I will have to most vehemently protest at the vicious, malicious, unprovoked and undeserved calumny directed by CT (#34) to the unloved (water) buffalo.
More ignorant anger than fact, CT should know there is no such thing as a yellow buffalo. But the Thais adore their Red Bulls and Carabao Daengs (Red Buffalo)!
Thailand has always been strong and independant and this requires a credible military force. Most asian militaries have already gotten or are aquiring submarines. Thailand likewise should get the 206’s from Germany or two used 209’s from S. Korea. Also Thailand should try to get eight used harrier jump jets from the US. For the Thai. Aircraft Carrier so that it will be a true Aircraft Carrier and not just a helicopter rescue ship.
So do we take the Aust Govt’s Ministery of Foreign Affairs at its word and agree that it did nothing at all for Harry Nicolaides except for the normal consular stuff?
IF a grand bargain has been struck, then we should assume that Thaksin’s return is only a matter of time (with no resistance from the anti-Thaksin elites).
But this does not seem to be the case, or are there any signals that suggest such a bargain.
To day I read in the Irrawaddy that Senator “McCain said that they did not discuss the recent jailing of U.S. citizen Joe Gordon with Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra during their Friday meeting. “The State Department and the embassy here say they have raised it at the highest level,” he said.
So I am glad that we have US Senators who at least recognize that Joe Gordon rots in Thai jail for exercising his First Amendment Rights in the United States.
However Joe has now been incarcerated far longer that other Foreigners incarcerated under the draconian measure, Article 112.
The Businessman on the the Thai airlines flight served a few weeks in Jail.
The Australian and the Swiss man both did about the same amount of time proir to guilty pleas than Mr. Gordon. However both were released a few weeks after those guilty pleas. Niccolades Jailed in about 5 months pretrail and about 5 weeks post trail. The jail terms imposed on the Australian, Swiss, and American were 2, 10. and 2.5 years respectively.
Joe Gordon’s incarceration for free speech now enters its ninth month. His sentence was eight weeks ago.
So It is time for Americans, including myself to start lobbying our American politicians. Joe’s continued incarceration should be discussed on the floor of the US Senate. Measures should be taken to start applying sanctions against the Goverment of Thailand for its continued intransegence and lack of respect for American Soveregnity.
Measured steps include:
1. State Department Declaring that Thailand has Political Prisoners.
2. Call the Thai Ambassador in for discussion.
3. Re-evaluate America’s involvement with what is increasingly becomming a not-free country.
This could include halting Naval R&R Visits, annual Cobra Gold exercises. provision of spare parts, cease joint training in the US and in Thailand of Police, Narcotics, and Military cooperation. Downsizing the US role in Utapao, Udorn, and Korat. Reducing the size of the US embassy staff Bangkok.
It is ironic that as Burma Opens, Thailand closes. Perhaps it is time for the US to make an exit.
Earlier I sought information from the Australian Parliament about the Harry Nicholiades case. The following response was provided to me on 19 January:
_______________________________________________
SENATE
Australians arrested in Thailand
(Question No. 1264)
Senator Bob Brown asked the Minister representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice on 28 September 2011:
In relation to Australians arrested in Thailand on charges of lese-majeste:
(1) Do Australian authorities advise a guilty plea, if so can the reasoning for this be provided.
(2) Have Australian authorities discussed concerns with their Thai counterparts about the court processes and bail applications for foreigners charged with this offense.
(3) Have Australian authorities discussed their opposition to the freedom of speech restrictions this law places on Thailand’s citizens and visitors.
Senator Conroy – the following answer has been provided by the Minister of Foreign Affairs to the Honorable Senator’s questions.
(1) No
(2) No
(3) The Australian Embassy in Bangkok discusses human rights issues, including in relation to freedom of speech with a range of interlocutors in Thailand, including senior government figures and officials.
Australia also delivered a statement to the United Nations Human Rights Council (HRC) on 5 October 2011 as part of the HRC’s review of the human rights situation in Thailand.
The Australian statement, in relevant part, suggested ‘that the committee established to provide advice on the conduct of lese majeste cases under Article 112 of Thailand’s Criminal Code, as part of deliberations, take account of Thailand’s international treaty obligations to protect freedom of expression’.
