I think the Thai elite’s use of language is more than just complacency resulting from years of not being challenged. They are actually very sophisticated and the kind of relentless forensic analysis of their silken tongues that Tyrell Haberkorn does so well is a necessary weapon in exposing them to the global light of day.
Newsflash: Anyone who’s earned a bachelors degree from a Thai university has seen and/or performed more sexually explicit material than N’ Ja’s.
Thai universities have a tradition called rahp nong, which, for those of you who aren’t familiar with, is hazing/initiation involving being degraded, berated and humiliated, often deprived of sleep and plied with alcohol, sexually suggestive performances are common, and the activities are generally supported by the school. Participation is more or less compulsary for freshman, and the upper-classmen organize the activities. From my own uni experience some 10 years ago, two song and dance numbers come to mind: the “Clam Song” and the “Snake Song.” Both involved girls dancing suggestively and neither were about animals. This all took place in public, on uni grounds, with the teachers and admin staff fully aware (of course, this was back when cell phones didn’t have video cameras). I went to one of the more prestigious schools and my experience was not in any way unique. That’s Thai tradion for you.
So, in sum: any person who attended a Thai university and is denouncing N’ Ja for her actions is a complete and utter hypocrite – I’m guessing this includes nearly all of the old heads in the chorus (not to say anything of their sons and daughters).
Lastly, Andrew, I don’t think it’s appropiate to compare the two interviews with Woody. One of them was definately an exception to the norm. As Nigella pointed out, he’s generally an ass.
” For those interested in the politics of language and body language, it would make a fascinating study to compare Woody’s treatment of Princess Chulaphon with his treatment of Nong Ja.”
Would you expect Bert Newton to ask the same question and act the same way when he interview Dalai Lama and Lady Gaga?
Your point is neither neutral nor intelligent..at least politically.
OK, I just watched the concert video and Woody’s interview video, so here is the view of a 40-something farang woman, albeit one who’s lived in Bangkok since 2001…
This is rather…sad. Nong Ja is very pretty, sexy, and talented — she sings well, dances well, shows a charming sense of humour, and deals with the sometimes-aggressive adoration of her male fans adeptly without making any of them lose face. But I cringed while watching the video because I couldn’t help thinking, why buy the cow if one can get the milk for free? (As my late Alabama gran used to say.) She’s pulled a shocker to start off her career, so where can she go from here — perhaps shooting out ping pong balls or stripping off completely whilst singing Khan Huu? (Bangkok has a shortage of people who can do those things…ha.) Someone has taken advantage of her naivete and ambition to make as much money off her talents as possible now, in the short term, by leaving very little to the imagination and hence leaving very narrow parameters for her career to develop in the long term. Her agent/management/label are laughing all the way to the bank right now due to a quickie payday. Of course Nong Ja has benefitted financially from the song, too, but scratching one’s punani and moaning whilst trying to disentangle oneself from salivating men twice one’s age loses its appeal after a while. She’ll need to work her ear off to rehabilitate her image enough to be ‘allowed’ to branch out into soap opera acting, TV presenting, crooning songs for film soundtracks, whatever.
However, Woody is an a*s. Rather than show any concern for Nong Ja (she is, after all, only 20, FFS!), he oozes disdain during the interview — hell, he was stiff as a board (meaning frozen in repulsion, as opposed to the kind of stiff the song wants) even while she was performing. Woody needs to take himself less seriously. He would benefit from spending a little less time in the ivory citadels of, say, Siam Paragon or the RBSC.
In Thailand, katoeys and fat men are permitted to express sexual desire because they are themselves undesirable by mainstream consensus view. Young attractive women are categorized as the objects of sexual desire, and therefore for one to express sexual desire herself is a subversion of the norm, which grates against the sensibilities of the social conservative mind, which by nature fears what it cannot comprehend.
