I find these comparisons with the UK monarchy troublesome.
The Diamond Jubilee celebrations this year were largely successful because of the personal popularity of the queen and not the entire “institution” of which the British are relatively ambivalent. The UK polls when switched to Charles as king bring home very different results.
Also there is a strong republican strain in certain parts of the UK – Scotland, I think, only had a very small number of Diamond Jubilee street parties.
Last year during the Royal Wedding almost 1million Londoners left the city and the economy of the city actually shrank during that time frame.
So, when the UK queen dies there is likely to be a “hegemonic” moment when the old certainties are up for grabs. I recently read former Labour MP Chris Mullin’s diaries (he wrote A Very British Coup – about an establishment coup against a genuinely socialist UK govt) and he recounts how Prince Charles once intimated that he wished he could run to be an elected president (similar to the German or Italian one – not US or France) rather than inheriting the title.
I’m writing this from Norway – they had a vote in 1905 to decide if they wanted a monarchy or not. They voted yes but also voted for decades of left leaning govts. Democratic socialism and monarchy are not incompatible.
Indeed, thanks very much, for a readily available discussion of the situation on the Mekong an its tributaries.
As regards demand for power … there’s an excellent Proposed Power Development Plan (PDP) 2012 by Chuenchom Sangarasri Greacen and Chris Greacen that I reformatted for my personal ease in reading, you can click straight throught the originals in Thai and English.
I remember seeing and hearing Benedict Anderson referring in one of the recent youtubes on Thai politics to the “mob of Chula engineers” who run the EGAT. I’d be interested in learning more about that branch of the Thai mob, if anyone has more information.
The Bangkok Post had a (wire service!) story, a local story was posted two weeks ago at the Phnom Penh Post, about Living River Siam’s lawsuit filed against the Gang of Five : EGAT, Siam Commercial Bank (the King’s Bank), Krung Thai Bank (Thai state owned and operated), Bangkok Bank, and Kasikorn Bank who are the financial drive wheels behind Ch.Karnchang and their united attempt to kill Mae Khong.
Outfits like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are part of the West’s “defense” establishment and have weaponized human rights to be used against the “enemies” of the imperial powers. They have no interests in human rights other than as a a tool to project further their masters’ voice.
“but what exactly is the point in revealing only half the picture over and over again?”
The point may be that we have been since the beginning of the crisis in late 2005 bombarded with one sided information by the traditional medias (and to some extend still are), and that articles such as this one complete the picture with events of interest that conveniently fell through the gaps.
Instead of your consistent complaints of what others write, why don’t you present us with a well researched study that shows us the complete picture?
Thanks a lot for this excellent article.
There are far too few articles in English of what takes place in the Thai language internet world, and how the conflict is taking place there.
“Why are Thais so reluctant to criticize the phu yai? … It seems that censorship is not just about Article 112, but is the effect of deep-seated cultural code of conduct that governs Thai life and society.”
Yes, yes, yes, a move towards Microhistory! defined as “the intensive historical investigation of a well defined smaller unit of research (most often a single event, the community of a village, a family or a person)” that aspires to “ask large questions in small places” and I venture to speculate that everyone has their own remember the time I got cheated by a Phu Yai story. [e.g. In my case, the dean of management got her acolyte Phu Yais in training to lie and do a con game on me, as a result I didn’t paid a single baht for teaching 200 university students intermediate macroeconomics and economic history, writing midterms, finals, grading them plus writing, without any TA or reader, all for ***zero baht*** in pay. Standard operating procedure in this situation? Put your head down, pretend it didn’t happen and move on, because it was your personal problem, not a problem with the phu yai system, right? Don’t even get me started about the law professor and vice pres caught in child prostitution ring, arrested by police, story covered by Matichon, definitely no one person’s personal problem, definitely a situation where students, faculty and the public at large are all stakeholders who should be informed and involved, university phu yais pretended the case did not exist, there as no public discussion involving faculty or students who were treated as intellectual infants, and if the same phu yais were confronted with the stark reality today, their reaction? One common rhetorical response to criticism of events in the past is to historicise it, first palliate by concession, yes that is so unfortunate but we have dealt with the problem already, but without any proof or change in transparency, this means zilch] Conclusion: The old style raw Phu Yai “I make the truth” variety of justice, without an iota of remorse or moral qualms. Multiply by 60 million and is it any wonder why events like Ratchaprasong happen, the miracle is that there was as little bloodshed as there was.
