan Karadiz, a born Montenegran (even though Serbian parents), Napoleon, a Corsican of Italian descent,and Bavarian Hitler).
The hate-speech in the internet is most felt by the uninitiated out side observers. It may perhaps need to be seen with cultural backgound. Burmese naturally simply talk loose, most they do not mean. Eg. They routinely call their friends “Ma aye pay” meaning “you who gave me your mother” or “Khwe Thadaung zar” meaning “Begging dog” or at the least “Hey Kaung”, a phrase usually one uses to call animals.
It was no doubt objectionable and condemnable. But the international press, academics and organizations got stuck on this particular issue and reacted violently in kind in their own way taking away the chance for cool reflection. This would have inflamed the sentiments among the Muslim world against the Buddhists and Burmese in particular. There has been death and destruction as well as threat to Burmese overseas even today. There were emotional uncalled for generalizations and condemnation by most commentators which is still going on and has been counter-productive except for catharsis on the part of the writer.
Most legitimate brand new news agencies in Burma were following up the nationalistic hyperbole almost comparable to Radio Rwanda at the time of the killings in 1994 following the lead from Facebook misinformation campaign of one of Thein Sein’s staff- a fact people conveniently ignore to point out about their favourite “President”.
If any thing, the military timed this harsh/inhumane crackdown right. After calling bluff of the international community putting up the sanction for that amorphous “Human Rights”, there is no doubt that no one would much as think of a single ill word, let alone retribution for the sake of 800,000 odd inconsequential poor, mostly illiterate peasant Rohingya. That goes in fact for the Muslim countries as well. The Indonesian reaction was a one month postponement of engagement, purely symbolic more akin to waiting for the domestic disquiet to settle rather than any conviction. And of course no one wants the Rohingya people. There are simply arm chair charity cases.
There is a distinct worry of the current rocketing rise of Salafism around the world looking for a uniting cause for all Muslim to champion. That current Anti- Islam You Tube video affair may have done a favour to the Burmese in this matter.
Aung San Suu Kyi really has not done any open public policy decision on any thing to help any of the Burmese citizens in the last year and a half since she had a chance and all she come out again is usual high school essay type musing of no practical value which people scramble to interpret high value and meaning. She did not call for the talk with Muslim community in Rangoon at the time. The misleading picture in the Irrawaddy with her talking to two Muslim men was at a public meeting where those two went to see her and were simply comforted. That’s all. There was no wider policy decision/ discussion or advice. The suggestion that she simply does not want to antagonise the Buddhist voters is pure speculation on people who routinely interpret non-existent significance of her inactions. Even if it is true, that inaction is not worthy of any little leader aspirant.
The timeliness of this post is the article in Mizzima of U Tun Khin.
For the first time ever publicly, there is a conciliatory and constructive, positive note in his communication. He did not mention usual rhetoric of thousands of bodies piled in the rivers or millions of displaced Rohingya around the world or Burmese government must give compensations to millions who had to flee sort of non-constructive weave. But harks back to his own personal experiences to persuade the reader.
And for the first time he recognises the suffering of the Arakanese. A fact international NGO’s and most journalists has studiously avoided. He also said Rohingya should try to understand the Arakanese, again not something ever recommended by Chris Lewa or Ben Rogers or Zoe Daniels. None mentioned how BOTH sides should try to understand each other. This has been a sore point for the Arakanese on the ground as they do live perpetually in fear of physical violence- real or perceived. Only last week someone’s cut up body photo surfaced in the internet. Violent as it was, most probably it was a robbery but could easily have triggered another round of killings, and would have put more fear in the community. A frightened community for any reason at all is a dangerous one.
Here Tun Khin again suggested talks between and to the LOCAL community leaders of both sides and for the international communities to help them. And to focus on solving community problems together and fight poverty together.It is the most sensible solution put forth by any body. Significant exception was not having anything to do with Thein Sein which was perceived as counter-productive. Quite rightly.
It is indeed totally ridiculous that totally ridiculous and insane demand of rooting out the whole Rohingya community by none other than the “highest” authority of the country, the President, Thein Sein was let pass un-condemned. By the international community. It is symptomatic of the moral bankruptcy of the world run by international conglomerates siding with the insane aggressor ignoring the plight of inconsequential people.