A certain person’s decision to videotape his wife wearing only a hat and eating cake off the floor, as odd as it may sound, adheres to the norms of Thai social conservatism much more closely.
The style as well as the reactions of the ministry remind me heaps of Dangdut, the popular Indonesian and Malaysian blend of Hindi, Arab and Western pop, often supported by cheesy house and techno beats.
As one of my friends once famously said: the only things that hold Indonesia together as a nation are bahasa Indonesia and dangdut. Dangdut draws huge crowds of men and singers/dancers are abnormally sexy considering the conservatism of both Malaysian and Indonesian culture. Texts are full of saucy metaphors.
Not surprisingly dangdut singers, grinding their hips while sighing and groaning, have wreaked the havoc of many a conservative Muslim authority. Inul Daratista, once banned from performing in Malaysia and (in)famous for her fast hip movements, is said to have triggered the Indonesian anti-pornography law.
Check out for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIQZv5izERg&feature=related for a fine example. Admittedly, it’s all still a bit well behaved compared to our new Thai star…
Frustrated – not at all. Just very passionate about Malaysia and have a tendency to say it as it is – that’s all.
Not qualified to comment on the historical aspects.
Understanding the psyche of an individual is very difficult. But suffice to say that Muslims in Malaysia have become more conservative (compare Malays in the 60s and today).
And critically, the rule of law and its administration has becomes increasingly lax, because of the changing nature of Malays.
And this is why you point about the middle ground worries me. The middle ground has moved so far to the right, that there is no merit in meeting it halfway. And the reason that it has moved so far to the right is because non – Malays and progressive Muslims have always bent over backwards to accommodate rising Islamic fundamentalism sometimes to placate Muslims but more often in fear of Muslim bigots within UMNO, who use race and religion as a cover for widespread corruption.
Are you living in Malaysia? Have you been following developments in Malaysia. Have you spent time working in a public sector? have you seen our schools change? Have you seen programming on RTM television or radio?
When UMNO goes on a rampage against non – Muslims, you expect the non – Muslims to meet them halfway? What half-way is that.
UMNO’s halfway is simple: as long as non – Malays follow and accept what UMNO says, all will be well. Not very different from the Mafia, wouldn’t you say.
Sorry for the delayed response. The “Labour Organisation Bill” was approved a few weeks ago by the government into the upper house. I haven’t seen much coverage of it but The Myanmar Times had this article (http://www.mmtimes.com/2011/news/591/news59101.html) recently. Apparently the ILO was consulted quite extensively during the drafting process to ensure it met international standards. I haven’t heard anything about when it will be sent to the lower house for approval, however. I expect that will be a formality, given the government is pushing the bill, but there is likely to be some discussion and the speaker could ask the Pyithu Hluttaw Bill Committee to examine it again and recommend possible amendments.
I wonder what difference political prisoners and crime prisoners are,when political prisoner make devastation for more people than crime prisoner did it.
““…the dream that Burma would stabilize itself was apparently more appealing than the annexation of war-torn pieces of the whole.”
The answer to the first part concerning stabilization will never happen as long as one of the the main cause “the west useless careless and ALL other intervention remain against the citizenry well being”.
Surely there must be ONE useful example of “west intervention” that make one good example in all Asia>
As for the second part of being a bold devil’s advocate of Annexation! Read the ” History of Myanmar vs Thais” now a “Special” requirement in ALL the school in Myanmar as part of the mandated curriculum by this regime.
Will anyone here care to guess what is mentioned in that 7x5x1/4 inch booklet?
Honoring the KISS principle, Mr Mazard can stop wondering about Thais intent.
Describing the treatment of the most vulnerable Burmese by the Thais yet failed to mention that the multiple joint ventures of Thai military and this present regime since Thahksin government in terms of “Palm Oil” and “Rubber Plantations”, just these 2 elements alone, among many others # in the hundreds! Just like China indeed.
The future is already here: A future of Domination, Economically, without any risk. As long as Myanmar remain labeled as a “Pariah” state.