I suspect that Walker quickly reached his conclusion that “middle-income peasants are . . . er pro-Thaksin” from anecdotal evidence (rather than compelling research findings). And because the Red Shirts recent violent rampage of bombings and arson in year 2010, Walker was compelled to adorn with a conclusion such: “pro-Thaksin middle-income peasants thoroughly ‘modern’ political goal is to bind itself to the state, and not oppose it”.
Because it just goes against the grain of common sense and developing logic that Thai “middle-income peasants” would espouse such so contrarian Thai middle-class values; specifically the Thai middle-class animosity against Thaksin’s arrogant corruption and arrogant constitutional abuses.
‘Middle-income Esan people’ is perhaps what Walker meant. Thaksin’s Esan following is legendary . . . and I suspect Esan peasants whose income had reached ‘middle-income’ would still be enchanted by the Thaksin charisma and Thaksin’s ‘I am Esan too’ propaganda as to be willingly be deceived.
Oh boy, there are so many issues with this lengthy post by “Anonymous” it is hard to know where to begin. Fundamentally this seems to be a royalist dream of back to the future. But there are multiple elephants in the room whilst reading this article.
1. If “the institution and development have a symbiotic relationship”, what about the symbiotic relationship between the institution and military which has guided the last 60 years of Thailand’s development and only within which the monarchy’s development initiatives can be understood.
2. “Anonymous” states “The royal development work has expedited national development although its impact has not often been measured” and also “Critical thinking and genuine assessment are sorely lacking”.
Why is it that these topics not measured and assessed objectively? Is it the same reason that you are Anonymous? Am I right now committing a crime under 112??
3. Anonymous switches seamlessly between references to “the monarchy”, “the institution” and “the king”. But he ignores the rather obvious fact that King Bhumipol’s reign is drawing to a close. Long Live The King, Vajiralongkorn !
In his first 60 years Vajiralongkorn has shown no noticeable interest in development projects. So what hope for Anonymous’ proposal “To establish itself as a driving force of national development is what the institution needs to strive for”.
King Bhumipol did indeed win the hearts and minds of Thais and his development work will be remembered. But that “relentless trust” will not be transferred to his heir. If Thailand is to grow and progress through the 21st century it would be far better advised to concentrate on developing democratic government and the basic rule of law rather than waiting on top-down royalist development efforts.
What is Chittagonians? It sure is not an ethic group or religious group since many different racial, ethnic and religious group live in Chittagong.
Seeing events racial and religious lens is your big problem. Until you see humans as humans, not as Burmese or Rakhines (be they Chakma Mogh), Rohingyas, or Bengalis, you will live your days full of misery knowing that your grandchildrem will still be fighting and live the same life you would live. Sad, isn’t it?
The stereotype is the yellows are well educated folk, while the reds are dumb buffalo. Ok, fine.
But whenever I read online forums and other political postings across youtube, twitter, and facebook, I find that the reds write much more eloquently and maturely, while the yellows go on hate rants filled with very *vulgar* language. The posts by the “doctor” are perfect examples . . . the english translation here make him sound much nicer than he really is.
Anyway, Mr Tul has responded to this in a recent post, “р╕кр╕бр╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕Фр╕┤р╣М р╣Ар╕Ир╕╡р╕вр╕б” р╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣Мр╕бр╕Ш. р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕лр╣Ир╕зр╕Зр╕лр╕бр╕нр╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕вр╣М р╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕Бр╕кр╕╡ р╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╣Вр╕Юр╕кр╕Хр╣Мр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Гр╕лр╣Й .358 р╣Бр╕Чр╕Щ “112”
р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕зр╣Вр╕Фр╕Щ .358 р╕Ир╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕нр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕ер╕Зр╕бр╕Хр╕┤р╕Кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕зр╣Ир╕░ 5555
Which roughly translates as the title of the Matichon article, followed by his comment, “It* is so afraid of [being shot by] a .358 that this must be f’ing put in Matichon, too. lol”
FYI – Thaksin isn’t the only politician that offered or is offering populist policies. Abhisit spent billions on populist policies during his administration trying to imitate Thaksins success, and all political parties promised trillions of ‘free money’ during the 2011 election.
