I know you weren’t joking about the mixed up by Thai people of those events, but you put an emphasize into the issue and seem to focus on the people who might not be academics on these issues, while you give farangs credit for knowing their own history. I wonder how many farangs in Australia know what role the Governor General of Australia plays here.
The only comments that I could spot showing any sympathy for the people involved came from Roy Batty. Good on you Roy.
Reading the letter makes me a little less inclined to wish for the Nepalese solution or to take it further a period under Pol Pot.
There is good news there. The story quashes one rumor namely that the children of Sia Oh had disappeared in England and perhaps he had had them done away with.
I do hope that somebody is writing a book – “The Prince Ever Flies” for those interested in modern royal politics.
Oh, my comment is too complicated for you…I thought I’ve already answered your point.
OK, let’s try to be direct…
‘And no, smiling was not part of our culture until very recently’ – Tarrin.
Why very recently? educate me, Tarrin – (or Farangs just recently told you so?).
Good to know ‘taking our top off’ is a part of our culture….not the smile! Tell that to a farang who tried to study/interpret the meanings of Thai smiles.
Tarrin @ Jesse
‘I was not joking about many Thais couldn’t even separate the two days apart.’ – Tarrin.
So, you were joking when you said ‘many “farang” can pretty much retract all the event from the beginning till the end with accuracy’?
I am sorry but the US has intervened on many many occasions on behalf of murderers, rapists etc if they are linked to the US military or security services. Ask the Japanese, the Koreans, Filipinos, Pakistanis about this. Probably about a dozen examples in total.
It is clear to me that they have gone for the line of saying as little as possible while continuing to deal with things in “private” (or, what is usually known as in “secret”) where they are beyond the reach of accountability and transparency, because of the pernicious influence of Ben Zawacki and Amnesty. Unfortunately, Amnesty give the USA (and other embassies) a perfect get out clause on LM. But AI’s “say as little as possible while having secret discussions” is a complete and total failure. This policy has taken place against a backdrop of the largest increase in LM cases in Thailand’s history.
The US Amb Kenney is also clearly far more interested in hosting parties and taking part in absolutely tacky photo shoots for the ridiculous Tatler Thailand than engaging with serious issues such as a US national being incarcerated in a Thai prison for exercising his right to freedom of expression in the US. The Embassy/State Department are also far keener to maintain their long-term relationship with the incredibly anti-democratic Thai military than they would ever seek to align themselves with genuine pro-democracy elements in Thai society.
The US are an obvious part of the problem in Thailand.
How they’ve been able to get away with this with such little comment is incredible (the CP’s 737, what his kids allegedly think of him etc etc is just tabloid crap in comparison).
On ASTV today, former air marshall Prasong Sunsiri casually mentioned that given current opposing viewpoints and power ploys by Thaksin, whatever happens in November will happen.
Thanks Tossaporn. If you, or anyone else, would like to provide a summary of Surapong’s presentation, we would be very happy to host it here.Our turf is open to all.
Andrew, you are not academic, you are an activist. If you are an academic, you wouldn’t have started this thread. Accept it, you are angry because someone on the opposite side of your thinking have managed to intrude on your turf, ANU. And you are not part of it.
Other academics and Thai experts in ANU that I’ve talk to (you know who they are, Andrew) welcomed this event eventhough some of them may have disagreed with Surapong’s actions. But they don’t express their outcry and “cajoling” (using your term) other people like you are doing now on this website.
The Thai students “were not” summoned. We were invited by the Thai students’ association. I am a Thai government official on a government funded scholarship at ANU and was there on my own will. Nobody can summone me.
I don’t agree with a lot of things Surapong said during the meeting and some issues he said even annoyed me and made me angry, but I still respect his views. I can made my own judgement on what is best for Thailand.