The monks’ demonstration led by Wirathu was most predictable. He has been known to have good relation with some of the regime members like Aung Thaung who ostensibly does not hold any official position now but are truly powerful by virtue of being “IN’ man. Just like Tin Aung Myint Oo.
The Burmese public reaction which caught most of the observers off guard is indeed ironic. The military has its foundation of extreme nationalism and chauvinism. Now they are literally getting away with murder in Kachin, Arakan, Karen land, Shan State, everywhere. Yet there are more and more recognition and accolades as well as material support for them by the international communities. And by the Democracy Poster Girl Aung San Suu Kyi. If this is not the message for the Burmese populace to ape the thugs and be arrogant, nationalistic and aggressive, nothing will be.
Yet it would pay to remember that in spite of the low, low opinion of the “international observers”, majority Burmese traditionally were and are one of the most tolerant people who have lived peacefully side by side with people of other religion and persuasion for millennia.
Whether the international community choose to pamper the chauvinistic regime in changed clothes just because they hold the resource keys or genuine public who are still struggling on the street while their erstwhile leaders hobnob with their own jailers and torturers will have lasting effect not only on this nasty affair which is currently heading to a sticky end, but the future of stable, peaceful Burma.
Doesn’t take much to get the old Commies out of the woodwork does it? Yeah we know, Stalin never murdered millions, nor Mao and now neither did Pol Pot. Communism is a peoples utopia, party officials don’t live like Kings, the masses aren’t oppressed, murdered and spied upon. Maybe they are hoping the generations that saw this vile philosophy in action are all retired and there is a new generation to con.
Progressives like to forget that communism was their long term goal, how many of them went to Russia and endorsed its system?
The Americans certainly are not the good guys they paint themselves and have done many bad things, but they are amateurs compared to the evil communist regimes always cause, and without exception.
Tom Hoy, the USA never had a monarch to lose, they were a colony of England and there were many immigrants who resented being treated like inferior peoples. They kicked out a non resident government and monarch who were mis-treating them. Two wars were fought, and won, over it because the arrogant English King would not recognize their independence after he lost the first war. Both of my parents are descended from signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America.
There is a fetid current within liberal Western intellectual thought which basically demonizes the West in general and particularly the United States. Those floating within this current seem to begin all thought from the premise that just about everything can be blamed on Western imperialism in one form or another, they simply have to explain how the West was responsible. The results of this particular article of faith can be bizarre, leading certain characters on the hard political left to climb in bed, metaphorically, with deeply conservative religious fanatics and various other unsavory enemies of liberal democracy. So when someone claims that Pol Pot was actually quite a decent fellow really, I feel outraged, but not surprised. After all, he wasn’t an American. I’m sure Stalin and Mao, too, had everyone’s best interests at heart when they slaughtered millions of their own people. Can’t make an omelet without breaking any eggs, can you?
Please let my previous post go. This is a very serious and necessary debate.
Since that post, a young Arakan boy, selling ice lolly on foot by himself has been beaten to death in day light with NO provocation by Rohingya youths in Sittwe.
It is this sort of time it would be truly helpful for people like Tun Khin, Narul Islam or even Chris Lewa , Ben Rogers, Francis Wade to comment whether they feel this boy deserve to be beaten to death because of these horrible talks in the internet by so many unknown typists, or because of the monks or other scores to settle or if they think there must be something different done to stop such hatred and violence to come forth as we all know that nominal Thein Sein government’s reaction would be saying the Rohingya being animals and should be exterminated like vermins again.
All these tragedies are opportunities (sad as it is) as well for people with good intention.
For example, there were boats lost at sea at the time of height of the riots. And there were Burmese navy boats nearby. If there were genuine good will, easiest thing would be to rescue them and treat them well and they, by virtue of not really being animal, will think twice before they bite the feeding finger.
Same goes with current treatment of the majority Rohingya. With current buoyant Arakan nationalism and bullying attitude, the tragedies are likely to snowball especially after the global Muslim community’s attention is once again refocussed.
