MacG: > “I can’t reveal my sources but it should be obvious that I would not have received the content of the SMS messages and published them if those close to him were against this”
Sorry, I’m afraid it’s not obvious. You’re trying to insinuate that you received the the content from ‘those close to him’ or got the encouragement to publish from ‘those close to him’. Come out with it Andrew – ‘those close to him’ is a big enough group.
It’s also important to make clear that when the king said in 2005 that he can “do wrong”, the implicit message was not the same as the superficial message.
“King Pumipon has limited powers. He cannot order the military to stage coups or to gun down pro-democracy demonstrators, although he provides legitimacy for such vile actions afterwards. But one thing that Pumipon HAS the power to do is to say that lèse majesté must no longer be used and all lèse majesté prisoners should be immediately released. After all, the Thai ruling class claim that this barbaric law is there to protect Pumipon. Yet Pumipon said not a word about releasing the prisoners. He does not care a fig about ordinary Thai people, and shows more affiliation with his pet dogs. This is not the first time that Pumipon has remained silent and allowed innocent people like Aa-Kong to die. He remained silent when 3 innocent palace servants were executed for his brother’s death. Pumipon knew they were innocent because he was there when his brother died of a gun-shot wound.”
In response to Andrew Spooner, #52, of course I can’t reveal my sources but it should be obvious that I would not have received the content of the SMS messages and published them if those close to him were against this.
It’s disappointing that some of those who claim to be against 112 also believe that information should be suppressed.
The king did pay some lip service in favor of amending the lese majeste law in 2005. Has he done anything else?
The problem is not that politicians are not listening. The problem is that they will likely be kicked out of the country by an ultra-royalist mob supported by the army if they do try to change it.
Speaking of witch hunts, Karntoop was at the rally at the criminal court yesterday – there are some with a bit of spunk out there. (Interestingly she spoke out against the Red-Shirt involvement.)
MAcG just posted the Thai language translation of his piece. Right now only one other site has published the offending messages – we’ll see if that figure shoots up.
The case of “Uncle SMS” highlights the incompetence of the Thai judicial system,. Incompetent or corrupt lawyers who do not understand technical details about IMEI numbers and who present evidence themselves instead of asking experts to explain it to the courts are part of the problem. Anyone with a decade old phone has a fair chance that his or her IMEI is cloned hundreds of times. We all remember the shops unlocking phones on every street corner.
Crooked prosecutors who act on behalf of their political puppet masters and who do not search for evidence but are in the game to convict people instead of finding the truth, could have known that anyone could have send an SMS by simply changing a SIM or by using a phone with a cloned IMEI. Crooked judges who are in the habit of kissing Royal Boots and do not want to be seen as lenient are to blame too. They lack all the basic standards that you might expect from judges. The bottom line is that Thailand is a banana kingdom when it comes to justice.
Abhisit can’t even get the facts straight about his own citizenship and what nationality he used when he enrolled at Oxford. What was Abhisit’s line when confronted with Robert Amsterdam’s recent documentary evidence that he had been a registered voter in the UK? “I can’t remember.”
Abhisit is a proven liar and dissembler. That is without doubt and backed up by incontrovertible evidence.
Knowing what I know about Abhisit – that not only is he a proven liar but that he is also a complete control freak – I personally find his denials about that he wasn’t aware a close political aide was filing charges on this matter completely unbelievable.
Abhisit has a long record of lying, misinforming and also of a lack of compassion to the point he is prepared to kill dozens of unarmed Thais.
So it’s not a question of evidence at this point – it’s a question of whether Abhisit is a reliable witness. He isn’t. At all.
I don’t believe him and, in fact, my belief is that he likely encouraged his staff member to press charges.
The king made his views on 112 clear in 2005 when Thaksin was prime minister. He said the law damages the monarchy, cases should be dropped and prisoners freed. The king does not make or rescind legislation. The politicians do. All he can do is speak out against it, which he did, and pardon those convicted.
If the politicians don’t listen to him, well, isn’t that what a lot of those posting here want anyway?
Now, I’ve seen comments here before claiming that the king must have given different signals or ‘instructions’ behind the scenes. But there has never been any proof of that. Not in any wikileaks cables or anywhere else.
Thaksin and those who followed could have acted to amend 112 and defended themselves against any backlash with the king’s own words. Yet, they did not. They should be asked to explain themselves.
Until they do, posts like the one made by CT are not only at odds with the facts, they are childish.
“Of course this particular inquisition was begun by Abhisit Vejjajiva and Somkiat Krongwattanasuk working in tandem. Using Amphon as a pawn in the Royal Thai Army’s program of terror.”
