What I mean was dont’t expect too much from the people that backing the royalist.
Billy Budd – 19
Yes the man has done well indeed, from being merely a royal in exile he can get rid of most of his political enemy, rally all the franction within the palance and killed off the franction that got too powerful. Now even talking about him will face a jail term.
Senator Mitch McConnell is the leader of the Republican Party in the US Senate. There is a good chance he will become Senate Majority Leader in 2012. US has a shared system of government and Senator McConnell may dictate US Burma policy next year.
It is therefore important to note Senator McConnell’s speech on the floor of the US Senate titled ” Kachins contributions to Allies in WW2 and current events (Oct 12,2011)” posted on http://www.kachinnews.com
High level lobbying has begun to help our Kachin Ally which is now subjected to unilateral and unprovoked attacks by SLORC/SPDC while the Burmese generals renew their ceasefire with China’s proxy army, UWSA, in occupied Burma.
Like in Suharto’s Indonesia, restoration of freedom and democracy in Burma will be precipitated by anti-Chinese riots. Unfortunately, ASSK/NLD has become a NGO and cannot legally participate in Burmese politics.
Themis 18
I am inclined to agree with you. Should any of us have lived the experience of the early years of the current monarch in a politically fractious nation what actions would we have taken for self-protection?
It was a tightrope walk for a young and inexperienced man, “a stranger in a strange land”. I think given the restrictions of the role he did a good job in difficult circumstances and world history will have it’s judgement.
Unfortunately we are living in interesting times and the nation is suffering significant blowback from it’s fin de siecle power games with the persecution of both thought and speech.
Dundun 17
No apologies for the eccentric and cheeky input. Read the small print on the website, embrace your inner 7 year old as I do daily and troll down to the DVD store. It’s a great show, mate!
This last episode is indeed the best one, while the proceeding ones were more or less off the topic or at least off expectations. To use the national motto was maybe not the best idea – “State of the Kingdom Talks” might have been a title more appropriate to cover the content.
One thing that is striking is the lack of historical consciousness for the deviating nature of the current monarchical environment. There was a time when a journalist like K.S.R. Kulap could write and publish a satire accusing King Rama 5th of making serious mistakes while dealing with colonial powers, and he was sent to hospital for “mental treatment” for some days or weeks only. I assume such a lenient reaction was possible because King Chulalongkorn was indeed popular and could count on genuine affection of the Thai people.
How different is this from the experience of a young Head of State who, while leaving the ship from Europe on his return to Thailand is presented with a coup d’état by the military and a constitution that is effectively curbing the influence of the palace clique?!? Every bit of influence ces gens l├а have gained during the Sarit regime and afterwards is a booty assembled through competition with all other groups vying for power, influence and resources. It is this permanent state of fear to lose all this again (somewhat justified considering the (occasional) abolition of the monarchy in Laos and Cambodia) that probably makes this group so uncompromising and so responsive to forces that claim to defend its interests.
People accustomed to such conditions must perceive every approach onto their turf or their alleged prerogatives as a vital threat.
Even this last episode was rather lame in its outlook. Of course, for all those prosecuted under draconian laws right now, it is important that they be freed. Nevertheless, if the problem of societal ferment is to be tackled, then there ought to be a more positive vision for the future of the institution, beyond just negative acts of abrogation, reduction, restriction and disclosure. It might be more useful (and palatable) to formulate an objective, a target for a modern monarchy that fits in into the 26th century. I┬┤m sure there are enough academics around who are able to couch this into a pseudo-sukhothaian cloak…
I never said that there aren’t those who would not agree with many of the opinions expressed in the podcast. I merely stated that in my opinion that I thought the podcast was a refreshing, intelligent and well informed discussion on a difficult and precarious topic.
I agree with your statement that the monarchy are political players. I think – after you examine the situation enough – that this is obvious. I also wonder about the political affiliations of the princess/prince/queen lie.
No, symbiotic is the correct term. A commensual relationship is one in which one party benefits where the other is neutral and does not benefit. This is not the case here: the relationship between the monarchy and the Thai army is indeed symbiotic.
I cannot say I have had the pleasure of watching “Finding Nemo”, but it does indeed sound like an enchanting satire of contemporary Thai society and politics. I’ll watch it next time I’m bored and seven years old.
I misspelt ‘monarchy’, not academic. Yet call me crazy, but I would prefer and excuse a typo over an elaborately silly trivialization of statements made at a place I thought was for serious debate and discussion.
Billy, if you’re fishing for a reaction, you got one. Well done. I know it is quite a giddy thrill to troll web forums, but by doing so here you not only make a fool of yourself but belittle the topic at hand. The latter I believe is a grave error, the former merely an inconsequential annoyance.