I don’t know that Israel Shamir is ‘a holocaust denier’ … unless this is the holocaust you are ‘crediting’ him with denying. I don’t know if the atrocities committed on the ground rather than from the air were committed by the Khmer Rouge or by the Vietnamese. I do know who committed immeasurable atrocity by air. This polemic makes an endlessly important point.
If the Cambodians are pressed to name their great destroyer (and they are not keen about burrowing back into the past), it is Professor Henry Kissinger they name … The Americans have an additional good reason [to present every alternative to their rule as inept or bloody or both] : Pol Pot killings serve to hide their own atrocities, the millions of Indochinese they napalmed and strafed.
I don’t know what Noam Chomsky has written about the Khmer Rounge, but I’m sure it’s not ‘drivel’. I know drivel when I see it. This ‘report’ is drivel.
The Russian monarchy was deposed by democracy-minded Russian people eh? I didn’t realize or had forgotten, but thanks Hoy.
It is encouraging to know though that not all entrenched dynastic monarchies would have to be deposed by people’s blood, rivers of it usually (was my impression after some lively discussions with one StanG). But that Hoy term ‘broad coalition’ would be the key for any peaceful transition permanently . . . with reference to the Thai monarchy of course. That broad coalition is totally absent in the Thai context however. Instead Thai political groups of all shapes and colors are at each other’s throats not on the issue of Thai monarchy (which could last another 100 years maybe), but because of the divisive issue of one Thaksin Shinawatra who would not leave the Thai people in peace.
The ‘Thai Rouge’ could still prevail a-la the savagery of Khmer Rouge; yes that is possible isn’t it? The Bolsheviks were just waiting to strike while that shaky ‘broad coalition’ had no clue when they deposed of the Czar. So too could the Thai Rouge (lots of Maoists within their leadership, yes?) strike after any broad coalition of sorts somehow emerged to remove Thailand’s monarchy.
“By contrast, in the Islamic world there has been dismay about the treatment of the Rohingya.”
Meanwhile, the Islamic world remains silent as Syria wages war against its own people or when mobs in Indonesia attack religious minorities. While I sympathize with the plight of the Rohingya, the Islamic world’s response strikes me as hypocrisy.
The Russian Bolsheviks deposed the liberal-democratic Kerensky government which had replaced the Czarist regime who was deposed by a broad coalition. Unfortunately, Kerensky’s government wanted to continue the war and paid the penalty. The Bolsheviks did, though, execute the Czar and his family. But ultimately it was the Russian
people who initially got rid of the Czar. As it turned out, Stalinist/Leninism was a tragedy of history but the deposition of the Czar was not.
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Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
er … so what is it gentlemen, should we mourn and grieve for Osama Bin Laden, or if that is too strong, at least help Wikileaks Assange from being ‘raped’ by the merciless Obama regime?
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
Sort of a postscript to the last post really:
This from Barak Obama Sept 2012:
“We want to send a message all around the world to anybody who will do us harm – no act of terror will dim the light of the values that we proudly shine on the rest of the world,”
“We will not be deterred – we will keep going, we will keep going because the world needs us. We are the one indispensable power in the world.”
This would scarcely be less credible if it had been said by Josef Stalin or Goebbels. It seems to me there is a yawning (and increasing) chasm between the way that the USA sees itself and the way the rest of the world sees it; more and more commentators are hypothesising that we are seeing the decline of the USA as a superpower, and that it only has itself and its messianic self-image to blame.
Personally, I doubt that China would be any better, and it looks like we will find out in the next 50 years or so. What is sure is that if I had a choice today, between the USA in the past 80 years and the Spanish Inquisition, I think I would be hard pushed to tell them apart by looking at their positive influence on the world.
Annie
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
Someone named Alan Taylor interviewed Noam Chomsky for the Sunday Herald/UK of 20 March, 2005.
