Jon:
Pertinent question.
The issue actually predate 2005 with behind-the-scenes agreements and later partial exposure of what and who is involved. Money rules.
I know very little about Hitler. What Tarrin said above is what I did not know. Perhaps you did a history course in uni. I did not. But this is what I know about Hitler from the Course I did at university:
1) Hitler brainwashed the Germans to be fanatical to him;
2) He enacted the law which made it illegal for anyone to oppose his party’s policy;
3) Anyone who found to be opposing his regime will be imprisoned;
and
4) Anyone can report anyone to authorities they do not support Hitler’s regime. There is rampant witchhunting in the German society at that era. Fanatican Germans were actively looking for people who did not support Hitler and report them to the authorities, believing that these people are ‘threat to national security’.
Just for these four facts, I’d say the analogy between Thaksin and Hitler is not convincing. The reasons it is unconvincing is as followed:
1) While it is true Thaksin used the media to gain people’s support, his attempt would not cross the line to ‘brainwashing’. Brainwashing means claiming that x is the nation, without x, the nation cannot survive, every good thing in the nation occurs because of x etc. Thaksin has not gone that far;
2) Thaksin never enacted the law which made it illegal for anyone to criticise him;
3) Thaksin never jailed anyone who does not vote for him;
4) No one can report the person who merely does not support Thaksin’s party to authorities for that person to be criminally guilty. Thaksin supporters do not actively witchhunt people who oppose him, and do not brand them as threat to national security.
However, there is one person in Thailand who did these four things Hitler did, and this person also has a lot of fanatics actively witchhunting people who do not love him and report them to authorities. So I ask you this:
1) I believe you know who that person is, do you?
2) And because what this person is doing is so similar to what Hitler had been doing, the Hitler analogy would suit this person more than Thaksin, wouldn’t it?
He won the largest percentage of votes. This is not about direct parallels.
Yes, Hitler won the largest vote BUT he had no executive power, come on why do you think I even mentioned about Reichtag fire or Constitution article 48?
Hence democracy is about rather more than voting. Dictatorship by the back door is a perfectly feasible result of weak institutions and a systemically corrupt political class
Yes democracy is more than voting, totally agree, but you have degrading your point by saying “Hitler came trough power from voting” sort of direction since it is obviously not the case.
Thaksin is obviously not the first person who make Thailand what it is today, our executive institution has never been strong, even by the 1997 constitution and the evidence of that is our 60 years history of continuous coup, political chaos and bloodshed.
Your way of think that “political morality” (if that’s what you mean since I totally dont get what point you are trying to make) is going to fix anything has been tired for decades and its not changing anything. That’s why many people here like “Pro-democracy John Smith ” CT or me has been suggesting that we should start from the Monarch institution and the military, not the political party.
Double dip recession is now a reality in the UK under the wonderful leadership of the coalition govt some have dubbed the ConDem govt with their relentless deflationary measures in the public sector across the board on top of some chronic ‘salami slicing’ , and then banking on the private sector to step into the breach and pick up the pieces which will never happen so long as the orders and contracts from the state, a major purchaser, continue to decline.
I’m not sure you can call QE Keynesian. The man can’t defend himself and he’s had enough bad press over such a long time it’s beginning to look like Adam Smith being misinterpreted by posterity to suit their own agenda. Isn’t it more monetarist ├а la Thatcher albeit in the inflationary direction ‘printing’ so much money so often?
Burma could be the next Asian Tiger says the UN special adviser ‘U Nanbya’. Perhaps more in danger of becoming the next Asian Whore, no doubt with the bling and cheap makeup (like the ‘disco gold’ on our pagodas), under the current political management. More likely the rape of Burma will intensify exponentially in a free for all, everyone of course talking the visionary and green PC language while masking their greed. And China is certainly not out of the picture, far from it.
Whether the trickle-down will be substantial is quite another matter. What is certain is that the ruling elite (‘power sharers’ included, ethnic and Bamar) will be laughing all the way to the bank while we the peoples of Burma will be in deep hock to the IMF and all the world class Chettiars for generations to come.
As to democracy, direct democracy these days means e-petitions and referendums as well as ballots, and nowhere near workers’ self management. And of course conventional wisdom maintains that left wing ideology and democracy are antithetical. As are a ruling elite and mob rule.
