More like threatening messages to PM’s assistant. How idiotic could you get? On the other hand, it could worth his life in exchange for unspecified amount of money by the red buffalo !
In my opinion Nick Nostitz’s analysis is pretty good though I lack his faith in Abhisit’s desire to reform or curtail the use of LM given all that has happened.
So – from saying nothing was done, the drumbeat moves into saying nothing’s even lined up to be done. Oh dear…..
Strange that Kittirat (as reported by Vichai N, anyway) made no mention of proposals as described on 9 November – see http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/265350/plan-hatched-to-revitalise-tense-nation. Note, by contrast, in that article (just 2 weeks ago) the quote from Abhisit: ” ‘It’s premature to talk about rebuilding,’ Mr Abhisit said. ‘The situation remains critical.’ “
Strange that Kittirat (as reported etc…..) made no mention of the the Strategic Committee for Reconstruction and Future Development (SCRF) headed by Virabongsa Ramangkura – see http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Action-not-words-will-restore-confidence-Kittiratt-30169537.html. That same evening (9 November), I saw Virabongsa interviewed on ThaiPBS. One of the points he made – with specific reference to Japanese investors – was finding out from the Japanese insurers exactly what they would be looking for in infrastructure (particularly flood protection) improvements to enable them to go on insuring clients with factories in Ayutthaya etc. Plainly, it’s a complex and absolutely key part of the equation that must be addressed before plans are actioned.
Now, a panel with however grand a name is not in itself a solution to anything – but to, yet again, suggest that nothing is (forgive the analogy) in the pipeline to be done is, yet again, frankly absurd. Contrary to Abhisit’s advice, the immediate and long-term futures are being very actively considered and planned-for by this government. That said, even if it were headed by Yingluck’s brother, nobody would sensibly be expecting to see a confirmed/fully-costed blueprint for every “specific measure” just yet. But perhaps Vichai is one of those who thinks – for example – that a 200km flood-way mega-project can materialise in weeks or that a myriad Thai bureaucratic fiefdoms can simply be consolidated into one super water agency overnight?
Nick, I doubt that the reason the PT party and red shirts leadership do not act against 112 has anything to do with the fear of a coup, but instead, IMHO, because the law can be useful to them, and their leader Thaksin.
His brand of governance, which so often has bordered on authoritarianism, can definitely accommodate such a law that is, on the face of it, part of a a long-standing arsenal of means to (paraphrasing Chomsky) manufacture consent, fear and self-censorship.
Obviously, the mild thai public reaction, so much in contrast with the reaction of the civilized world, but also with the cries of justice heard loud and clear during the “arab spring” this very same year, is an element never broached upon in comments, though it is the great enabling factor that helps put an old grand father in jail for 20 years over a few SMS.
Witness the numerous examples where a nation behaves in such a contrarian way that it seems nearly perverse in the defiance of external opinion. Pakistan and India, North Korea and the South, Myanmar and the world, Israel and settlements, etc.
The lese majeste issue, more and more, seems like another example. The more Thailand seemingly humiliates itself on the world stage, the more intractable Thai authorities become in pledging themselves to even more prosecutions.
Not that such a book sees publication only in hope of massive sales, but with the emotive “curse” and then content shaped to fit the twist, more attention of one sort or another is bound to follow. Such as this comment, admittedly.
The mostly banal reasons for poverty seem not to make for a cracking good read. Propose to even a deadly serious and literal-minded editor the book project “Cambodia: Still Not So Good but Getting Better”, and you’d be asked if maybe voodoo or some kind of black magic couldn’t find a place in the pages.
Shane (#27) raises an interesting theory that this Great Flood, even if the Yingluck government fails to come up with a coherent ‘flood managment master plan’, will leave the Peau Thai Party and Yingluck election popularity untouched.
Even if many foreign investors fold and run, Thai businessmen freeze their investment plans, hundreds of thousands of Thais join the unemployed . . . because Yingluck could not produce a coherent ‘flood management master plan’, the Isan people will still vote for Yingluck and Peau Thai Party while they drown.
Really? Incompetence in government is irrelevant, really? Even if that incompetence was/is responsible for loss in lives, loss in jobs, and unbearable misery?