Any past 75 years of historical evidence of ANY Asian country ever able to ANNEX another country’s territory?
The problem of Myanmar is:
“Unworthy even to be called Myanmar, the name rightly given by this regime” being able to outwit every useless careless obstacles thrown.
Resulting in a citizenry that has nothing to hope for but desperation for short term existence.
Solve the real problem first by stopping this useless careless ideas such as Annexation.
Most of my students are tickled pink by the song even if they’re a little bit put off by the raunchiness of the dance. They’re all abuzz with it in class and some of them are even to be heard singing it under their breath while working. They certainly aren’t debating the merits of it as a part of Thai culture.
The whole thing has been engineered as a publicity stunt according to some of the people I have spoken to. They claim that the promoter developed the band and the song and dance number and then released it on youtube to flair the controversy. I don’t doubt that this plan has worked if it is indeed the case.
I attended TEDxBKK this past weekend and there was an interesting talk given about national branding in the context of commercial advertising. The speaker noted that Thailand must become more officially self-aware of it’s own cultural practices and stop projecting the romantic traditional vision of Thai Dance and Music if it is too craft a successful brand. I don’t know how well it would really play to connect up Thai Airways and Nong Ja’s Turbo Music but I do think that people would do well not to come down down so hard on this very common culture of erotic dancing and wordplay.
The more elders try to tell the young something is wrong and that they shouldnt do it, the more the young want to do it and do indeed do it especially when most of those who frown on such practices are rather poor role models themselves.
Thailand is a changing place in many many ways and none of it is going back in the bottle. The sooner this is understood by all, the easier it will be for everyone.
Thai universities too are full of young women openly flaunting their sexuality with complete disregard for suggested dress codes and any sanction. Whether it is pandering to male ideas of sexuality, women taking control of their own expression/individualism or even a deliberate finger in the eye to educational establishments conservative authorities is another debate but it is very apparent.
One wonders what the traditionalists would have made too of the traditional practice of many Thai women to be topless a while back in history
Well this is a democracy, and that means meeting people in the middle. Non-bumis tend to think that they’re the paragon of Malaysian-ness, while you have time-and-again highlighted how central the Malay identity is to the far right. I think the actual vision of the Malaysian Individual remains undertheorized of how he/she will actually look like.
Why don’t you put up a post on that whole historical revisionist debate that’s been going on? Even Clive Kessler seems to have chipped in.
Gotta love the Thai explanations. They’re about to open a prison for political prisoners because of the problems between those and other prisoners… yet in the same breath he claims there are no political prisoners.
Senior Thais are not good liars — they’re so accustomed to never being called out on their bullshit that they ignore obvious discrepancies with the facts, and don’t even make minimal effort to be consistent.
A new front has been opened in Malaysian history when Professor Zainal Kling asserted that Malaysia was never colonised. Clive Kessler explores this assertion in this excellent essay.
Prof Zainal’s position, and that of those who are of the same mind in these matters, is that not merely Malay sacred royal daulat but “sovereignty” in the modern technical jurisprudential sense had survived in the hands of the Malay Rulers, unimpaired and undiminished, throughout the “British years” from 1874 to 1957.
More than that, having remained with them, in their traditional custodianship, this sovereignty could be, and in historical fact was, passed on by the Malay Rulers (as they asserted in their Wasiat of August 5, 1957) to the new independent nation.
In that way, a new nation was born, but born as the vehicle and instrument of a continuing sovereignty that was far older. It embodied a moral authority and sovereignty of far greater political and cultural authenticity than anything that the departing British might have managed through its Colonial Office to fabricate.
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New prison for political prisoners in Thailand?
#1
I think the Thai elite’s use of language is more than just complacency resulting from years of not being challenged. They are actually very sophisticated and the kind of relentless forensic analysis of their silken tongues that Tyrell Haberkorn does so well is a necessary weapon in exposing them to the global light of day.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
Newsflash: Anyone who’s earned a bachelors degree from a Thai university has seen and/or performed more sexually explicit material than N’ Ja’s.