“Glorify past kings and queens”
“They don’t belong to Chakri Dynaty” – Does anyone here relate to James Cook and why are you celebrating Australia (invasion) day ? What do Australian people have to celebrate or glorify the “founder of this country”, when they don’t have anything to do with him !
By the way this movie was made in 2008 (production began long before), but in post production due to heavy CGI. The movie is “300” style and meant to glorify strong women in the history of Thailand.
“…many others are put off by what they perceive to be unwarranted meddling in theological matters by forces hostile to their religion.”
“It is thus intellectual dishonesty to use fictitious, disingenuously arabicised terminology such as “ummat kitab” to seek theological legitimation for out-conversion from Islam. […] However, foisting a discussion of so-called “apostasy” on calls to strengthen the much needed inter-religious dialogue in Malaysia is counterproductive.”
It seems that the author has vague idea of how theological issues are deliberated. To strictly separate intellectual integrity from the community of faith (or the “ummat kitab”) is to overlook the believers’ relation to religious matters is in fact a theological issue. The validity of theological affirmation/confession is inextricable from the religious community’s theological investigation due to the very nature of such discourse.
Whether the “many others” Muslims are put off because non-Muslims are discussing Islamic theology with them is really irrelevant. As made very clear, those stated views in the cited article (“Apostasy in Malaysia: The hidden view”) are taken from Muslims. Hence, if it is not a strawman, I wonder what “foisting” by “forces hostile” to Islam is the author referring to?
Besides, interfaith dialogue itself requires the dialogue partners to be able to comprehend and discuss each other’s theology on their partner’s terms. This means that non-Muslim must be able to talk Islamic theology to Muslims according to the latter’s terms, and vice versa. If this is not the case, then it is not a dialogue, but two persons talking across each other. (Of course, I’m here assuming that it is common knowledge that talking across each other is to be evaded in all kinds of dialogue.)
jonfernquest #1:
I guess the Burmese will ignore both Hayek and Ne Win (nothing to do with Marx). Industrial policy, East Asian style, is the obvious choice, being both well established within the region and the most successful development policy anywhere so far.
I think the “red buffaloes” who favour democracy and social welfare are still clevered than the yellow buffaloes who favour the parasite who does nothing but sucks taxes from the Thai people until he becomes the richest parasite in the world. Not to mention that this parasite kills his brother, has a wife who enjoys destroying democracy and killing her own subjects, has a son who is a sex maniac who has a porn star as his wife.
I think the yellow buffaloes are much more stupid that they favour these people who should not even born.
[…] claiming that the Chinese example was a good model to follow, as Southeast Asia politics blog New Mandala explains. Thankfully, the campaign fell flat but there are likely many royalists in Thailand who would […]
Stephen: “Myanmar began economic liberalisation over 20 years ago at the end of the 1980s”
Whatever economic liberalization there was only momentary, Burma has remained thoroughly cut off in ever way from the west. (Note: The owner of the Central Group in Thailand told me once about how when the wave of economic liberalization he participated ended, he towed his hotel in Yangon harbour, to Timor for the UN peacekeepers (lucky him), US investors eventually had to withdraw by law, leaving perhaps Taiwanese toy manufacturers and their factories (I met one) not surprising that living standards would drop).
On the other hand, China’s growing economic power in Burma, something that been developing for several decades now, is cited as one of the reasons for the recent opening to the West:
“…the motivation for change is credible. There are three parts to the answer of why Burma is changing now. The first is nationalism and an existential sense of needing options to balance perceived Chinese dominance of the economy, military acquisition, and infrastructure. Burma’s leaders privately describe tacit Chinese control of their economy as suffocating and encroaching on sovereignty. Local business leaders complain of Chinese companies’ ability to virtually flood their market at will with inexpensive goods. Unsurprisingly, Burma wants options and space.” (CLINTON IN BURMA: Visit seeks real reform by Ernest Bower)
Here is the wikipedia definition of “neoliberalism”:
“Neoliberalism is a contemporary form of economic liberalism that emphasizes the efficiency of private enterprise, liberalized trade and relatively open markets to promote globalization. Neoliberals therefore seek to maximize the role of the private sector in determining the political and economic priorities of the world.”
