So is it real political choice or just truckshop brand loyalty? I see no point in trying to put rouge lipstick on what is still basically an amaart pig.
[On a more lighthearted note] I am Asian and I find myself wanting to take photos of my food too, resist as I might. I attribute it to what my British colleagues call my “extreme criticalness of food”. It’s just a natural extension that you want physical evidence of how well or poorly it is done.
John Smith, I don’t think it is an ideological battle, and I don’t think I have ever portayed it in those terms. I think it is about very pragmatic and practical politics. When you encouraged me to spend a year in Wang Nam Yen I thought you were encouraging me to get to know the local political situation. Now you seem to be saying that such an understanding is not necessary, because anyone who has studied populist movements would already know the answers. I can completely understand your political choice. But I also want to be able to understand the choices of others. So, can you give us some information about why the people in the area you are familiar with vote the way they do? AW
This is not an ideological battle, it is a battle of elites, and one must choose which one you prefer to run Thailand. My choice of not supporting Thaksin and his fake populist fa├зade is based on the fact that few, if any, populist movements have ended in anything other than corruption, suppression of any dissent, and ultimately tragedy for the very people that were supposedly to benefit as their leaders betrayed them for self gain.
So the Democrat Party didn’t have a ‘fake populist fa├зade’?
Also, when you write a simplistic, blindly confident narrative like “Thaksin and his TRT was a blatant attempt to subvert the checks and balances written into the 1997 Constitution by using the rural godfathers to gain and hold a majority in Parliament and turn Thailand into a UNMO style single party government that would rule for generations”, and expect it to hold up righteously, I think it’s a bit rich for you to cry foul on feeling patronized. Maybe if you feel so passionately about this, you should write a paper and submit it to a peer reviewed academic ‘echo chamber’ journal where you can be patronized properly, survive and live to tell the tale.
Andrew #37.
Andrew #37.
I find your response condescending to the point of being patronizing as you know the answer and anyone that has studied populist movements such as the Louisiana Longs and the TRT know it.
You are avoiding addressing my main point that rather than being some sort of movement to “draw state power into local circuits of exchange by means of diverse, informal and pragmatic relationships”, Thaksin and his TRT was a blatant attempt to subvert the checks and balances written into the 1997 Constitution by using the rural godfathers to gain and hold a majority in Parliament and turn Thailand into a UNMO style single party government that would rule for generations.
This is not an ideological battle, it is a battle of elites, and one must choose which one you prefer to run Thailand. My choice of not supporting Thaksin and his fake populist fa├зade is based on the fact that few, if any, populist movements have ended in anything other than corruption, suppression of any dissent, and ultimately tragedy for the very people that were supposedly to benefit as their leaders betrayed them for self gain.
Yes, what are national universities but giant expert stroking societies? Some even like to be whipped. Depends what floats your boat. It’s very naughty, really. And experts like it that way!
Yes, they alter arguments for papers as though they’re newspaper articles. Because – with all the stroking and whipping going on, there’s no time for academic writing! Only time for a brief missive to be slapped into a journal.
Yes, I don’t see how they can be taken seriously. Most academics have been stroked and whipped to the point where they’re big jokers. It’s the best way to deal with the trauma of being a P ermanent H ead D amage sufferer it seems.
So given academics penchant for being jokers, I think you’re in danger of not being taken seriously. You are, after all, doing exactly what you are saying cannot happen on New Mandala. Is New Mandala an echo-sauna-massage chamber?
In response, the Nitirat group of law professors have invited all media including Thai Post editors for a debate at the Thammasat Faculty of Law today (Sunday) afternoon.
This extension forum from the previous weekend, marking Nitirat’s first anniversary in addition to the fifth year of the coup, is no doubt a lucrative gathering of audiences with democratic mind. With a very limited knowledge of public laws, I found the session very educational, informative, and very relevant to the Thai current political affairs.