Oh, and it’s spelt ‘shark bait’.
I look forward to your Harvard University Press publication.
There were people who would be totally disagree with all of the opinion in the podcast, in exception of maybe of Prof. Chanvit. However, those view will not be so critical. Ususally, they will just come in and said something like “what do foreigners know about Thailand” sort of stance.
Back to the podcast, all of the guess seems to be looking into one direction except Charnvit in my opinion, who was talking about monarchy being a part of building a “modern nation” and being the “center” of the nation (if that’s what he means) then I can see a huge irony there. Thailand is far from being modern, our law is ambiguous and people still retort to using violence to settle things. The lese majeste law was so backward and it was threating the fabric of what is called a civilized nation.
One might ask, what have we been doing in the past 60 years under this currecnt monarch?
Furthermore, Prof Charnvit was talking as if people was “using manarchy” to their own benefit, but I can only see monarchy themselves as another player in the current political struggle. We can see how the member of the royal family involved with certain political group like the queen and the youngest princess who is clearly where their politocal ideology lies.
I do have pdf files of both Dr.Chris Baker’s translation and the original Thai version that I published which Dr.Baker uses, together with my own commentary/introduction I published at the same time as the Thai original. I could upload them all for NM readers, except that I’m not sure about any copyright infringement, particularly in regard to Dr.Baker’s translation which, I presume, is held by the Journal.
Dundun 4
” This relationship is a highly symbiotic one”
According to my “Finding Nemo” DVD a relationship such as you describe would perhaps be better described as “commensual” rather than “symbiotic”. This difference is also an interesting subject for accademic discussion. (Is that how you spell it?)
To continue the analogy Dory the Blue Tang could represent historical-political consciousness.
For me Dr T is the Barracuda or Bruce the Shark. Haven’t made my mind up yet.
Would any care to cast Gill or the camp starfish?
Please note this thesis is a work in progress. I am in discussions with Harvard University Press and expect to publish in 2013.
Sharkbait – Boo Ha-Ha!
That is very useful. Thanks for sharing. As you say, this proves one of the accounts provided by the KNG and others.
As a warning to New Mandala readers I should note that there are parts of this video which are very graphic and confronting. But for those wanting an impression of the current war between the Kachin Independence Army and Burmese government forces it is a good place to start. There are quick discussions with tatmadaw prisoners; surveys of the carnage after the ambush; and efforts to account for all of the seized equipment, weapons etc. Personal photos are also shown.
New Mandala readers wanting to examine this issue in more detail will also want to look at this Kachin Independence Army battle video from the early 1990s.
No body would win this war, but the kachin and all other ethnic people and Barma people are loosing their love one for the seek for Generals in Naypyidaw. Four cuts policy are already in place.
We need International urgent responses.
As Zarganar just said, ‘NATO’ No Action, Talk Only and Wait and See policy from the International communities would not help either.
Those New Mandala readers following these issues will want to see the most recent KIA battle reports. The details are here and here. Both episodes of combat seem to have left large numbers of Burmese troops dead.
Goodness Dan, Amsterdam did mention floods and getting his feet wet. I suspect that he carefully and accurately assessed the topics you mention he might face more LM charges.
The cost is a charge that is common amongst academic publishers and seems unnecessarily high. As co-editor of the Journal of Contemporary Asia, I am sure that many academics have access via libraries and if you know one, get it from them, If you are stuck for a copy, email me at khewison at unc. edu
Why are these Burmese always begging and cheating to kachin people? they think they are smart, then why don’t they eat their own food and stay in their own land? I hate these Burmese***
The partial analysis, regardless of how much it costs to purchase the complete thing (and thanks are due to Nich for providing some of it) , seems pretty true to me.
I’m not a Thai and Vichai is. However, it is the most presumptuous arrogance on his part to define the priorities of the Thai people as a whole and it is a piece of sheer and despicable opportunism to use the flood tragedy to do so.
Perhaps Amsterdam would also like to talk about those who slash-&-burn forests, build shoddy developments that impede natural drainage, put major housing & industrial estates in slightly earthed over paddies. and build thin-skinned flood defenses as a mean to fill their pockets. Pull your finger out Robert! You haven’t even remotely got your feet wet yet.
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Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Dundun – 17
What I mean was dont’t expect too much from the people that backing the royalist.
Billy Budd – 19
Yes the man has done well indeed, from being merely a royal in exile he can get rid of most of his political enemy, rally all the franction within the palance and killed off the franction that got too powerful. Now even talking about him will face a jail term.
One observation, ten questions and much to ponder about the new Kachin war
Senator Mitch McConnell is the leader of the Republican Party in the US Senate. There is a good chance he will become Senate Majority Leader in 2012. US has a shared system of government and Senator McConnell may dictate US Burma policy next year.
