Chalerm didn’t actually commit any crime because Photjaman didn’t actually buy the land. Top marks for Legal Loopholes 101.
That is no legal loophole, if you even care about some basic rules of law. What chalerm said has been repeatedly said by me for the last 2 years. You can check my earlier post if you want. This case would be a none case any where in the word. If Thaksin should be find guilty for the purchase of the lant, the court must find Pojaman and FIDF guilty first, then they should be able to go after Thaksin, not the other way around.
Since BKK lawyer havnt response to your post yet but I felt like I can address some of the points you mad.
My opinion was based on the assumption that he was guilty. Based on this assumption I don’t understand why you would think my view is “ignorant.”
it was your assumption that it is indicated that you are ignorant. If you even care (which you did) every accused is innocent until proven otherwise. When you made assumption that Goe is guilty its already say a lot about your distorted perception to what is “right” or “wrong”.
Although you have the “simple clarity” to the matter, but at least you should get that “simple” right. If you couldnt get the basic right then do we even need to talk about complicated stuff?
Yet another impediment to Free Speech and the free flow of information in Thailand has surfaced per this post from PPT, the refusal of Thailand’s two principal bookstore chains to carry a new book about Thaksin:
The lawyers seemed to have messed up in the part of the complaint where they describe the plaintiff as “selling his Thai stocks short”. I think they must have meant just selling his Thai stocks, as it is impossible to sell short stocks that one owns. By definition you can only sell short stocks you don’t own but have borrowed, in order to profit from their anticipated decline. This would be understandable if he wanted to sell his Thai stocks and remit the proceeds out of the country for fear that his assets might somehow be seized in Thailand. However, he has apparently not sold his condo in Bangkok.
As it stands the wording of this part of the complaint is meaningless, while what it was probably intended to mean is a non sequitur. Anyway good luck to him, in spite of his lawyers’ slipshod writing.
What authority did these people have in order to interrogate a U.S. citizen under the U.S. soil? Did they have any jurisdiction at the said hotel? It looked like an illegal use of authority and conduct.
I think they did not even read him the constitutional rights.
Laws are suppose to protect lives , freedom and properties but unfortunately it had became a tool to protect the power that be. It is suppose to protect freedom of speech, association and faith, more a more laws are now added to curb this freedom, like the recent raid on a church to curb freedom to apostate.
When the freedom of man which were given at the beginning were slowly curtailed , the people will one day burst out and overthrow the corrupt evil power as its happening in Syria now. An evil and wicked generation will surely end by itself.
Our hope is still on a higher spiritual freedom that is perfect for all and the choice is up to individual to choose. If they want to go to hell , which they normally don’t believe or aware, its their choice. Therefore to force a person to believe in a faith and prevent him/her from converting out is the law of a corrupted and evil government.
China, India as well as the reincarnated Tahksin_by_proxy, newly elected Thai government, all will want the present government to succeed.
For one obvious reason of benefiting from the useless careless unduly anointed pariah status by the west on Myanmar.
This Kachin vs Bamar is but another microcosm of Myanmar’s historically validated eventual Bamar dominance.
Compared to Karen/Bamar this conflict must be even more miniscule in significance.
Assumption of KIA represent all Kachin just as KNU represent all Karen will surly maintain status quo.
The only reason this internal conflict is barely news worthy is to again detract attention from the real victims, the citizenry among which are the Kachin and Karen brothers, to endure this present continuing useless careless acts, by the west, that has created this ongoing quagmire,
As for the posters that will use this as another example of unreasonable brutality of present government, and fantasize on possible changes from the ominous bloodshed to follow during the coming dry season, shame on you all.
The good news is that I will indeed get an interview with one of our local (Burmese) refugees as a consequence of the article. In theory, research leads to publishing, but, quite often, it’s the other way around: publishing creates the opportunity for research.
A detailed summary of Day Nine of the Chiranuch trial, a day which saw the Royal who brought the original complaint flushed out into the open for all the world to see……….
Seh Fah: The Chalerm (throwaway) line is not comparable in any sense. I believe you’ll find that the son was on the run and on bail through much of the less than 3 years from the shooting to the trial. As far as I remember, he spent 9 months in jail, and his plea was of innocence throughout.
On other cases of foreigners, I agree that we don’t know much about this. There is Anthony Chai and the infamous case of Frenchman Lech Tomasz Kisielewicz, a businessman. There was a case of a guy in Hua Hin who stated that Sinrindhorn was fat. There has been talk of Cambodians and Burmese held for lese majeste. I am sure that others know or remember more.