Dr Somsak’s presence as a part of the audience was a big plus. He was still straight forward and consistent on his trademark ‘root cause’ issues as usual. It was nice to see him out debating again after an agonizing time when he took a seat as a panelist himself at this very same venue on a Constitutional day of last year.
As a final remark, I second strongly Dr Walker’s both viewpoints in the opening texts which read:
(1) Thaksin Shinawatra is now in a stronger political position than he would have been if the coup had not taken place; and (2) the coup, and the subsequent toppling of the pro-Thaksin government elected at the end of 2007, has greatly reduced the authority of the monarchy.
You can safely say those MIs are victims of a purge and they are in jail.
Arguably they can be classed as political prisoners according to Amnesty’s definition of prisoners of conscience, see other status. Interesting their brother officers in parliament were willing and prepared to take up their cause. Not sure which one it was Tallyrand or de Tocqueville who said, “a reforming govt is at its most vulnerable”. Even a bogus glasnost & perestroika can potentially unravel the whole thing.
As for sanctions, plan B’s statistical evidence or the lack of it is neither here nor there. Burma’s govt has never known such wealth in its own coffers as in recent times. Offshore gas syphoned off to foreign markets continues to be a gold mine (tax collection has never been an efficient part of the bureaucratic machine in our history). Nor have we known $ billionaires in the past. So things are most definitely on the up for some. Why then does it not trickle down to public sector services such as health, education and transport? It’s the political will, stupid! Aid shouldn’t come into it to a crucial degree as plan B alleges. I bet he knows.
1) 50+ millions of humanity/Citizenry ( Karen, Chin as well as other ethnicity) Yes, ALL the political prisoners as well.
2) Unelected government!
3) INCOMPETENT opposition!
Using Political prisoners and the atrocities against selective ethnic groups, conveniently to make the case for sanction while neglecting the rest of the 50+millions no longer wash.
“Who control most of the mega businesses and export sector in Burma?
Junta and its cronies.
So, does sanction hurts ordinary people?
No.”
At least another admission of the generals and cronies doing well.
Need I say any more about the incompetency of opposition.
Junta doing well and ordinary people is not hurting.
Hmm
Twisted logic imply Junta= Ordinary people.
@26
“whether those MIs meet the definition of your own phrase, ‘jailed victims’, first.”
ALL Myanmar citizenry is currently unwitting victims of # 2 and the political prisoners are the faults of #2 and #3.
Please do not EVER equate the plight of the citizenry with the misfortune of the resulting incompetent opposition.
I did see why sanction is any way justifiable in Myanmar case.
At this point the only case one can make is:
“If not for sanction the generals might behave even worst.”
I’ll skip the part about being called a dog and cut to the chase… what’s the point in having conversations among the “experts” in their echo chamber?
Is this what national universities are funded for? Mutual expert stroking societies?
It sounds as though the argument is to allow enough water to flow under the bridge to allow the “exports” to “fine-tune” their talks to agree with the outcomes they’ve “predicted”… after the fact.
I don’t see how they can be taken seriously. I hope they don’t all have accidents driving with their eyes glued to their rear-view mirrors. More to the point, I hope no one else is hurt when they do.
Another never ending argument with flowery words which is not suitable for the people with little English like me.
Is sanction really hurts?
Let me breakdown this down in simple equations.
Who control most of the mega businesses and export sector in Burma?
Junta and its cronies.
So, does sanction hurts ordinary people?
No.
Does all businesses and production processes employ Burmese citizens which gives them some opportunities?
Yes.
So, does sanction hurts ordinary people?
Yes.
Does the wealth of junta and its cronies dripping back to its citizens?
No.
So, does sanction needed to be in place?
Yes.
Does sanction effective?
No.
Does Burma needs engagement?
Yes.
So, does sanction should be in place?
No.
I believed that this problem would not go away as long as the major players in Burma issue keep concentrating on ‘what happening’ instead of trying to know ‘why things are happening that way’.
However, I do not expect anyone would listen to me.