Nah. The Isan people are NOT stupid nor truly hard core Peau Thai supporters, not if their lives could be ruined by incompetence.
For those who ]for one moment believe that the King disapproves of 112 but is helpless in the face of the brainwashed and self-interested Thai elite that he has himself created, are (in my opinion) just… well, potty.
Anyone who believes for one second that the same King was not behind the last coup, now-referred to as the ‘poison tree’ coup, is just… well, potty.
The same person is responsible for both and lies behind both as was responsible for the huge brainwashing and propaganda exercise that is post-war Thailand. The same person that was behind reviving the formerly long-abandoned tradition of grovelling on your belly in his presence.
So much for Phuea Thai and Yingluck Shinwatra, rarely has such an opportunity for some well-overdue social engineering been so recklessly squandered. Meet the new boss – same as the old boss (apologies to messrs Daltrey and Townshend).
I sometimes refer to Thais as not very bright, an observation which is repeatedly borne out by referring to the average IQ values in Thailand. When I do, I am invariably subject to a howl of protest from the PC brigade who accuse my observations as racist, no matter what the truth behind them is.
But really, does this shameful new low in Thai jurisprudential history not bear out exactly what I have said? That Thais are superstitious and not very bright souls who will never manage to struggle out of the ‘developing’ (aka undeveloped) world until they learn how to think from time to time.
And the Americans must bear a huge responsibility for the parlous state in which Thailand sits at present, they used to call themselves ‘the policemen of the free world’, the ‘leaders of the free world’, ‘land of the free and home of the brave’.
Can”t think of a single better example of what the Americans believe is the ideal population than to look at the 64 million under-educated under-achieving, not very bright but very superstitious and unbelievably gullible Thais who live in Thailand.
The government has an outright majority in Parliament. If they don’t have the balls to tackle the issue then I have little sympathy for them. There is no need to to issue a compulsive-obsessive apology for their behaviour. Rather, they deserve some stick for it.
Vichai’s friends in Korat might well be edgy but Korat is only one province in Isan – admittedly an important province – and there has been heavier than normal flooding in some other provinces (e.g. neighboring Buriram and Khon Kaen) but on my way up to my partner’s farm I did not notice flooding to have as greater impact on the wet season rice crop as it has in many areas of Central Highland.
While I admit visual inspection by myself is no substitute for evidence-driven analysis of the seasonal flooding impacts I am not untrained or unskilled in such matters and also being a trained agriculturalist who also works in the area of flood mitigation and water management. Flooding per se is not as serious issue for rural people as it is for urban people, especially when it can be managed.
But I don’t think Yingluck can be lampooned for not yet coming up with concrete plans for Korat or anywhere else for that matter. And even she cannot I am not sure in a region of Thailand where PT literally blitzed the incumbent government at the polls in July Isan people will specifically turn against Yingluck or PT. Being very unscientific here I would hazard a guess and based on a few too many bottles of lao khao that Yingluck is still very popular amongst many people in Isan.
The picture speaks a thousand words. It needs to be made the icon of lese majeste reform in Thailand and the world. This photo and the sympathy that it evokes is more threatening to the elite than a thousand vulgar posts on Facebook.
“Anyone hoping that this government will do something about the Lese Majeste law is likely to be disappointed.”
It is naive to hope that this or any elected government of Thailand is able to ‘do something about’ the lese majeste laws as the 112 laws protect the core of what the establishment considers as Thai identity. Even attempts by liberal royalists who are uncomfortable with the present use of these laws to somewhat softly reform them are futile.
We have seen under the Abhisit government, for example, that Abhisit’s many public statements that he feels that Chiranuch should not have been accused were ignored. The commission he installed to vet cases was utterly useless, and even though Abhisit has stated publicly that academic comments should not be considered as lese majeste was brought ad absurdum the army chief filed a case against Prof. Somsak.
When even a government supported by the ultra-royalist elites could not do anything, how can anybody expect that his government now, which has been continuously accused by its opponents of being anti-royalist, and whose previous incarnation has been ousted by a coup – one of the main reasons given by the coup makers was “disrespecting the monarchy” (Gen. Sonthi), can do anything regarding this issue without sparking another coup, and subsequent bloodshed?