It is therefore important to note Senator McConnell’s speech on the floor of the US Senate titled ” Kachins contributions to Allies in WW2 and current events (Oct 12,2011)” posted on http://www.kachinnews.com
High level lobbying has begun to help our Kachin Ally which is now subjected to unilateral and unprovoked attacks by SLORC/SPDC while the Burmese generals renew their ceasefire with China’s proxy army, UWSA, in occupied Burma.
Like in Suharto’s Indonesia, restoration of freedom and democracy in Burma will be precipitated by anti-Chinese riots. Unfortunately, ASSK/NLD has become a NGO and cannot legally participate in Burmese politics.
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Themis 18
I am inclined to agree with you. Should any of us have lived the experience of the early years of the current monarch in a politically fractious nation what actions would we have taken for self-protection?
It was a tightrope walk for a young and inexperienced man, “a stranger in a strange land”. I think given the restrictions of the role he did a good job in difficult circumstances and world history will have it’s judgement.
Unfortunately we are living in interesting times and the nation is suffering significant blowback from it’s fin de siecle power games with the persecution of both thought and speech.
Dundun 17
No apologies for the eccentric and cheeky input. Read the small print on the website, embrace your inner 7 year old as I do daily and troll down to the DVD store. It’s a great show, mate!
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
This last episode is indeed the best one, while the proceeding ones were more or less off the topic or at least off expectations. To use the national motto was maybe not the best idea – “State of the Kingdom Talks” might have been a title more appropriate to cover the content.
One thing that is striking is the lack of historical consciousness for the deviating nature of the current monarchical environment. There was a time when a journalist like K.S.R. Kulap could write and publish a satire accusing King Rama 5th of making serious mistakes while dealing with colonial powers, and he was sent to hospital for “mental treatment” for some days or weeks only. I assume such a lenient reaction was possible because King Chulalongkorn was indeed popular and could count on genuine affection of the Thai people.
How different is this from the experience of a young Head of State who, while leaving the ship from Europe on his return to Thailand is presented with a coup d’état by the military and a constitution that is effectively curbing the influence of the palace clique?!? Every bit of influence ces gens l├а have gained during the Sarit regime and afterwards is a booty assembled through competition with all other groups vying for power, influence and resources. It is this permanent state of fear to lose all this again (somewhat justified considering the (occasional) abolition of the monarchy in Laos and Cambodia) that probably makes this group so uncompromising and so responsive to forces that claim to defend its interests.
People accustomed to such conditions must perceive every approach onto their turf or their alleged prerogatives as a vital threat.
Even this last episode was rather lame in its outlook. Of course, for all those prosecuted under draconian laws right now, it is important that they be freed. Nevertheless, if the problem of societal ferment is to be tackled, then there ought to be a more positive vision for the future of the institution, beyond just negative acts of abrogation, reduction, restriction and disclosure. It might be more useful (and palatable) to formulate an objective, a target for a modern monarchy that fits in into the 26th century. I┬┤m sure there are enough academics around who are able to couch this into a pseudo-sukhothaian cloak…
The emphemeral mandala
Great! Thanks
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Tarrin – 15
I never said that there aren’t those who would not agree with many of the opinions expressed in the podcast. I merely stated that in my opinion that I thought the podcast was a refreshing, intelligent and well informed discussion on a difficult and precarious topic.
I agree with your statement that the monarchy are political players. I think – after you examine the situation enough – that this is obvious. I also wonder about the political affiliations of the princess/prince/queen lie.
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Billy,
No, symbiotic is the correct term. A commensual relationship is one in which one party benefits where the other is neutral and does not benefit. This is not the case here: the relationship between the monarchy and the Thai army is indeed symbiotic.
I cannot say I have had the pleasure of watching “Finding Nemo”, but it does indeed sound like an enchanting satire of contemporary Thai society and politics. I’ll watch it next time I’m bored and seven years old.
I misspelt ‘monarchy’, not academic. Yet call me crazy, but I would prefer and excuse a typo over an elaborately silly trivialization of statements made at a place I thought was for serious debate and discussion.
Billy, if you’re fishing for a reaction, you got one. Well done. I know it is quite a giddy thrill to troll web forums, but by doing so here you not only make a fool of yourself but belittle the topic at hand. The latter I believe is a grave error, the former merely an inconsequential annoyance.
Oh, and it’s spelt ‘shark bait’.
I look forward to your Harvard University Press publication.
Happy fishing.
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Dundun – 13
There were people who would be totally disagree with all of the opinion in the podcast, in exception of maybe of Prof. Chanvit. However, those view will not be so critical. Ususally, they will just come in and said something like “what do foreigners know about Thailand” sort of stance.
