Leaving aside Lanna (where the ethnicity and language is closer to that of Luang Prabang than Central Thailand), in 1826 the new king of Vieng Chan, Chao Anou (who was originally Siamese educated and Siam sponsored), attacked the Siamese but was quickly driven back. Chao Anou died a captive in Bangkok and Vieng Chan was sacked by the Siamese whilst its population was driven into exile en masse east of the Mekong to Siam, large parts of which remain heavily Lao in character to this day. All of Laos was now under the Thai thumb…… A situation altered subsequently by French incursion. This event in the history of the region is defining marker in both Lao and Thai history….. The division is largely a false one anyway. One of the wonderful things about Thailand as a country are the varied ethnicities of the peoples….. And, in many ways, the Lao and Khmer influence is more ‘defining’ across the nation than what one might consider purely ‘Thai’…. This is a neutral historical observation….. Not an attempt to undermine any pride anyone may feel in being Thai (or indeed Lao)….. The modern ‘Thai’ identity is as mixed up as the modern ‘English’ identity….. Nothing wrong with that.
Nick, you have such a way of putting things, I couldn’t have said it as well. You summed it up quite well.
Hope I did not upset any Australians with my sarcasm.
I am sorry to have to tell you this, but we *ALL* are of the same race as we share the same ancestry: a small group of homo sapiens that left Africa about 50 000 years ago. Yes – your and my ancestors were both black skinned Negroids, and even further back – they were amoeba that over millions of years turned into moneys, and than developed into early humanoids, slowly creeping along the ladder of evolution.
The difference between your “asian” and my “white” appearance is nothing but a very slight adaptation to the climate our ancestors grew up in – hardly a difference in our genes. Like it or not – we are of the same race.
Thais in particular are a amazing mixture of different cultures, mostly due to centuries/millennia of many waves of migrations to the region that is now Thailand, and its geo-political position of an important trade center. The homogeneity of the *Thai race* is nothing but a very recent artificial construct of ideology, and not supported by science.
As to genocidal tendencies, i believe that when going back in history and looking how *Thailand* became the nation it is now, quite a bit of genocide was employed by your ancestors as well. Siam taking over parts of Laos and the kingdom of Pattani did not go exactly by being *lovable*…
And as Thais being “one”, outsiders “creating” conflicts – sorry, but i have rarely read such rubbish here. Thailand is highly divided, artificially held together by a outdated and collapsing state ideology, and on the way of modernization, in which the differences and divisions in society can be accepted and healed by a not yet found new social contract. The conflict is a natural result of this process, an inevitable process that many societies went through already, and others not yet.
And please do not start with Thai exceptionalism – Thailand is not any more different from the rest of the world as any other country/society is.
Jesse, your anti- Australian rants are wasted on me, and why are you insulting me by calling me an Australian, when I have never set foot on that continent, and find most of the tourists from there offensive.
And after 25 years up in these hills, I have learned that the Lanna people do have their own written language, and history, and one can recognize the Chinese and Thai immigrants to this area by their physical features and a different point of view than those who have inhabited this area for hundreds of years. And the old people here have told me that up until about a hundred years ago, there were very few Thai people up here outside of a few soldiers and Kings officials
Such an irony Jesse, did our king forget to distribute the same newspaper/book in the south??
Chanida – 67
The difference between the two is you can criticized one but you cant do the same with the other.
Maybe you should study a bit about our king staller projects, like how the fake rain really not so effective since it didn’t help much with drought because there’s no way to redirect the cloud to the area where the water is really needed or the Pakpanang reservoir project that totally devastated the ecosystem that our bird nest industry is in shamble.
Where specifically do you see Walker claiming that there is a public debate akin to the one you’ve outlined taking place? He doesn’t. What he does claim is that there are opinions. Glasses?
Patrick Jory seemingly makes a vehement case against the monarchy and then attacks people who are similarly inclined for supposedly not being not as anti-monarchy as he is. Good way to alienate support.
Are you unable to grasp a jab in jest to lighten the mood? No, apparently not. The dark clouds must surround your skull in the ditchwater of Thai studies as you wade through trivium to satisfy some petty urge for a righteousness, somewhere and somehow. What more help could I possibly give beyond saying you are strident? Perhaps I could say you are strident in a position of myopia. You have proven it here again.