Thai universities have a tradition called rahp nong, which, for those of you who aren’t familiar with, is hazing/initiation involving being degraded, berated and humiliated, often deprived of sleep and plied with alcohol, sexually suggestive performances are common, and the activities are generally supported by the school. Participation is more or less compulsary for freshman, and the upper-classmen organize the activities. From my own uni experience some 10 years ago, two song and dance numbers come to mind: the “Clam Song” and the “Snake Song.” Both involved girls dancing suggestively and neither were about animals. This all took place in public, on uni grounds, with the teachers and admin staff fully aware (of course, this was back when cell phones didn’t have video cameras). I went to one of the more prestigious schools and my experience was not in any way unique. That’s Thai tradion for you.
So, in sum: any person who attended a Thai university and is denouncing N’ Ja for her actions is a complete and utter hypocrite – I’m guessing this includes nearly all of the old heads in the chorus (not to say anything of their sons and daughters).
Lastly, Andrew, I don’t think it’s appropiate to compare the two interviews with Woody. One of them was definately an exception to the norm. As Nigella pointed out, he’s generally an ass.
-R
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
The story is interesting until I read:
” For those interested in the politics of language and body language, it would make a fascinating study to compare Woody’s treatment of Princess Chulaphon with his treatment of Nong Ja.”
Would you expect Bert Newton to ask the same question and act the same way when he interview Dalai Lama and Lady Gaga?
Your point is neither neutral nor intelligent..at least politically.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
OK, I just watched the concert video and Woody’s interview video, so here is the view of a 40-something farang woman, albeit one who’s lived in Bangkok since 2001…
This is rather…sad. Nong Ja is very pretty, sexy, and talented — she sings well, dances well, shows a charming sense of humour, and deals with the sometimes-aggressive adoration of her male fans adeptly without making any of them lose face. But I cringed while watching the video because I couldn’t help thinking, why buy the cow if one can get the milk for free? (As my late Alabama gran used to say.) She’s pulled a shocker to start off her career, so where can she go from here — perhaps shooting out ping pong balls or stripping off completely whilst singing Khan Huu? (Bangkok has a shortage of people who can do those things…ha.) Someone has taken advantage of her naivete and ambition to make as much money off her talents as possible now, in the short term, by leaving very little to the imagination and hence leaving very narrow parameters for her career to develop in the long term. Her agent/management/label are laughing all the way to the bank right now due to a quickie payday. Of course Nong Ja has benefitted financially from the song, too, but scratching one’s punani and moaning whilst trying to disentangle oneself from salivating men twice one’s age loses its appeal after a while. She’ll need to work her ear off to rehabilitate her image enough to be ‘allowed’ to branch out into soap opera acting, TV presenting, crooning songs for film soundtracks, whatever.
However, Woody is an a*s. Rather than show any concern for Nong Ja (she is, after all, only 20, FFS!), he oozes disdain during the interview — hell, he was stiff as a board (meaning frozen in repulsion, as opposed to the kind of stiff the song wants) even while she was performing. Woody needs to take himself less seriously. He would benefit from spending a little less time in the ivory citadels of, say, Siam Paragon or the RBSC.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
In Thailand, katoeys and fat men are permitted to express sexual desire because they are themselves undesirable by mainstream consensus view. Young attractive women are categorized as the objects of sexual desire, and therefore for one to express sexual desire herself is a subversion of the norm, which grates against the sensibilities of the social conservative mind, which by nature fears what it cannot comprehend.
A certain person’s decision to videotape his wife wearing only a hat and eating cake off the floor, as odd as it may sound, adheres to the norms of Thai social conservatism much more closely.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
Khan Ju #5
Especially since ju (with a rising tone) means shrunken, very short.