The right-wing Thai Post daily called Nitirat group as Niti Red and condemned it as pro-red. In response, the Nitirat group of law professors have invited all media including Thai Post editors for a debate at the Thammasat Faculty of Law today (Sunday) afternoon.
This is the group’s website: http://www.enlightened-jurists.com/
Whether the right-wing media would come to attend is still unclear. If Abhisit refuses to attend, it is no surprise as he feels secure only when surrounded by military bodyguards.
‘nobody truly know, the exact income or expenditures of anything, within Myanmar due to the lack of or availability of records’.
ALL present Myanmar’s expenditures in everything is just GUESSTIMATE!
Whom you believe make you the supporter of that party assertions/villainy.
Yet reports/propaganda exists in print, roughly translate as:
“The record of advancement during the government of Tamadaw.” (1988 – 31.12. 2008) 412 pages.
Readily available in AVA book store on Sule Pagoda Road, Yangon.
If the government is to be trusted, then it will make ALL the guesstimates appear ridiculous just by looking at the salaries of 2 aspects: # of teachers, and others related to the education and Healthcare.
The conventional wisdom will dictate that:
The actual expenditure, in every aspects towards citizenry’s well beings, is more than every anti generals alleged and definitely less than the generals might like to claim.
Plainly, NOT ENOUGH even by this present government own admission, % or otherwise.
Myanmar has always needed help in Education, Healthcare as well as other supports, even in the best of time. Available even during equally atrocious Ne Win’s era.
Sanctions terminated almost every aspects for 1 generation of Myanmar citizenry.
Will you or anyone care to Guesstimate so boldly, what % of that, contribute to further the degradation of citizenry Education and Healthcare and all related tragedies as did for vilifying purpose?
Righteously curse the generals however let’s not ignore the compounded sufferings imposed on the citizenry.
Re-litigating all the false info out there, that neglect the plight of victims of this tragic episode, becoming even more tragic with continuing villainy from all sides.
The Malaysian Communications and Multimedia Commission (MCMC) today defended its decision to ban the “Undilah” music video, which promotes the right to vote.
The commission’s chairman, Khalid Ramli, said his office directed local TV stations not to air the video because the Film Censorship Board had not cleared it.
“Anything at all is subjected to the film censorship authority,” Khalid told FMT. “We are merely saying that the video had no clearance from the board and therefore cannot be aired.”
A group of social activists involved in BERSIH 2.0 has put together a bilingual book based on the collection of eyewitness accounts of what Malaysians really experienced at the Bersih 2.0 rally of 9/7/11.
Andrew (9). It sounds as if you would support publishing the conference abstracts on the Web now, though the more polished work will clearly take longer.
There are definitely two sides of the argument and I think it comes down to this: Authors want the private time to use reflections posed by their colleagues to fully elaborate and make there position clear. I think the fear is that if they were to publish these articles/papers instantaneously as they go (like at this conference), they would lose some validity in the strength behind there opinion (at least that is the underlying fear, that people would see inconstancies in their idea development) which is understandable. The intermediary time allows not only for reflective comments by their peers but for self reflection on the arguments and opinions they are expressing.
I think it’s wrong to view this as a formality which is somehow lagging behind the train of technology in the era of immediate information. For most of us, me included, it’s getting harder and harder to wait because our attention spans have decreased to that of a dogs but some things still take time and no amount of technology will change that.
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The coup: five years on
So is it real political choice or just truckshop brand loyalty? I see no point in trying to put rouge lipstick on what is still basically an amaart pig.
Southeast Asia’s Facebook revolution
[On a more lighthearted note] I am Asian and I find myself wanting to take photos of my food too, resist as I might. I attribute it to what my British colleagues call my “extreme criticalness of food”. It’s just a natural extension that you want physical evidence of how well or poorly it is done.
