I’m not so sure about Somchai’s ‘comment’ you refer to – it would seem he’s taking the piss, so to speak. If not, the brainwashing he received from his earliest years (assuming he is actually a Thai person) has worked a treat. The latter, however, is rather improbable for if we leave aside HM and his second daughter, where does one (in private, at least) hear any genuine praise for other members of the immediate family – in particular the mother, the son, or the unfortunate Clubhornlips? Many dyed-in-the wool monarchists, not to mention a vast swathe of the general public, cannot stomach this unholy trio of skidmarks. Naturally enough most people, in the interest of self-preservation, keep such ‘treasonous’ thoughts to themselves.
And why, in heaven’s name, are you posting, at great length Pol Gen Vasit’s comments without providing any of your own? The dreaded ‘party line’ , as we’re all too aware, is already available 24/7 via all media platforms in addition to the ever stimulating, thought provoking educational system.
One also wonders who was providing all those ‘thumbs up’ in the ‘Quality comment or not’ section? More piss takers?
Kerrie I don’t doubt there are many Thais who fit nicely into the categories you have described but that does not mean all do….apart from my own family I have traveled with people from Isarn (they do make up nearly one-third of Thailand’s population) through the Lao PDR and their observations and comments are not the same as those you traveled to Hoi An, Danang etc. It sounds positively horrible although quite predictable that Thais – indeed almost any group of people traveling this way – might make such comments.
Thailand’s “developed” aka “over-developed” social ecology of places such as Phuket, Trang and Koh Samui are of course not the same as what Vietnam has to offer. As I know firsthand from traveling between either Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh every week Vietnamese look upon places such as Pattaya as a mecca of sorts: most cannot afford Hua Hin.
This too is a bit off the point but I think the point I was trying to make is to avoid over-genralizing about what Thais or indeed any group of people know. The same of course applies to a person like myself because of course there are “Westerners” who read Lonley Planet Guide and become instant experts on whether they go although in their defence I sometimes think they have a more subtle understanding of many socieites and their peoples than people who work for international development agencies: this latter group of people I know a lot about.
Anyway it is matter of pride that even my 5 year old son can talk about the traffic in Hanoi or the handful of wealthy Vietnamese who can drive around in Rolls Royces and similar. In fact in a strange sort of a way I think he is learning more about inequality in Vietnam than in Thailand although in Thailand it is in your face if you want to experience it.
I hope in future you can travel with some more interesting Thais than you have in the past…..
Why must one guess that rich expats from liberal democratic societies have liberal democratic values? Liberal democracies would be fairly boring if everyone were a liberal democrat. We couldn’t be liberal democrats if we had nothing to kick against. I like that this post kicks against inequality, but dislike that it teeters on the pessimism that the Singaporean system of governance is rightfully due without, so to speak, sticking the boot in.
True…
People can educate their own children and encourage them through travel etc. to take an interest in the world around them. But how many Thais want/are able to do what you do? How many of the thousands who book coach tours to Vietnam see anything other than the quaint little shops in Hoi Ann, the tombs in Hue and the beach at Danang ? How many go there with the intention of learning something about the past rather than looking for and doing all things ‘sanuk’, jumping back on the coach and heading to the next place for more 5 minute photostops and ‘fun’ stuff…
I know this is going a bit off topic but I think that whilst many westerners who travel to this part of the world of try to learn something about the places they visit, when some Thai’s visit Vietnam/Laos etc. even if they do manage to venture off the little hitlist of places you mention, their visits just seem to reinforce their own sense of nationalist pride and their own ideas that Thailand and all things Thai are superior to anything and anywhere else….
For instance, here are some comments a group of Thai people who visited Danang in March/April 2011 made.
Vnams so dirty, people drop rubbish on the floor… Thailands so clean… Vnams so poor, so undeveloped, the houses are ugly, the cities have no history, the foods not tasty, its too cold (one I found hilarious since the people who visited Danang usually complained about Nan in March/April being far too hot…), there’s no culture, the beach isn’t beautiful, Phukets nicer… (me – have you ever been to Phuket? Thai person:- no, but I’ve seen pictures and it’s more beautiful and not cold and windy…) People are rude, unfriendly, they cheat you, things are expensive, there’s nothing beautiful to buy…
I could go on forever. All these people did was moan and constantly compare where they were to what things were like in Thailand. When I asked someone what they liked about Vnam they said ‘I don’t like it that much. There’s nothing interesting.’