I would also somewhat disagree with the line of argumentation that “CT” raised – that only the King personally can abolish this law. I fear that the issue is far more a structural problem within Thai state ideology, the present inability of reaching a new social compromise under the ongoing conflict as loosely represented by the colors of Red/Yellow and therefore dismisses the complexity of the game.
For both sides 112 is increasingly a center piece and symbol representing their radically opposing views on Thai society and the only legal vehicle to publicly express these positions, which in itself makes a public debate on reform of the lese majeste laws almost impossible at the present time, and which consequently leads naturally to further radicalization – a classic catch 22 situation, with possibly dire consequences in the short- and mid-term future.
Malaysia will be a Myanmar and Pakistan put together in less than 20 years from today if Malaysians, in particular, the Malays, do not wise up immediately.
I am deeply shaken by this – more than any other story that I can remember. Looking back, I think this will prove to be a seminal moment for many. All the stupidity, inanity and sheer bloodyminded lunacy of the royal establishment is embodied in this one awful and tragic event.
Vichai N Says why was he ignored completely by the Red Shirt leaders who should have provided support and a more capable lawyer.
What good are lawyers when judges make cockeyed decisions like this.
The judge said’ The prosecution could not clearly prove that the defendant was the person who sent the offensive text messages.
They found him guilty anyway.
But Vichai N is right, when it comes to lese majeste the Reds Shirts leaders and Puea Thai party are as bad as the un-democrat party.
He was born normal,
neither physically nor emotionally disabled.
He can love and be loved,
He can hate and be hated,
as an ordinary man.
In 2011,
he is still alive,
alive to see things rise and fall.
In a black and white photo before 1932,
though most men in that photo have gone,
but the undemocratic ghost,
still lives through time,
emerged unashamedly after 1932,
cruel enough to crush ordinary men into pieces.
In the portrait of truth, men died of war,
they died of natural disaster,
of crime,
of accident.
The world is dangerous.
Though my country is even more dangerous.
A man at the age of 61,
convicted of a crime,
convicted of being human,
convicted of not being disabled, physically and mentally,
convicted because he can love, and be loved,
convicted because he can hate, and be hated,
convicted of being born,
born as an ordinary man.
24 Nov 2011
[http://prachatai3.info/journal/2011/11/38016]
Deputy PM Kittirat was explaining on TV to Sorayuth and Khun Tun what the government’s response(s) will be to counter ‘second time’ and I am dismayed that the Deputy PM could not articulate any specifics that would allay my and every Thai people’s concerns. Even Khun Tun’s specific point that foreign and Thai companies that had sufferred from the inundation are in quandary (real question of foreign/Thai investors making an exodus from the unsafe industrial estates) because the Yingluck government has yet to offer concrete specific measures that address the businessmen/industry’s ‘next time’ concerns.
Irrespective of whether one likes or dislikes capitalism and those foreign investors, the point remains that those businessmen’s plans to continue or discontinue or hedge their investment/expansion/rebuilding outlays in Thailand will determine whether Thailand continues on with its merry path to growth and more jobs, or, suffer a painful brake on growth and possible shrinkage in business and job opportunities because current Thai government’s neglect and aimless response to the Great Flood issues.
My Isan friends had told me that in reality flooding had already started in Korat since March 2011 . . . then growing to the behemoth flood by October2011. It’s already December and my Isan friends are getting very edgy because they could almost smell the flood to restart again at Isan region this March2012. Edgy because Yingluck has yet to offer a clue on what she will be doing . . . if any.
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Ah Kong and his family
If things go on like this, soon Thailand might well look to Burma and Malaysia for solutions about how to democratize her politics. Bizarre…
Ah Kong and his family
Political diverse view ?
More like threatening messages to PM’s assistant. How idiotic could you get? On the other hand, it could worth his life in exchange for unspecified amount of money by the red buffalo !
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
In regards to Nick’s analysis I also think the international community and NGOs should certainly have been doing much much more to deal with this.
Silence on Da Torpedo led to this moment.