I noticed it at that hotbed of lukewarm mediocrity, Commondreams. Taylor closes with a quote from the driveling old gnome himself …
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
In answer to your reasonable question, this is from ‘Counterpunch’ http://www.counterpunch.org/
“Similarly, William Blum’s study “A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower,” covered 67 interventions between 1945 and 2000 that, according to him, resulted in the deaths of 13-17 million people. In his book “The Fall of the U.S. Empire – And Then What?,” European intellectual Johan Galtung listed 161 incidents of American overt political violence between 1945 and 2001, including 67 military interventions, 25 bombings, 35 political assassinations (or attempted ones), 11 foreign countries that were assisted with torture, and 23 interferences with elections or the political process abroad. And all that was before the 9/11 attacks.”
Whatever one think of the politics of Counterpunch, if these numbers are correct, and they do not, evidently, originate with Counterpunch, then it is a major problem for the self-styled ‘leader of the free world’.
Certainly Jimmy Carter recently made a compelling argument that the USA has lost its [alleged] moral authority in the world, and is now seen as a major problem rather than a major solution. The declining approval rates for USA in the past 10 years (published elsewhere) are devastating.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
Greg Lopez …
Robert McNamera put the number of Vietnamese he killed at three million. Others say only two. Far too many people still suffering today from the US attempt to poison the very earth itself in Indochina.
Then they’re the Lao, Cambodians, Iraqis, Afghans … They say a half million Iraqis were killed by the sanctions … before the Invasion. Madeleine Albright figured it was worth it. Maybe a million after the invasion …
Now we’re drunk with murder and mayhem. The serial aggressions continue … the world is living under our drones. It’s a growth industry.
Somewhat resistant at first, all the Western elite seem in general agreement now. All war, all the time.
In fact … a bit of that war is starting to come home … in Greece, in Spain … lots of folks whisting past the graveyard.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
Maybe it was the line about the ‘NGO reps’? Another exaggeration, no doubt …
On Republicanism in Thailand
It’s frankly pretty ridiculous to talk about “republicanism” in Thailand, when the most successful challenge to the Thai military, in decades, is currently being waged by Muslim separatists who want a caliphate.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
I guess the reason that the US is the greatest power in history is that they can do exactly what Pol Pot did to his citizens (to others ofcourse – e.g. Vietnam, Iraq, etc) and not only get away with it, but proclaim it as some noble cause (defending human rights, liberating oppressed groups, getting rid of dictators, etc)
It would be great to put some numbers to these atrocities (the Holocaust, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc) against US military expansion/intervention. It will be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
What’s next for Shamir, Hitler was a truly sympathetic guy who’s been purposely “misunderstood” by U.S./Globalist dominated history professors bribed with tenure at all the U.S./Globalist universities? Hitler was just trying to organize the sturdy rural Volk (the “real” Germans) to overthrow those mean and selfish Jews, capitalists and middle-men/parasites living high off the labor of the Volk, and to help liberate all the oppressed rural downtrodden people of the earth living under jackboot of British imperialism.
Sectarian strife in western Myanmar
Re-posting. Apologies for being long.
Thanks for the post Nich. Well timed. There has been a perceptible gap of Burma related posts since this affair erupted.
It is also, in the calm of the aftermath, nice to see no mentioning of the usual features by “neutral observers”, indignant of the vitriol of the netizens (again Burmese versions are thousands of time worse than the English ones) and on the ground action of the players, describing the affair as all out Burmese Buddhists trying to banish the whole Islamic communities from the country.
For people growing up in Burma, rumours or genuine news of a Muslim man raping a Burmese girl starting a riot is pretty standard occurrence. Some may be genuine and spontaneous, some may be staged for desired results by people wanting some diversion or benefit out of it . But there is always that availability of this particular trigger all the time. But one must also note that most of the rumours and real events do not lead to any significant violence.
We now still has the scenario of the Taung Koke massacre which is totally out of the usual events. Never in the history of Burma, a mob has pulled down any religious group to kill them all violently. Whether one agrees with Lintner’s assumption or not, it is eerily similar to the event staged by the military on Aung San Suu Kyi’s entourage all those 9 years ago in Daparin.
Spontaneous looking mob, yet well armed with make-shift but efficient weapons, solid organization, choice of ideal location and victims. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle would have approved. Who were they? None are convicted thus far.
Simultaneously there was truly palpable tension especially in Mandalay concerning the overbearing Chinese influence in social, financial and political scene of Burma with many predicting a very near future violent out burst. That indeed has been, for now, put in the back burner. Taking down the Chinese letter billboards in Mandalay shows that more than a few people were concerned about that then.
