I’ve posted a follow-up to the original article. It’s an off-the-record interview with a man who spoke eloquently about the problem of development in Laos.
It is somewhat of an irony that those who seek free and fair elections forget their history. The CIA who use such pseudonyms as the NED (National Endowment for Democracy and the Carnegie Foundation) used NGO’s in the 1960’s in much the same way making similar demands as those being made by organizations as Bersih today. They did it in in South Viet Nam, Congo, most South American countries and in the middle east when they brought despots into power to serve their interests.
Demanding indelible ink be used in the elections is the recipe for disaster and fraud which they the CIA engineered in most of those states mentioned above in the 1960s’s and 1970’s. And where they failed to sway a majority they used assassinations like the did in Chile then in south Viet Nam and in the Congo and elsewhere like they did in Libya recently to change government.
The media which is meant to be independent like Al Jazeera whose independent journalists they assassinated in places like Iraq are today CIA funded (through Sheik Khalifa in Qatar) to further their propaganda. The BBC too is no longer independent.
Christian Amanpour aka Mrs. Ruben wife of former Clinton government assistant secretary of state although o an Islamic father who served the CIA has an anti Islamic bent and is protected by the US government. There are many more “journalists” in the US and the west that enjoy a similar pedigree in intelligence gathering and furthering the interests of the US and its private enterprises. Andrea Mitchell formerly of CNN is married to Alan Greenspan.
The same tactics used in other countries like the middle east are being used today in Libya, Syria, Russia and now Malaysia. What Singapore fails to realise is that they will not be spared in the wake of this minority led rebellion of violent overthrown of democratic governments.
Even though Singapore acts as a clearing house and station for private and government funded groups under the auspices of the US and its Central Intelligence Agency, the result will be bloodshed and long term instability in the region which will necessarily absorb them.
Already CIA leaks point to groups an individuals who have been trained in Australia and the US and Europe to shout “rigged elections” and to act as ‘Independent Observers” which they are not at election time to create the ground swell required to destabilse places like Malaysia.
Like Phillip Agee did in the 1960’s and Baer in the present day, a significant number of serving and recently retired operatives and agents of the CIA groups have outed the so called NGO’s in these places like Malaysia.
They include Bersih and the Sisters of Islam and at least 12 other groups who refer to themselves as NGO’s and as recipients of several millions of dollars to fund the destabilisation programme in Malaysia. Orang Asli groups are being feted in places like Australia (Sunshine coast Queensland) whilst the Catholics have indirect funding from the Vatican.
It is sad that the limited capacity of mainly lawyers in each of these countries like Ambiga Sreenivasan and much of the Malaysian bar should lead to such treachery in Malaysia. Power at all costs.
Back to the food topic….
Thai’s consider food as an important social occasion. Meeting friends and relatives for bonding and family reasons.-
The quality and look of the food is not important, but the social occasion is very important.
For them, food is the personification of social interaction.
There have been Chinese traders in Laos for centuries of course. It’s well documented, because some of them were ennobled, e.g, Phaya Setthi at the court of Anouvong. Many more came in the first half of the 20th century, and they easily assimilated.
Chinese-Lao marriages were common and many of the leading families under the old regime as well as the present are Sino-Lao. Typically wealthy Chinese married into the political elite to ensure their continued prosperity. They were not forced to take Lao names but many did by choice. All of the Chinese families I am related to in Laos have Lao names. They know their clan names but they do not use them.
“The real income inequality (and for that matter every other inequality) in Singapore is between the citizens and hi-end Expats and the millions of “temporary” workers brought in to do manual labour. Are they part of this analysis?”
Bingo! You hit the nail on the head and not only in Singapore.
Singapore has also stated that it can’t participate in the ASEAN-wide liberalization of labour markets slated for 2015.
But honestly, doesn’t reliance on migrant workers drive wages down for low wage earning Singaporeans too?
Part of the business news-speak associated with this is the phrase “labour shortage” instead of accepting the fact that a country is no longer competitive in a certain industry such as textiles in Thailand because wages in the country have priced it out of the export market. Then this is used as justification to increase the inflow of easily controllable migrant labourers with little or no rights.