One other thing, Surapong did not refer to you by name or say any thing impolite at all. He did not even directly criticised anyone at ANU or New Mandala. As a matter of fact, he was quite polite and humbled. I was a bit disappointed because I was expecting a more colourful and exciting presentation, given his reputation. I think you are exaggerating or your student sources are.
I was not going to post a comment on this website anymore, given my previous bad experience with the negative responses from all the regulars here. But on this thread, I have to say something because I was there and you, Andrew, were not there and are not telling the whole truth and even painted some colors into the story. Yes, I’m accusing you. Like it or not, I don’t care.
I don’t really get what you are trying to say here. My point is, what does it take to be “expert” about Thailand study. And no, smiling was not part of our culture until very recently, if you want to get technical about “our culture” then we shouldn’t be wearing our top because that was Thai culture.
Really, is “smiling” the answer to everything?
Jesse – 20
I was not prejudice against my people, I was just making a point that it is just shallow to disregard an argument just because that person was suspect not to understand “Thais” enough. Moreover, I was not joking about many Thais couldn’t even separate the two days apart.
Thais often state that farangs don’t understand Thailand. Even for those that have lived there for decades and speak the language fluently, only Thais have the expanded intellect to understand their own culture, not that this is ever used as an excuse to cover inappropriate behavior of course.
The bureaucracy in Thailand often has their own agenda at odds to that of the government of the day, just look at 3G. The police tend to implement what ever immigration regulations that appeal to them, the army decides its own foreign policy and has a liking for coups. For a bureaucrat to rubbish Taksin is hardly surprising, at worst he could be transferred to an inactive post with full salary and benefits.
I am delighted my observations have generated a far more interesting discussion than any had at ICTS!
And I think I missed the boat: There should have serious lobbying of the 700+ participants to issue a statement on behalf of ICTS in support of academics charged for political crimes, notably Ajarn Somsak.
It has been my lifelong view as an educator that our job is to change the world for the better no matter where we happen to be.
“Thailand has a completely different history, culture, traditions and set of rules governing acceptable behavior”
For once I agree with Soonuk Dum.
(A few notorious examples which come to mind are 18 or more coups in 80 years and nearly as many constitutions, 3 people executed for the R8 death, and lets not forget the hundreds of protesters massacred just because they dared to want democracy)
Some of the points made on this thread (and on others) criticising academic claims to expertise are reasonable. The academic world is sometimes overly preoccupied with standard measures of excellence such as academic journal publications (often in journals that have a very small and very specialist readership). Indeed, one of our primary goals in establishing New Mandala was to extend academic discussion of mainland southeast Asia to a much broader audience and involve many more voices in these debates. Based on the regular feedback we get from readers in Australia, Southeast Asia and other parts of the world, I think we have been relatively successful in this. I know some of you may not believe this, but we really do welcome contributions from all points of view.
But some of the criticisms of academics expressed here are way off the mark. Jesse suggests that academics in Australia are not involved in commenting critically on Australian social issues. Seriously? Soonuk Dum suggests we are “regurgitating the rubbish that Thailand is engaged in class struggle of noble Prai against evil Amart”. No doubt some contributors to New Mandala would frame their arguments (roughly) in these terms. But I don’t, nor do I think this is anything close to a majority opinion among academic commentators on Thailand. The main thrust of my commentary over the past few years has been to reject such an argument. I am much more interested in the new politics of “middle-income peasants” who are supported by the state rather than the old “prai” who struggle against it. I doubt I have ever used the terms “prai” and “amart” in my writing (either here on New Mandala or in other places) except to note that some have framed political divisions in these terms. So, Soonuk, who are you arguing against here?
Criticism of academics, and academic argument, is very welcome on New Mandala. But it would be good to focus the criticism on specific arguments that specific people have actually made, rather than create imaginary foes.
I don’t know ‘how many years’, Tarrin. Just wanted to share some stories for you and your friends….to think….