Any chance either of you two guys are actually going to get round to addressing any topic raised in the last post and a few previous? Maybe, or perhaps, when that point concerns the state sponsored murder of Thai citizens without a arrest or trial under the auspices of a government with a popularly and democratically elected majority in the house?…. Or will you continue to evade and sidestep (you both appear practiced).
Or even address answers posted to your own previous misinterpretations?……. Go on gents…..Give it a go.
Or are you going to continue to willfully misunderstand the points made about other elected politicians throughout the last century, drawing inept conclusions?
Here are a couple starters for you.
A. Chalerm Yubamrung?……Any opinions?
B. The relative validity of democracy in a culture of ‘democracy’ where those fragile institutions are abused….. You can start with the Weimar Republic and Adolf Hitler or Mussolini…. The rise of both of which demonstrate just how institutions that define democracy can be manipulated when those institutions are fragile…. But I don’t think you will address that….. will you? Having missed the point in the first place.
Or you could tell me about your love for both Margaret Thatcher and George W Bush…. Given that both were democratically elected (bar the odd hanging chad in one case)….. But I again I think you will shy away from that too…..
So lets pick a starting point…. And pick Chalerm Yubamrung since he is actually Deputy PM and is a good an example of how a ‘democracy’ movement can pick a well known strong arm gangster and put him into power, knowing all along that him actually being in power would be the outcome….
The former to provide more subsidized dire need real estate space the latter cheap food from the vast acreage of Myanmar farm land acquire through the generals, exclusively for Singapore consumers.
Making Consumer products prices even lower than Myanmar and else where!
Singapore government has foresight to ALL ASPECTS of its citizenry needs.
Dan (and I apologize to others for being off topic and having to make an obvious point several times): The first point is that you seem unable to distinguish between a coup and an election (as in your claim about Mussolini). This suggests you are likely to be equally likely to be blind on Thailand.
Another point is that you claimed both Hitler and Mussolini were elected to power. Both are high school clangers. You ignore this by saying something else.
A third point, based on your most recent reply is that you are unable to read beyond a first paragraph. That might explain why you seem unable to gain any context on Thailand’s politics. You quote the first para of Wikipedia. But then the same article says things like: “In early February, the Nazis “unleashed a campaign of violence and terror that dwarfed anything seen so far.” It goes on to discuss massive censorship and a reign of terror. Then followed the Reichstag fire, leading to an “emergency law [that] removed many civil liberties…”. It continues saying a “combination of terror, repression and propaganda was mobilized in every… community, large and small, across the land.”
As I said, context matters, and all of this is why in “1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting…”. by way of a reign of terror.
“If your one sided perspective of the violence is correct and the Army was intent on the cold blooded killing of unarmed innocent protestors”
My evidence that the Army did participate in the cold-blooded killing of unarmed innocent protesters is that there was big pile of corpses at the end without any evidence existing that any of those persons were armed. If the Army had shot the “black shirts” then you’d have a case. They didn’t. They shot unarmed women, children and other ordinary Red Shirt protesters. They even killed two foreign journalists.
The Thai Army have a long track record of conducting such brutal actions in Thailand. They did it in 1973, 1992, Krue Sae, Tak Bai, Bangkok 2010.
So there’s a huge historical precedence as well.
So I would contend that the army didn’t just engage in the cold blooded killing of unarmed innocent protestors the one time in 2010 but have engaged in such actions on several occasions.
Given that record of coups/massacres trying to create an equivalence between the Army and the UDD is nonsense.
One has a long, well-documented history of brutal killings and abrogating democracy through the use of force. The other might have links to an as yet unverified group of unknown armed assailants and called for an election.
The Army has a history of complete impunity, avoiding all prosecution and proper investigation. The prisons are full of UDD people incarcerated from mere infractions of draconian and oppressive emergency laws.
As for why aren’t PTP conducting a full investigation now?
Well, for one, the Army have threatened a coup. Not an excuse in my book but a political reality, the scope and consequences of which neither you nor I have to make a decision on.
“Of course you might be arguing that democracy as a form of political practice is a failure because it helped bring people like Hitler to power.”