Amnesty and Zawacki can complain about this case now but Ah Kong’s imprisonment is as much on their hands as anyone else’s.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
In my opinion Nick Nostitz’s analysis is pretty good though I lack his faith in Abhisit’s desire to reform or curtail the use of LM given all that has happened.
The toll of flooding on lives and politics
c26
So – from saying nothing was done, the drumbeat moves into saying nothing’s even lined up to be done. Oh dear…..
Strange that Kittirat (as reported by Vichai N, anyway) made no mention of proposals as described on 9 November – see http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/265350/plan-hatched-to-revitalise-tense-nation. Note, by contrast, in that article (just 2 weeks ago) the quote from Abhisit: ” ‘It’s premature to talk about rebuilding,’ Mr Abhisit said. ‘The situation remains critical.’ “
Strange that Kittirat (as reported etc…..) made no mention of the the Strategic Committee for Reconstruction and Future Development (SCRF) headed by Virabongsa Ramangkura – see http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Action-not-words-will-restore-confidence-Kittiratt-30169537.html. That same evening (9 November), I saw Virabongsa interviewed on ThaiPBS. One of the points he made – with specific reference to Japanese investors – was finding out from the Japanese insurers exactly what they would be looking for in infrastructure (particularly flood protection) improvements to enable them to go on insuring clients with factories in Ayutthaya etc. Plainly, it’s a complex and absolutely key part of the equation that must be addressed before plans are actioned.
Now, a panel with however grand a name is not in itself a solution to anything – but to, yet again, suggest that nothing is (forgive the analogy) in the pipeline to be done is, yet again, frankly absurd. Contrary to Abhisit’s advice, the immediate and long-term futures are being very actively considered and planned-for by this government. That said, even if it were headed by Yingluck’s brother, nobody would sensibly be expecting to see a confirmed/fully-costed blueprint for every “specific measure” just yet. But perhaps Vichai is one of those who thinks – for example – that a 200km flood-way mega-project can materialise in weeks or that a myriad Thai bureaucratic fiefdoms can simply be consolidated into one super water agency overnight?
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Nick, I doubt that the reason the PT party and red shirts leadership do not act against 112 has anything to do with the fear of a coup, but instead, IMHO, because the law can be useful to them, and their leader Thaksin.
His brand of governance, which so often has bordered on authoritarianism, can definitely accommodate such a law that is, on the face of it, part of a a long-standing arsenal of means to (paraphrasing Chomsky) manufacture consent, fear and self-censorship.
Obviously, the mild thai public reaction, so much in contrast with the reaction of the civilized world, but also with the cries of justice heard loud and clear during the “arab spring” this very same year, is an element never broached upon in comments, though it is the great enabling factor that helps put an old grand father in jail for 20 years over a few SMS.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Nick is, I must sadly say, completely correct.
Witness the numerous examples where a nation behaves in such a contrarian way that it seems nearly perverse in the defiance of external opinion. Pakistan and India, North Korea and the South, Myanmar and the world, Israel and settlements, etc.
The lese majeste issue, more and more, seems like another example. The more Thailand seemingly humiliates itself on the world stage, the more intractable Thai authorities become in pledging themselves to even more prosecutions.
Review of Cambodia’s Curse
Not that such a book sees publication only in hope of massive sales, but with the emotive “curse” and then content shaped to fit the twist, more attention of one sort or another is bound to follow. Such as this comment, admittedly.
The mostly banal reasons for poverty seem not to make for a cracking good read. Propose to even a deadly serious and literal-minded editor the book project “Cambodia: Still Not So Good but Getting Better”, and you’d be asked if maybe voodoo or some kind of black magic couldn’t find a place in the pages.
Ah Kong and his family
It is obvious that he is a threat to nation well done Burma, oh, I forgot, this is Thailand
The toll of flooding on lives and politics
Shane (#27) raises an interesting theory that this Great Flood, even if the Yingluck government fails to come up with a coherent ‘flood managment master plan’, will leave the Peau Thai Party and Yingluck election popularity untouched.
Even if many foreign investors fold and run, Thai businessmen freeze their investment plans, hundreds of thousands of Thais join the unemployed . . . because Yingluck could not produce a coherent ‘flood management master plan’, the Isan people will still vote for Yingluck and Peau Thai Party while they drown.