In case you are wondering why, when they had such negative opinions the Thai group were so eager to travel there, it was a heavily subsidised trip, a ‘seuk sar do ngarn’ as government officers refer to them. The teachers and their friends, family and anyone else who wanted to go there cheaply were supposed to have been learning about Vietnam and it’s culture, but the organisers of the trip used their budget to book a standard tourist coach tour.
One of the people in the group, an English teacher asked in English how I could stay there OK, and said that I must spend every day wishing that I was back in Thailand and eating Thai food. She couldn’t understand that I enjoyed it, or the reasons why I did.
Anyway back to the (slightly off) topic…
How many people know that the history they are taught (and taught to accept without question) is at times, different to the historical narratives taught in other countries? And when there are differences, how many people try to find out and learn about alternative narratives of historical events ?
One thing I always found strange and very hard to understand during the time that I stayed in Thailand is the way that the official versions of events are believed and accepted even when people’s own personal experiences contradict what they are officially told/read in the newspapers etc…
Robert, you are right about the drastically poor conditions of migrant workers in Singapore.
Unfortunately, apart from some civil society groups such as Transient Workers Count Two, the vast majority of Singaporeans are neither concerned nor outraged about these poor conditions. This apathy may be attributed, in part, to the fact that Singaporeans themselves are so preoccupied and stressed out in the inequality as discussed in this article, that they have neither the time nor the effort to care about other less fortunate people. Some Singaporeans (e.g. labour importers) even exploit these migrant workers for their financial benefit.
One small puzzle that concerns me is that the well-off expats living in Singapore, don’t seem to care much about the poor conditions of migrant workers nor the authoritarian situation in Singapore. One must guess that coming from supposedly more “liberal democratic” countries that they might have more “liberal democratic” values and concerns. Maybe it is ignorance?
The real income inequality (and for that matter every other inequality) in Singapore is between the citizens and hi-end Expats and the millions of “temporary” workers brought in to do manual labour.
Are they part of this analysis?
I believe at this point in time there are several million of these “temporary workers” which is a very significant percentage of the working population and even the overall population.
None of them are treated very well as far as I can see in terms of working conditions, days off per month, hours worked per day, housing, civil rights, right to bring their families, become citizens, medical insurance, pensions, etc. and yet it is their labour which has built modern Singapore and also maintains modern Singapore.
The best that can be said is that they are still more than eager to come to Singapore as the conditions in their home countries are, of course, even worse, especially those from Bangladesh, Burma, Indonesia and the Philippines.
Sabai, my point is, I suppose, that Chinese immigrants can learn a great deal from Laos, just as Laos can learn a great deal from China. At the moment, they’re not interested, and intentionally isolate themselves, but in time that might – and hopefully will – change.
Just like the old adage “you have to be cruel to be kind”, some people justify their oppressive actions. Just like some religious people punish their adherents in order to “save” them. But sometimes, “good intentions kill”.
Thank you Joshua, for taking the time to pen your thoughts and response in such meticulous fashion. You explain and criticise but do not condemn outright as many people do. Please continue to write such articles to inform and advise people that there are other better and acceptable ways to deal with sensitive situations such as apostasy.
That is why it is not a stretch to say that Thailand was an ally of the Third Reich during WWII. While they did not sign the Tripartite Pact, they did sign an alliance with Japan. The leader, Phibun was not installed by the Japanese, so it is not like Puyi installed in Manchukuo.
After the war, Phibun was tried as a war criminal, found guilty and executed . NOT! The Thai army brought him back from exile and made him Prime Minister again.
Good for you Iain, re speaking Chinese and not Lao. Yes, as has been well documented, the Chinese are extensively in Laos. And?
A very interesting article and fantastic plug for your blog. What sort of fantastic advertisement you’re making for yourself I’m not sure, though. I hope you enjoy ‘doing’ this! Travel well, as so many have done before.
Neptunian,
Hurrah for the Chinese! They’ve learnt to be more subtle.
I don’t think that is quite correct, my dear Neptunian.
There are areas in northern Laos, northern Burma, southern Tibet, northeast India, along with Kyrgyzstan and the other “stans” where China has planted hundreds of thousands of Han settlers and lots of “flags”….and even some areas where the “natives” and their “dogs” are not allowed to enter.