Oh yes, glad you clarified your position. A position with which I have agreed consistently. Unfortunately thinking you may have been drunk seems to have been giving you too much credit.
People like you are the one that try to create conflicts in the society. The people in the area you mentioned are THAIS. No matter how you want to dig up their backgrounds. And we are all of same race. The people who lived in Lanna were Asians in appearance. And in case you don’t know we have been living in this land longer than the white people that took the land in Australia. We were quite lovable that we didn’t find idiotic reasons to genocide people who looked or talked different to us. Eventually we became one.
– When Lanna became part of Siam, the King used intelligent tactic by distributing newspapers, books for Lanna people to feel a part of Siam and to learn the language
– When you came to Australia, you killed and banned the native people from speaking their own languages.
Maybe I am side-tracking from the topic and then again maybe not. But Andrew MacGreggor Marshall started it with his Thaksin-photo-hoisting-at-the-Olympic-medals-awarding, and Tom Hoy said that would be beautiful indeed (beauty, solemnity and the sublime all existing in the eyes of the beholder).
Has anyone watched yet the video clip of the Russian Pussy Riots recent anti-Putin performance at the Moscow Orthodox Church that earned the ‘Pussies’ a 2-year sentence for hooliganism? Their performance (at a church!) was awful, sacrilegious and (not understanding Russian) full of profanities I am guessing. But that must have been intentional from the ‘Pussies’ to make their ‘artistic’ political anti-Putin point.
My point to Marshall, Hoy and maybe the Christians among the NM readers, should the Pussies be condemned or praised? Everything about that particular Pussy Riot’s performance was un-beautiful, un-solemn and un-sublime . . . and at a church (blasphemy!). Artistic? Sir Paul McCartney seem to to think so and he is Sir Paul . . . so what do I know.
There’s a time and a place for the beautiful and the sublime. Hoisting a Thaksin photo at an Olympics medals ceremony will NOT be beautiful and will NOT be sublime. Why that would . . . er almost be ‘hooliganism’!
Thanks very much for this interesting piece of historical information. Ironically, even 100 years after this letter was written, the oppression of the Vietnamese people Ho condemned is still there, only that the colonial French have been replaced by a clique of Vietnamese communists.
Chan Myae Khine’s self description on Global Voices reads: “tiny gal with HUGE dreams.” This New Mandala posting has as much relationship to reality as any dream. She was recently funded to attend a Global Voices meeting in Africa. Are voices like hers the global voices we need to hear?
Giving great opportunities for all to write with ample bias. This horrid affair of killing and burning orgy has spawn prolific examples of such writings from all quarters.
Possibly most damaging would be by the “Human Rights” workers and “academics”, indignant at these presumed docile Buddhist Burmese letting them down, coming down harsh and intentially or unintentially labelling the affair as the Burmese Buddhists vs generic Muslim.
Among such writings, this one, second Burma related post in NM since June, came in as Thein Sein promotion service perhaps parallel in the opposite side to that remarkable Sai Latt’s article in bias, misrepresentation and false opinion.
28th May- 27 year old Thida Htwe, on the way home from a sewing class at nearby village was robbed of her jewellery, repeated raped and killed violently. Three people were arrested and kept at different police station to avert mob revenge. One of them reportedly hanged himself using his own clothes in custody on the 9th June. On the 18th June the other two were found guilty to rape and murder in a remarkably short court hearing and were given death sentences which in the usual practice were not carried out in Burma.
Leaflets carrying Thida Htwe’s horrific pictures urging for revenge circulated in towns in Arakan before one was put on print in a journal. On the 3rd of June ten Muslim men, eight from central Burma on a religious visit, were dragged out of a bus and killed violently by a mob. No one is yet convicted for it.
After Friday prayers on the 8th June, riot broke out in Maungdaw, a Rohingya majority town. It quickly spread to many towns including the state capital Sittwe with large Rohingya community. Curfew was put on 8th of June in these towns. State of emergency was declared by Thein Sein on the 10th June putting Arakan State under military administration.