The point is that claiming a quiet approach is best is based on no other strategy having been tried (as far as I can recall). So your claims of efficacy of this approach are weak as there is no contrary approach that we can compare with.
I’ve touched quite a nerve with you. Your self righteous dismissal of my comments have piqued my interest.
Perhaps I’ve been misunderstood: this Joe Gordon should be considered innocent until his proven guilty. My opinion was based on the assumption that he was guilty. Based on this assumption I don’t understand why you would think my view is “ignorant.”
Perhaps you feel a bit threatened by my candor and simple clarity on the matter, something that perhaps you feel escapes your lawyerly perspective freighted with its pomposity and frivolous allusions to laws no one follows.
Would you mind pointing out exactly what it is you find problematic in my opinion? A lawyer in a nation that has no law. This is interesting.
I don’t think that those red shirt leaders appointed to government positions will be seduced by the attractions of power into losing interest in Article 112 and its abuse, but if they do, it is my firm belief that the UDD will soon make their displeasure known.
For those who have the opportunity, I would suggest a visit to the red shirts’ headquarters in Bangkok’s northern suburbs. This would quickly dispel many of the widespread misconceptions regarding this movement, and reveal its true nature, its resilience and determination. I’m not suggesting they are all angels, infallible or above criticism, but they are here to stay.
billyd is calling for imaginative protests but the prosecutors of lese majeste can get pretty imaginative too. Here’s a statement about their methodology from Yanaphol Youngyuen, one of the heroic pursuers of Anthony Chai
“They might use some tactics to conceal their intention. For example, they might send an email forward embedding a massage that…. ‘we can’t stand this person condemning the king…’ but it was actually the distribution of insulting message. That’s one of their various tactics.”
So you can say something in support of the monarchy and they will read it as meaning the opposite. That’s imaginative.
It’s nice to know that the witch-finder generals at the DSI are also capable of reading through people’s actual words and deeds into their concealed intentions. Mind readers.
Just to put things in perspective, civilian casualties in the southern border provinces since the separatist insurgency escalated sharply in January 2004 now exceed the combined total of civilian casualties during the Malayan Emergency (1948-1960) and the Troubles in Northern Ireland (1969-1998).
And the top priority for Yingluck and the Phuea Thai regime (forget about the UDD and Red Shirts, they’re no longer relevant) is the pardon for Thaksin, who according to Chalerm didn’t actually commit any crime because Photjaman didn’t actually buy the land. Top marks for Legal Loopholes 101.
Now that the most important UDD and Red Shirt leaders have been rewarded with political appointments and have effectively become part of the government, I suspect that their interest in Article 112 and its abuse by the powers that be will dissipate very quickly.
Apart from Oliver Jufer in 2007 and Harry Nicolaides in 2008/2009, when I was living in Bangkok, I’m not aware of any other cases of Farangs being charged with lese majeste. If anyone has details of any other cases, please share them.
As far as Oliver and Harry were concerned, there was no need to try any approach other than diplomatic negotiation because the desired outcomes were achieved very quickly, given the usual glacial pace of the Thai legal system. How long did it take Chalerm to get his little boy off the murder charge?
Priority no. 1 of the Yingluck/PeauThai/Red Shirts regime is: GET THAT PARDON FOR BELOVED LEADER THAKSIN, OK?
Any action by Yingluck/PeauThai Party towards amending/abolishing the LM laws would be counter-productively distract against priority no. 1, e.g., it will be a big No No.
Open letters to Yingluck are fruitless. Open letters to Thaksin make more sense.
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Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Seh Fah – 27
Chalerm didn’t actually commit any crime because Photjaman didn’t actually buy the land. Top marks for Legal Loopholes 101.
That is no legal loophole, if you even care about some basic rules of law. What chalerm said has been repeatedly said by me for the last 2 years. You can check my earlier post if you want. This case would be a none case any where in the word. If Thaksin should be find guilty for the purchase of the lant, the court must find Pojaman and FIDF guilty first, then they should be able to go after Thaksin, not the other way around.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Maratjp – 143
Since BKK lawyer havnt response to your post yet but I felt like I can address some of the points you mad.
My opinion was based on the assumption that he was guilty. Based on this assumption I don’t understand why you would think my view is “ignorant.”
it was your assumption that it is indicated that you are ignorant. If you even care (which you did) every accused is innocent until proven otherwise. When you made assumption that Goe is guilty its already say a lot about your distorted perception to what is “right” or “wrong”.