It is also significant that you choose to post the “official” number of the casualties which most would believe are wrong and made up number in true military junta tradition just as well as the other numbers you could easily quote from publications of Rohingya advocates.
Specific point of usage of word is also notable. If one looked back the contemporaneous interviews, it seems that the journalist interviewers were very eager to put words into the mouth of the interviewee. A lot of them are still available in the You Tube. ” Would you say it is an ethinc cleansing going on?”, one asked.
Here it must also be noted that Arakanese have historically disliked the Burman ( both Buddhist by the way, and it is the reason) as the latter stole ( It is the usual word used to describe in Burmese but in fact it was robbery) four most important statutes of Buddha and managed to get two lost, one put in an indistinct place inside Burma and one is now second most important Buddhist shrine in Burma- Maha Myat Muni in Mandalay. The reason U Nu cozied up the Rohingya with radio station and all that was because of the Arakanese animosity towards the Burman. But it seems that time has passed.
Again Ne Win’s rabid nationalistic/ xenophobic attitude is not only notable but perhaps felt more than ever now as his ideological successors today are million times more organised and more powerful than he ever was and to top that they also enjoy the international acceptance and recognition of their immoral selves. (As an aside Ne Win was half Chinese like Khin Nyunt, hence more nationalistic, just like Radovan Karadiz, a born Montenegran (even though Serbian parents), Napoleon, a Corsican of Italian descent,and Bavarian Hitler).
The hate-speech in the internet is most felt by the uninitiated out side observers. It may perhaps need to be seen with cultural backgound. Burmese naturally simply talk loose, most they do not mean. Eg. They routinely call their friends “Ma aye pay” meaning “you who gave me your mother” or “Khwe Thadaung zar” meaning “Begging dog” or at the least “Hey Kaung”, a phrase usually one uses to call animals.
It was no doubt objectionable and condemnable. But the international press, academics and organizations got stuck on this particular issue and reacted violently in kind in their own way taking away the chance for cool reflection. This would have inflamed the sentiments among the Muslim world against the Buddhists and Burmese in particular. There has been death and destruction as well as threat to Burmese overseas even today. There were emotional uncalled for generalizations and condemnation by most commentators which is still going on and has been counter-productive except for catharsis on the part of the writer.
Most legitimate brand new news agencies in Burma were following up the nationalistic hyperbole almost comparable to Radio Rwanda at the time of the killings in 1994 following the lead from Facebook misinformation campaign of one of Thein Sein’s staff- a fact people conveniently ignore to point out about their favourite “President”.
If any thing, the military timed this harsh/inhumane crackdown right. After calling bluff of the international community putting up the sanction for that amorphous “Human Rights”, there is no doubt that no one would much as think of a single ill word, let alone retribution for the sake of 800,000 odd inconsequential poor, mostly illiterate peasant Rohingya. That goes in fact for the Muslim countries as well. The Indonesian reaction was a one month postponement of engagement, purely symbolic more akin to waiting for the domestic disquiet to settle rather than any conviction. And of course no one wants the Rohingya people. There are simply arm chair charity cases.
There is a distinct worry of the current rocketing rise of Salafism around the world looking for a uniting cause for all Muslim to champion. That current Anti- Islam You Tube video affair may have done a favour to the Burmese in this matter.
Aung San Suu Kyi really has not done any open public policy decision on any thing to help any of the Burmese citizens in the last year and a half since she had a chance and all she come out again is usual high school essay type musing of no practical value which people scramble to interpret high value and meaning. She did not call for the talk with Muslim community in Rangoon at the time. The misleading picture in the Irrawaddy with her talking to two Muslim men was at a public meeting where those two went to see her and were simply comforted. That’s all. There was no wider policy decision/ discussion or advice. The suggestion that she simply does not want to antagonise the Buddhist voters is pure speculation on people who routinely interpret non-existent significance of her inactions. Even if it is true, that inaction is not worthy of any little leader aspirant.