New arson and riot with loss of three lives happened on the 8th August with curfew in three more towns.
Now there are visits from news agencies in the area. In Sittwe, Muslim quarters are literally flattened. Rohingya are in camps outside the town with armed forces in between. Buddhists are camped in town mainly at the monasteries.
Boat loads of people crossing overflowing Naaf River to Bangladesh were turned back by armed guards.
Sheikh Hasina, Bangladesh Prime Minister told Al Jazera on the 27th July “It’s Myanmar problem, not Bangladesh’s. I think you should talk to the Myanmar government, not to us on this issue. It’s not our responsibility, right?”
UN envoy VJ Nambier’s visit to the troubled area orchestrated by the military was a non- event.
Perpetual thankless task of Quintana, whose recommendation regularly gathers dust, was unceremoniously and tactlessly condemned by not only Thein Sein but by the whole of “democratic opposition”.
Aung San Suu Kyi has not put forth a single practical way forward of myriads of Burma’ problems in the whole of last year and any hope she might or can do something sensible in this delicate and intricate issue is futile.
If there were any doubt about Thein Sein’s policy, his 11th July meeting with UNHCR head settled it when he most bizarrely offered to pack off the Rohingya anywhere.
All these together with irresponsible generalization by the human rights groups (Buddhist vs Muslim all out war), and rampant evil exploitation by the extremist elements
paves the ground for further instability and organized opposition and harm against Burmese, in person and their interests as already seen in some parts of Asia.
One rai is 1,600 m┬▓, which equals 0.0016 km┬▓. Makes the price mentioned (presumably the figures are baht) as compensation for the land a lot less of a pittance.
The clash between civilized and primitive, between barbarity and rationality, between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship, civilization do not clash but compete. Wafa Sultan explained everything here.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqvskXCz-kk&feature=related
What exactly did you mean? You’re not making it very clear. You talk about “an obscure sort-of biblical/prophetic text that stupidly nobody paid attention to” and I’m not sure what you’re talking about. So I took a wild stab in the dark as to what you meant.
Your posts are obscure but certainly have no biblical or prophetic resonance. Patrick Jory’s posts present clear arguments – maybe wrong, maybe right – but I did not notice any arguments based on the Book of Revelations.
What is the strident position I have taken up? That people should have the freedom to say what they want about changes in the constitution?
Is there a particular point in my view that you disagree with? If you could tell me what it was, that would be more helpful in any discussion than saying I’m “strident”.
At the risk of flying off my soap box in rage, I never said 112 was unconstitutional. Of course, everything in the constitution is constitutional. If the constitution specifically gave me the right to free drinks and meals for the rest of my life, that would be constitutional.
What I am saying is that the constitution allows people to argue for different constitutional provisions. Is this Ok with you or does that proposition only stem from drunkenness?
Very nice. I like it. I don’t read the Journal regularly, at least in part because of the incompleteness of the archive online. So it is good to have this resource. Maybe it will help make JSS once again more of a magnet for high quality papers on Thailand.
If you’ve inferred from my question that I in any way, shape or form would belittle the debates privately held by farmers etc then you are wrong. I’m still trying to see how you would reach that conclusion given my comment and can only assume it is a weak attempt to diminish the point I was trying to make.
The simple point to be made is this – that an active, engaged and healthy public debate around the efficacy of the royal projects is almost non-existent and given the present shape of the LM laws nigh on impossible.
To imply that such a public debate is taking place is false.
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Thailand’s silver snatched?
Jesse #72
Leaving aside Lanna (where the ethnicity and language is closer to that of Luang Prabang than Central Thailand), in 1826 the new king of Vieng Chan, Chao Anou (who was originally Siamese educated and Siam sponsored), attacked the Siamese but was quickly driven back. Chao Anou died a captive in Bangkok and Vieng Chan was sacked by the Siamese whilst its population was driven into exile en masse east of the Mekong to Siam, large parts of which remain heavily Lao in character to this day. All of Laos was now under the Thai thumb…… A situation altered subsequently by French incursion. This event in the history of the region is defining marker in both Lao and Thai history….. The division is largely a false one anyway. One of the wonderful things about Thailand as a country are the varied ethnicities of the peoples….. And, in many ways, the Lao and Khmer influence is more ‘defining’ across the nation than what one might consider purely ‘Thai’…. This is a neutral historical observation….. Not an attempt to undermine any pride anyone may feel in being Thai (or indeed Lao)….. The modern ‘Thai’ identity is as mixed up as the modern ‘English’ identity….. Nothing wrong with that.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Nick, you have such a way of putting things, I couldn’t have said it as well. You summed it up quite well.