Asked about the case at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand recently, Abhisit said he was unaware of it until he read about it in the newspapers, at which point it was already in court. Unless you can present evidence to prove he was lying, then you’re just making stuff up and the liar is you.
I am with Andrew Spooner here. Revealing the 4 SMS messages would only expose Ah Kong’s family, other lese majeste victims and activists countering LM law to greater disadvantage. The hate campaign would mount up and even the originally neutral by-standers may take think Ah Kong deserved it. Anti-LM campaign can be dragged into confrontation and little progress may be expected if the hyper royalists drum up protests too.
Andrew Spooner is also correct about the essential evidence is not the content of SMS but the origin. The SMS texts were expectable even if they were not released. But the sender and the recipient of these SMS are the utmost crucial key to doing Ah Kong the justice.
My heart is with Ah Kong, his family, and many other LM victims.
Andrew Spooner: The family have already suffered something ‘detrimental’ in losing Ah Kong, and as part of their ‘funeral rites’ included dragging the coffin to the criminal court I think they can stand this. Regarding the trial, I read they brought in two ‘experts’ to explain the messages so that evidence was actually important. (Note the key part of Somkiat’s testimony involved him insisting how he was so moved by the content of the messages.) I also read that a German mobile phone expert was barred from giving evidence.
We have had copies of the SMS evidence for several months but had no part whatsoever in publishing such material which, as I understand it, was done without consulting family members of Ah Kong who at this point haven’t even completed their funeral rites.
I should also say the actual real effects of publishing that material at such a moment are likely to be detrimental to the family, whom we know have been recipients of a long-standing hate campaign. This has extended even to Ah Kong’s grandchildren. I would imagine that the publishing of the SMSs are only likely to add to these kind of vile hate campaigns.
While there might be a desire when safe in the confines of Canberra, London or Singapore to publish the “truth”, persons in those locations, including myself, won’t feel the effects and consequences of taking such an action.
Anyone who knew the case well would also know that the key piece of evidence wasn’t the contents of the SMSs but the origin of them. As I understand it Thai mobile phone experts refused to testify in court – a testimony that would have added sufficient ambiguity to the prosecution’s case to render it unsubstantiated.
If anything is to be done now to aid the application of posthumous justice for Ah Kong it would be the quiet work of finding the right kind of expert outside of Thailand to prove that that sufficient ambiguity existed and working to publish their findings.
“As to the Thai Embassy burning, it was created by Thailand itself.”
Curious point of view. Can you elaborate?
“Cambodia’s market was burned by the Thai armies at Preah Vihear Temple costing over one million and Preah Vihear temple itself was very damaged by the Thai tanks!!!!”
This exactly what I mean about the way in which these issues are used by both sides to whip up nationalist fervour.
“Khmer people love their temples and they do anything to protect their temples.”
How do you feel about Phimai (Korat Province), Phanom Rung (Buriram Province), Prasat Meumg Singh (kanchanaburi Privince) or Wat Chao Chan (Sukhothai Province)?….. Or indeed Wat Phu in Champassak Province in Laos…. All of these are Khmer temples.
Which province are you from, if you don’t mind me asking?…. Unless you are spoof Khmer…. This thread has been getting surreal of late and is drifting far away from the subject of Nick’s article.
#39 Phala “You like[d] the Bangkok Post?”
Not particularly, no.
#41 Chivan “Khmer politicians don’t play the nationalist card”
Ho, ho, ho.
“Have you ever seen any country in the world allowing their people yelling and insulting other country on TV everyday like the PAD in Thailand?”
Yes.
“Thailand and that’s why you have Hun Sen allowing his free vehicles to pick up the red shirts from border to meet Thaksin in Cambodia and that what this topic is all about.”
Very elaborate way of getting back to the subject of the motor pool.
Who mentioned anything about the “efficient market hypothesis”? This is also a 20th century myth postulated by Adam Smith & co. A market orientation concerns seeking, identifying, & pursuing opportunities just like farmers do in Australia, China, New Zealand and South Africa in “new rural industry” approaches (the old new crops framework). Its about developing new supply chains that create value chains (see Porter and others), and even further than that, putting opportunity at the centre of agriculture strategy. Doing it any other way tends to create new industries that cannot be sustained. History has shown that only entrepreneurs can do that (see Opportunity, Strategy & Entrepreneurship, Vol. 1,Chapt 2). It is the Swifts, the Edisons, the Ford’s the Rockerfellas that created transformation – certainly not the hidden hand of Adam Smith. Malaysian agricultural transformation will only occur through visionary entrepreneurs who become the “champions” of change.