Back to the podcast, all of the guess seems to be looking into one direction except Charnvit in my opinion, who was talking about monarchy being a part of building a “modern nation” and being the “center” of the nation (if that’s what he means) then I can see a huge irony there. Thailand is far from being modern, our law is ambiguous and people still retort to using violence to settle things. The lese majeste law was so backward and it was threating the fabric of what is called a civilized nation.
One might ask, what have we been doing in the past 60 years under this currecnt monarch?
Furthermore, Prof Charnvit was talking as if people was “using manarchy” to their own benefit, but I can only see monarchy themselves as another player in the current political struggle. We can see how the member of the royal family involved with certain political group like the queen and the youngest princess who is clearly where their politocal ideology lies.
Starting point: Thailand in 1932
I do have pdf files of both Dr.Chris Baker’s translation and the original Thai version that I published which Dr.Baker uses, together with my own commentary/introduction I published at the same time as the Thai original. I could upload them all for NM readers, except that I’m not sure about any copyright infringement, particularly in regard to Dr.Baker’s translation which, I presume, is held by the Journal.
Nation, Religion, King – Episode 3
Dundun 4
” This relationship is a highly symbiotic one”
According to my “Finding Nemo” DVD a relationship such as you describe would perhaps be better described as “commensual” rather than “symbiotic”. This difference is also an interesting subject for accademic discussion. (Is that how you spell it?)
To continue the analogy Dory the Blue Tang could represent historical-political consciousness.
For me Dr T is the Barracuda or Bruce the Shark. Haven’t made my mind up yet.
Would any care to cast Gill or the camp starfish?
Please note this thesis is a work in progress. I am in discussions with Harvard University Press and expect to publish in 2013.
Sharkbait – Boo Ha-Ha!
One observation, ten questions and much to ponder about the new Kachin war
Thanks Hkanhpa,
That is very useful. Thanks for sharing. As you say, this proves one of the accounts provided by the KNG and others.
As a warning to New Mandala readers I should note that there are parts of this video which are very graphic and confronting. But for those wanting an impression of the current war between the Kachin Independence Army and Burmese government forces it is a good place to start. There are quick discussions with tatmadaw prisoners; surveys of the carnage after the ambush; and efforts to account for all of the seized equipment, weapons etc. Personal photos are also shown.
New Mandala readers wanting to examine this issue in more detail will also want to look at this Kachin Independence Army battle video from the early 1990s.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
One observation, ten questions and much to ponder about the new Kachin war
Dear Nich,
Have a look at this video clip about the KIA ambushed a column of Burma Army on 16.07.11, it proved the numbers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFaqSy2bHXk
Here is another video clip about kachin IDP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stAkotvy-u8
No body would win this war, but the kachin and all other ethnic people and Barma people are loosing their love one for the seek for Generals in Naypyidaw. Four cuts policy are already in place.
We need International urgent responses.
As Zarganar just said, ‘NATO’ No Action, Talk Only and Wait and See policy from the International communities would not help either.
One observation, ten questions and much to ponder about the new Kachin war
Those New Mandala readers following these issues will want to see the most recent KIA battle reports. The details are here and here. Both episodes of combat seem to have left large numbers of Burmese troops dead.
Nich
Amsterdam in Bangkok
Goodness Dan, Amsterdam did mention floods and getting his feet wet. I suspect that he carefully and accurately assessed the topics you mention he might face more LM charges.
Starting point: Thailand in 1932
The cost is a charge that is common amongst academic publishers and seems unnecessarily high. As co-editor of the Journal of Contemporary Asia, I am sure that many academics have access via libraries and if you know one, get it from them, If you are stuck for a copy, email me at khewison at unc. edu
Myitkyina attacked, war continues
Why are these Burmese always begging and cheating to kachin people? they think they are smart, then why don’t they eat their own food and stay in their own land? I hate these Burmese***
Starting point: Thailand in 1932
The partial analysis, regardless of how much it costs to purchase the complete thing (and thanks are due to Nich for providing some of it) , seems pretty true to me.
Amsterdam in Bangkok
I’m not a Thai and Vichai is. However, it is the most presumptuous arrogance on his part to define the priorities of the Thai people as a whole and it is a piece of sheer and despicable opportunism to use the flood tragedy to do so.
Amsterdam in Bangkok
Perhaps Amsterdam would also like to talk about those who slash-&-burn forests, build shoddy developments that impede natural drainage, put major housing & industrial estates in slightly earthed over paddies. and build thin-skinned flood defenses as a mean to fill their pockets. Pull your finger out Robert! You haven’t even remotely got your feet wet yet.
Floods, hacks and the Nitirat effect
Bangkok Pundit has taken up the comments of Smith Dharmasarojana.