Hope I did not upset any Australians with my sarcasm.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
“Jesse”:
Oh my…the racism bell goes overdrive.
I am sorry to have to tell you this, but we *ALL* are of the same race as we share the same ancestry: a small group of homo sapiens that left Africa about 50 000 years ago. Yes – your and my ancestors were both black skinned Negroids, and even further back – they were amoeba that over millions of years turned into moneys, and than developed into early humanoids, slowly creeping along the ladder of evolution.
The difference between your “asian” and my “white” appearance is nothing but a very slight adaptation to the climate our ancestors grew up in – hardly a difference in our genes. Like it or not – we are of the same race.
Thais in particular are a amazing mixture of different cultures, mostly due to centuries/millennia of many waves of migrations to the region that is now Thailand, and its geo-political position of an important trade center. The homogeneity of the *Thai race* is nothing but a very recent artificial construct of ideology, and not supported by science.
As to genocidal tendencies, i believe that when going back in history and looking how *Thailand* became the nation it is now, quite a bit of genocide was employed by your ancestors as well. Siam taking over parts of Laos and the kingdom of Pattani did not go exactly by being *lovable*…
And as Thais being “one”, outsiders “creating” conflicts – sorry, but i have rarely read such rubbish here. Thailand is highly divided, artificially held together by a outdated and collapsing state ideology, and on the way of modernization, in which the differences and divisions in society can be accepted and healed by a not yet found new social contract. The conflict is a natural result of this process, an inevitable process that many societies went through already, and others not yet.
And please do not start with Thai exceptionalism – Thailand is not any more different from the rest of the world as any other country/society is.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Jesse, your anti- Australian rants are wasted on me, and why are you insulting me by calling me an Australian, when I have never set foot on that continent, and find most of the tourists from there offensive.
And after 25 years up in these hills, I have learned that the Lanna people do have their own written language, and history, and one can recognize the Chinese and Thai immigrants to this area by their physical features and a different point of view than those who have inhabited this area for hundreds of years. And the old people here have told me that up until about a hundred years ago, there were very few Thai people up here outside of a few soldiers and Kings officials
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Jesse -72
Such an irony Jesse, did our king forget to distribute the same newspaper/book in the south??
Chanida – 67
The difference between the two is you can criticized one but you cant do the same with the other.
Maybe you should study a bit about our king staller projects, like how the fake rain really not so effective since it didn’t help much with drought because there’s no way to redirect the cloud to the area where the water is really needed or the Pakpanang reservoir project that totally devastated the ecosystem that our bird nest industry is in shamble.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Vichai N
It doesn’t really matter whether you or I or Andrew Magregor Marshall thinks that a particular protest is beautiful or not.
What matters is that people should be able to say what they think.
I won’t be responding to any more of your posts because you twist people’s words and say that they said things that they did not say.
Developing the monarchy
Andrew Spooner,
Where specifically do you see Walker claiming that there is a public debate akin to the one you’ve outlined taking place? He doesn’t. What he does claim is that there are opinions. Glasses?
Developing the monarchy
Tom Hoy,
Patrick Jory seemingly makes a vehement case against the monarchy and then attacks people who are similarly inclined for supposedly not being not as anti-monarchy as he is. Good way to alienate support.
Are you unable to grasp a jab in jest to lighten the mood? No, apparently not. The dark clouds must surround your skull in the ditchwater of Thai studies as you wade through trivium to satisfy some petty urge for a righteousness, somewhere and somehow. What more help could I possibly give beyond saying you are strident? Perhaps I could say you are strident in a position of myopia. You have proven it here again.