That doesn’t sound so bad compared to what Burma has now. Pretty much corresponds to the actual, albeit imperfect, way that things work in the existing world that we live. To think that somehow socialist intellectuals from the political chaos of Burma’s past, albeit intellectually rich, are somehow going to anticipate the needs of 50 million+ people in Burma would maybe make Hayek turn in his grave.
Democracy serving the interests of business can also be serving the interests of the people. Example, back in about 2001 small business person I knew had just recently imported fertilizer, government stockpiles oil for war with Thailand. Oil price shoots up, exchange rate depreciates, that fertilizer trader lost a lot of money. Unstable prices, unpredictable government actions, nepotistic business dealings, etc, etc make for an impossible business environment for all, large and small and never underestimate the importance of small business people in the economy. I am optimistic about recent changes in Burma.
An interesting article from Liew Chin Tong, DAP Member of Parliament and ANU alumni, on Dr. Mahathir’s “Grand Design” and the rise of Malay first hegemony.
It may shed some light on Dr. Mahathir’s approach to inter-religious relationships.
Just for the record I never “suddenly” change my stance about my perception on Chalerm or PT. If you even care to read my other previous post you might noticed that I never really praised them or given then any credit.
As for “The PT party has no cause other than the Thaksin cause. ” Actually I would rather say the establishment’s cause rather than Thaksin’s. Vichai the problem with your thinking is that you are just too stuck up with Thaksin that you fail to look at the big picture. Often times you mistaken people like me or CT for being pro-Thaksin but we are way beyond that.
We need a good study on why so much so-called love and loyalty incubates so much hatred and the veiled “We’ll die for our king” which really means “We’ll kill for our king.” And if public sentiment is not convincing the army will clean up afterward. This is really why Sondhi and others have called for a pact between the military and the people – both are violent and neither will ever need to be brought to account.
A massive US$8.6 billion (272 billion baht) port and industrial complex is also under construction in Dawei in the south by Italian-Thai Development Co, which has a 60-year concession. The industrial park is massive, 16 times bigger than the largest of any such project already built in Thailand.
“Looking ahead 20 years from now, 2030, the economy around the Indian Ocean would be growing more than it is now given the fact there are at least two major countries located nearby _ China and India,” said Somchet Thinaphong, managing director of Dawei Development Co. …end quote
Considering how top executives from many multi-national companies so misjudged the environment as to have their facilities trashed by the predictable great flood in Thailand in 2011 who will be so rash as to believe Dawei’s prediction?
Seems he has not heard of the looming climate catastrophe, which if it is to be avoided will require sudden and massive “de-growth” and an end to the bulk of international trade.
The Red Shirts should have for long realized that they have been buffaloes for the Pheuthai Party. The present government just wants only political power to make the invisible prime minister richer and richer. Sorry for the poor buffaloes. Ha ha ha.
Living in Thailand is like walking on eggshells. There is no rule of law, as CT #10 effectively indicates in his reply to Thomas Hoy. It is folly to put one’s faith in Thai “justice”.
I recall at the time of last year’s Thai general election replying to Andrew Walker’s comment on the destruction of election posters in some parts of the country. He compared it with the rough and tumble of local electioneering in his part of Australia. I disagreed with him then and I disagree with him now. There is an undercurrent of violence in Thai society which informs such actions and negates attempts to make valid comparisons with mature democracies.
This is an area where Thailand can rightfully claim to be unique, and it should be ashamed of itself.
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Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
I will have to most vehemently protest at the vicious, malicious, unprovoked and undeserved calumny directed by CT (#34) to the unloved (water) buffalo.
More ignorant anger than fact, CT should know there is no such thing as a yellow buffalo. But the Thais adore their Red Bulls and Carabao Daengs (Red Buffalo)!
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
@CT 34
Can you or any of your red buffaloes point out a country more democratic than Thailand in SE Asia in 2001?
Ever wonder why there were no coups between 1992 and 2006?