Oh, I asked my Farang friends about the 6th & 14th Oct to test your claim (hypothesis?) – ‘while many “farang” can pretty much retract all the event from the beginning till the end with accuracy’. They seemed to have no cue at all….very disappointed…. Should I ask NM commentators or my Farang neighbours, Tarrin? I may get a better response.
Tarrin, when I read your comment I start smiling 🙂
When I, as a Thai, smile, it doesn’t mean I like or am happy with your comment.
Perhaps, I tried to cover up my embarrassment for posting the comment above…. or maybe I was too nervous or didn’t know how to answer your question (and this, again, according to a Farang expert on Thai smile).
Don’t forget to smile, Tarrin. It is a part of your culture…..(if you have not already forgotten it)
“While many “farang” can pretty much retract all the event from the beginning till the end with accuracy.”
I think you are the one with prejudice against your own people. You might be thinking about the Thai people who are not very well educated about its history against Farangs who are well educated about the subject matter.
Perhaps you can try asking Farangs in Australia to sing their national anthem and you will be shocked to find out that many of them don’t even know the words !
[…] (and hence Islamic) supremacy. Anyone who might threaten this arrangement is targeted for UMNO's harassment and intimidation. And when this fails, more direct measures are commonly employed. There's a reason why an […]
Well, I just want to add some points that came to my mind while reading some authors’ wailing on these pages…
1. The quality of the conference largely depends on the individual papers presented. Judging from the repeated extension of the application deadline there were probably not so many presenters willing to go to Nakhon Pathom and selecting the “better ones” would have been an encroachment on freedom of expression – one of those core values people on NM frequently claim to defend. (Even though some presentations necessitated a great deal of stamina for sure – we should consider that as a form of occupational hazard…)
2. May I remind people around that Thai Studies comprises all fields of research? Who are you to decide that let’s say the cargo of a 400 year old shipwreck should be less important in the long run for the discipline in general than just another heated argument on shirt-colours and royalty, which adds nothing new anyway? Public uproar and noise might be useful in discussions in Anglophone societies, but they are definitively inappropriate at an academic conference that is meant to cover all aspects of Thai and Southeast Asian Cultures… Trumpeting is not a mode of conversation – especially not in the host country and definitively not efficient in influencing public opinion positively anywhere else too.
3. I agree with Roger on every point he made and his assessment of matters important and those of irrelevance.
4. The staff of Mahidol University has worked hard for the success of the conference; we should indeed be thankful that a famous university accepted the responsibility to organize such an event and to offer this kind of forum for a great variety of panels – well done.
I have been reading the posts about the US government’s ability to help a US citizen in cases such as this. My UK passport specifically mentions that the UK government cannot assist in cases where a person of dual nationality has a problem in a country where one is a nationaal of that country. In other words, if a UK citizen with dual nationality, the other nationality being Thai, commits an offence in Thailand the UK government cannot assist or interfere.
In this case, Joe Gordon’s case, the US is in a similar position. They cannot interfere in the Thai government’s decision to prosecute a Thai national in Thailand.
Everyone is talking about how unfair this is…….but……. he is a Thai narional who knew what he was doing. Every Thai knows that it is an offence yet not only did he break the law he returned to Thailand knowing he broke the law and would be arrested. Everyone has the right to break the law but also must face the consequences. Just becaise someone disagrees with a law it doesn’t mean it is OK to flout it and avoid the consequences.
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Surapong Jayanama down under
Tarrin 25
I know you weren’t joking about the mixed up by Thai people of those events, but you put an emphasize into the issue and seem to focus on the people who might not be academics on these issues, while you give farangs credit for knowing their own history. I wonder how many farangs in Australia know what role the Governor General of Australia plays here.
Crown Prince’s family update?
Slow me has only just caught up on this amazing story. Why dont I get notified about new posts on NM ?