Really? Incompetence in government is irrelevant, really? Even if that incompetence was/is responsible for loss in lives, loss in jobs, and unbearable misery?
Nah. The Isan people are NOT stupid nor truly hard core Peau Thai supporters, not if their lives could be ruined by incompetence.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
hmmm…
Its ‘bucket of cold water’ time folx..
For those who ]for one moment believe that the King disapproves of 112 but is helpless in the face of the brainwashed and self-interested Thai elite that he has himself created, are (in my opinion) just… well, potty.
Anyone who believes for one second that the same King was not behind the last coup, now-referred to as the ‘poison tree’ coup, is just… well, potty.
The same person is responsible for both and lies behind both as was responsible for the huge brainwashing and propaganda exercise that is post-war Thailand. The same person that was behind reviving the formerly long-abandoned tradition of grovelling on your belly in his presence.
So much for Phuea Thai and Yingluck Shinwatra, rarely has such an opportunity for some well-overdue social engineering been so recklessly squandered. Meet the new boss – same as the old boss (apologies to messrs Daltrey and Townshend).
I sometimes refer to Thais as not very bright, an observation which is repeatedly borne out by referring to the average IQ values in Thailand. When I do, I am invariably subject to a howl of protest from the PC brigade who accuse my observations as racist, no matter what the truth behind them is.
But really, does this shameful new low in Thai jurisprudential history not bear out exactly what I have said? That Thais are superstitious and not very bright souls who will never manage to struggle out of the ‘developing’ (aka undeveloped) world until they learn how to think from time to time.
And the Americans must bear a huge responsibility for the parlous state in which Thailand sits at present, they used to call themselves ‘the policemen of the free world’, the ‘leaders of the free world’, ‘land of the free and home of the brave’.
Can”t think of a single better example of what the Americans believe is the ideal population than to look at the 64 million under-educated under-achieving, not very bright but very superstitious and unbelievably gullible Thais who live in Thailand.
Well done Uncle Sam.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
“Nick Nostitz”
The government has an outright majority in Parliament. If they don’t have the balls to tackle the issue then I have little sympathy for them. There is no need to to issue a compulsive-obsessive apology for their behaviour. Rather, they deserve some stick for it.
The toll of flooding on lives and politics
Vichai’s friends in Korat might well be edgy but Korat is only one province in Isan – admittedly an important province – and there has been heavier than normal flooding in some other provinces (e.g. neighboring Buriram and Khon Kaen) but on my way up to my partner’s farm I did not notice flooding to have as greater impact on the wet season rice crop as it has in many areas of Central Highland.
While I admit visual inspection by myself is no substitute for evidence-driven analysis of the seasonal flooding impacts I am not untrained or unskilled in such matters and also being a trained agriculturalist who also works in the area of flood mitigation and water management. Flooding per se is not as serious issue for rural people as it is for urban people, especially when it can be managed.
But I don’t think Yingluck can be lampooned for not yet coming up with concrete plans for Korat or anywhere else for that matter. And even she cannot I am not sure in a region of Thailand where PT literally blitzed the incumbent government at the polls in July Isan people will specifically turn against Yingluck or PT. Being very unscientific here I would hazard a guess and based on a few too many bottles of lao khao that Yingluck is still very popular amongst many people in Isan.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
The picture speaks a thousand words. It needs to be made the icon of lese majeste reform in Thailand and the world. This photo and the sympathy that it evokes is more threatening to the elite than a thousand vulgar posts on Facebook.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
“Simon”:
“Anyone hoping that this government will do something about the Lese Majeste law is likely to be disappointed.”
It is naive to hope that this or any elected government of Thailand is able to ‘do something about’ the lese majeste laws as the 112 laws protect the core of what the establishment considers as Thai identity. Even attempts by liberal royalists who are uncomfortable with the present use of these laws to somewhat softly reform them are futile.
We have seen under the Abhisit government, for example, that Abhisit’s many public statements that he feels that Chiranuch should not have been accused were ignored. The commission he installed to vet cases was utterly useless, and even though Abhisit has stated publicly that academic comments should not be considered as lese majeste was brought ad absurdum the army chief filed a case against Prof. Somsak.