Reclaiming Malaysian history
Just a couple of simple questions to those who subscribe to the – “Never been colonised” assertation.
1. Why are the “heroes” of independence celebrated?
2. Why are we having a “Merdeka” day?
I rest my case.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
The style as well as the reactions of the ministry remind me heaps of Dangdut, the popular Indonesian and Malaysian blend of Hindi, Arab and Western pop, often supported by cheesy house and techno beats.
As one of my friends once famously said: the only things that hold Indonesia together as a nation are bahasa Indonesia and dangdut. Dangdut draws huge crowds of men and singers/dancers are abnormally sexy considering the conservatism of both Malaysian and Indonesian culture. Texts are full of saucy metaphors.
Not surprisingly dangdut singers, grinding their hips while sighing and groaning, have wreaked the havoc of many a conservative Muslim authority. Inul Daratista, once banned from performing in Malaysia and (in)famous for her fast hip movements, is said to have triggered the Indonesian anti-pornography law.
Check out for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIQZv5izERg&feature=related for a fine example. Admittedly, it’s all still a bit well behaved compared to our new Thai star…
Corruption in Malaysia and Singapore
@ rockjianrock #12,
Frustrated – not at all. Just very passionate about Malaysia and have a tendency to say it as it is – that’s all.
Not qualified to comment on the historical aspects.
Understanding the psyche of an individual is very difficult. But suffice to say that Muslims in Malaysia have become more conservative (compare Malays in the 60s and today).
And critically, the rule of law and its administration has becomes increasingly lax, because of the changing nature of Malays.
And this is why you point about the middle ground worries me. The middle ground has moved so far to the right, that there is no merit in meeting it halfway. And the reason that it has moved so far to the right is because non – Malays and progressive Muslims have always bent over backwards to accommodate rising Islamic fundamentalism sometimes to placate Muslims but more often in fear of Muslim bigots within UMNO, who use race and religion as a cover for widespread corruption.
Are you living in Malaysia? Have you been following developments in Malaysia. Have you spent time working in a public sector? have you seen our schools change? Have you seen programming on RTM television or radio?
When UMNO goes on a rampage against non – Muslims, you expect the non – Muslims to meet them halfway? What half-way is that.
UMNO’s halfway is simple: as long as non – Malays follow and accept what UMNO says, all will be well. Not very different from the Mafia, wouldn’t you say.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
Male singer can replace Huu (р╕лр╕╣) тАЛby Juu (р╕Ир╕╣р╣Л).
It changes only the consonant.
The vowel and tone are still the same!
This is the beauty of Thai language 🙂
Burma’s parliamentary prospects
Stephen,
Sorry for the delayed response. The “Labour Organisation Bill” was approved a few weeks ago by the government into the upper house. I haven’t seen much coverage of it but The Myanmar Times had this article (http://www.mmtimes.com/2011/news/591/news59101.html) recently. Apparently the ILO was consulted quite extensively during the drafting process to ensure it met international standards. I haven’t heard anything about when it will be sent to the lower house for approval, however. I expect that will be a formality, given the government is pushing the bill, but there is likely to be some discussion and the speaker could ask the Pyithu Hluttaw Bill Committee to examine it again and recommend possible amendments.
New prison for political prisoners in Thailand?
I wonder what difference political prisoners and crime prisoners are,when political prisoner make devastation for more people than crime prisoner did it.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
she definitely needs some medication to get rid of the itch lol
War continues in Kachin State
““…the dream that Burma would stabilize itself was apparently more appealing than the annexation of war-torn pieces of the whole.”
The answer to the first part concerning stabilization will never happen as long as one of the the main cause “the west useless careless and ALL other intervention remain against the citizenry well being”.
Surely there must be ONE useful example of “west intervention” that make one good example in all Asia>
As for the second part of being a bold devil’s advocate of Annexation! Read the ” History of Myanmar vs Thais” now a “Special” requirement in ALL the school in Myanmar as part of the mandated curriculum by this regime.