In addition, if you take a moment to gaze at the outrageous maritime claims map China’s been trying to ram down the throats of Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Taiwan and recall all the little “bases” China has now established on obscure bits of rock and coral in the “South China Sea”, lots more flags.
Moving on to the subject of planting minefields and using bombs, plenty of those along the western and northern borders of Cambodia, all courtesy of China’s longtime alliance and arms supplier with the Khmer Rouge. Also in Tibet, along the border with India, in the Muslim/Turkish area on the western border of China, etc.
I won’t go into any further discussion of China arms supplies, weapons, bomb, mines, tear gas, etc going to their “brothers” in North Korea, Sudan, Libya, Serbia, Zimbabwe, Burma, Nepal, parts of India, Sri Lanka, Syria, Pakistan, etc.
Probably best just to assume and accept that any nation that becomes a “great power”, as China now is, takes on all the rest of the baggage along with the rest of them.
I am wondering if relations with China have actually become stronger lately. Many have interpreted the fall of the last PM and the lack of a key administrative position for Somsavat Lengsavat as indicating that senior politicians seen to be close to China have recently lost power in Laos. I think something else is going on but I am not exactly sure what.
Actually John, I do deal with Lao culture and Lao reactions in the full article. This is just an introduction with a few excerpts. Not that I can see a problem with focusing on Chinese immigrants – their story is interesting in its own right and I speak Chinese, not Lao.
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Thailand’s high calibre Ministry of Foreign Affairs
28 Norman
I’m not so sure about Somchai’s ‘comment’ you refer to – it would seem he’s taking the piss, so to speak. If not, the brainwashing he received from his earliest years (assuming he is actually a Thai person) has worked a treat. The latter, however, is rather improbable for if we leave aside HM and his second daughter, where does one (in private, at least) hear any genuine praise for other members of the immediate family – in particular the mother, the son, or the unfortunate Clubhornlips? Many dyed-in-the wool monarchists, not to mention a vast swathe of the general public, cannot stomach this unholy trio of skidmarks. Naturally enough most people, in the interest of self-preservation, keep such ‘treasonous’ thoughts to themselves.
And why, in heaven’s name, are you posting, at great length Pol Gen Vasit’s comments without providing any of your own? The dreaded ‘party line’ , as we’re all too aware, is already available 24/7 via all media platforms in addition to the ever stimulating, thought provoking educational system.
One also wonders who was providing all those ‘thumbs up’ in the ‘Quality comment or not’ section? More piss takers?
New Mandala’s 2011 Christmas Elves
Many, many, many happy returns to NM!
New Mandala’s 2011 Christmas Elves
That is fun. Sawadee Bi Mai.
Thailand’s high calibre Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Kerrie I don’t doubt there are many Thais who fit nicely into the categories you have described but that does not mean all do….apart from my own family I have traveled with people from Isarn (they do make up nearly one-third of Thailand’s population) through the Lao PDR and their observations and comments are not the same as those you traveled to Hoi An, Danang etc. It sounds positively horrible although quite predictable that Thais – indeed almost any group of people traveling this way – might make such comments.
Thailand’s “developed” aka “over-developed” social ecology of places such as Phuket, Trang and Koh Samui are of course not the same as what Vietnam has to offer. As I know firsthand from traveling between either Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh every week Vietnamese look upon places such as Pattaya as a mecca of sorts: most cannot afford Hua Hin.
This too is a bit off the point but I think the point I was trying to make is to avoid over-genralizing about what Thais or indeed any group of people know. The same of course applies to a person like myself because of course there are “Westerners” who read Lonley Planet Guide and become instant experts on whether they go although in their defence I sometimes think they have a more subtle understanding of many socieites and their peoples than people who work for international development agencies: this latter group of people I know a lot about.
Anyway it is matter of pride that even my 5 year old son can talk about the traffic in Hanoi or the handful of wealthy Vietnamese who can drive around in Rolls Royces and similar. In fact in a strange sort of a way I think he is learning more about inequality in Vietnam than in Thailand although in Thailand it is in your face if you want to experience it.
I hope in future you can travel with some more interesting Thais than you have in the past…..
Singapore’s inequality battle
Why must one guess that rich expats from liberal democratic societies have liberal democratic values? Liberal democracies would be fairly boring if everyone were a liberal democrat. We couldn’t be liberal democrats if we had nothing to kick against. I like that this post kicks against inequality, but dislike that it teeters on the pessimism that the Singaporean system of governance is rightfully due without, so to speak, sticking the boot in.