No…. Not a failure as a form of political practice… Simply that to function successfully democracy depends on more than simply casting votes. It is far more complex than that and depends on the integrity of the institutions that one needs to support it and the effective regulation of abuses … And this has a great deal to do with all the political parties and most of the political players within Thailand…. As an example, it should be the democratic right of the citizen of any democracy not to be summarily murdered (without arrest or trial for anything at all) by agents of the state on the orders of the government of the day, simply because some local cop perceived you as being part of a wider social ill or the local mafia chief has a grudge against you…. I would see that not being murdered arbitrarily by agents the state is a fairly fundamental democratic right….. If state institutions feel thbey have the democratic right to summarily execute their own citizens without arrest or trial, then the institutions are or have been pervereted and democracy is not in place.
“If you haven’t, comparing PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 is ludicrous.”
I didn’t compare PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 …. And indeed if I had done it would have been ridiculous. Your reasoning is fallacious and peopled with straw men (which means I have s strong feeling I know what what this ‘John Smith’s ‘ real name is). PTs 2011 election victory looked pretty emphatic to me…. Even with margins for error and the inevitable levels of chicanery, I don’t think anyone could dispute it as an outright PT victory by a long very way.
“I’m unsure what it is you’re exactly trying to say by invoking Hitler and 1933. ”
I also invoked George W Bush and Margaret Thatcher…. If you bother to read the thread you would understand why……. This is not about direct repro of political and historical situations…. It is to illustrate that ‘democracy’ is dependent on a complex set of factors both in the practice of elections and the ‘democratic’ administration of government….. The former does not guarentee the latter.
“Or you might be making an argument that democracies have inherent flaws in them and can lead to the election of “bad” people. ”
That is true…
“But what is your solution? ”
Why do you think there is neccesarily a solution on offer?…
“No-one here, least of all myself, has ever argued PT’s 2011 election victory is emblematic of perfect democracy. But compared to military coups and snipers being used against civilians it is progress. ”
Yes of course…. That is exactly what I have been arguing…. We could also chuck into the mix politiically sponsored thugs murdering commuters and passers by on Silom Road or intimdating the sick and the dying in nearby hospitals….. Elections were always due. Early elections were demanded by the mob and were granted and the political masters of that mob then refused them, highlighting that the demand itself was never sincere…. What followed was horrible carnage….. And then PT won the elections anyway which was always likely to have been the outcome….. Approx 91 dead for nowt.
“And Thaksin’s formidable skills as a campaigner – Nick’s report of him taking two and a half hours to meet everyone is key.”
No one would deny his populist skills in the pursuance of his own interest.
“Can you imagine Abhisit doing that? Not in a million years. He’d sneer at the poor Thais and talk in his “perfect English” to a enraptured Western reporter who’d then report on what a wonderful politician Abhisit is.”
Abhisit has skills as a populist are useless…. Which is a bit of a disadvantage if you are running for office….. Especially when you are heading up a party that has all the contemporary political appeal of tepid kippers.
“I also don’t think Thaksin has ever hidden his desire to be incredibly rich. But has he secured US$35 billion via Thai taxpayers? I think not. At least he managed to actually help create wealth rather than accrue it without any scrutiny or oversight. ”
I hear the cry of the lesser-spotted-lobbyist……
#36 Tarrin “His position was later solidify by the Enabling act which effectively put all power under the chanceller. Yes, Hitler was an appointed dictator, not the elected one. ”
And?…. He won the largest percentage of votes. This is not about direct parallels. It is about the fragility of outcomes when the institutions are weak or malleable…… Hence democracy is about rather more than voting. Dictatorship by the back door is a perfectly feasible result of weak institutions and a systemically corrupt political class…. And is a rather more likely outcome in Thailand than some sort of utopian march to true happiness given the truly mafia like collection of ne’er do wells that people the political class and indeed the business class (although you might just want to knock those two into one largerly).
Yes, the Democrat led government did not setup an open, fully empowered investigation into the 2010 violence. But where did I just blame PTP for that not happening? All said was that it is becoming more and more obvious that the PTP and UDD leadership do not want one, even though they now have the power to do so.
Again, putting words in my mouth to divert attention away from the real issue.
If your one sided perspective of the violence is correct and the Army was intent on the cold blooded killing of unarmed innocent protestors then the reason the Democrat lead government did not so would be plain to see.
