Since the author is “a Burmese poet and a literary translator” let me ask a dumb question:
What are the rules of using Burma instead of Myanmar?
You used Burmese in one sentence “There are 7 cars for every 1,000 Burmese citizens …” at the beginning of your article and then later you used “… have been enjoyed by Myanmar citizens”. That’s inconsistent. I use Burma when I am writing in English and not “Myanmar (more correctly Mranma)” because it is very confusing making adjectives etc. (is it Mynamr Airaways or Myanma Airways, things like that). To be consistent with English grammar “Burmese” should be called “Myanmarese” but Burmese(sic) people don’t seem to like that.
By the way, no one is forced to say Deutschland for Germany, Köln for Cologne, ├Цsterreich for Australia, Wien for Vienna, Hellas for Greece, Espagna for Spain, Suomi for Finland, Zhong Guo for China etc. , in English. This obsession about forcing foreigners to use “Myanmar, Yangon, etc.” is based on some kind of colonial inferiority complex. It’s not even about political correctness. Besides, do Burmese care how the San Bushmen call Burma?
Just a few weeks back, Thaksin was happy to tell the Red Shirts to shut up and forget their grievances about long-standing injustices (that they bled and died for), in the name of allowing him to return to Thailand and regain his money.
Now, not even a month later, his attempt at a detente with Amart has failed and he’s calling on them to rise and protect him again. I hope one day we’ll see a genuine popular movement against pervasive injustice, without Thaksin.
“Each of us sacrificed blood expecting that we would have reconciliation in Thailand,”
Is ‘reconciliation’ (read ‘impunity’) what they were sacrificing blood for? ‘Reconciliation’ is the new buzz word…. And history is now rewritten retrospectively it would seem……..
…. Poor old foreign media…. If they’re not getting kicked in the grollies by apologists for Thaksin and Amsterdam, they’re getting ‘monitored’ and menaced by the sinister, yellow bellied hate-mongers….
If they piss off both parties then they are probably getting it about right……..
Personally, I’d bet it’s all a PR stunt from RA/Thaksin. Prestigious law firms work for money and if they have a cleint with deep pockets instructing them to exhaust every avenue possible, then they will do so.
I guess the only problem with it being a cynical PR stunt, if that is indeed what it is, is that it would be despicable to build the hopes of victims and the families of victims that something meaningful (apart from a loss of face for Abhisit/Dems) was likely to come of the whole process.
If, on the other hand, the ICC does take up the case and independently investigate the crackdowns and establish (what exactly is the alleged offence?) the facts according to international standards, then everyone will a) accept that Abhisit has been found guilty in a case which may set a legal precedent for other foreign rulers/state agents with British citizenship, or b) accept that he has not been found guilty and say no more about it.
If the ICC petition is being used for its proper purpose and shows that while “Thailand can’t fix it’s own history of impunity” the ICC can, the only downside (one could say a fairly major one at that) is that other parties won’t be held to account in the same way.
Thailand’s “history of impunity” will work quite well for, say, military top brass who may have their noses rubbed in it, but are beyond the jurisdiction of the ICC due to their status as Thais.
The same thing goes for those such as Thaskin, as I don’t think ICC jurisdiction also covers Montenegro, so any such ICC investigation won’t fully address the issue of the black shirts; substantiate whether Thaksin was bankrolling the demonstrations and instructing on strategy (directly or indirectly) and the use of violence by the anti-government side; or whether the view of some analysts that there was a strategy from elements within the anti-government side to push the protester body count up to 500+ in order to force a coup, ending the Democrat administration, further discredit the country while bolstering Thaksin’s claim that he was the victim of a coup-happy paternalistic state.
Wouldn’t you agree with that Andrew, that it would be positive if Abhisit was to be found guilty, fairly and under international standards, but a crying shame that the likes of Thaksin and elements of the army would continue to evade justice, with the whole process proving that Thailand’s “history of impunity” continues to work wuite well for those who do not have British passports?
OWWB, #11: Note I was talking about churches, not temples – absorbed as i was with my thesis that in the home village of every historical Indochinese thug/despot/odiousfigure, you always find a Catholic church. The last straw came last October when I took a left down the river bank just before entering Kampong Thom. I was on a quest to find Saloth Sar’s house but just 60 seconds down that path wouldn’t you know … Catholics!