Thailand’s high calibre Ministry of Foreign Affairs
30 Shane
True…
People can educate their own children and encourage them through travel etc. to take an interest in the world around them. But how many Thais want/are able to do what you do? How many of the thousands who book coach tours to Vietnam see anything other than the quaint little shops in Hoi Ann, the tombs in Hue and the beach at Danang ? How many go there with the intention of learning something about the past rather than looking for and doing all things ‘sanuk’, jumping back on the coach and heading to the next place for more 5 minute photostops and ‘fun’ stuff…
I know this is going a bit off topic but I think that whilst many westerners who travel to this part of the world of try to learn something about the places they visit, when some Thai’s visit Vietnam/Laos etc. even if they do manage to venture off the little hitlist of places you mention, their visits just seem to reinforce their own sense of nationalist pride and their own ideas that Thailand and all things Thai are superior to anything and anywhere else….
For instance, here are some comments a group of Thai people who visited Danang in March/April 2011 made.
Vnams so dirty, people drop rubbish on the floor… Thailands so clean… Vnams so poor, so undeveloped, the houses are ugly, the cities have no history, the foods not tasty, its too cold (one I found hilarious since the people who visited Danang usually complained about Nan in March/April being far too hot…), there’s no culture, the beach isn’t beautiful, Phukets nicer… (me – have you ever been to Phuket? Thai person:- no, but I’ve seen pictures and it’s more beautiful and not cold and windy…) People are rude, unfriendly, they cheat you, things are expensive, there’s nothing beautiful to buy…
I could go on forever. All these people did was moan and constantly compare where they were to what things were like in Thailand. When I asked someone what they liked about Vnam they said ‘I don’t like it that much. There’s nothing interesting.’
In case you are wondering why, when they had such negative opinions the Thai group were so eager to travel there, it was a heavily subsidised trip, a ‘seuk sar do ngarn’ as government officers refer to them. The teachers and their friends, family and anyone else who wanted to go there cheaply were supposed to have been learning about Vietnam and it’s culture, but the organisers of the trip used their budget to book a standard tourist coach tour.
One of the people in the group, an English teacher asked in English how I could stay there OK, and said that I must spend every day wishing that I was back in Thailand and eating Thai food. She couldn’t understand that I enjoyed it, or the reasons why I did.
Anyway back to the (slightly off) topic…
How many people know that the history they are taught (and taught to accept without question) is at times, different to the historical narratives taught in other countries? And when there are differences, how many people try to find out and learn about alternative narratives of historical events ?
One thing I always found strange and very hard to understand during the time that I stayed in Thailand is the way that the official versions of events are believed and accepted even when people’s own personal experiences contradict what they are officially told/read in the newspapers etc…
New Mandala’s 2011 Christmas Elves
I can picture other faces.
Merry Christmas, Andrew and Nicholas. You guys are great.
Thank you very much and please keep up with your good work.
Singapore’s inequality battle
Robert, you are right about the drastically poor conditions of migrant workers in Singapore.
Unfortunately, apart from some civil society groups such as Transient Workers Count Two, the vast majority of Singaporeans are neither concerned nor outraged about these poor conditions. This apathy may be attributed, in part, to the fact that Singaporeans themselves are so preoccupied and stressed out in the inequality as discussed in this article, that they have neither the time nor the effort to care about other less fortunate people. Some Singaporeans (e.g. labour importers) even exploit these migrant workers for their financial benefit.
One small puzzle that concerns me is that the well-off expats living in Singapore, don’t seem to care much about the poor conditions of migrant workers nor the authoritarian situation in Singapore. One must guess that coming from supposedly more “liberal democratic” countries that they might have more “liberal democratic” values and concerns. Maybe it is ignorance?
Why Singapore government become like that?
Wei Ah Beng ah, you think Singapore gamen very jialat izzit? Malaysia gamen lagi kanasai lah. At least in Singapore they cannot so luan lai.
Singapore’s inequality battle
The real income inequality (and for that matter every other inequality) in Singapore is between the citizens and hi-end Expats and the millions of “temporary” workers brought in to do manual labour.
Are they part of this analysis?
I believe at this point in time there are several million of these “temporary workers” which is a very significant percentage of the working population and even the overall population.