What is PTP’s reasons for not doing so now? Who are they protecting and why?
“Nor will you ever go into what was the reason for the armed element within the UDD in 2010.”
That is absolutely wrong.
I have done so, to some extend, during the ISEAS conference on the effects of the military coup last September, and in my paper which will be published in a book following this conference the topic of Red Shirt armed militants is included.
I will write about this issue more extensively in my own book on 2010, volume 3 of the series, which i have been working for quite a while.
But i will not write about this issue out of context. Just because some in this internet age seem to demand instant gratification does not mean that i will have to provide such. I will write about it when i feel confident enough that what i write is correct.
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Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
Jon:
Pertinent question.
The issue actually predate 2005 with behind-the-scenes agreements and later partial exposure of what and who is involved. Money rules.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Can I add my two cents into this Hitler debate?
I know very little about Hitler. What Tarrin said above is what I did not know. Perhaps you did a history course in uni. I did not. But this is what I know about Hitler from the Course I did at university:
1) Hitler brainwashed the Germans to be fanatical to him;
2) He enacted the law which made it illegal for anyone to oppose his party’s policy;
3) Anyone who found to be opposing his regime will be imprisoned;
and
4) Anyone can report anyone to authorities they do not support Hitler’s regime. There is rampant witchhunting in the German society at that era. Fanatican Germans were actively looking for people who did not support Hitler and report them to the authorities, believing that these people are ‘threat to national security’.
Just for these four facts, I’d say the analogy between Thaksin and Hitler is not convincing. The reasons it is unconvincing is as followed:
1) While it is true Thaksin used the media to gain people’s support, his attempt would not cross the line to ‘brainwashing’. Brainwashing means claiming that x is the nation, without x, the nation cannot survive, every good thing in the nation occurs because of x etc. Thaksin has not gone that far;
2) Thaksin never enacted the law which made it illegal for anyone to criticise him;
3) Thaksin never jailed anyone who does not vote for him;
4) No one can report the person who merely does not support Thaksin’s party to authorities for that person to be criminally guilty. Thaksin supporters do not actively witchhunt people who oppose him, and do not brand them as threat to national security.
However, there is one person in Thailand who did these four things Hitler did, and this person also has a lot of fanatics actively witchhunting people who do not love him and report them to authorities. So I ask you this:
1) I believe you know who that person is, do you?
2) And because what this person is doing is so similar to what Hitler had been doing, the Hitler analogy would suit this person more than Thaksin, wouldn’t it?
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
Did any recent on the ground research go into this article? All the photos are from 2009.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan: who is doing the avoiding? If you can’t get basic facts right, what’s the point? Missing points? Speak for yourself.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan #40
He won the largest percentage of votes. This is not about direct parallels.
Yes, Hitler won the largest vote BUT he had no executive power, come on why do you think I even mentioned about Reichtag fire or Constitution article 48?
Hence democracy is about rather more than voting. Dictatorship by the back door is a perfectly feasible result of weak institutions and a systemically corrupt political class
Yes democracy is more than voting, totally agree, but you have degrading your point by saying “Hitler came trough power from voting” sort of direction since it is obviously not the case.
Thaksin is obviously not the first person who make Thailand what it is today, our executive institution has never been strong, even by the 1997 constitution and the evidence of that is our 60 years history of continuous coup, political chaos and bloodshed.
Your way of think that “political morality” (if that’s what you mean since I totally dont get what point you are trying to make) is going to fix anything has been tired for decades and its not changing anything. That’s why many people here like “Pro-democracy John Smith ” CT or me has been suggesting that we should start from the Monarch institution and the military, not the political party.
Malaysia in turmoil?
A sign of progress in Malaysia?
The Bersih Chairperson, Ms. Ambiga Sreenevasan debating the UMNO Youth Chief, Mr. Khairy Jamaluddin on why the need for Bersih 3.0 [Video HERE].
Khairy Jamaluddin, having been ostracised by UMNO appears to be taking a strategy of moderating UMNO’s hardline image by taking part in debates.
HERE he is debating PKR strategic director, Rafizi Ramli in the United Kingdom, on which coalition has a better vision for Malaysia.