The fact that Thaksin easily won, despite the other parties promising just as much or more, shows (proves?) that it’s more than just populist policies here at play here.
(but I didn’t read the book, so perhaps that is already accounted for)
I disagree with some of the basic premises of this article – in particular the question of whether the monarchy has helped or hindered national development – but it’s welcome to see such a well-argued and sensible article from a pro-monarchist standpoint. The debate has been largely hijacked by bigoted extremists on the royalist side, and it’s really useful to hear from more reasonable voices. Thanks.
I am a Myanmar. And we faced with that so stupid violence. But we care about our trend cause we are now just starting to Democracy. Our nation is escaped under control of Military Government and just start to transform. As I have an emotion of sympathy, I know about the feeling of both sides. So do not want to stupid again that i want to tell to everybody. Cause these are no Buddhism and Muslim. These are human beings. Care each others and pay respect also. Peace is good for everybody. Otherwise . . . . .
Can Jonfernquest (2) provide us with actual evidence that Elizabeth Fitzgerald “is revealing only half the picture”? No, because he would be sent to prison for revealing any. The other half of the picture has been crushed almost out of existence by the absolutists. Only Dr. Tul’s half is permitted.
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Developing the monarchy
I find these comparisons with the UK monarchy troublesome.
The Diamond Jubilee celebrations this year were largely successful because of the personal popularity of the queen and not the entire “institution” of which the British are relatively ambivalent. The UK polls when switched to Charles as king bring home very different results.
Also there is a strong republican strain in certain parts of the UK – Scotland, I think, only had a very small number of Diamond Jubilee street parties.
Last year during the Royal Wedding almost 1million Londoners left the city and the economy of the city actually shrank during that time frame.
So, when the UK queen dies there is likely to be a “hegemonic” moment when the old certainties are up for grabs. I recently read former Labour MP Chris Mullin’s diaries (he wrote A Very British Coup – about an establishment coup against a genuinely socialist UK govt) and he recounts how Prince Charles once intimated that he wished he could run to be an elected president (similar to the German or Italian one – not US or France) rather than inheriting the title.
I’m writing this from Norway – they had a vote in 1905 to decide if they wanted a monarchy or not. They voted yes but also voted for decades of left leaning govts. Democratic socialism and monarchy are not incompatible.
Thailand’s Mekong water grab
Indeed, thanks very much, for a readily available discussion of the situation on the Mekong an its tributaries.
As regards demand for power … there’s an excellent Proposed Power Development Plan (PDP) 2012 by Chuenchom Sangarasri Greacen and Chris Greacen that I reformatted for my personal ease in reading, you can click straight throught the originals in Thai and English.
I remember seeing and hearing Benedict Anderson referring in one of the recent youtubes on Thai politics to the “mob of Chula engineers” who run the EGAT. I’d be interested in learning more about that branch of the Thai mob, if anyone has more information.
The Bangkok Post had a (wire service!) story, a local story was posted two weeks ago at the Phnom Penh Post, about Living River Siam’s lawsuit filed against the Gang of Five : EGAT, Siam Commercial Bank (the King’s Bank), Krung Thai Bank (Thai state owned and operated), Bangkok Bank, and Kasikorn Bank who are the financial drive wheels behind Ch.Karnchang and their united attempt to kill Mae Khong.
Thanks to Teerapong Pomun and Living River Siam
Thanks again for the link.
Political prisoners, Amnesty and Google
Outfits like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are part of the West’s “defense” establishment and have weaponized human rights to be used against the “enemies” of the imperial powers. They have no interests in human rights other than as a a tool to project further their masters’ voice.
Threatening violence and the end of logic
“jonfernquest”:
“but what exactly is the point in revealing only half the picture over and over again?”
The point may be that we have been since the beginning of the crisis in late 2005 bombarded with one sided information by the traditional medias (and to some extend still are), and that articles such as this one complete the picture with events of interest that conveniently fell through the gaps.