Chivan and Phala: There will never be good relations while ignorance pervades. There’s a huge surplus on both sides.
Regarding Suvanant Kongying: If that interview had really happened then we’d know about it, information like that cannot just be ‘removed’ or ‘hidden’. But it seems in this case that ignorance trumped the truth.
And do we need to flog the Siam->Thai vs Khmers-never-changed-their-identity thing? Where is it leading? The names Kampuchea and Kambuja can never be used again for the Khmer nation because they have been forever despoiled. So aren’t both sides equal on this matter?
I do agree with you that the level of government intervention in the Malaysian economy is disconcerting.
However, with the “efficient market hypothesis” now clearly relegated to the backwaters of economic theory, how do you explain that markets will force or steer the transformation as argued in this article?
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Ar Kong dead
If we’re going to quote Ji Ungpakorn can we at least go to the source:
http://redthaisocialist.com/english-article/53-human-rights/347-pumipon-abhisit-and-yingluk-killed-aa-kong.html
it’s also less likely to be blocked. Alternate link that’s even less likely to be blocked:
http://links.org.au/node/2858
Ar Kong dead
MacG: > “I can’t reveal my sources but it should be obvious that I would not have received the content of the SMS messages and published them if those close to him were against this”
Sorry, I’m afraid it’s not obvious. You’re trying to insinuate that you received the the content from ‘those close to him’ or got the encouragement to publish from ‘those close to him’. Come out with it Andrew – ‘those close to him’ is a big enough group.
Ar Kong dead
It’s also important to make clear that when the king said in 2005 that he can “do wrong”, the implicit message was not the same as the superficial message.
Michael K. Connors explains why here: http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2008/09/king-can-do-wrong.html
As Ji Ungpakorn said this week :
“King Pumipon has limited powers. He cannot order the military to stage coups or to gun down pro-democracy demonstrators, although he provides legitimacy for such vile actions afterwards. But one thing that Pumipon HAS the power to do is to say that lèse majesté must no longer be used and all lèse majesté prisoners should be immediately released. After all, the Thai ruling class claim that this barbaric law is there to protect Pumipon. Yet Pumipon said not a word about releasing the prisoners. He does not care a fig about ordinary Thai people, and shows more affiliation with his pet dogs. This is not the first time that Pumipon has remained silent and allowed innocent people like Aa-Kong to die. He remained silent when 3 innocent palace servants were executed for his brother’s death. Pumipon knew they were innocent because he was there when his brother died of a gun-shot wound.”
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/ji-ungpakorn-on-ampols-passing/
Ar Kong dead
Many thanks to laoguy #49 for sharing the link to “A tale of two grandfathers”. It is also now available in Thai here: http://www.zenjournalist.com/2012/05/р╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Ыр╕╣р╣И/
Since the Ministry of Information and Communications Technology is now blocking my blog, the post is also available on Facebook. It’s in English here: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=424043510948327 and in Thai here: http://www.facebook.com/notes/andrew-macgregor-marshall/р╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Ыр╕╣р╣Ир╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Кр╕гр╕▓р╕ар╕▓р╕Ю/425081504177861
In response to Andrew Spooner, #52, of course I can’t reveal my sources but it should be obvious that I would not have received the content of the SMS messages and published them if those close to him were against this.
It’s disappointing that some of those who claim to be against 112 also believe that information should be suppressed.
Best wishes
Andrew MacGregor Marshall
Ar Kong dead
@jg45 #56
The king did pay some lip service in favor of amending the lese majeste law in 2005. Has he done anything else?
The problem is not that politicians are not listening. The problem is that they will likely be kicked out of the country by an ultra-royalist mob supported by the army if they do try to change it.
Ar Kong dead
Speaking of witch hunts, Karntoop was at the rally at the criminal court yesterday – there are some with a bit of spunk out there. (Interestingly she spoke out against the Red-Shirt involvement.)
MAcG just posted the Thai language translation of his piece. Right now only one other site has published the offending messages – we’ll see if that figure shoots up.
Ar Kong dead
The case of “Uncle SMS” highlights the incompetence of the Thai judicial system,. Incompetent or corrupt lawyers who do not understand technical details about IMEI numbers and who present evidence themselves instead of asking experts to explain it to the courts are part of the problem. Anyone with a decade old phone has a fair chance that his or her IMEI is cloned hundreds of times. We all remember the shops unlocking phones on every street corner.
Crooked prosecutors who act on behalf of their political puppet masters and who do not search for evidence but are in the game to convict people instead of finding the truth, could have known that anyone could have send an SMS by simply changing a SIM or by using a phone with a cloned IMEI. Crooked judges who are in the habit of kissing Royal Boots and do not want to be seen as lenient are to blame too. They lack all the basic standards that you might expect from judges. The bottom line is that Thailand is a banana kingdom when it comes to justice.