Yeah it’s weird how sometimes HRW and US govt lines are identical. In Thailand it is uncanny.
I was always struck by the huge amount of coverage HRW gave to the dodgy claims of Gadaffi’s use of cluster munitions while they were completely silent when US allies, Thailand fired them at Cambodia last year.
“but I also author a FP book on Cambodia”….”the coup, his abuse of power and some of the other detail you mention above.”
No need to send me your FP book on cambodia… I author enough of these bloody things myself thanks.
There was no coup though really was there?…. And this is an area where Adams gets it wrong, saying that Hun Sen made moves against FUNCINPEC because of fears of losing the up coming election. It was actually more about defections from the final units of Anlong Veng Khmer Rouge and Rannariddh’s overtures to them……
“I once interviewed one of his former lower-ranking officers who was with Hun Sen/Vietnamese when they invaded.”
Whats his name?….. I might know him.
“I am also in the process of reading the former UK Labour Party MP, Chris Mullin’s diaries.”
Never met him or read his diaries…. Although I have met plenty of Khmer Rouge, both those with pens and those without……
“Relations with the Khmer Rouge and the Thais were close”
Indeed they were…. The Thais were the cypher once the coalition was in place and they tightly controlled access to Anlong Veng right until the end.
“In my view Brad Adams’ line is clearly just a parroting of US foreign policy in the region.”
Or they happen to coincide…..
“Has Adams ever called for US govt and military people to be fully investigated for their criminal bombing of Cambodia?”
Is that a part of his job remit?
“In my view we can’t single one villain out whilst ignoring the context and other, equally brutal, perpetrators.”
There are many villains in Cambodia and few in politics are not villains… The ones who are not, like Om Radsady perhaps, may just end up getting shot down in cold blood…..
Which brings us back to huma rights in Cambodia…. And the recent killing of Chut Wutty….. And exactly who runs Cambodia in a traditionally brutal style….. Something that no human rights group can or should ignore….
When one looks at Phnom Penh pre 1970 (I wasn’t there on account of being too young. My Dad was there quiet often though), it was largely a Vietnamese and Chinese town. As you already know of course, the separation between urban and rural (especially allegiances in the rice belt) is what shifted things so quickly circa 1972/1973, the Lon Nol coup having upset the precarious balance Sihanouk had achieved in the quid pro quo of restraining the indigenous Khmer opposition as a price to pay for North Vietnamese presence…..
But having recognised that urban/rural divide I would still not see Nuon Chea, Pol Pot or Ieng Thirith as lacking in ‘Khmerness’ whatever the ethnic make up of their antecedents ….. And certainly not Mok. Khmer Chinese (those not murdered already) are still quite a distinct group in Phnom Penh….. Khieu Samphan is also of ethnic Chinese blood, but the Khmer Rouge felt themselves to be Khmer and it was the vitriolic paranoid protection of the Khmer nationality that was, in their own twisted view, their motivation.
Many of my close Khmer frineds are of partly Chinese extraction ….. But in no way feel themselves to be anything less than 100% Khmer and few would actually class themselves as Chinese Khmer who are seen as being a distinct group within Khmer society.
Anyway, you have opened up a very interesting line of thought here….
The ruling establishment in Thailand is even more identifiably of Chinese character….. Sonthi Lim, Thaksin and Abhisit only barely count as Thai in many ways and Chinese allegiances to original roots run strong…… And yes…. It is part of ‘him’ too….. In many ways those of Chinese ethnicity run both sets of the presently warring elites in Thailand….. The established ruling elite and the newly mercantile elite….. Sonthi is, of course, part of the latter gunning for the former because someone else has bigger toys in his pram.
Is the ICC thing purely a PR exercise? No. Does it have PR mileage? Sure.
What I do know is that the court would’ve dismissed it out of hand if it had have been purely PR and I am sure very highly respected lawyers like Knoops wouldn’t have touched it with a barge pole if it was just “PR”.
But yeah both sides have been engaged in a huge PR play.
Yes there is precedent – will try to dig it out a later point (am on train) – think it was Guatemala. Do remember recent case where someone was found guilty for recruiting child soldiers and not “killing”.