A rather sad story about 4 boys from a highly dysfunctional family and certainly not all fake if one can believe this website:
http://www.goldbergsegalla.com/attorneys/vacharaesorn-vivacharawongse
The only comments that I could spot showing any sympathy for the people involved came from Roy Batty. Good on you Roy.
Reading the letter makes me a little less inclined to wish for the Nepalese solution or to take it further a period under Pol Pot.
There is good news there. The story quashes one rumor namely that the children of Sia Oh had disappeared in England and perhaps he had had them done away with.
I do hope that somebody is writing a book – “The Prince Ever Flies” for those interested in modern royal politics.
Surapong Jayanama down under
@ Tarrin – 24
Oh, my comment is too complicated for you…I thought I’ve already answered your point.
OK, let’s try to be direct…
‘And no, smiling was not part of our culture until very recently’ – Tarrin.
Why very recently? educate me, Tarrin – (or Farangs just recently told you so?).
Good to know ‘taking our top off’ is a part of our culture….not the smile! Tell that to a farang who tried to study/interpret the meanings of Thai smiles.
Tarrin @ Jesse
‘I was not joking about many Thais couldn’t even separate the two days apart.’ – Tarrin.
So, you were joking when you said ‘many “farang” can pretty much retract all the event from the beginning till the end with accuracy’?
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Peter
I am sorry but the US has intervened on many many occasions on behalf of murderers, rapists etc if they are linked to the US military or security services. Ask the Japanese, the Koreans, Filipinos, Pakistanis about this. Probably about a dozen examples in total.
It is clear to me that they have gone for the line of saying as little as possible while continuing to deal with things in “private” (or, what is usually known as in “secret”) where they are beyond the reach of accountability and transparency, because of the pernicious influence of Ben Zawacki and Amnesty. Unfortunately, Amnesty give the USA (and other embassies) a perfect get out clause on LM. But AI’s “say as little as possible while having secret discussions” is a complete and total failure. This policy has taken place against a backdrop of the largest increase in LM cases in Thailand’s history.
The US Amb Kenney is also clearly far more interested in hosting parties and taking part in absolutely tacky photo shoots for the ridiculous Tatler Thailand than engaging with serious issues such as a US national being incarcerated in a Thai prison for exercising his right to freedom of expression in the US. The Embassy/State Department are also far keener to maintain their long-term relationship with the incredibly anti-democratic Thai military than they would ever seek to align themselves with genuine pro-democracy elements in Thai society.
The US are an obvious part of the problem in Thailand.
How they’ve been able to get away with this with such little comment is incredible (the CP’s 737, what his kids allegedly think of him etc etc is just tabloid crap in comparison).
Surapong Jayanama down under
On ASTV today, former air marshall Prasong Sunsiri casually mentioned that given current opposing viewpoints and power ploys by Thaksin, whatever happens in November will happen.
Regina, Canada, Burma
Stephen, I’m glad to read your sound remarks to this post; I concur.
Tony
Surapong Jayanama down under
Thanks Tossaporn. If you, or anyone else, would like to provide a summary of Surapong’s presentation, we would be very happy to host it here.Our turf is open to all.
Surapong Jayanama down under
Andrew, you are not academic, you are an activist. If you are an academic, you wouldn’t have started this thread. Accept it, you are angry because someone on the opposite side of your thinking have managed to intrude on your turf, ANU. And you are not part of it.
Other academics and Thai experts in ANU that I’ve talk to (you know who they are, Andrew) welcomed this event eventhough some of them may have disagreed with Surapong’s actions. But they don’t express their outcry and “cajoling” (using your term) other people like you are doing now on this website.
The Thai students “were not” summoned. We were invited by the Thai students’ association. I am a Thai government official on a government funded scholarship at ANU and was there on my own will. Nobody can summone me.
I don’t agree with a lot of things Surapong said during the meeting and some issues he said even annoyed me and made me angry, but I still respect his views. I can made my own judgement on what is best for Thailand.