Ar Kong dead
JG45
Abhisit can’t even get the facts straight about his own citizenship and what nationality he used when he enrolled at Oxford. What was Abhisit’s line when confronted with Robert Amsterdam’s recent documentary evidence that he had been a registered voter in the UK? “I can’t remember.”
Abhisit is a proven liar and dissembler. That is without doubt and backed up by incontrovertible evidence.
Knowing what I know about Abhisit – that not only is he a proven liar but that he is also a complete control freak – I personally find his denials about that he wasn’t aware a close political aide was filing charges on this matter completely unbelievable.
Abhisit has a long record of lying, misinforming and also of a lack of compassion to the point he is prepared to kill dozens of unarmed Thais.
So it’s not a question of evidence at this point – it’s a question of whether Abhisit is a reliable witness. He isn’t. At all.
I don’t believe him and, in fact, my belief is that he likely encouraged his staff member to press charges.
Ar Kong dead
The king made his views on 112 clear in 2005 when Thaksin was prime minister. He said the law damages the monarchy, cases should be dropped and prisoners freed. The king does not make or rescind legislation. The politicians do. All he can do is speak out against it, which he did, and pardon those convicted.
If the politicians don’t listen to him, well, isn’t that what a lot of those posting here want anyway?
Now, I’ve seen comments here before claiming that the king must have given different signals or ‘instructions’ behind the scenes. But there has never been any proof of that. Not in any wikileaks cables or anywhere else.
Thaksin and those who followed could have acted to amend 112 and defended themselves against any backlash with the king’s own words. Yet, they did not. They should be asked to explain themselves.
Until they do, posts like the one made by CT are not only at odds with the facts, they are childish.
Ar Kong dead
“Of course this particular inquisition was begun by Abhisit Vejjajiva and Somkiat Krongwattanasuk working in tandem. Using Amphon as a pawn in the Royal Thai Army’s program of terror.”
Asked about the case at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand recently, Abhisit said he was unaware of it until he read about it in the newspapers, at which point it was already in court. Unless you can present evidence to prove he was lying, then you’re just making stuff up and the liar is you.
Ar Kong dead
I am with Andrew Spooner here. Revealing the 4 SMS messages would only expose Ah Kong’s family, other lese majeste victims and activists countering LM law to greater disadvantage. The hate campaign would mount up and even the originally neutral by-standers may take think Ah Kong deserved it. Anti-LM campaign can be dragged into confrontation and little progress may be expected if the hyper royalists drum up protests too.
Andrew Spooner is also correct about the essential evidence is not the content of SMS but the origin. The SMS texts were expectable even if they were not released. But the sender and the recipient of these SMS are the utmost crucial key to doing Ah Kong the justice.
My heart is with Ah Kong, his family, and many other LM victims.
Ar Kong dead
Andrew Spooner: The family have already suffered something ‘detrimental’ in losing Ah Kong, and as part of their ‘funeral rites’ included dragging the coffin to the criminal court I think they can stand this. Regarding the trial, I read they brought in two ‘experts’ to explain the messages so that evidence was actually important. (Note the key part of Somkiat’s testimony involved him insisting how he was so moved by the content of the messages.) I also read that a German mobile phone expert was barred from giving evidence.
Chut Wutty: Tragic casualty of Cambodia’s dirty war to save forests
And never forget the words he spoke just five minutes before being killed –
“I am a slave… ” he asked, ” – to who?”
Paul Everingham.
[email protected]
quote: Cambodia Daily; 28/29 April ’12)
Ar Kong dead
We have had copies of the SMS evidence for several months but had no part whatsoever in publishing such material which, as I understand it, was done without consulting family members of Ah Kong who at this point haven’t even completed their funeral rites.
I should also say the actual real effects of publishing that material at such a moment are likely to be detrimental to the family, whom we know have been recipients of a long-standing hate campaign. This has extended even to Ah Kong’s grandchildren. I would imagine that the publishing of the SMSs are only likely to add to these kind of vile hate campaigns.
While there might be a desire when safe in the confines of Canberra, London or Singapore to publish the “truth”, persons in those locations, including myself, won’t feel the effects and consequences of taking such an action.
Anyone who knew the case well would also know that the key piece of evidence wasn’t the contents of the SMSs but the origin of them. As I understand it Thai mobile phone experts refused to testify in court – a testimony that would have added sufficient ambiguity to the prosecution’s case to render it unsubstantiated.