Instead of your consistent complaints of what others write, why don’t you present us with a well researched study that shows us the complete picture?
Threatening violence and the end of logic
Thanks a lot for this excellent article.
There are far too few articles in English of what takes place in the Thai language internet world, and how the conflict is taking place there.
Thai Studies in the Shadow of (Self) Censorship
“Why are Thais so reluctant to criticize the phu yai? … It seems that censorship is not just about Article 112, but is the effect of deep-seated cultural code of conduct that governs Thai life and society.”
Yes, yes, yes, a move towards Microhistory! defined as “the intensive historical investigation of a well defined smaller unit of research (most often a single event, the community of a village, a family or a person)” that aspires to “ask large questions in small places” and I venture to speculate that everyone has their own remember the time I got cheated by a Phu Yai story. [e.g. In my case, the dean of management got her acolyte Phu Yais in training to lie and do a con game on me, as a result I didn’t paid a single baht for teaching 200 university students intermediate macroeconomics and economic history, writing midterms, finals, grading them plus writing, without any TA or reader, all for ***zero baht*** in pay. Standard operating procedure in this situation? Put your head down, pretend it didn’t happen and move on, because it was your personal problem, not a problem with the phu yai system, right? Don’t even get me started about the law professor and vice pres caught in child prostitution ring, arrested by police, story covered by Matichon, definitely no one person’s personal problem, definitely a situation where students, faculty and the public at large are all stakeholders who should be informed and involved, university phu yais pretended the case did not exist, there as no public discussion involving faculty or students who were treated as intellectual infants, and if the same phu yais were confronted with the stark reality today, their reaction? One common rhetorical response to criticism of events in the past is to historicise it, first palliate by concession, yes that is so unfortunate but we have dealt with the problem already, but without any proof or change in transparency, this means zilch] Conclusion: The old style raw Phu Yai “I make the truth” variety of justice, without an iota of remorse or moral qualms. Multiply by 60 million and is it any wonder why events like Ratchaprasong happen, the miracle is that there was as little bloodshed as there was.
Thailand’s Political Peasants
I suspect that Walker quickly reached his conclusion that “middle-income peasants are . . . er pro-Thaksin” from anecdotal evidence (rather than compelling research findings). And because the Red Shirts recent violent rampage of bombings and arson in year 2010, Walker was compelled to adorn with a conclusion such: “pro-Thaksin middle-income peasants thoroughly ‘modern’ political goal is to bind itself to the state, and not oppose it”.
Because it just goes against the grain of common sense and developing logic that Thai “middle-income peasants” would espouse such so contrarian Thai middle-class values; specifically the Thai middle-class animosity against Thaksin’s arrogant corruption and arrogant constitutional abuses.
‘Middle-income Esan people’ is perhaps what Walker meant. Thaksin’s Esan following is legendary . . . and I suspect Esan peasants whose income had reached ‘middle-income’ would still be enchanted by the Thaksin charisma and Thaksin’s ‘I am Esan too’ propaganda as to be willingly be deceived.
Threatening violence and the end of logic
[…] Fitzgerald at New Mandala has translated the threat made last week by multi-colored shirt leader Dr. Tul towards Professor Somsak […]
Developing the monarchy
Oh boy, there are so many issues with this lengthy post by “Anonymous” it is hard to know where to begin. Fundamentally this seems to be a royalist dream of back to the future. But there are multiple elephants in the room whilst reading this article.
1. If “the institution and development have a symbiotic relationship”, what about the symbiotic relationship between the institution and military which has guided the last 60 years of Thailand’s development and only within which the monarchy’s development initiatives can be understood.
2. “Anonymous” states “The royal development work has expedited national development although its impact has not often been measured” and also “Critical thinking and genuine assessment are sorely lacking”.
Why is it that these topics not measured and assessed objectively? Is it the same reason that you are Anonymous? Am I right now committing a crime under 112??
3. Anonymous switches seamlessly between references to “the monarchy”, “the institution” and “the king”. But he ignores the rather obvious fact that King Bhumipol’s reign is drawing to a close. Long Live The King, Vajiralongkorn !
In his first 60 years Vajiralongkorn has shown no noticeable interest in development projects. So what hope for Anonymous’ proposal “To establish itself as a driving force of national development is what the institution needs to strive for”.