The timeliness of this post is the article in Mizzima of U Tun Khin.
http://www.mizzima.com/edop/commentary/8115-an-appeal-for-peace-in-rakhine-state.html
For the first time ever publicly, there is a conciliatory and constructive, positive note in his communication. He did not mention usual rhetoric of thousands of bodies piled in the rivers or millions of displaced Rohingya around the world or Burmese government must give compensations to millions who had to flee sort of non-constructive weave. But harks back to his own personal experiences to persuade the reader.
And for the first time he recognises the suffering of the Arakanese. A fact international NGO’s and most journalists has studiously avoided. He also said Rohingya should try to understand the Arakanese, again not something ever recommended by Chris Lewa or Ben Rogers or Zoe Daniels. None mentioned how BOTH sides should try to understand each other. This has been a sore point for the Arakanese on the ground as they do live perpetually in fear of physical violence- real or perceived. Only last week someone’s cut up body photo surfaced in the internet. Violent as it was, most probably it was a robbery but could easily have triggered another round of killings, and would have put more fear in the community. A frightened community for any reason at all is a dangerous one.
Here Tun Khin again suggested talks between and to the LOCAL community leaders of both sides and for the international communities to help them. And to focus on solving community problems together and fight poverty together.It is the most sensible solution put forth by any body. Significant exception was not having anything to do with Thein Sein which was perceived as counter-productive. Quite rightly.
It is indeed totally ridiculous that totally ridiculous and insane demand of rooting out the whole Rohingya community by none other than the “highest” authority of the country, the President, Thein Sein was let pass un-condemned. By the international community. It is symptomatic of the moral bankruptcy of the world run by international conglomerates siding with the insane aggressor ignoring the plight of inconsequential people.
The monks’ demonstration led by Wirathu was most predictable. He has been known to have good relation with some of the regime members like Aung Thaung who ostensibly does not hold any official position now but are truly powerful by virtue of being “IN’ man. Just like Tin Aung Myint Oo.
The Burmese public reaction which caught most of the observers off guard is indeed ironic. The military has its foundation of extreme nationalism and chauvinism. Now they are literally getting away with murder in Kachin, Arakan, Karen land, Shan State, everywhere. Yet there are more and more recognition and accolades as well as material support for them by the international communities. And by the Democracy Poster Girl Aung San Suu Kyi. If this is not the message for the Burmese populace to ape the thugs and be arrogant, nationalistic and aggressive, nothing will be.
Yet it would pay to remember that in spite of the low, low opinion of the “international observers”, majority Burmese traditionally were and are one of the most tolerant people who have lived peacefully side by side with people of other religion and persuasion for millennia.
Whether the international community choose to pamper the chauvinistic regime in changed clothes just because they hold the resource keys or genuine public who are still struggling on the street while their erstwhile leaders hobnob with their own jailers and torturers will have lasting effect not only on this nasty affair which is currently heading to a sticky end, but the future of stable, peaceful Burma.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
Doesn’t take much to get the old Commies out of the woodwork does it? Yeah we know, Stalin never murdered millions, nor Mao and now neither did Pol Pot. Communism is a peoples utopia, party officials don’t live like Kings, the masses aren’t oppressed, murdered and spied upon. Maybe they are hoping the generations that saw this vile philosophy in action are all retired and there is a new generation to con.
Progressives like to forget that communism was their long term goal, how many of them went to Russia and endorsed its system?
The Americans certainly are not the good guys they paint themselves and have done many bad things, but they are amateurs compared to the evil communist regimes always cause, and without exception.
On Republicanism in Thailand
Tom Hoy, the USA never had a monarch to lose, they were a colony of England and there were many immigrants who resented being treated like inferior peoples. They kicked out a non resident government and monarch who were mis-treating them. Two wars were fought, and won, over it because the arrogant English King would not recognize their independence after he lost the first war. Both of my parents are descended from signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
There is a fetid current within liberal Western intellectual thought which basically demonizes the West in general and particularly the United States. Those floating within this current seem to begin all thought from the premise that just about everything can be blamed on Western imperialism in one form or another, they simply have to explain how the West was responsible. The results of this particular article of faith can be bizarre, leading certain characters on the hard political left to climb in bed, metaphorically, with deeply conservative religious fanatics and various other unsavory enemies of liberal democracy. So when someone claims that Pol Pot was actually quite a decent fellow really, I feel outraged, but not surprised. After all, he wasn’t an American. I’m sure Stalin and Mao, too, had everyone’s best interests at heart when they slaughtered millions of their own people. Can’t make an omelet without breaking any eggs, can you?