Will anyone here care to guess what is mentioned in that 7x5x1/4 inch booklet?
Honoring the KISS principle, Mr Mazard can stop wondering about Thais intent.
Describing the treatment of the most vulnerable Burmese by the Thais yet failed to mention that the multiple joint ventures of Thai military and this present regime since Thahksin government in terms of “Palm Oil” and “Rubber Plantations”, just these 2 elements alone, among many others # in the hundreds! Just like China indeed.
The future is already here: A future of Domination, Economically, without any risk. As long as Myanmar remain labeled as a “Pariah” state.
Any past 75 years of historical evidence of ANY Asian country ever able to ANNEX another country’s territory?
The problem of Myanmar is:
“Unworthy even to be called Myanmar, the name rightly given by this regime” being able to outwit every useless careless obstacles thrown.
Resulting in a citizenry that has nothing to hope for but desperation for short term existence.
Solve the real problem first by stopping this useless careless ideas such as Annexation.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
Thai University Teacher Reporting here,
Most of my students are tickled pink by the song even if they’re a little bit put off by the raunchiness of the dance. They’re all abuzz with it in class and some of them are even to be heard singing it under their breath while working. They certainly aren’t debating the merits of it as a part of Thai culture.
The whole thing has been engineered as a publicity stunt according to some of the people I have spoken to. They claim that the promoter developed the band and the song and dance number and then released it on youtube to flair the controversy. I don’t doubt that this plan has worked if it is indeed the case.
I attended TEDxBKK this past weekend and there was an interesting talk given about national branding in the context of commercial advertising. The speaker noted that Thailand must become more officially self-aware of it’s own cultural practices and stop projecting the romantic traditional vision of Thai Dance and Music if it is too craft a successful brand. I don’t know how well it would really play to connect up Thai Airways and Nong Ja’s Turbo Music but I do think that people would do well not to come down down so hard on this very common culture of erotic dancing and wordplay.
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
The more elders try to tell the young something is wrong and that they shouldnt do it, the more the young want to do it and do indeed do it especially when most of those who frown on such practices are rather poor role models themselves.
Thailand is a changing place in many many ways and none of it is going back in the bottle. The sooner this is understood by all, the easier it will be for everyone.
Thai universities too are full of young women openly flaunting their sexuality with complete disregard for suggested dress codes and any sanction. Whether it is pandering to male ideas of sexuality, women taking control of their own expression/individualism or even a deliberate finger in the eye to educational establishments conservative authorities is another debate but it is very apparent.
One wonders what the traditionalists would have made too of the traditional practice of many Thai women to be topless a while back in history
р╕Др╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕╣ : Nong Ja ahead of Democrats!
The Spice Girls (Comical, Jumbo, Chemical and the rest) must be green with envy!
Corruption in Malaysia and Singapore
Hi Greg,
I sense some deep frustration on your side.
Well this is a democracy, and that means meeting people in the middle. Non-bumis tend to think that they’re the paragon of Malaysian-ness, while you have time-and-again highlighted how central the Malay identity is to the far right. I think the actual vision of the Malaysian Individual remains undertheorized of how he/she will actually look like.
Why don’t you put up a post on that whole historical revisionist debate that’s been going on? Even Clive Kessler seems to have chipped in.
New prison for political prisoners in Thailand?
Gotta love the Thai explanations. They’re about to open a prison for political prisoners because of the problems between those and other prisoners… yet in the same breath he claims there are no political prisoners.
Senior Thais are not good liars — they’re so accustomed to never being called out on their bullshit that they ignore obvious discrepancies with the facts, and don’t even make minimal effort to be consistent.
Reclaiming Malaysian history
A new front has been opened in Malaysian history when Professor Zainal Kling asserted that Malaysia was never colonised. Clive Kessler explores this assertion in this excellent essay.