You are just another brainwashed empty head prancing around and declaring yourself, laughably, dtaa sawang.
On Thailand’s submarine ambitions
Thailand has always been strong and independant and this requires a credible military force. Most asian militaries have already gotten or are aquiring submarines. Thailand likewise should get the 206’s from Germany or two used 209’s from S. Korea. Also Thailand should try to get eight used harrier jump jets from the US. For the Thai. Aircraft Carrier so that it will be a true Aircraft Carrier and not just a helicopter rescue ship.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
So do we take the Aust Govt’s Ministery of Foreign Affairs at its word and agree that it did nothing at all for Harry Nicolaides except for the normal consular stuff?
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Perhaps it is time for a Thai charged with Lese Majeste to walk into the American Embassy and Request Political Asylum to bring this issue to a head.
It might be interesting.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
IF a grand bargain has been struck, then we should assume that Thaksin’s return is only a matter of time (with no resistance from the anti-Thaksin elites).
But this does not seem to be the case, or are there any signals that suggest such a bargain.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
To day I read in the Irrawaddy that Senator “McCain said that they did not discuss the recent jailing of U.S. citizen Joe Gordon with Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra during their Friday meeting. “The State Department and the embassy here say they have raised it at the highest level,” he said.
So I am glad that we have US Senators who at least recognize that Joe Gordon rots in Thai jail for exercising his First Amendment Rights in the United States.
However Joe has now been incarcerated far longer that other Foreigners incarcerated under the draconian measure, Article 112.
The Businessman on the the Thai airlines flight served a few weeks in Jail.
The Australian and the Swiss man both did about the same amount of time proir to guilty pleas than Mr. Gordon. However both were released a few weeks after those guilty pleas. Niccolades Jailed in about 5 months pretrail and about 5 weeks post trail. The jail terms imposed on the Australian, Swiss, and American were 2, 10. and 2.5 years respectively.
Joe Gordon’s incarceration for free speech now enters its ninth month. His sentence was eight weeks ago.
So It is time for Americans, including myself to start lobbying our American politicians. Joe’s continued incarceration should be discussed on the floor of the US Senate. Measures should be taken to start applying sanctions against the Goverment of Thailand for its continued intransegence and lack of respect for American Soveregnity.
Measured steps include:
1. State Department Declaring that Thailand has Political Prisoners.
2. Call the Thai Ambassador in for discussion.
3. Re-evaluate America’s involvement with what is increasingly becomming a not-free country.
This could include halting Naval R&R Visits, annual Cobra Gold exercises. provision of spare parts, cease joint training in the US and in Thailand of Police, Narcotics, and Military cooperation. Downsizing the US role in Utapao, Udorn, and Korat. Reducing the size of the US embassy staff Bangkok.
It is ironic that as Burma Opens, Thailand closes. Perhaps it is time for the US to make an exit.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Earlier I sought information from the Australian Parliament about the Harry Nicholiades case. The following response was provided to me on 19 January:
_______________________________________________
SENATE
Australians arrested in Thailand
(Question No. 1264)
Senator Bob Brown asked the Minister representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs, upon notice on 28 September 2011:
In relation to Australians arrested in Thailand on charges of lese-majeste:
(1) Do Australian authorities advise a guilty plea, if so can the reasoning for this be provided.
(2) Have Australian authorities discussed concerns with their Thai counterparts about the court processes and bail applications for foreigners charged with this offense.
(3) Have Australian authorities discussed their opposition to the freedom of speech restrictions this law places on Thailand’s citizens and visitors.
Senator Conroy – the following answer has been provided by the Minister of Foreign Affairs to the Honorable Senator’s questions.
(1) No
(2) No
(3) The Australian Embassy in Bangkok discusses human rights issues, including in relation to freedom of speech with a range of interlocutors in Thailand, including senior government figures and officials.
Australia also delivered a statement to the United Nations Human Rights Council (HRC) on 5 October 2011 as part of the HRC’s review of the human rights situation in Thailand.
The Australian statement, in relevant part, suggested ‘that the committee established to provide advice on the conduct of lese majeste cases under Article 112 of Thailand’s Criminal Code, as part of deliberations, take account of Thailand’s international treaty obligations to protect freedom of expression’.