Oh yes, glad you clarified your position. A position with which I have agreed consistently. Unfortunately thinking you may have been drunk seems to have been giving you too much credit.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Ron Torrence
People like you are the one that try to create conflicts in the society. The people in the area you mentioned are THAIS. No matter how you want to dig up their backgrounds. And we are all of same race. The people who lived in Lanna were Asians in appearance. And in case you don’t know we have been living in this land longer than the white people that took the land in Australia. We were quite lovable that we didn’t find idiotic reasons to genocide people who looked or talked different to us. Eventually we became one.
– When Lanna became part of Siam, the King used intelligent tactic by distributing newspapers, books for Lanna people to feel a part of Siam and to learn the language
– When you came to Australia, you killed and banned the native people from speaking their own languages.
Thailand’s silver snatched?
Maybe I am side-tracking from the topic and then again maybe not. But Andrew MacGreggor Marshall started it with his Thaksin-photo-hoisting-at-the-Olympic-medals-awarding, and Tom Hoy said that would be beautiful indeed (beauty, solemnity and the sublime all existing in the eyes of the beholder).
Has anyone watched yet the video clip of the Russian Pussy Riots recent anti-Putin performance at the Moscow Orthodox Church that earned the ‘Pussies’ a 2-year sentence for hooliganism? Their performance (at a church!) was awful, sacrilegious and (not understanding Russian) full of profanities I am guessing. But that must have been intentional from the ‘Pussies’ to make their ‘artistic’ political anti-Putin point.
My point to Marshall, Hoy and maybe the Christians among the NM readers, should the Pussies be condemned or praised? Everything about that particular Pussy Riot’s performance was un-beautiful, un-solemn and un-sublime . . . and at a church (blasphemy!). Artistic? Sir Paul McCartney seem to to think so and he is Sir Paul . . . so what do I know.
There’s a time and a place for the beautiful and the sublime. Hoisting a Thaksin photo at an Olympics medals ceremony will NOT be beautiful and will NOT be sublime. Why that would . . . er almost be ‘hooliganism’!
Mekong bridge at Chiang Khong
Thank you for pointing out the error in the calculation of rai. The figures are in baht.
Ho Chi Minh’s surprise letter
Thanks very much for this interesting piece of historical information. Ironically, even 100 years after this letter was written, the oppression of the Vietnamese people Ho condemned is still there, only that the colonial French have been replaced by a clique of Vietnamese communists.
The conundrum in western Myanmar
Chan Myae Khine’s self description on Global Voices reads: “tiny gal with HUGE dreams.” This New Mandala posting has as much relationship to reality as any dream. She was recently funded to attend a Global Voices meeting in Africa. Are voices like hers the global voices we need to hear?
The conundrum in western Myanmar
Any conflict, truth dies first and always.
Giving great opportunities for all to write with ample bias. This horrid affair of killing and burning orgy has spawn prolific examples of such writings from all quarters.
Possibly most damaging would be by the “Human Rights” workers and “academics”, indignant at these presumed docile Buddhist Burmese letting them down, coming down harsh and intentially or unintentially labelling the affair as the Burmese Buddhists vs generic Muslim.
Among such writings, this one, second Burma related post in NM since June, came in as Thein Sein promotion service perhaps parallel in the opposite side to that remarkable Sai Latt’s article in bias, misrepresentation and false opinion.
Basic facts are:
http://hlaoo1980.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/arrakan-boiling-with-anti-islamic-fever.html
28th May- 27 year old Thida Htwe, on the way home from a sewing class at nearby village was robbed of her jewellery, repeated raped and killed violently. Three people were arrested and kept at different police station to avert mob revenge. One of them reportedly hanged himself using his own clothes in custody on the 9th June. On the 18th June the other two were found guilty to rape and murder in a remarkably short court hearing and were given death sentences which in the usual practice were not carried out in Burma.
Leaflets carrying Thida Htwe’s horrific pictures urging for revenge circulated in towns in Arakan before one was put on print in a journal. On the 3rd of June ten Muslim men, eight from central Burma on a religious visit, were dragged out of a bus and killed violently by a mob. No one is yet convicted for it.