Though a lot of what you write is interesting, I find that using the slogan ‘Truly Asia’ limits your post because it’s a ridiculous slogan, and so linking what you’re writing back to the slogan skews your point: that ethno-religious boundaries must be crossed.
You yourself become confused with it…
Near the conclusion, you write:
“I titled my research report “Malaysia, Truly Asia?” in order to question the authenticity of the government’s multi-million dollar tourism campaign. Is it one that truly exemplifies a country that is truly Asia? I truly think so.”
And then it seems you don’t think so, as you write to conclude:
“Ethno-religious boundaries must be crossed in order for Malaysia to achieve its full potential. It is only then, that Malaysia can be truly Asia.”
You see the inconsistency, I’m sure.
I am interested to know why “the results of the 2008 general elections demonstrated a divided and fragmented Malaysia. In a democracy, division and fragmentation could be considered a good thing! Why not discuss Oliver Roy’s notion of the Islamic revival in relation to Malaysia? You write “The controversy regarding the different apostasy cases, the debate over the use of the word “Allah”, the firebombing of churches, and the demolition of Hindu temples that have plagued Malaysia in the last few years must be seen within this Islamisation context.” Why not in the socio-economic context, or the educational context? If you’re going to make claims like this, you need to justify them with hard evidence. You seem to concede that the Sisters of Islam make a ‘close reading’ of the Quran and advocate a more pluralistic understanding… more akin to your own perhaps?
Subsequently, what you’ve written could be interpreted as a thinly guised tirade against Islam (‘global’ or otherwise), as the basis for questioning Malaysia’s Asian-ness. Is it? I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way as you’re advocating for dialogue. I don’t think questioning the slogan is helpful because it’s a ridiculous slogan that any country in the geographic zone with diverse ethnic and religious demographics could use. Obviously, within Asia (and the rest of the World), crossing ethno/religious boundaries is nothing that’s unique to Malaysia.
It seems, therefore, that your post seeks to justify a hack marketing campaign, rather than going beyond stating the obvious: that Malaysia needs an open an unfetted dialogue between groups to cross divisions (which has been said many a time on this site). So do many societies. I wonder whether or not this post was adapted from some sort of evangelical sermon, as while reading your many assumptions, I can only make my own. I feel that assumptions are not helpful for constructive dialogues, but your desire for such a dialogue, is.
‘ As a Thai, reading the New Mandala, and this thread in particular, always brings the feeling of shame, guilt and being humiliated. But somehow I can’t help but feel that we rightly deserve all the criticisms. ‘
There is no need to don the hairshirt. Thais are no better, no worse than any other of the world’s peoples.
I am an American and, as my country is now acting the terrorist aggressor world-wide I feel the same revulsion at the actions of my government that you do at yours. Certainly my nation is causing more suffering, trouble, and sorrow worldwide than is Thailand. And we Americans have much more control over our government than do Thais, so are more responsible for the crimes and excesses of our government than are Thais.
But comparing governments’ actions, the one with the other, with the idea of excusing one government’s crimes by citing another government’s worse crimes is a fallacious argument, although constantly resurrected. It’s very attractive to focus on someone else’s government’s crimes and hypocrisy and to remove focus from one’s own.
Of course, to the extent that any one of us has control over any government’s actions it is over our ‘own’ government’s that we have some… and over other governments that we have none at all.
So, from my point of view, blaming Thais for actions of the Thai government is a phoney exercise. Blaming Americans for our government’s actions is more to the point in my case, as an American the American government is the only one I can hope to have any influence over. And I have not had any to date.
It’s important to point out the failings of any and all governments, corporations, churches, NGOs, … institutions of any sort, and of the responsible people within for not ending those failings, but it seems a waste of time to feel guilt, shame, and humiliation for those actions. Better to identify the regimes in which one has any standing and to work to remedy those regimes’ failings. That is a never-ending job and leaves little time for guilt, shame, or humiliation.
Don’t waste time on those feelings, work instead to repeal Article 112, to free Thai political prisoners, to roll-back the legal environment to 18 September 2006 and to re-do the decisions taken since… in Thailand merely publicly and vocally supporting those positions is a ‘revolutionary act’, one with potentially great consequences.