I hope the ICC does accept the case. The recent shenanigans from Dems/PAD and const court only strentgthens case that Thailand can’t fix it’s own history of impunity at the moment. Any investigation by ICC would likely get beneath surface of issues like the “Men in Black” in a way that hasn’t been done yet.
Not exactly a dream equipment: i just upgraded my dead EOS 500D to a 600D. I use a Sigma 18 – 50 / 2.8 . But it’s affordable and does the job. Better cameras and lenses are just too expensive.
The Sigma is not bad, but the higher resolution the chips are, the more visible are also the faults in the less costly lenses, meaning that slight sharpness problems at the borders especially at open F- stops become more pronounced as well.
For some other projects i work on i still use film, both 135 and 120. One of my favorite cameras is an old folder camera from the 1950’s – a Balda Super Baldax. During the floods, for example, i used my digital camera without battery pack for images i sent to my agency, and a small Contax T3 and my Balda for my more personal work.
For street work i prefer a small equipment, just the necessary stuff, and no more. I hate lugging around tons of equipment.
#8 Willem
“There is very little in Cambodia that could be accurately described as being static,
Apart from the fact that Hun Sen remains Premier perhaps.
“It’s not simply a hellhole of human rights abuses–though for some Cambodians it is.”
Yes.
#9 Jon Wright
“I visualize dramatic pics of bomb-struck churches in Nam Dinh, Nghe An, Ha Tinh (have to be quick as they’re all getting renovated) as well as Kampuchea Krom and Kampong Cham, Kampong Thom and Battambang … and whatever can be found in Laos”
They were renovating them back in the very early 90s in VN…. Not sure about the state of play now. In Cambodia there have also been many renovations…. Although up until recently the ancient Angkorian temples were still being looted and my well still be….. Which is why some of the best preserved and most beautiful ones are in Thailand…. Pimai particularly, which is a gem.
“Pol Pot, Nuon Chea, Ta Mok, Duch, Bun Rany, Yun Yat, You Yuon all Chinese. Ieng Sary, Son Sen Being Viet/Chinese.”
This is interesting…. Especially Mok…..Although whatever his lineage in Takeo, he was no city intellectual…..He was a down and dirty fighter/killer. Ieng Sary was of partly Chinese ancestry but it is his background as Kampuchea Krom that really defines him…. And of course back in the days in Paris when him and his radical buddies were hanging around the Rue de Théatre and the Place du Commerce he was very much the leader of the Circle Marxiste, whilst Saloth Sar, was pretty much a nobody. I wonder how much extra clout his Kampuchea Krom background gave him when the movement was emerging. …. At the time Khmer leftists were very much in the shadow of the Vietnamese as part of a wider Indochina movement…. Not that this made him any less anti ‘yuon’ (I hate that word) when the time came.
Andrew, do you actually have any faith that the ICC will consider a case against Abhisit?
Is there any precedent for this, considering they usually deal with war crimes and crimes against humanity?
Isn’t the whole thing just counter-PR from Amsterdam to embarrass Abhisit and make it look like Thaksin/RA is actually trying to do something to hold people to account (at least on the army/govt side) for the May 19, 2010 crackdown?
That seemed to be the tone and thrust of Robert Amsterdam’s speech to the red shirts on May 19, 2012, when he said such an ICC conviction/case “may never happen… but we are trying”. [not a verbatim quote
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Getting real about Myanmar’s development
Since the author is “a Burmese poet and a literary translator” let me ask a dumb question:
What are the rules of using Burma instead of Myanmar?
You used Burmese in one sentence “There are 7 cars for every 1,000 Burmese citizens …” at the beginning of your article and then later you used “… have been enjoyed by Myanmar citizens”. That’s inconsistent. I use Burma when I am writing in English and not “Myanmar (more correctly Mranma)” because it is very confusing making adjectives etc. (is it Mynamr Airaways or Myanma Airways, things like that). To be consistent with English grammar “Burmese” should be called “Myanmarese” but Burmese(sic) people don’t seem to like that.