Khairy will also debate Rafizi on the abolishing the higher education loan scheme.
Booming Burma
Thanks Ohn and Stephen, spot on.
Double dip recession is now a reality in the UK under the wonderful leadership of the coalition govt some have dubbed the ConDem govt with their relentless deflationary measures in the public sector across the board on top of some chronic ‘salami slicing’ , and then banking on the private sector to step into the breach and pick up the pieces which will never happen so long as the orders and contracts from the state, a major purchaser, continue to decline.
I’m not sure you can call QE Keynesian. The man can’t defend himself and he’s had enough bad press over such a long time it’s beginning to look like Adam Smith being misinterpreted by posterity to suit their own agenda. Isn’t it more monetarist ├а la Thatcher albeit in the inflationary direction ‘printing’ so much money so often?
Burma could be the next Asian Tiger says the UN special adviser ‘U Nanbya’. Perhaps more in danger of becoming the next Asian Whore, no doubt with the bling and cheap makeup (like the ‘disco gold’ on our pagodas), under the current political management. More likely the rape of Burma will intensify exponentially in a free for all, everyone of course talking the visionary and green PC language while masking their greed. And China is certainly not out of the picture, far from it.
Whether the trickle-down will be substantial is quite another matter. What is certain is that the ruling elite (‘power sharers’ included, ethnic and Bamar) will be laughing all the way to the bank while we the peoples of Burma will be in deep hock to the IMF and all the world class Chettiars for generations to come.
As to democracy, direct democracy these days means e-petitions and referendums as well as ballots, and nowhere near workers’ self management. And of course conventional wisdom maintains that left wing ideology and democracy are antithetical. As are a ruling elite and mob rule.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Thaksin only came on the scene a decade or so ago, and whilst a product & manipulator of the ‘system’, he’s not the root of all its problems.
Whilst he has many shortcomings, we can at least be thankful that its not illegal to criticize Thaksin, and the army doesn’t kill to ‘protect’ him.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
#42 & 43 Ralph and pro-Oligarch John Smith
Any chance either of you two guys are actually going to get round to addressing any topic raised in the last post and a few previous? Maybe, or perhaps, when that point concerns the state sponsored murder of Thai citizens without a arrest or trial under the auspices of a government with a popularly and democratically elected majority in the house?…. Or will you continue to evade and sidestep (you both appear practiced).
Or even address answers posted to your own previous misinterpretations?……. Go on gents…..Give it a go.
Or are you going to continue to willfully misunderstand the points made about other elected politicians throughout the last century, drawing inept conclusions?
Here are a couple starters for you.
A. Chalerm Yubamrung?……Any opinions?
B. The relative validity of democracy in a culture of ‘democracy’ where those fragile institutions are abused….. You can start with the Weimar Republic and Adolf Hitler or Mussolini…. The rise of both of which demonstrate just how institutions that define democracy can be manipulated when those institutions are fragile…. But I don’t think you will address that….. will you? Having missed the point in the first place.
Or you could tell me about your love for both Margaret Thatcher and George W Bush…. Given that both were democratically elected (bar the odd hanging chad in one case)….. But I again I think you will shy away from that too…..
So lets pick a starting point…. And pick Chalerm Yubamrung since he is actually Deputy PM and is a good an example of how a ‘democracy’ movement can pick a well known strong arm gangster and put him into power, knowing all along that him actually being in power would be the outcome….
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
Reclamation vs Acquisition par proxy
The former to provide more subsidized dire need real estate space the latter cheap food from the vast acreage of Myanmar farm land acquire through the generals, exclusively for Singapore consumers.
Making Consumer products prices even lower than Myanmar and else where!
Singapore government has foresight to ALL ASPECTS of its citizenry needs.
This is but one example.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan (and I apologize to others for being off topic and having to make an obvious point several times): The first point is that you seem unable to distinguish between a coup and an election (as in your claim about Mussolini). This suggests you are likely to be equally likely to be blind on Thailand.
Another point is that you claimed both Hitler and Mussolini were elected to power. Both are high school clangers. You ignore this by saying something else.