Thailand is now like a super-saturated solution, with the knowledge of what’s-really-what still willfully suspended, but in such high concentration that seed-crystals spontaneously forming will soon bring a rain of crytalization that will quickly and completely change the political environment.
And after the phase change, of course, everyone will be found to have been against the brutality of the former regime, so there will be no need for guilt, shame, or humiliation.
In my admittedly limited experience, the Chinese that have lived in Laos for a generation or more have adapted. Many have married Lao men or women and speak Lao. Some can’t speak Chinese and would be completely out of water in China. The new arrivals are different and are, with their sense of superiority and self-isolation, much more like old European colonialists.
Could it be that the Chinese in Thailand, due to the fascist military regimes and the Thai nationalist movements in the early 20th century, were forced to adopt Thai ways and assimilate?
If I can recall, there were laws forcing the Chinese to adopt Thai names and similar items.
Let’s not forget that Gordon is also a duel citizen. In the eyes of the Thai authorities he is simply a Thai man who has blasphemed the Father of the nation, wrote in Thai linking to a Thai version of the Satanic Verses, and should be drawn and quartered and to hell with international norms. Gordon has had his “direct effect” indeed.
In the context of the US’s SE Asian realpolitik Joe Gordon is simply not very important as the US is now preoccupied with containing China. It’s relationship with Thailand is an old one and an important one in the region and this is paramount. Marines in Australia, US Naval ships now docking in Singapore, Burma and Vietnam looking to the US as a counterweight to China—this is what Hillary is looking at in her biggest meetings.
Legally, however, as Advocate has shared with us, his case is a genie out of a bottle in this world on instantaneous, electronic, transnational communication.
“The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better”. Sadly we have been slipping into more income inequality of late, not just Singapore. Socialist Nirvanas don’t solve it, they just create a parasite mentality, a bureaucrat elite and abysmal productivity eventually leading to bankruptcy; and failed Republics like the US don’t either as the elite are firmly in control and sucking like leeches on the economy, and will continue until they own it all.
The original US model was productive but as their founding fathers warned if the bankers took over that would be the end of it, and so it is. Greed is a difficult vice to overcome and is a toxic cancer in most systems, probably why they all get overturned violently in the end.
As I see it the Koran is sufficiently ambiguous that the sanctions for apostasy, are open to interpretation. There is no point arguing over what is the correct interpretation. If that hasn’t been resolved over the past 1,500 years it won’t be now.
The issue is this: if the texts and hadiths admit of more than one interpretation on apostasy and treatment of apostates, why do so many Muslims prefer interpretations which are contrary to human rights (Art. 19, I believe). I’m not convinced the answer has anything to do with religion at all.
I wasn’t meaning to suggest that all Thais think and behave like the coach party I described. Though the teachers in the group I mentioned were supposed to have been going there to learn about Vietnam and its culture. If they can’t find anything positive to say about the country, how can we expect them to teach their pupils about its good points?
Fortunately I didn’t have to travel with those people (I was staying in Danang at the time) but my friend did. She taught at their school and was stuck on the coach with them for 4 days.
Vietnamese look upon places such as Pattaya as a mecca of sorts:
True… and that is one thing that, when I was there, I could never and probably will never be able to understand.
Yeah, young children understand a lot more than adults give them credit for. Thats one reason I used to love (and still miss) teaching primary school aged kids…
Iain,
In Laos, Chinese have always hold fast to their traditions and they do not assimilate unlike the Chinese in Thailand. They may learn the Lao language for trade purposes but that’s it.
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Chinese merchants of Vientiane
I’ve posted a follow-up to the original article. It’s an off-the-record interview with a man who spoke eloquently about the problem of development in Laos.
Malaysia in turmoil?
It is somewhat of an irony that those who seek free and fair elections forget their history. The CIA who use such pseudonyms as the NED (National Endowment for Democracy and the Carnegie Foundation) used NGO’s in the 1960’s in much the same way making similar demands as those being made by organizations as Bersih today. They did it in in South Viet Nam, Congo, most South American countries and in the middle east when they brought despots into power to serve their interests.