By the way, no one is forced to say Deutschland for Germany, Köln for Cologne, ├Цsterreich for Australia, Wien for Vienna, Hellas for Greece, Espagna for Spain, Suomi for Finland, Zhong Guo for China etc. , in English. This obsession about forcing foreigners to use “Myanmar, Yangon, etc.” is based on some kind of colonial inferiority complex. It’s not even about political correctness. Besides, do Burmese care how the San Bushmen call Burma?
Thaksin, reform and political crisis
Just a few weeks back, Thaksin was happy to tell the Red Shirts to shut up and forget their grievances about long-standing injustices (that they bled and died for), in the name of allowing him to return to Thailand and regain his money.
Now, not even a month later, his attempt at a detente with Amart has failed and he’s calling on them to rise and protect him again. I hope one day we’ll see a genuine popular movement against pervasive injustice, without Thaksin.
Thaksin, reform and political crisis
“Each of us sacrificed blood expecting that we would have reconciliation in Thailand,”
Is ‘reconciliation’ (read ‘impunity’) what they were sacrificing blood for? ‘Reconciliation’ is the new buzz word…. And history is now rewritten retrospectively it would seem……..
Chai-anan’s sufficiency democracy
Here is a recent column by a retired development technocrat on the “universal validity of the sufficiency economy concept”:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/296751/the-universal-truth-of-sufficiency-economy
Thaksin, reform and political crisis
What comes after the “final confrontation” ? The break-up of Thailand, I guess.
The end, the beginning
…. Poor old foreign media…. If they’re not getting kicked in the grollies by apologists for Thaksin and Amsterdam, they’re getting ‘monitored’ and menaced by the sinister, yellow bellied hate-mongers….
If they piss off both parties then they are probably getting it about right……..
Reconciliation games
Andrew
Personally, I’d bet it’s all a PR stunt from RA/Thaksin. Prestigious law firms work for money and if they have a cleint with deep pockets instructing them to exhaust every avenue possible, then they will do so.
I guess the only problem with it being a cynical PR stunt, if that is indeed what it is, is that it would be despicable to build the hopes of victims and the families of victims that something meaningful (apart from a loss of face for Abhisit/Dems) was likely to come of the whole process.
If, on the other hand, the ICC does take up the case and independently investigate the crackdowns and establish (what exactly is the alleged offence?) the facts according to international standards, then everyone will a) accept that Abhisit has been found guilty in a case which may set a legal precedent for other foreign rulers/state agents with British citizenship, or b) accept that he has not been found guilty and say no more about it.
If the ICC petition is being used for its proper purpose and shows that while “Thailand can’t fix it’s own history of impunity” the ICC can, the only downside (one could say a fairly major one at that) is that other parties won’t be held to account in the same way.
Thailand’s “history of impunity” will work quite well for, say, military top brass who may have their noses rubbed in it, but are beyond the jurisdiction of the ICC due to their status as Thais.
The same thing goes for those such as Thaskin, as I don’t think ICC jurisdiction also covers Montenegro, so any such ICC investigation won’t fully address the issue of the black shirts; substantiate whether Thaksin was bankrolling the demonstrations and instructing on strategy (directly or indirectly) and the use of violence by the anti-government side; or whether the view of some analysts that there was a strategy from elements within the anti-government side to push the protester body count up to 500+ in order to force a coup, ending the Democrat administration, further discredit the country while bolstering Thaksin’s claim that he was the victim of a coup-happy paternalistic state.
Wouldn’t you agree with that Andrew, that it would be positive if Abhisit was to be found guilty, fairly and under international standards, but a crying shame that the likes of Thaksin and elements of the army would continue to evade justice, with the whole process proving that Thailand’s “history of impunity” continues to work wuite well for those who do not have British passports?
Surprise? A CPP victory
OWWB, #11: Note I was talking about churches, not temples – absorbed as i was with my thesis that in the home village of every historical Indochinese thug/despot/odiousfigure, you always find a Catholic church. The last straw came last October when I took a left down the river bank just before entering Kampong Thom. I was on a quest to find Saloth Sar’s house but just 60 seconds down that path wouldn’t you know … Catholics!
Surprise? A CPP victory
Dan
Ralph is someone else.
Yeah it’s weird how sometimes HRW and US govt lines are identical. In Thailand it is uncanny.