One other thing, Surapong did not refer to you by name or say any thing impolite at all. He did not even directly criticised anyone at ANU or New Mandala. As a matter of fact, he was quite polite and humbled. I was a bit disappointed because I was expecting a more colourful and exciting presentation, given his reputation. I think you are exaggerating or your student sources are.
I was not going to post a comment on this website anymore, given my previous bad experience with the negative responses from all the regulars here. But on this thread, I have to say something because I was there and you, Andrew, were not there and are not telling the whole truth and even painted some colors into the story. Yes, I’m accusing you. Like it or not, I don’t care.
Surapong Jayanama down under
Nawat – 21
I don’t really get what you are trying to say here. My point is, what does it take to be “expert” about Thailand study. And no, smiling was not part of our culture until very recently, if you want to get technical about “our culture” then we shouldn’t be wearing our top because that was Thai culture.
Really, is “smiling” the answer to everything?
Jesse – 20
I was not prejudice against my people, I was just making a point that it is just shallow to disregard an argument just because that person was suspect not to understand “Thais” enough. Moreover, I was not joking about many Thais couldn’t even separate the two days apart.
Surapong Jayanama down under
Thais often state that farangs don’t understand Thailand. Even for those that have lived there for decades and speak the language fluently, only Thais have the expanded intellect to understand their own culture, not that this is ever used as an excuse to cover inappropriate behavior of course.
The bureaucracy in Thailand often has their own agenda at odds to that of the government of the day, just look at 3G. The police tend to implement what ever immigration regulations that appeal to them, the army decides its own foreign policy and has a liking for coups. For a bureaucrat to rubbish Taksin is hardly surprising, at worst he could be transferred to an inactive post with full salary and benefits.
No passion at ICTS11
I am delighted my observations have generated a far more interesting discussion than any had at ICTS!
And I think I missed the boat: There should have serious lobbying of the 700+ participants to issue a statement on behalf of ICTS in support of academics charged for political crimes, notably Ajarn Somsak.
It has been my lifelong view as an educator that our job is to change the world for the better no matter where we happen to be.
Surapong Jayanama down under
“Thailand has a completely different history, culture, traditions and set of rules governing acceptable behavior”
For once I agree with Soonuk Dum.
(A few notorious examples which come to mind are 18 or more coups in 80 years and nearly as many constitutions, 3 people executed for the R8 death, and lets not forget the hundreds of protesters massacred just because they dared to want democracy)
Surapong Jayanama down under
Some of the points made on this thread (and on others) criticising academic claims to expertise are reasonable. The academic world is sometimes overly preoccupied with standard measures of excellence such as academic journal publications (often in journals that have a very small and very specialist readership). Indeed, one of our primary goals in establishing New Mandala was to extend academic discussion of mainland southeast Asia to a much broader audience and involve many more voices in these debates. Based on the regular feedback we get from readers in Australia, Southeast Asia and other parts of the world, I think we have been relatively successful in this. I know some of you may not believe this, but we really do welcome contributions from all points of view.
But some of the criticisms of academics expressed here are way off the mark. Jesse suggests that academics in Australia are not involved in commenting critically on Australian social issues. Seriously? Soonuk Dum suggests we are “regurgitating the rubbish that Thailand is engaged in class struggle of noble Prai against evil Amart”. No doubt some contributors to New Mandala would frame their arguments (roughly) in these terms. But I don’t, nor do I think this is anything close to a majority opinion among academic commentators on Thailand. The main thrust of my commentary over the past few years has been to reject such an argument. I am much more interested in the new politics of “middle-income peasants” who are supported by the state rather than the old “prai” who struggle against it. I doubt I have ever used the terms “prai” and “amart” in my writing (either here on New Mandala or in other places) except to note that some have framed political divisions in these terms. So, Soonuk, who are you arguing against here?
Criticism of academics, and academic argument, is very welcome on New Mandala. But it would be good to focus the criticism on specific arguments that specific people have actually made, rather than create imaginary foes.