Demanding indelible ink be used in the elections is the recipe for disaster and fraud which they the CIA engineered in most of those states mentioned above in the 1960s’s and 1970’s. And where they failed to sway a majority they used assassinations like the did in Chile then in south Viet Nam and in the Congo and elsewhere like they did in Libya recently to change government.
The media which is meant to be independent like Al Jazeera whose independent journalists they assassinated in places like Iraq are today CIA funded (through Sheik Khalifa in Qatar) to further their propaganda. The BBC too is no longer independent.
Christian Amanpour aka Mrs. Ruben wife of former Clinton government assistant secretary of state although o an Islamic father who served the CIA has an anti Islamic bent and is protected by the US government. There are many more “journalists” in the US and the west that enjoy a similar pedigree in intelligence gathering and furthering the interests of the US and its private enterprises. Andrea Mitchell formerly of CNN is married to Alan Greenspan.
The same tactics used in other countries like the middle east are being used today in Libya, Syria, Russia and now Malaysia. What Singapore fails to realise is that they will not be spared in the wake of this minority led rebellion of violent overthrown of democratic governments.
Even though Singapore acts as a clearing house and station for private and government funded groups under the auspices of the US and its Central Intelligence Agency, the result will be bloodshed and long term instability in the region which will necessarily absorb them.
Already CIA leaks point to groups an individuals who have been trained in Australia and the US and Europe to shout “rigged elections” and to act as ‘Independent Observers” which they are not at election time to create the ground swell required to destabilse places like Malaysia.
Like Phillip Agee did in the 1960’s and Baer in the present day, a significant number of serving and recently retired operatives and agents of the CIA groups have outed the so called NGO’s in these places like Malaysia.
They include Bersih and the Sisters of Islam and at least 12 other groups who refer to themselves as NGO’s and as recipients of several millions of dollars to fund the destabilisation programme in Malaysia. Orang Asli groups are being feted in places like Australia (Sunshine coast Queensland) whilst the Catholics have indirect funding from the Vatican.
It is sad that the limited capacity of mainly lawyers in each of these countries like Ambiga Sreenivasan and much of the Malaysian bar should lead to such treachery in Malaysia. Power at all costs.
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
Interesting Pakxe, thank you.
Southeast Asia’s Facebook revolution
Back to the food topic….
Thai’s consider food as an important social occasion. Meeting friends and relatives for bonding and family reasons.-
The quality and look of the food is not important, but the social occasion is very important.
For them, food is the personification of social interaction.
New Mandala’s 2011 Christmas Elves
Why are the Shinawatras in yellow costume?
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
There have been Chinese traders in Laos for centuries of course. It’s well documented, because some of them were ennobled, e.g, Phaya Setthi at the court of Anouvong. Many more came in the first half of the 20th century, and they easily assimilated.
Chinese-Lao marriages were common and many of the leading families under the old regime as well as the present are Sino-Lao. Typically wealthy Chinese married into the political elite to ensure their continued prosperity. They were not forced to take Lao names but many did by choice. All of the Chinese families I am related to in Laos have Lao names. They know their clan names but they do not use them.
Review of Agrarian Angst and Rural Resistance
Good news is that the book is now available from Routledge as a paperback. Circa $25.
Singapore’s inequality battle
“The real income inequality (and for that matter every other inequality) in Singapore is between the citizens and hi-end Expats and the millions of “temporary” workers brought in to do manual labour. Are they part of this analysis?”
Bingo! You hit the nail on the head and not only in Singapore.
Singapore has also stated that it can’t participate in the ASEAN-wide liberalization of labour markets slated for 2015.
But honestly, doesn’t reliance on migrant workers drive wages down for low wage earning Singaporeans too?
Part of the business news-speak associated with this is the phrase “labour shortage” instead of accepting the fact that a country is no longer competitive in a certain industry such as textiles in Thailand because wages in the country have priced it out of the export market. Then this is used as justification to increase the inflow of easily controllable migrant labourers with little or no rights.
Malaysia, truly Asia
Though a lot of what you write is interesting, I find that using the slogan ‘Truly Asia’ limits your post because it’s a ridiculous slogan, and so linking what you’re writing back to the slogan skews your point: that ethno-religious boundaries must be crossed.