King Bhumipol did indeed win the hearts and minds of Thais and his development work will be remembered. But that “relentless trust” will not be transferred to his heir. If Thailand is to grow and progress through the 21st century it would be far better advised to concentrate on developing democratic government and the basic rule of law rather than waiting on top-down royalist development efforts.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
To 59,
What is Chittagonians? It sure is not an ethic group or religious group since many different racial, ethnic and religious group live in Chittagong.
Seeing events racial and religious lens is your big problem. Until you see humans as humans, not as Burmese or Rakhines (be they Chakma Mogh), Rohingyas, or Bengalis, you will live your days full of misery knowing that your grandchildrem will still be fighting and live the same life you would live. Sad, isn’t it?
Threatening violence and the end of logic
The stereotype is the yellows are well educated folk, while the reds are dumb buffalo. Ok, fine.
But whenever I read online forums and other political postings across youtube, twitter, and facebook, I find that the reds write much more eloquently and maturely, while the yellows go on hate rants filled with very *vulgar* language. The posts by the “doctor” are perfect examples . . . the english translation here make him sound much nicer than he really is.
Anyway, Mr Tul has responded to this in a recent post,
“р╕кр╕бр╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕Фр╕┤р╣М р╣Ар╕Ир╕╡р╕вр╕б” р╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣Мр╕бр╕Ш. р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕лр╣Ир╕зр╕Зр╕лр╕бр╕нр╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕вр╣М р╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕Бр╕кр╕╡ р╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╣Вр╕Юр╕кр╕Хр╣Мр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Гр╕лр╣Й .358 р╣Бр╕Чр╕Щ “112”
р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕зр╣Вр╕Фр╕Щ .358 р╕Ир╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕нр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕ер╕Зр╕бр╕Хр╕┤р╕Кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕зр╣Ир╕░ 5555
Which roughly translates as the title of the Matichon article, followed by his comment, “It* is so afraid of [being shot by] a .358 that this must be f’ing put in Matichon, too. lol”
Thailand’s Political Peasants
FYI – Thaksin isn’t the only politician that offered or is offering populist policies. Abhisit spent billions on populist policies during his administration trying to imitate Thaksins success, and all political parties promised trillions of ‘free money’ during the 2011 election.
The fact that Thaksin easily won, despite the other parties promising just as much or more, shows (proves?) that it’s more than just populist policies here at play here.
(but I didn’t read the book, so perhaps that is already accounted for)
Developing the monarchy
I disagree with some of the basic premises of this article – in particular the question of whether the monarchy has helped or hindered national development – but it’s welcome to see such a well-argued and sensible article from a pro-monarchist standpoint. The debate has been largely hijacked by bigoted extremists on the royalist side, and it’s really useful to hear from more reasonable voices. Thanks.
Developing the monarchy
and a large part of this problem is that I am unable to comment on this, unless in the negative
┼╜i┼╛ek and social change in Malaysia – Part 2
[…] and social change in Malaysia Part1, Part2 | February 12th 2012, February 26th […]
┼╜i┼╛ek and social change in Malaysia – Part 1
[…] and social change in Malaysia Part1, Part2 | February 12th 2012, February 26th […]
Political prisoners, Amnesty and Google
How can we have an organisation without conscience “voicing concern” for prisoners of conscience?
Thailand’s Mekong water grab
Thanks for highlighting this.
Intolerance, Islam and the Internet in Burma
I am a Myanmar. And we faced with that so stupid violence. But we care about our trend cause we are now just starting to Democracy. Our nation is escaped under control of Military Government and just start to transform. As I have an emotion of sympathy, I know about the feeling of both sides. So do not want to stupid again that i want to tell to everybody. Cause these are no Buddhism and Muslim. These are human beings. Care each others and pay respect also. Peace is good for everybody. Otherwise . . . . .
Threatening violence and the end of logic
Can Jonfernquest (2) provide us with actual evidence that Elizabeth Fitzgerald “is revealing only half the picture”? No, because he would be sent to prison for revealing any. The other half of the picture has been crushed almost out of existence by the absolutists. Only Dr. Tul’s half is permitted.