Sectarian strife in western Myanmar
Nich,
Please let my previous post go. This is a very serious and necessary debate.
Since that post, a young Arakan boy, selling ice lolly on foot by himself has been beaten to death in day light with NO provocation by Rohingya youths in Sittwe.
It is this sort of time it would be truly helpful for people like Tun Khin, Narul Islam or even Chris Lewa , Ben Rogers, Francis Wade to comment whether they feel this boy deserve to be beaten to death because of these horrible talks in the internet by so many unknown typists, or because of the monks or other scores to settle or if they think there must be something different done to stop such hatred and violence to come forth as we all know that nominal Thein Sein government’s reaction would be saying the Rohingya being animals and should be exterminated like vermins again.
All these tragedies are opportunities (sad as it is) as well for people with good intention.
For example, there were boats lost at sea at the time of height of the riots. And there were Burmese navy boats nearby. If there were genuine good will, easiest thing would be to rescue them and treat them well and they, by virtue of not really being animal, will think twice before they bite the feeding finger.
Same goes with current treatment of the majority Rohingya. With current buoyant Arakan nationalism and bullying attitude, the tragedies are likely to snowball especially after the global Muslim community’s attention is once again refocussed.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
I don’t know that Israel Shamir is ‘a holocaust denier’ … unless this is the holocaust you are ‘crediting’ him with denying. I don’t know if the atrocities committed on the ground rather than from the air were committed by the Khmer Rouge or by the Vietnamese. I do know who committed immeasurable atrocity by air. This polemic makes an endlessly important point.
I don’t know what Noam Chomsky has written about the Khmer Rounge, but I’m sure it’s not ‘drivel’. I know drivel when I see it. This ‘report’ is drivel.
On Republicanism in Thailand
The Russian monarchy was deposed by democracy-minded Russian people eh? I didn’t realize or had forgotten, but thanks Hoy.
It is encouraging to know though that not all entrenched dynastic monarchies would have to be deposed by people’s blood, rivers of it usually (was my impression after some lively discussions with one StanG). But that Hoy term ‘broad coalition’ would be the key for any peaceful transition permanently . . . with reference to the Thai monarchy of course. That broad coalition is totally absent in the Thai context however. Instead Thai political groups of all shapes and colors are at each other’s throats not on the issue of Thai monarchy (which could last another 100 years maybe), but because of the divisive issue of one Thaksin Shinawatra who would not leave the Thai people in peace.
The ‘Thai Rouge’ could still prevail a-la the savagery of Khmer Rouge; yes that is possible isn’t it? The Bolsheviks were just waiting to strike while that shaky ‘broad coalition’ had no clue when they deposed of the Czar. So too could the Thai Rouge (lots of Maoists within their leadership, yes?) strike after any broad coalition of sorts somehow emerged to remove Thailand’s monarchy.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
Shudder.
Thanks for highlighting this.
Sectarian strife in western Myanmar
“By contrast, in the Islamic world there has been dismay about the treatment of the Rohingya.”
Meanwhile, the Islamic world remains silent as Syria wages war against its own people or when mobs in Indonesia attack religious minorities. While I sympathize with the plight of the Rohingya, the Islamic world’s response strikes me as hypocrisy.
On Republicanism in Thailand
Vichai N
The Russian Bolsheviks deposed the liberal-democratic Kerensky government which had replaced the Czarist regime who was deposed by a broad coalition. Unfortunately, Kerensky’s government wanted to continue the war and paid the penalty. The Bolsheviks did, though, execute the Czar and his family. But ultimately it was the Russian
people who initially got rid of the Czar. As it turned out, Stalinist/Leninism was a tragedy of history but the deposition of the Czar was not.
On Republicanism in Thailand
And then I thought it was Lon Nol who overthrew Sihanouk and made himself president of the country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Nol
Computers are just amazing.