The coup: five years on
John Smith, I don’t think it is an ideological battle, and I don’t think I have ever portayed it in those terms. I think it is about very pragmatic and practical politics. When you encouraged me to spend a year in Wang Nam Yen I thought you were encouraging me to get to know the local political situation. Now you seem to be saying that such an understanding is not necessary, because anyone who has studied populist movements would already know the answers. I can completely understand your political choice. But I also want to be able to understand the choices of others. So, can you give us some information about why the people in the area you are familiar with vote the way they do? AW
The coup: five years on
John Smith,
This is not an ideological battle, it is a battle of elites, and one must choose which one you prefer to run Thailand. My choice of not supporting Thaksin and his fake populist fa├зade is based on the fact that few, if any, populist movements have ended in anything other than corruption, suppression of any dissent, and ultimately tragedy for the very people that were supposedly to benefit as their leaders betrayed them for self gain.
So the Democrat Party didn’t have a ‘fake populist fa├зade’?
Also, when you write a simplistic, blindly confident narrative like “Thaksin and his TRT was a blatant attempt to subvert the checks and balances written into the 1997 Constitution by using the rural godfathers to gain and hold a majority in Parliament and turn Thailand into a UNMO style single party government that would rule for generations”, and expect it to hold up righteously, I think it’s a bit rich for you to cry foul on feeling patronized. Maybe if you feel so passionately about this, you should write a paper and submit it to a peer reviewed academic ‘echo chamber’ journal where you can be patronized properly, survive and live to tell the tale.
In any case…
Sabai sabai!!
The coup: five years on
Andrew #37.
Andrew #37.
I find your response condescending to the point of being patronizing as you know the answer and anyone that has studied populist movements such as the Louisiana Longs and the TRT know it.
You are avoiding addressing my main point that rather than being some sort of movement to “draw state power into local circuits of exchange by means of diverse, informal and pragmatic relationships”, Thaksin and his TRT was a blatant attempt to subvert the checks and balances written into the 1997 Constitution by using the rural godfathers to gain and hold a majority in Parliament and turn Thailand into a UNMO style single party government that would rule for generations.
This is not an ideological battle, it is a battle of elites, and one must choose which one you prefer to run Thailand. My choice of not supporting Thaksin and his fake populist fa├зade is based on the fact that few, if any, populist movements have ended in anything other than corruption, suppression of any dissent, and ultimately tragedy for the very people that were supposedly to benefit as their leaders betrayed them for self gain.
Pavin Chachavalpongpun at the ANU
John Francis Lee,
Yes, what are national universities but giant expert stroking societies? Some even like to be whipped. Depends what floats your boat. It’s very naughty, really. And experts like it that way!
Yes, they alter arguments for papers as though they’re newspaper articles. Because – with all the stroking and whipping going on, there’s no time for academic writing! Only time for a brief missive to be slapped into a journal.
Yes, I don’t see how they can be taken seriously. Most academics have been stroked and whipped to the point where they’re big jokers. It’s the best way to deal with the trauma of being a P ermanent H ead D amage sufferer it seems.
So given academics penchant for being jokers, I think you’re in danger of not being taken seriously. You are, after all, doing exactly what you are saying cannot happen on New Mandala. Is New Mandala an echo-sauna-massage chamber?
Sabai sabai!!
The coup: five years on
Quoting Alex #39
This extension forum from the previous weekend, marking Nitirat’s first anniversary in addition to the fifth year of the coup, is no doubt a lucrative gathering of audiences with democratic mind. With a very limited knowledge of public laws, I found the session very educational, informative, and very relevant to the Thai current political affairs.
Dr Somsak’s presence as a part of the audience was a big plus. He was still straight forward and consistent on his trademark ‘root cause’ issues as usual. It was nice to see him out debating again after an agonizing time when he took a seat as a panelist himself at this very same venue on a Constitutional day of last year.
As a final remark, I second strongly Dr Walker’s both viewpoints in the opening texts which read:
Sheridan and Selth on Burma today
Win,
You can safely say those MIs are victims of a purge and they are in jail.