I was always struck by the huge amount of coverage HRW gave to the dodgy claims of Gadaffi’s use of cluster munitions while they were completely silent when US allies, Thailand fired them at Cambodia last year.
The end, the beginning
“Andrew Spooner”:
“Will this now extend to the foreign media… ?”
Yes, it will.
Surprise? A CPP victory
# 10
Ralph
“but I also author a FP book on Cambodia”….”the coup, his abuse of power and some of the other detail you mention above.”
No need to send me your FP book on cambodia… I author enough of these bloody things myself thanks.
There was no coup though really was there?…. And this is an area where Adams gets it wrong, saying that Hun Sen made moves against FUNCINPEC because of fears of losing the up coming election. It was actually more about defections from the final units of Anlong Veng Khmer Rouge and Rannariddh’s overtures to them……
“I once interviewed one of his former lower-ranking officers who was with Hun Sen/Vietnamese when they invaded.”
Whats his name?….. I might know him.
“I am also in the process of reading the former UK Labour Party MP, Chris Mullin’s diaries.”
Never met him or read his diaries…. Although I have met plenty of Khmer Rouge, both those with pens and those without……
“Relations with the Khmer Rouge and the Thais were close”
Indeed they were…. The Thais were the cypher once the coalition was in place and they tightly controlled access to Anlong Veng right until the end.
“In my view Brad Adams’ line is clearly just a parroting of US foreign policy in the region.”
Or they happen to coincide…..
“Has Adams ever called for US govt and military people to be fully investigated for their criminal bombing of Cambodia?”
Is that a part of his job remit?
“In my view we can’t single one villain out whilst ignoring the context and other, equally brutal, perpetrators.”
There are many villains in Cambodia and few in politics are not villains… The ones who are not, like Om Radsady perhaps, may just end up getting shot down in cold blood…..
Which brings us back to huma rights in Cambodia…. And the recent killing of Chut Wutty….. And exactly who runs Cambodia in a traditionally brutal style….. Something that no human rights group can or should ignore….
Surprise? A CPP victory
#13 Jon
When one looks at Phnom Penh pre 1970 (I wasn’t there on account of being too young. My Dad was there quiet often though), it was largely a Vietnamese and Chinese town. As you already know of course, the separation between urban and rural (especially allegiances in the rice belt) is what shifted things so quickly circa 1972/1973, the Lon Nol coup having upset the precarious balance Sihanouk had achieved in the quid pro quo of restraining the indigenous Khmer opposition as a price to pay for North Vietnamese presence…..
But having recognised that urban/rural divide I would still not see Nuon Chea, Pol Pot or Ieng Thirith as lacking in ‘Khmerness’ whatever the ethnic make up of their antecedents ….. And certainly not Mok. Khmer Chinese (those not murdered already) are still quite a distinct group in Phnom Penh….. Khieu Samphan is also of ethnic Chinese blood, but the Khmer Rouge felt themselves to be Khmer and it was the vitriolic paranoid protection of the Khmer nationality that was, in their own twisted view, their motivation.
Many of my close Khmer frineds are of partly Chinese extraction ….. But in no way feel themselves to be anything less than 100% Khmer and few would actually class themselves as Chinese Khmer who are seen as being a distinct group within Khmer society.
Anyway, you have opened up a very interesting line of thought here….
The ruling establishment in Thailand is even more identifiably of Chinese character….. Sonthi Lim, Thaksin and Abhisit only barely count as Thai in many ways and Chinese allegiances to original roots run strong…… And yes…. It is part of ‘him’ too….. In many ways those of Chinese ethnicity run both sets of the presently warring elites in Thailand….. The established ruling elite and the newly mercantile elite….. Sonthi is, of course, part of the latter gunning for the former because someone else has bigger toys in his pram.
Reconciliation games
Greg
Is the ICC thing purely a PR exercise? No. Does it have PR mileage? Sure.
What I do know is that the court would’ve dismissed it out of hand if it had have been purely PR and I am sure very highly respected lawyers like Knoops wouldn’t have touched it with a barge pole if it was just “PR”.
But yeah both sides have been engaged in a huge PR play.
Yes there is precedent – will try to dig it out a later point (am on train) – think it was Guatemala. Do remember recent case where someone was found guilty for recruiting child soldiers and not “killing”.