If anything is to be done now to aid the application of posthumous justice for Ah Kong it would be the quiet work of finding the right kind of expert outside of Thailand to prove that that sufficient ambiguity existed and working to publish their findings.
Review of Political Authority and Provincial Identity in Thailand
Jack Radcliffe, I got my copy from Asia Books last week
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#138 Phala
“As to the Thai Embassy burning, it was created by Thailand itself.”
Curious point of view. Can you elaborate?
“Cambodia’s market was burned by the Thai armies at Preah Vihear Temple costing over one million and Preah Vihear temple itself was very damaged by the Thai tanks!!!!”
This exactly what I mean about the way in which these issues are used by both sides to whip up nationalist fervour.
“Khmer people love their temples and they do anything to protect their temples.”
How do you feel about Phimai (Korat Province), Phanom Rung (Buriram Province), Prasat Meumg Singh (kanchanaburi Privince) or Wat Chao Chan (Sukhothai Province)?….. Or indeed Wat Phu in Champassak Province in Laos…. All of these are Khmer temples.
Which province are you from, if you don’t mind me asking?…. Unless you are spoof Khmer…. This thread has been getting surreal of late and is drifting far away from the subject of Nick’s article.
#39 Phala “You like[d] the Bangkok Post?”
Not particularly, no.
#41 Chivan “Khmer politicians don’t play the nationalist card”
Ho, ho, ho.
“Have you ever seen any country in the world allowing their people yelling and insulting other country on TV everyday like the PAD in Thailand?”
Yes.
“Thailand and that’s why you have Hun Sen allowing his free vehicles to pick up the red shirts from border to meet Thaksin in Cambodia and that what this topic is all about.”
Very elaborate way of getting back to the subject of the motor pool.
Agriculture in Malaysia’s economic and social transformation
Who mentioned anything about the “efficient market hypothesis”? This is also a 20th century myth postulated by Adam Smith & co. A market orientation concerns seeking, identifying, & pursuing opportunities just like farmers do in Australia, China, New Zealand and South Africa in “new rural industry” approaches (the old new crops framework). Its about developing new supply chains that create value chains (see Porter and others), and even further than that, putting opportunity at the centre of agriculture strategy. Doing it any other way tends to create new industries that cannot be sustained. History has shown that only entrepreneurs can do that (see Opportunity, Strategy & Entrepreneurship, Vol. 1,Chapt 2). It is the Swifts, the Edisons, the Ford’s the Rockerfellas that created transformation – certainly not the hidden hand of Adam Smith. Malaysian agricultural transformation will only occur through visionary entrepreneurs who become the “champions” of change.
Ar Kong dead
Both PPT and Zenjournalist generate the usual
“р╕Вр╕нр╕нр╕ар╕▒р╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕кр╕░р╕Фр╕зр╕Б
р╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕гр╕зр╕Зр╣Ар╕Чр╕Др╣Вр╕Щр╣Вр╕ер╕вр╕╡р╕кр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕кр╕▓р╕г р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕│р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕гр╕░р╕Зр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Ьр╕вр╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╣Ар╕зр╣Зр╕Ър╣Др╕Лр╕Фр╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Кр╕б
р╣Ар╕Щр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕бр╕╡р╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╕ар╕▓р╕Ю р╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕б р╣Бр╕ер╕░ р╣Ар╕Щр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕▓р╕Ър╕▓р╕Зр╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕░р╕кр╕б р╕кр╕нр╕Ър╕Цр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕нр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╣Ар╕Юр╕┤р╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕Хр╕┤р╕бр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Чр╕╡р╣И
р╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕гр╕зр╕Зр╣Ар╕Чр╕Др╣Вр╕Щр╣Вр╕ер╕вр╕╡р╕кр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕кр╕▓р╕г р╣Вр╕Чр╕г 0 2141 6950”…
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Chivan and Phala: There will never be good relations while ignorance pervades. There’s a huge surplus on both sides.
Regarding Suvanant Kongying: If that interview had really happened then we’d know about it, information like that cannot just be ‘removed’ or ‘hidden’. But it seems in this case that ignorance trumped the truth.
More here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Phnom_Penh_riots
And do we need to flog the Siam->Thai vs Khmers-never-changed-their-identity thing? Where is it leading? The names Kampuchea and Kambuja can never be used again for the Khmer nation because they have been forever despoiled. So aren’t both sides equal on this matter?
Agriculture in Malaysia’s economic and social transformation
Murray,
I do agree with you that the level of government intervention in the Malaysian economy is disconcerting.
However, with the “efficient market hypothesis” now clearly relegated to the backwaters of economic theory, how do you explain that markets will force or steer the transformation as argued in this article?