Arguably they can be classed as political prisoners according to Amnesty’s definition of prisoners of conscience, see other status. Interesting their brother officers in parliament were willing and prepared to take up their cause. Not sure which one it was Tallyrand or de Tocqueville who said, “a reforming govt is at its most vulnerable”. Even a bogus glasnost & perestroika can potentially unravel the whole thing.
As for sanctions, plan B’s statistical evidence or the lack of it is neither here nor there. Burma’s govt has never known such wealth in its own coffers as in recent times. Offshore gas syphoned off to foreign markets continues to be a gold mine (tax collection has never been an efficient part of the bureaucratic machine in our history). Nor have we known $ billionaires in the past. So things are most definitely on the up for some. Why then does it not trickle down to public sector services such as health, education and transport? It’s the political will, stupid! Aid shouldn’t come into it to a crucial degree as plan B alleges. I bet he knows.
Sheridan and Selth on Burma today
@24
Myanmar = The sums of 1,2,&3.
1) 50+ millions of humanity/Citizenry ( Karen, Chin as well as other ethnicity) Yes, ALL the political prisoners as well.
2) Unelected government!
3) INCOMPETENT opposition!
Using Political prisoners and the atrocities against selective ethnic groups, conveniently to make the case for sanction while neglecting the rest of the 50+millions no longer wash.
“Who control most of the mega businesses and export sector in Burma?
Junta and its cronies.
So, does sanction hurts ordinary people?
No.”
At least another admission of the generals and cronies doing well.
Need I say any more about the incompetency of opposition.
Junta doing well and ordinary people is not hurting.
Hmm
Twisted logic imply Junta= Ordinary people.
@26
“whether those MIs meet the definition of your own phrase, ‘jailed victims’, first.”
ALL Myanmar citizenry is currently unwitting victims of # 2 and the political prisoners are the faults of #2 and #3.
Please do not EVER equate the plight of the citizenry with the misfortune of the resulting incompetent opposition.
I did see why sanction is any way justifiable in Myanmar case.
At this point the only case one can make is:
“If not for sanction the generals might behave even worst.”
Then one will still have nothing to refute:
“Sanction hurts the whole country”
Pavin Chachavalpongpun at the ANU
I’ll skip the part about being called a dog and cut to the chase… what’s the point in having conversations among the “experts” in their echo chamber?
Is this what national universities are funded for? Mutual expert stroking societies?
It sounds as though the argument is to allow enough water to flow under the bridge to allow the “exports” to “fine-tune” their talks to agree with the outcomes they’ve “predicted”… after the fact.
I don’t see how they can be taken seriously. I hope they don’t all have accidents driving with their eyes glued to their rear-view mirrors. More to the point, I hope no one else is hurt when they do.
Sheridan and Selth on Burma today
@ aggadassavin
No offence but I believed you better ask whether those MIs meet the definition of your own phrase, ‘jailed victims’, first.
Pavin Chachavalpongpun at the ANU
Here is a link to a very interesting interview that Bangkok Post’s ammart columnist Voranai had with UDD’s Thida.
Title: “Udd-head-to ‘Ammart’ : You didn’t destroy Thaksin, you built Thaksin.”
The link is
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/258153/udd-head-to-ammart-you-didn-t-destroy-thaksin-you-built-thaksin
Sheridan and Selth on Burma today
do the jailed victims of the MI purge in 2004 meet the definition of ‘political prisoners’ ? if not, why not?
Sheridan and Selth on Burma today
Sanction hurts!
Its not!
Another never ending argument with flowery words which is not suitable for the people with little English like me.
Is sanction really hurts?
Let me breakdown this down in simple equations.
Who control most of the mega businesses and export sector in Burma?
Junta and its cronies.
So, does sanction hurts ordinary people?
No.
Does all businesses and production processes employ Burmese citizens which gives them some opportunities?
Yes.
So, does sanction hurts ordinary people?
Yes.
Does the wealth of junta and its cronies dripping back to its citizens?
No.
So, does sanction needed to be in place?
Yes.