I hope the ICC does accept the case. The recent shenanigans from Dems/PAD and const court only strentgthens case that Thailand can’t fix it’s own history of impunity at the moment. Any investigation by ICC would likely get beneath surface of issues like the “Men in Black” in a way that hasn’t been done yet.
Reconciliation games
If the third reading of the ammendment act must be within 15 days constitutionally, then there is pressure on this to be resolved quickly.
I am not sure when the 15th day is.
Reconciliation games
Marteau: “By the way, may I ask what type of camera and lenses you normally use for your street work?”
Check this out:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/fxif/
Surprise? A CPP victory
… oh I forgot to mention ‘him’ as well.
Surprise? A CPP victory
OWWB: “to clam Saloth Sar, Nuon Chea or Ineg Sary are more foreign than Khmer is thin ice”
I suppose so. But look at Thaksin and Abhisit – Chinese/Vietnamese – and the trouble they’ve wreaked next door, and it gets interesting I think.
Reconciliation games
“Marteau”:
Not exactly a dream equipment: i just upgraded my dead EOS 500D to a 600D. I use a Sigma 18 – 50 / 2.8 . But it’s affordable and does the job. Better cameras and lenses are just too expensive.
The Sigma is not bad, but the higher resolution the chips are, the more visible are also the faults in the less costly lenses, meaning that slight sharpness problems at the borders especially at open F- stops become more pronounced as well.
For some other projects i work on i still use film, both 135 and 120. One of my favorite cameras is an old folder camera from the 1950’s – a Balda Super Baldax. During the floods, for example, i used my digital camera without battery pack for images i sent to my agency, and a small Contax T3 and my Balda for my more personal work.
For street work i prefer a small equipment, just the necessary stuff, and no more. I hate lugging around tons of equipment.
Surprise? A CPP victory
#8 Willem
“There is very little in Cambodia that could be accurately described as being static,
Apart from the fact that Hun Sen remains Premier perhaps.
“It’s not simply a hellhole of human rights abuses–though for some Cambodians it is.”
Yes.
#9 Jon Wright
“I visualize dramatic pics of bomb-struck churches in Nam Dinh, Nghe An, Ha Tinh (have to be quick as they’re all getting renovated) as well as Kampuchea Krom and Kampong Cham, Kampong Thom and Battambang … and whatever can be found in Laos”
They were renovating them back in the very early 90s in VN…. Not sure about the state of play now. In Cambodia there have also been many renovations…. Although up until recently the ancient Angkorian temples were still being looted and my well still be….. Which is why some of the best preserved and most beautiful ones are in Thailand…. Pimai particularly, which is a gem.
“Pol Pot, Nuon Chea, Ta Mok, Duch, Bun Rany, Yun Yat, You Yuon all Chinese. Ieng Sary, Son Sen Being Viet/Chinese.”
This is interesting…. Especially Mok…..Although whatever his lineage in Takeo, he was no city intellectual…..He was a down and dirty fighter/killer. Ieng Sary was of partly Chinese ancestry but it is his background as Kampuchea Krom that really defines him…. And of course back in the days in Paris when him and his radical buddies were hanging around the Rue de Théatre and the Place du Commerce he was very much the leader of the Circle Marxiste, whilst Saloth Sar, was pretty much a nobody. I wonder how much extra clout his Kampuchea Krom background gave him when the movement was emerging. …. At the time Khmer leftists were very much in the shadow of the Vietnamese as part of a wider Indochina movement…. Not that this made him any less anti ‘yuon’ (I hate that word) when the time came.
Reconciliation games
Andrew, do you actually have any faith that the ICC will consider a case against Abhisit?
Is there any precedent for this, considering they usually deal with war crimes and crimes against humanity?
Isn’t the whole thing just counter-PR from Amsterdam to embarrass Abhisit and make it look like Thaksin/RA is actually trying to do something to hold people to account (at least on the army/govt side) for the May 19, 2010 crackdown?
That seemed to be the tone and thrust of Robert Amsterdam’s speech to the red shirts on May 19, 2012, when he said such an ICC conviction/case “may never happen… but we are trying”. [not a verbatim quote