You yourself become confused with it…
Near the conclusion, you write:
“I titled my research report “Malaysia, Truly Asia?” in order to question the authenticity of the government’s multi-million dollar tourism campaign. Is it one that truly exemplifies a country that is truly Asia? I truly think so.”
And then it seems you don’t think so, as you write to conclude:
“Ethno-religious boundaries must be crossed in order for Malaysia to achieve its full potential. It is only then, that Malaysia can be truly Asia.”
You see the inconsistency, I’m sure.
I am interested to know why “the results of the 2008 general elections demonstrated a divided and fragmented Malaysia. In a democracy, division and fragmentation could be considered a good thing! Why not discuss Oliver Roy’s notion of the Islamic revival in relation to Malaysia? You write “The controversy regarding the different apostasy cases, the debate over the use of the word “Allah”, the firebombing of churches, and the demolition of Hindu temples that have plagued Malaysia in the last few years must be seen within this Islamisation context.” Why not in the socio-economic context, or the educational context? If you’re going to make claims like this, you need to justify them with hard evidence. You seem to concede that the Sisters of Islam make a ‘close reading’ of the Quran and advocate a more pluralistic understanding… more akin to your own perhaps?
Subsequently, what you’ve written could be interpreted as a thinly guised tirade against Islam (‘global’ or otherwise), as the basis for questioning Malaysia’s Asian-ness. Is it? I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way as you’re advocating for dialogue. I don’t think questioning the slogan is helpful because it’s a ridiculous slogan that any country in the geographic zone with diverse ethnic and religious demographics could use. Obviously, within Asia (and the rest of the World), crossing ethno/religious boundaries is nothing that’s unique to Malaysia.
It seems, therefore, that your post seeks to justify a hack marketing campaign, rather than going beyond stating the obvious: that Malaysia needs an open an unfetted dialogue between groups to cross divisions (which has been said many a time on this site). So do many societies. I wonder whether or not this post was adapted from some sort of evangelical sermon, as while reading your many assumptions, I can only make my own. I feel that assumptions are not helpful for constructive dialogues, but your desire for such a dialogue, is.
Malaysia, truly Asia
Turns out that the tune to the Malaysia Truly Asia ad is in reality a traditional song from Indonesian Maluku, is that true
Thailand’s high calibre Ministry of Foreign Affairs
‘ As a Thai, reading the New Mandala, and this thread in particular, always brings the feeling of shame, guilt and being humiliated. But somehow I can’t help but feel that we rightly deserve all the criticisms. ‘
There is no need to don the hairshirt. Thais are no better, no worse than any other of the world’s peoples.
I am an American and, as my country is now acting the terrorist aggressor world-wide I feel the same revulsion at the actions of my government that you do at yours. Certainly my nation is causing more suffering, trouble, and sorrow worldwide than is Thailand. And we Americans have much more control over our government than do Thais, so are more responsible for the crimes and excesses of our government than are Thais.
But comparing governments’ actions, the one with the other, with the idea of excusing one government’s crimes by citing another government’s worse crimes is a fallacious argument, although constantly resurrected. It’s very attractive to focus on someone else’s government’s crimes and hypocrisy and to remove focus from one’s own.
Of course, to the extent that any one of us has control over any government’s actions it is over our ‘own’ government’s that we have some… and over other governments that we have none at all.
So, from my point of view, blaming Thais for actions of the Thai government is a phoney exercise. Blaming Americans for our government’s actions is more to the point in my case, as an American the American government is the only one I can hope to have any influence over. And I have not had any to date.
It’s important to point out the failings of any and all governments, corporations, churches, NGOs, … institutions of any sort, and of the responsible people within for not ending those failings, but it seems a waste of time to feel guilt, shame, and humiliation for those actions. Better to identify the regimes in which one has any standing and to work to remedy those regimes’ failings. That is a never-ending job and leaves little time for guilt, shame, or humiliation.
Don’t waste time on those feelings, work instead to repeal Article 112, to free Thai political prisoners, to roll-back the legal environment to 18 September 2006 and to re-do the decisions taken since… in Thailand merely publicly and vocally supporting those positions is a ‘revolutionary act’, one with potentially great consequences.