Does sanction effective?
No.
Does Burma needs engagement?
Yes.
So, does sanction should be in place?
No.
I believed that this problem would not go away as long as the major players in Burma issue keep concentrating on ‘what happening’ instead of trying to know ‘why things are happening that way’.
However, I do not expect anyone would listen to me.
The coup: five years on
The right-wing Thai Post daily called Nitirat group as Niti Red and condemned it as pro-red. In response, the Nitirat group of law professors have invited all media including Thai Post editors for a debate at the Thammasat Faculty of Law today (Sunday) afternoon.
This is the group’s website: http://www.enlightened-jurists.com/
Whether the right-wing media would come to attend is still unclear. If Abhisit refuses to attend, it is no surprise as he feels secure only when surrounded by military bodyguards.
Sheridan and Selth on Burma today
aiontay
The origin of all these info, with wily, almost hidden “disclaimer”
http://www.senate.gov/general/search/search_cfm.cfm?q=turnell&x=9&y=11&site=default_collection&num=10&filter=0
and repeated by all others:
‘nobody truly know, the exact income or expenditures of anything, within Myanmar due to the lack of or availability of records’.
ALL present Myanmar’s expenditures in everything is just GUESSTIMATE!
Whom you believe make you the supporter of that party assertions/villainy.
Yet reports/propaganda exists in print, roughly translate as:
“The record of advancement during the government of Tamadaw.” (1988 – 31.12. 2008) 412 pages.
Readily available in AVA book store on Sule Pagoda Road, Yangon.
If the government is to be trusted, then it will make ALL the guesstimates appear ridiculous just by looking at the salaries of 2 aspects: # of teachers, and others related to the education and Healthcare.
The conventional wisdom will dictate that:
The actual expenditure, in every aspects towards citizenry’s well beings, is more than every anti generals alleged and definitely less than the generals might like to claim.
Plainly, NOT ENOUGH even by this present government own admission, % or otherwise.
Plenty articles here.
http://www.mizzima.com/
Myanmar has always needed help in Education, Healthcare as well as other supports, even in the best of time. Available even during equally atrocious Ne Win’s era.
Sanctions terminated almost every aspects for 1 generation of Myanmar citizenry.
Will you or anyone care to Guesstimate so boldly, what % of that, contribute to further the degradation of citizenry Education and Healthcare and all related tragedies as did for vilifying purpose?
Righteously curse the generals however let’s not ignore the compounded sufferings imposed on the citizenry.
Re-litigating all the false info out there, that neglect the plight of victims of this tragic episode, becoming even more tragic with continuing villainy from all sides.
Happy Malaysia Day
Extracted from, “MCMC defends ban on Undilah video“, Teoh El Sen, Free Malaysia Today, 23 September 2011.
BERSIH 2.0 analysis
9 July 2011 – What really happened.
A group of social activists involved in BERSIH 2.0 has put together a bilingual book based on the collection of eyewitness accounts of what Malaysians really experienced at the Bersih 2.0 rally of 9/7/11.
The video of the book launch is available here.
Pavin Chachavalpongpun at the ANU
Andrew (9). It sounds as if you would support publishing the conference abstracts on the Web now, though the more polished work will clearly take longer.
Pavin Chachavalpongpun at the ANU
There are definitely two sides of the argument and I think it comes down to this: Authors want the private time to use reflections posed by their colleagues to fully elaborate and make there position clear. I think the fear is that if they were to publish these articles/papers instantaneously as they go (like at this conference), they would lose some validity in the strength behind there opinion (at least that is the underlying fear, that people would see inconstancies in their idea development) which is understandable. The intermediary time allows not only for reflective comments by their peers but for self reflection on the arguments and opinions they are expressing.
I think it’s wrong to view this as a formality which is somehow lagging behind the train of technology in the era of immediate information. For most of us, me included, it’s getting harder and harder to wait because our attention spans have decreased to that of a dogs but some things still take time and no amount of technology will change that.