Although you have the “simple clarity” to the matter, but at least you should get that “simple” right. If you couldnt get the basic right then do we even need to talk about complicated stuff?
Prachatai trial update
Yet another impediment to Free Speech and the free flow of information in Thailand has surfaced per this post from PPT, the refusal of Thailand’s two principal bookstore chains to carry a new book about Thaksin:
http://goo.gl/zBhsJ
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
The lawyers seemed to have messed up in the part of the complaint where they describe the plaintiff as “selling his Thai stocks short”. I think they must have meant just selling his Thai stocks, as it is impossible to sell short stocks that one owns. By definition you can only sell short stocks you don’t own but have borrowed, in order to profit from their anticipated decline. This would be understandable if he wanted to sell his Thai stocks and remit the proceeds out of the country for fear that his assets might somehow be seized in Thailand. However, he has apparently not sold his condo in Bangkok.
As it stands the wording of this part of the complaint is meaningless, while what it was probably intended to mean is a non sequitur. Anyway good luck to him, in spite of his lawyers’ slipshod writing.
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
What authority did these people have in order to interrogate a U.S. citizen under the U.S. soil? Did they have any jurisdiction at the said hotel? It looked like an illegal use of authority and conduct.
I think they did not even read him the constitutional rights.
Corruption in Malaysia and Singapore
[…] Lopez of New Mandala notes that despite the numerous anti-corruption efforts in the past years, corruption continues rise in Malaysia. […]
Review of Palace, Political Party and Power
Laws are suppose to protect lives , freedom and properties but unfortunately it had became a tool to protect the power that be. It is suppose to protect freedom of speech, association and faith, more a more laws are now added to curb this freedom, like the recent raid on a church to curb freedom to apostate.
When the freedom of man which were given at the beginning were slowly curtailed , the people will one day burst out and overthrow the corrupt evil power as its happening in Syria now. An evil and wicked generation will surely end by itself.
Our hope is still on a higher spiritual freedom that is perfect for all and the choice is up to individual to choose. If they want to go to hell , which they normally don’t believe or aware, its their choice. Therefore to force a person to believe in a faith and prevent him/her from converting out is the law of a corrupted and evil government.
War continues in Kachin State
Nic
China, India as well as the reincarnated Tahksin_by_proxy, newly elected Thai government, all will want the present government to succeed.
For one obvious reason of benefiting from the useless careless unduly anointed pariah status by the west on Myanmar.
This Kachin vs Bamar is but another microcosm of Myanmar’s historically validated eventual Bamar dominance.
Compared to Karen/Bamar this conflict must be even more miniscule in significance.
Assumption of KIA represent all Kachin just as KNU represent all Karen will surly maintain status quo.
The only reason this internal conflict is barely news worthy is to again detract attention from the real victims, the citizenry among which are the Kachin and Karen brothers, to endure this present continuing useless careless acts, by the west, that has created this ongoing quagmire,
As for the posters that will use this as another example of unreasonable brutality of present government, and fantasize on possible changes from the ominous bloodshed to follow during the coming dry season, shame on you all.
Regina, Canada, Burma
There’s nothing like newsprint:
http://www.carillonregina.com/?p=4387
These guys also changed the title (can’t imagine why).
The good news is that I will indeed get an interview with one of our local (Burmese) refugees as a consequence of the article. In theory, research leads to publishing, but, quite often, it’s the other way around: publishing creates the opportunity for research.
Prachatai trial update
A detailed summary of Day Nine of the Chiranuch trial, a day which saw the Royal who brought the original complaint flushed out into the open for all the world to see……….
http://facthai.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/day-nine-free-speech-on-trial-in-thailand/
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah: The Chalerm (throwaway) line is not comparable in any sense. I believe you’ll find that the son was on the run and on bail through much of the less than 3 years from the shooting to the trial. As far as I remember, he spent 9 months in jail, and his plea was of innocence throughout.
On other cases of foreigners, I agree that we don’t know much about this. There is Anthony Chai and the infamous case of Frenchman Lech Tomasz Kisielewicz, a businessman. There was a case of a guy in Hua Hin who stated that Sinrindhorn was fat. There has been talk of Cambodians and Burmese held for lese majeste. I am sure that others know or remember more.