Thailand is now like a super-saturated solution, with the knowledge of what’s-really-what still willfully suspended, but in such high concentration that seed-crystals spontaneously forming will soon bring a rain of crytalization that will quickly and completely change the political environment.
And after the phase change, of course, everyone will be found to have been against the brutality of the former regime, so there will be no need for guilt, shame, or humiliation.
New Mandala’s 2011 Christmas Elves
Well, Happy Christmas of course, but why does Mister 112 have the diagonal line drawn through his face?
He’s more ‘popular’ than ever, enjoying the full support of both the other two elven Dara, if not of the other 66 million Thais.
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
Lanxang and Avouvong,
In my admittedly limited experience, the Chinese that have lived in Laos for a generation or more have adapted. Many have married Lao men or women and speak Lao. Some can’t speak Chinese and would be completely out of water in China. The new arrivals are different and are, with their sense of superiority and self-isolation, much more like old European colonialists.
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
Lanxang – 8,
Could it be that the Chinese in Thailand, due to the fascist military regimes and the Thai nationalist movements in the early 20th century, were forced to adopt Thai ways and assimilate?
If I can recall, there were laws forcing the Chinese to adopt Thai names and similar items.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Advocate presents a great case for action. Will Joe want to do it and will there be a lawyer in Colorado willing to take it on? I truly hope so.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Let’s not forget that Gordon is also a duel citizen. In the eyes of the Thai authorities he is simply a Thai man who has blasphemed the Father of the nation, wrote in Thai linking to a Thai version of the Satanic Verses, and should be drawn and quartered and to hell with international norms. Gordon has had his “direct effect” indeed.
In the context of the US’s SE Asian realpolitik Joe Gordon is simply not very important as the US is now preoccupied with containing China. It’s relationship with Thailand is an old one and an important one in the region and this is paramount. Marines in Australia, US Naval ships now docking in Singapore, Burma and Vietnam looking to the US as a counterweight to China—this is what Hillary is looking at in her biggest meetings.
Legally, however, as Advocate has shared with us, his case is a genie out of a bottle in this world on instantaneous, electronic, transnational communication.
Singapore’s inequality battle
“The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better”. Sadly we have been slipping into more income inequality of late, not just Singapore. Socialist Nirvanas don’t solve it, they just create a parasite mentality, a bureaucrat elite and abysmal productivity eventually leading to bankruptcy; and failed Republics like the US don’t either as the elite are firmly in control and sucking like leeches on the economy, and will continue until they own it all.
The original US model was productive but as their founding fathers warned if the bankers took over that would be the end of it, and so it is. Greed is a difficult vice to overcome and is a toxic cancer in most systems, probably why they all get overturned violently in the end.
Reckoning the peace/violence ambiguity in the apostasy debate
As I see it the Koran is sufficiently ambiguous that the sanctions for apostasy, are open to interpretation. There is no point arguing over what is the correct interpretation. If that hasn’t been resolved over the past 1,500 years it won’t be now.
The issue is this: if the texts and hadiths admit of more than one interpretation on apostasy and treatment of apostates, why do so many Muslims prefer interpretations which are contrary to human rights (Art. 19, I believe). I’m not convinced the answer has anything to do with religion at all.
Thailand’s high calibre Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Shane 33…
I agree with your points.
I wasn’t meaning to suggest that all Thais think and behave like the coach party I described. Though the teachers in the group I mentioned were supposed to have been going there to learn about Vietnam and its culture. If they can’t find anything positive to say about the country, how can we expect them to teach their pupils about its good points?
Fortunately I didn’t have to travel with those people (I was staying in Danang at the time) but my friend did. She taught at their school and was stuck on the coach with them for 4 days.
Vietnamese look upon places such as Pattaya as a mecca of sorts:
True… and that is one thing that, when I was there, I could never and probably will never be able to understand.
Yeah, young children understand a lot more than adults give them credit for. Thats one reason I used to love (and still miss) teaching primary school aged kids…
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
Iain,
In Laos, Chinese have always hold fast to their traditions and they do not assimilate unlike the Chinese in Thailand. They may learn the Lao language for trade purposes but that’s it.