None of them are treated very well as far as I can see in terms of working conditions, days off per month, hours worked per day, housing, civil rights, right to bring their families, become citizens, medical insurance, pensions, etc. and yet it is their labour which has built modern Singapore and also maintains modern Singapore.
The best that can be said is that they are still more than eager to come to Singapore as the conditions in their home countries are, of course, even worse, especially those from Bangladesh, Burma, Indonesia and the Philippines.
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
Sabai, my point is, I suppose, that Chinese immigrants can learn a great deal from Laos, just as Laos can learn a great deal from China. At the moment, they’re not interested, and intentionally isolate themselves, but in time that might – and hopefully will – change.
Reckoning the peace/violence ambiguity in the apostasy debate
Just like the old adage “you have to be cruel to be kind”, some people justify their oppressive actions. Just like some religious people punish their adherents in order to “save” them. But sometimes, “good intentions kill”.
Thank you Joshua, for taking the time to pen your thoughts and response in such meticulous fashion. You explain and criticise but do not condemn outright as many people do. Please continue to write such articles to inform and advise people that there are other better and acceptable ways to deal with sensitive situations such as apostasy.
Thailand’s high calibre Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Re: Jayzee #29.
That is why it is not a stretch to say that Thailand was an ally of the Third Reich during WWII. While they did not sign the Tripartite Pact, they did sign an alliance with Japan. The leader, Phibun was not installed by the Japanese, so it is not like Puyi installed in Manchukuo.
After the war, Phibun was tried as a war criminal, found guilty and executed . NOT! The Thai army brought him back from exile and made him Prime Minister again.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Does the censorship work?
A google search with “Joe Gordon” and “Thai” results in 321,000 hits.
“Uncle Sms” and “thailand” gets 669,000 hits.
“Reform lese majeste” gets 1,760,000 hits.
It doesn’t seem to be working.
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
Good for you Iain, re speaking Chinese and not Lao. Yes, as has been well documented, the Chinese are extensively in Laos. And?
A very interesting article and fantastic plug for your blog. What sort of fantastic advertisement you’re making for yourself I’m not sure, though. I hope you enjoy ‘doing’ this! Travel well, as so many have done before.
Neptunian,
Hurrah for the Chinese! They’ve learnt to be more subtle.
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
I don’t think that is quite correct, my dear Neptunian.
There are areas in northern Laos, northern Burma, southern Tibet, northeast India, along with Kyrgyzstan and the other “stans” where China has planted hundreds of thousands of Han settlers and lots of “flags”….and even some areas where the “natives” and their “dogs” are not allowed to enter.
In addition, if you take a moment to gaze at the outrageous maritime claims map China’s been trying to ram down the throats of Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Taiwan and recall all the little “bases” China has now established on obscure bits of rock and coral in the “South China Sea”, lots more flags.
Moving on to the subject of planting minefields and using bombs, plenty of those along the western and northern borders of Cambodia, all courtesy of China’s longtime alliance and arms supplier with the Khmer Rouge. Also in Tibet, along the border with India, in the Muslim/Turkish area on the western border of China, etc.
I won’t go into any further discussion of China arms supplies, weapons, bomb, mines, tear gas, etc going to their “brothers” in North Korea, Sudan, Libya, Serbia, Zimbabwe, Burma, Nepal, parts of India, Sri Lanka, Syria, Pakistan, etc.
Probably best just to assume and accept that any nation that becomes a “great power”, as China now is, takes on all the rest of the baggage along with the rest of them.
Beneath the surface bonhomie of Mekong multilateralism
I am wondering if relations with China have actually become stronger lately. Many have interpreted the fall of the last PM and the lack of a key administrative position for Somsavat Lengsavat as indicating that senior politicians seen to be close to China have recently lost power in Laos. I think something else is going on but I am not exactly sure what.
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
Well, at least the Chinese don’t;
1. Plant a flag and claim the land for the “Queen”
2. Bomb and spread thousands of land mines in the name of “containment”
Amen
Chinese merchants of Vientiane
Actually John, I do deal with Lao culture and Lao reactions in the full article. This is just an introduction with a few excerpts. Not that I can see a problem with focusing on Chinese immigrants – their story is interesting in its own right and I speak Chinese, not Lao.
New Mandala’s top ten for 2011
December posts have no chance! Penis envy!