Thai food: Universally delicious?
Should have been Kerri, not Kerry. Sorry.
Surapong Jayanama down under
@Soonuk – 18
Points taken!
@ Tarrin – 19
I don’t know ‘how many years’, Tarrin. Just wanted to share some stories for you and your friends….to think….
Oh, I asked my Farang friends about the 6th & 14th Oct to test your claim (hypothesis?) – ‘while many “farang” can pretty much retract all the event from the beginning till the end with accuracy’. They seemed to have no cue at all….very disappointed…. Should I ask NM commentators or my Farang neighbours, Tarrin? I may get a better response.
Tarrin, when I read your comment I start smiling 🙂
When I, as a Thai, smile, it doesn’t mean I like or am happy with your comment.
Perhaps, I tried to cover up my embarrassment for posting the comment above…. or maybe I was too nervous or didn’t know how to answer your question (and this, again, according to a Farang expert on Thai smile).
Don’t forget to smile, Tarrin. It is a part of your culture…..(if you have not already forgotten it)
Red thumbs, pleaseee…. 🙂
Surapong Jayanama down under
Tarrin 19
“While many “farang” can pretty much retract all the event from the beginning till the end with accuracy.”
I think you are the one with prejudice against your own people. You might be thinking about the Thai people who are not very well educated about its history against Farangs who are well educated about the subject matter.
Perhaps you can try asking Farangs in Australia to sing their national anthem and you will be shocked to find out that many of them don’t even know the words !
UMNO – Malaysia’s scourge
[…] (and hence Islamic) supremacy. Anyone who might threaten this arrangement is targeted for UMNO's harassment and intimidation. And when this fails, more direct measures are commonly employed. There's a reason why an […]
No passion at ICTS11
Well, I just want to add some points that came to my mind while reading some authors’ wailing on these pages…
1. The quality of the conference largely depends on the individual papers presented. Judging from the repeated extension of the application deadline there were probably not so many presenters willing to go to Nakhon Pathom and selecting the “better ones” would have been an encroachment on freedom of expression – one of those core values people on NM frequently claim to defend. (Even though some presentations necessitated a great deal of stamina for sure – we should consider that as a form of occupational hazard…)
2. May I remind people around that Thai Studies comprises all fields of research? Who are you to decide that let’s say the cargo of a 400 year old shipwreck should be less important in the long run for the discipline in general than just another heated argument on shirt-colours and royalty, which adds nothing new anyway? Public uproar and noise might be useful in discussions in Anglophone societies, but they are definitively inappropriate at an academic conference that is meant to cover all aspects of Thai and Southeast Asian Cultures… Trumpeting is not a mode of conversation – especially not in the host country and definitively not efficient in influencing public opinion positively anywhere else too.
3. I agree with Roger on every point he made and his assessment of matters important and those of irrelevance.
4. The staff of Mahidol University has worked hard for the success of the conference; we should indeed be thankful that a famous university accepted the responsibility to organize such an event and to offer this kind of forum for a great variety of panels – well done.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
I have been reading the posts about the US government’s ability to help a US citizen in cases such as this. My UK passport specifically mentions that the UK government cannot assist in cases where a person of dual nationality has a problem in a country where one is a nationaal of that country. In other words, if a UK citizen with dual nationality, the other nationality being Thai, commits an offence in Thailand the UK government cannot assist or interfere.
In this case, Joe Gordon’s case, the US is in a similar position. They cannot interfere in the Thai government’s decision to prosecute a Thai national in Thailand.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Everyone is talking about how unfair this is…….but……. he is a Thai narional who knew what he was doing. Every Thai knows that it is an offence yet not only did he break the law he returned to Thailand knowing he broke the law and would be arrested. Everyone has the right to break the law but also must face the consequences. Just becaise someone disagrees with a law it doesn’t mean it is OK to flout it and avoid the consequences.