Princess Ubolratana in Queen Jamadevi
“Glorify past kings and queens”
“They don’t belong to Chakri Dynaty” – Does anyone here relate to James Cook and why are you celebrating Australia (invasion) day ? What do Australian people have to celebrate or glorify the “founder of this country”, when they don’t have anything to do with him !
By the way this movie was made in 2008 (production began long before), but in post production due to heavy CGI. The movie is “300” style and meant to glorify strong women in the history of Thailand.
Christian-Muslim dialogue and Mahathir
The author wrote:
“…many others are put off by what they perceive to be unwarranted meddling in theological matters by forces hostile to their religion.”
“It is thus intellectual dishonesty to use fictitious, disingenuously arabicised terminology such as “ummat kitab” to seek theological legitimation for out-conversion from Islam. […] However, foisting a discussion of so-called “apostasy” on calls to strengthen the much needed inter-religious dialogue in Malaysia is counterproductive.”
It seems that the author has vague idea of how theological issues are deliberated. To strictly separate intellectual integrity from the community of faith (or the “ummat kitab”) is to overlook the believers’ relation to religious matters is in fact a theological issue. The validity of theological affirmation/confession is inextricable from the religious community’s theological investigation due to the very nature of such discourse.
Whether the “many others” Muslims are put off because non-Muslims are discussing Islamic theology with them is really irrelevant. As made very clear, those stated views in the cited article (“Apostasy in Malaysia: The hidden view”) are taken from Muslims. Hence, if it is not a strawman, I wonder what “foisting” by “forces hostile” to Islam is the author referring to?
Besides, interfaith dialogue itself requires the dialogue partners to be able to comprehend and discuss each other’s theology on their partner’s terms. This means that non-Muslim must be able to talk Islamic theology to Muslims according to the latter’s terms, and vice versa. If this is not the case, then it is not a dialogue, but two persons talking across each other. (Of course, I’m here assuming that it is common knowledge that talking across each other is to be evaded in all kinds of dialogue.)
Burma and the debates to come
jonfernquest #1:
I guess the Burmese will ignore both Hayek and Ne Win (nothing to do with Marx). Industrial policy, East Asian style, is the obvious choice, being both well established within the region and the most successful development policy anywhere so far.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
@RU #32
I think the “red buffaloes” who favour democracy and social welfare are still clevered than the yellow buffaloes who favour the parasite who does nothing but sucks taxes from the Thai people until he becomes the richest parasite in the world. Not to mention that this parasite kills his brother, has a wife who enjoys destroying democracy and killing her own subjects, has a son who is a sex maniac who has a porn star as his wife.
I think the yellow buffaloes are much more stupid that they favour these people who should not even born.
Mallika Boonmetrakul: an appalling Thai Politician
[…] claiming that the Chinese example was a good model to follow, as Southeast Asia politics blog New Mandala explains. Thankfully, the campaign fell flat but there are likely many royalists in Thailand who would […]
Burma and the debates to come
Stephen: “Myanmar began economic liberalisation over 20 years ago at the end of the 1980s”
Whatever economic liberalization there was only momentary, Burma has remained thoroughly cut off in ever way from the west. (Note: The owner of the Central Group in Thailand told me once about how when the wave of economic liberalization he participated ended, he towed his hotel in Yangon harbour, to Timor for the UN peacekeepers (lucky him), US investors eventually had to withdraw by law, leaving perhaps Taiwanese toy manufacturers and their factories (I met one) not surprising that living standards would drop).
On the other hand, China’s growing economic power in Burma, something that been developing for several decades now, is cited as one of the reasons for the recent opening to the West:
“…the motivation for change is credible. There are three parts to the answer of why Burma is changing now. The first is nationalism and an existential sense of needing options to balance perceived Chinese dominance of the economy, military acquisition, and infrastructure. Burma’s leaders privately describe tacit Chinese control of their economy as suffocating and encroaching on sovereignty. Local business leaders complain of Chinese companies’ ability to virtually flood their market at will with inexpensive goods. Unsurprisingly, Burma wants options and space.” (CLINTON IN BURMA: Visit seeks real reform by Ernest Bower)
Here is the wikipedia definition of “neoliberalism”:
“Neoliberalism is a contemporary form of economic liberalism that emphasizes the efficiency of private enterprise, liberalized trade and relatively open markets to promote globalization. Neoliberals therefore seek to maximize the role of the private sector in determining the political and economic priorities of the world.”