The point is that claiming a quiet approach is best is based on no other strategy having been tried (as far as I can recall). So your claims of efficacy of this approach are weak as there is no contrary approach that we can compare with.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
BKK lawyer @137
I’ve touched quite a nerve with you. Your self righteous dismissal of my comments have piqued my interest.
Perhaps I’ve been misunderstood: this Joe Gordon should be considered innocent until his proven guilty. My opinion was based on the assumption that he was guilty. Based on this assumption I don’t understand why you would think my view is “ignorant.”
Perhaps you feel a bit threatened by my candor and simple clarity on the matter, something that perhaps you feel escapes your lawyerly perspective freighted with its pomposity and frivolous allusions to laws no one follows.
Would you mind pointing out exactly what it is you find problematic in my opinion? A lawyer in a nation that has no law. This is interesting.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Seh Fah – 139
I don’t think that those red shirt leaders appointed to government positions will be seduced by the attractions of power into losing interest in Article 112 and its abuse, but if they do, it is my firm belief that the UDD will soon make their displeasure known.
For those who have the opportunity, I would suggest a visit to the red shirts’ headquarters in Bangkok’s northern suburbs. This would quickly dispel many of the widespread misconceptions regarding this movement, and reveal its true nature, its resilience and determination. I’m not suggesting they are all angels, infallible or above criticism, but they are here to stay.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
billyd is calling for imaginative protests but the prosecutors of lese majeste can get pretty imaginative too. Here’s a statement about their methodology from Yanaphol Youngyuen, one of the heroic pursuers of Anthony Chai
“They might use some tactics to conceal their intention. For example, they might send an email forward embedding a massage that…. ‘we can’t stand this person condemning the king…’ but it was actually the distribution of insulting message. That’s one of their various tactics.”
http://blogs.channelnewsasia.com/anasuya-sanyal/2010/08/17/transcript-of-interview-with-yanaphon-youngyuen-deputy-director-general-department-of-special-investigation-dsi/
So you can say something in support of the monarchy and they will read it as meaning the opposite. That’s imaginative.
It’s nice to know that the witch-finder generals at the DSI are also capable of reading through people’s actual words and deeds into their concealed intentions. Mind readers.
Prachatai trial update
р╕Ир╕│р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Й р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕н р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Ир╕│ ?
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Vichai N #26
Just to put things in perspective, civilian casualties in the southern border provinces since the separatist insurgency escalated sharply in January 2004 now exceed the combined total of civilian casualties during the Malayan Emergency (1948-1960) and the Troubles in Northern Ireland (1969-1998).
And the top priority for Yingluck and the Phuea Thai regime (forget about the UDD and Red Shirts, they’re no longer relevant) is the pardon for Thaksin, who according to Chalerm didn’t actually commit any crime because Photjaman didn’t actually buy the land. Top marks for Legal Loopholes 101.
Home in time for the wedding.
Thai royal and the Magic Castle
Andrew Marshall 18: That’s interview’s really worth a read.
Yanaphon Yongyuen on the subject of why people become republican:
“Another group was those who are mentally ill … Some have hallucinations, or are dreaming that some (officers) are bad,”
Like for instance hallucinating that a Thai official visited them in the US and pressured them for “gifts” of ipods”?
And the official starring in Mr Chai’s hallucination was?
Take a bow Khun Yanaphon.
http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/08/thai-dissident-strikes-back-at-snitch-web-host.ars
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Ricky #133
Now that the most important UDD and Red Shirt leaders have been rewarded with political appointments and have effectively become part of the government, I suspect that their interest in Article 112 and its abuse by the powers that be will dissipate very quickly.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Ralph Kramden #132
Apart from Oliver Jufer in 2007 and Harry Nicolaides in 2008/2009, when I was living in Bangkok, I’m not aware of any other cases of Farangs being charged with lese majeste. If anyone has details of any other cases, please share them.
As far as Oliver and Harry were concerned, there was no need to try any approach other than diplomatic negotiation because the desired outcomes were achieved very quickly, given the usual glacial pace of the Thai legal system. How long did it take Chalerm to get his little boy off the murder charge?
Open letter to Yingluck on lese majeste
Priority no. 1 of the Yingluck/PeauThai/Red Shirts regime is: GET THAT PARDON FOR BELOVED LEADER THAKSIN, OK?
Any action by Yingluck/PeauThai Party towards amending/abolishing the LM laws would be counter-productively distract against priority no. 1, e.g., it will be a big No No.
Open letters to Yingluck are fruitless. Open letters to Thaksin make more sense.