When even a government supported by the ultra-royalist elites could not do anything, how can anybody expect that his government now, which has been continuously accused by its opponents of being anti-royalist, and whose previous incarnation has been ousted by a coup – one of the main reasons given by the coup makers was “disrespecting the monarchy” (Gen. Sonthi), can do anything regarding this issue without sparking another coup, and subsequent bloodshed?
I would also somewhat disagree with the line of argumentation that “CT” raised – that only the King personally can abolish this law. I fear that the issue is far more a structural problem within Thai state ideology, the present inability of reaching a new social compromise under the ongoing conflict as loosely represented by the colors of Red/Yellow and therefore dismisses the complexity of the game.
For both sides 112 is increasingly a center piece and symbol representing their radically opposing views on Thai society and the only legal vehicle to publicly express these positions, which in itself makes a public debate on reform of the lese majeste laws almost impossible at the present time, and which consequently leads naturally to further radicalization – a classic catch 22 situation, with possibly dire consequences in the short- and mid-term future.
Malaysia – Defending the Constitution
Malaysia will be a Myanmar and Pakistan put together in less than 20 years from today if Malaysians, in particular, the Malays, do not wise up immediately.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
I am deeply shaken by this – more than any other story that I can remember. Looking back, I think this will prove to be a seminal moment for many. All the stupidity, inanity and sheer bloodyminded lunacy of the royal establishment is embodied in this one awful and tragic event.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
Vichai N Says why was he ignored completely by the Red Shirt leaders who should have provided support and a more capable lawyer.
What good are lawyers when judges make cockeyed decisions like this.
The judge said’ The prosecution could not clearly prove that the defendant was the person who sent the offensive text messages.
They found him guilty anyway.
But Vichai N is right, when it comes to lese majeste the Reds Shirts leaders and Puea Thai party are as bad as the un-democrat party.
Thailand’s latest lese majeste disgrace
“A man who is made disabled at the age of 61”
Duanwad Phimwana
He was born normal,
neither physically nor emotionally disabled.
He can love and be loved,
He can hate and be hated,
as an ordinary man.
In 2011,
he is still alive,
alive to see things rise and fall.
In a black and white photo before 1932,
though most men in that photo have gone,
but the undemocratic ghost,
still lives through time,
emerged unashamedly after 1932,
cruel enough to crush ordinary men into pieces.
In the portrait of truth, men died of war,
they died of natural disaster,
of crime,
of accident.
The world is dangerous.
Though my country is even more dangerous.
A man at the age of 61,
convicted of a crime,
convicted of being human,
convicted of not being disabled, physically and mentally,
convicted because he can love, and be loved,
convicted because he can hate, and be hated,
convicted of being born,
born as an ordinary man.
24 Nov 2011
[http://prachatai3.info/journal/2011/11/38016]
The toll of flooding on lives and politics
Deputy PM Kittirat was explaining on TV to Sorayuth and Khun Tun what the government’s response(s) will be to counter ‘second time’ and I am dismayed that the Deputy PM could not articulate any specifics that would allay my and every Thai people’s concerns. Even Khun Tun’s specific point that foreign and Thai companies that had sufferred from the inundation are in quandary (real question of foreign/Thai investors making an exodus from the unsafe industrial estates) because the Yingluck government has yet to offer concrete specific measures that address the businessmen/industry’s ‘next time’ concerns.
Irrespective of whether one likes or dislikes capitalism and those foreign investors, the point remains that those businessmen’s plans to continue or discontinue or hedge their investment/expansion/rebuilding outlays in Thailand will determine whether Thailand continues on with its merry path to growth and more jobs, or, suffer a painful brake on growth and possible shrinkage in business and job opportunities because current Thai government’s neglect and aimless response to the Great Flood issues.
My Isan friends had told me that in reality flooding had already started in Korat since March 2011 . . . then growing to the behemoth flood by October2011. It’s already December and my Isan friends are getting very edgy because they could almost smell the flood to restart again at Isan region this March2012. Edgy because Yingluck has yet to offer a clue on what she will be doing . . . if any.