A third point, based on your most recent reply is that you are unable to read beyond a first paragraph. That might explain why you seem unable to gain any context on Thailand’s politics. You quote the first para of Wikipedia. But then the same article says things like: “In early February, the Nazis “unleashed a campaign of violence and terror that dwarfed anything seen so far.” It goes on to discuss massive censorship and a reign of terror. Then followed the Reichstag fire, leading to an “emergency law [that] removed many civil liberties…”. It continues saying a “combination of terror, repression and propaganda was mobilized in every… community, large and small, across the land.”
As I said, context matters, and all of this is why in “1933 the Nazis gained by far the largest number of votes of any party contesting…”. by way of a reign of terror.
A Red Shirt Songkran party and amnesty thoughts
John Smith
You asked
“If your one sided perspective of the violence is correct and the Army was intent on the cold blooded killing of unarmed innocent protestors”
My evidence that the Army did participate in the cold-blooded killing of unarmed innocent protesters is that there was big pile of corpses at the end without any evidence existing that any of those persons were armed. If the Army had shot the “black shirts” then you’d have a case. They didn’t. They shot unarmed women, children and other ordinary Red Shirt protesters. They even killed two foreign journalists.
The Thai Army have a long track record of conducting such brutal actions in Thailand. They did it in 1973, 1992, Krue Sae, Tak Bai, Bangkok 2010.
So there’s a huge historical precedence as well.
So I would contend that the army didn’t just engage in the cold blooded killing of unarmed innocent protestors the one time in 2010 but have engaged in such actions on several occasions.
Given that record of coups/massacres trying to create an equivalence between the Army and the UDD is nonsense.
One has a long, well-documented history of brutal killings and abrogating democracy through the use of force. The other might have links to an as yet unverified group of unknown armed assailants and called for an election.
The Army has a history of complete impunity, avoiding all prosecution and proper investigation. The prisons are full of UDD people incarcerated from mere infractions of draconian and oppressive emergency laws.
As for why aren’t PTP conducting a full investigation now?
Well, for one, the Army have threatened a coup. Not an excuse in my book but a political reality, the scope and consequences of which neither you nor I have to make a decision on.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Dan
Using an historical anomaly to make a general point about democracy and democratic elections wouldn’t get past a high school debate.
I could point out 1000 comparisons that reveal the democratic system working very well when a politician wins an election.
You’re only making yourself look silly by carrying on with Hitler/Thaksin comparison.
I’d give it up.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
erewhon #39
The date of Mr. T’s flight to Bkk and a future cabinet position for Mr. S or his nominee?
You mean another cabinet position. There is already one.
Thanis Thienthong: Deputy Interior Minister.
http://www.newmandala.org/2011/08/10/yinglucks-cabinet/
That is a daughter I believe.
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
# 37 John Smith
“Of course you might be arguing that democracy as a form of political practice is a failure because it helped bring people like Hitler to power.”
No…. Not a failure as a form of political practice… Simply that to function successfully democracy depends on more than simply casting votes. It is far more complex than that and depends on the integrity of the institutions that one needs to support it and the effective regulation of abuses … And this has a great deal to do with all the political parties and most of the political players within Thailand…. As an example, it should be the democratic right of the citizen of any democracy not to be summarily murdered (without arrest or trial for anything at all) by agents of the state on the orders of the government of the day, simply because some local cop perceived you as being part of a wider social ill or the local mafia chief has a grudge against you…. I would see that not being murdered arbitrarily by agents the state is a fairly fundamental democratic right….. If state institutions feel thbey have the democratic right to summarily execute their own citizens without arrest or trial, then the institutions are or have been pervereted and democracy is not in place.
“If you haven’t, comparing PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 is ludicrous.”
I didn’t compare PT’s 2011 election victory to Hitler’s in 1933 …. And indeed if I had done it would have been ridiculous. Your reasoning is fallacious and peopled with straw men (which means I have s strong feeling I know what what this ‘John Smith’s ‘ real name is). PTs 2011 election victory looked pretty emphatic to me…. Even with margins for error and the inevitable levels of chicanery, I don’t think anyone could dispute it as an outright PT victory by a long very way.
“I’m unsure what it is you’re exactly trying to say by invoking Hitler and 1933. ”
I also invoked George W Bush and Margaret Thatcher…. If you bother to read the thread you would understand why……. This is not about direct repro of political and historical situations…. It is to illustrate that ‘democracy’ is dependent on a complex set of factors both in the practice of elections and the ‘democratic’ administration of government….. The former does not guarentee the latter.