After Friday prayers on the 8th June, riot broke out in Maungdaw, a Rohingya majority town. It quickly spread to many towns including the state capital Sittwe with large Rohingya community. Curfew was put on 8th of June in these towns. State of emergency was declared by Thein Sein on the 10th June putting Arakan State under military administration.
New arson and riot with loss of three lives happened on the 8th August with curfew in three more towns.
Now there are visits from news agencies in the area. In Sittwe, Muslim quarters are literally flattened. Rohingya are in camps outside the town with armed forces in between. Buddhists are camped in town mainly at the monasteries.
Boat loads of people crossing overflowing Naaf River to Bangladesh were turned back by armed guards.
Sheikh Hasina, Bangladesh Prime Minister told Al Jazera on the 27th July “It’s Myanmar problem, not Bangladesh’s. I think you should talk to the Myanmar government, not to us on this issue. It’s not our responsibility, right?”
UN envoy VJ Nambier’s visit to the troubled area orchestrated by the military was a non- event.
Perpetual thankless task of Quintana, whose recommendation regularly gathers dust, was unceremoniously and tactlessly condemned by not only Thein Sein but by the whole of “democratic opposition”.
Aung San Suu Kyi has not put forth a single practical way forward of myriads of Burma’ problems in the whole of last year and any hope she might or can do something sensible in this delicate and intricate issue is futile.
If there were any doubt about Thein Sein’s policy, his 11th July meeting with UNHCR head settled it when he most bizarrely offered to pack off the Rohingya anywhere.
All these together with irresponsible generalization by the human rights groups (Buddhist vs Muslim all out war), and rampant evil exploitation by the extremist elements
http://www.groundreport.com/Business/The-unabated-genocide-of-Muslims-in-Burma-and-the-/2947617
paves the ground for further instability and organized opposition and harm against Burmese, in person and their interests as already seen in some parts of Asia.
Mekong bridge at Chiang Khong
One rai is 1,600 m┬▓, which equals 0.0016 km┬▓. Makes the price mentioned (presumably the figures are baht) as compensation for the land a lot less of a pittance.
The conundrum in western Myanmar
The clash between civilized and primitive, between barbarity and rationality, between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship, civilization do not clash but compete. Wafa Sultan explained everything here.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqvskXCz-kk&feature=related
Developing the monarchy
Sorry, Indo, if I have misinterpreted you.
What exactly did you mean? You’re not making it very clear. You talk about “an obscure sort-of biblical/prophetic text that stupidly nobody paid attention to” and I’m not sure what you’re talking about. So I took a wild stab in the dark as to what you meant.
Your posts are obscure but certainly have no biblical or prophetic resonance. Patrick Jory’s posts present clear arguments – maybe wrong, maybe right – but I did not notice any arguments based on the Book of Revelations.
What is the strident position I have taken up? That people should have the freedom to say what they want about changes in the constitution?
Is there a particular point in my view that you disagree with? If you could tell me what it was, that would be more helpful in any discussion than saying I’m “strident”.
At the risk of flying off my soap box in rage, I never said 112 was unconstitutional. Of course, everything in the constitution is constitutional. If the constitution specifically gave me the right to free drinks and meals for the rest of my life, that would be constitutional.
What I am saying is that the constitution allows people to argue for different constitutional provisions. Is this Ok with you or does that proposition only stem from drunkenness?
And please don’t call me “champ”.
Siam Society online
Very nice. I like it. I don’t read the Journal regularly, at least in part because of the incompleteness of the archive online. So it is good to have this resource. Maybe it will help make JSS once again more of a magnet for high quality papers on Thailand.
Mekong bridge at Chiang Khong
Mistake in the Article.
1Rai ist NOT 1,6 km2…1 Rai = 1600 m2 !!!
Developing the monarchy
Andrew Walker
If you’ve inferred from my question that I in any way, shape or form would belittle the debates privately held by farmers etc then you are wrong. I’m still trying to see how you would reach that conclusion given my comment and can only assume it is a weak attempt to diminish the point I was trying to make.
The simple point to be made is this – that an active, engaged and healthy public debate around the efficacy of the royal projects is almost non-existent and given the present shape of the LM laws nigh on impossible.
To imply that such a public debate is taking place is false.