That doesn’t sound so bad compared to what Burma has now. Pretty much corresponds to the actual, albeit imperfect, way that things work in the existing world that we live. To think that somehow socialist intellectuals from the political chaos of Burma’s past, albeit intellectually rich, are somehow going to anticipate the needs of 50 million+ people in Burma would maybe make Hayek turn in his grave.
Democracy serving the interests of business can also be serving the interests of the people. Example, back in about 2001 small business person I knew had just recently imported fertilizer, government stockpiles oil for war with Thailand. Oil price shoots up, exchange rate depreciates, that fertilizer trader lost a lot of money. Unstable prices, unpredictable government actions, nepotistic business dealings, etc, etc make for an impossible business environment for all, large and small and never underestimate the importance of small business people in the economy. I am optimistic about recent changes in Burma.
🙂
Christian-Muslim dialogue and Mahathir
An interesting article from Liew Chin Tong, DAP Member of Parliament and ANU alumni, on Dr. Mahathir’s “Grand Design” and the rise of Malay first hegemony.
It may shed some light on Dr. Mahathir’s approach to inter-religious relationships.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
VichaiN – 30
Just for the record I never “suddenly” change my stance about my perception on Chalerm or PT. If you even care to read my other previous post you might noticed that I never really praised them or given then any credit.
As for “The PT party has no cause other than the Thaksin cause. ” Actually I would rather say the establishment’s cause rather than Thaksin’s. Vichai the problem with your thinking is that you are just too stuck up with Thaksin that you fail to look at the big picture. Often times you mistaken people like me or CT for being pro-Thaksin but we are way beyond that.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
We need a good study on why so much so-called love and loyalty incubates so much hatred and the veiled “We’ll die for our king” which really means “We’ll kill for our king.” And if public sentiment is not convincing the army will clean up afterward. This is really why Sondhi and others have called for a pact between the military and the people – both are violent and neither will ever need to be brought to account.
Burma and the debates to come
From today’s Bangkok Post about Burma:
A massive US$8.6 billion (272 billion baht) port and industrial complex is also under construction in Dawei in the south by Italian-Thai Development Co, which has a 60-year concession. The industrial park is massive, 16 times bigger than the largest of any such project already built in Thailand.
“Looking ahead 20 years from now, 2030, the economy around the Indian Ocean would be growing more than it is now given the fact there are at least two major countries located nearby _ China and India,” said Somchet Thinaphong, managing director of Dawei Development Co. …end quote
Considering how top executives from many multi-national companies so misjudged the environment as to have their facilities trashed by the predictable great flood in Thailand in 2011 who will be so rash as to believe Dawei’s prediction?
Seems he has not heard of the looming climate catastrophe, which if it is to be avoided will require sudden and massive “de-growth” and an end to the bulk of international trade.
Pheua Thai but for lese majeste
The Red Shirts should have for long realized that they have been buffaloes for the Pheuthai Party. The present government just wants only political power to make the invisible prime minister richer and richer. Sorry for the poor buffaloes. Ha ha ha.
A catalogue of threats against the Khana Nitirat
Living in Thailand is like walking on eggshells. There is no rule of law, as CT #10 effectively indicates in his reply to Thomas Hoy. It is folly to put one’s faith in Thai “justice”.
I recall at the time of last year’s Thai general election replying to Andrew Walker’s comment on the destruction of election posters in some parts of the country. He compared it with the rough and tumble of local electioneering in his part of Australia. I disagreed with him then and I disagree with him now. There is an undercurrent of violence in Thai society which informs such actions and negates attempts to make valid comparisons with mature democracies.
This is an area where Thailand can rightfully claim to be unique, and it should be ashamed of itself.