“Or you might be making an argument that democracies have inherent flaws in them and can lead to the election of “bad” people. ”
That is true…
“But what is your solution? ”
Why do you think there is neccesarily a solution on offer?…
“No-one here, least of all myself, has ever argued PT’s 2011 election victory is emblematic of perfect democracy. But compared to military coups and snipers being used against civilians it is progress. ”
Yes of course…. That is exactly what I have been arguing…. We could also chuck into the mix politiically sponsored thugs murdering commuters and passers by on Silom Road or intimdating the sick and the dying in nearby hospitals….. Elections were always due. Early elections were demanded by the mob and were granted and the political masters of that mob then refused them, highlighting that the demand itself was never sincere…. What followed was horrible carnage….. And then PT won the elections anyway which was always likely to have been the outcome….. Approx 91 dead for nowt.
“And Thaksin’s formidable skills as a campaigner – Nick’s report of him taking two and a half hours to meet everyone is key.”
No one would deny his populist skills in the pursuance of his own interest.
“Can you imagine Abhisit doing that? Not in a million years. He’d sneer at the poor Thais and talk in his “perfect English” to a enraptured Western reporter who’d then report on what a wonderful politician Abhisit is.”
Abhisit has skills as a populist are useless…. Which is a bit of a disadvantage if you are running for office….. Especially when you are heading up a party that has all the contemporary political appeal of tepid kippers.
“I also don’t think Thaksin has ever hidden his desire to be incredibly rich. But has he secured US$35 billion via Thai taxpayers? I think not. At least he managed to actually help create wealth rather than accrue it without any scrutiny or oversight. ”
I hear the cry of the lesser-spotted-lobbyist……
#36 Tarrin “His position was later solidify by the Enabling act which effectively put all power under the chanceller. Yes, Hitler was an appointed dictator, not the elected one. ”
And?…. He won the largest percentage of votes. This is not about direct parallels. It is about the fragility of outcomes when the institutions are weak or malleable…… Hence democracy is about rather more than voting. Dictatorship by the back door is a perfectly feasible result of weak institutions and a systemically corrupt political class…. And is a rather more likely outcome in Thailand than some sort of utopian march to true happiness given the truly mafia like collection of ne’er do wells that people the political class and indeed the business class (although you might just want to knock those two into one largerly).
Songkran in Cambodia: Red Shirts meet Thaksin
Fascinating to know what Mr T and Sanoh Thienthong had to talk about.
The date of Mr. T’s flight to Bkk and a future cabinet position for Mr. S or his nominee?
Surely not.
A Red Shirt Songkran party and amnesty thoughts
Other John #8
Yes, the Democrat led government did not setup an open, fully empowered investigation into the 2010 violence. But where did I just blame PTP for that not happening? All said was that it is becoming more and more obvious that the PTP and UDD leadership do not want one, even though they now have the power to do so.
Again, putting words in my mouth to divert attention away from the real issue.
If your one sided perspective of the violence is correct and the Army was intent on the cold blooded killing of unarmed innocent protestors then the reason the Democrat lead government did not so would be plain to see.
What is PTP’s reasons for not doing so now? Who are they protecting and why?
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
Hmmm… at the rate Singapore is “expanding”, there would NOT be a need for a bridge to connect Johor and Singapore over the Tebrau Straits.
A Red Shirt Songkran party and amnesty thoughts
“John Smith”:
“Nor will you ever go into what was the reason for the armed element within the UDD in 2010.”
That is absolutely wrong.
I have done so, to some extend, during the ISEAS conference on the effects of the military coup last September, and in my paper which will be published in a book following this conference the topic of Red Shirt armed militants is included.
I will write about this issue more extensively in my own book on 2010, volume 3 of the series, which i have been working for quite a while.
But i will not write about this issue out of context. Just because some in this internet age seem to demand instant gratification does not mean that i will have to provide such. I will write about it when i feel confident enough that what i write is correct.
Singapore’s insatiable hunger for sand
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/22/sand-dredging-singapore-construction-environment-cambodia_n_932840.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg11318.html
Lots of potential here…