I wonder if the fact that he is considered a Thai citizen will lower his chances of getting a royal pardon. Hopefully not, as many foreigners charged under Article 112 have been successfully pardoned after conviction. That may be his only hope, as it looks like the U.S. Embassy is not interested in helping him. It is sad that this draconian law still exists, and it is ever sadder that it is often used by the Thai establishment as a political weapon to silence dissidents.
As Gordon’s case shows, foreigners now need to be extremely careful about when discussing anything related to the Thai royal family, especially when doing it online. Any foreigner in trouble over lese-majeste in Thailand should immediately contact their embassy and hire a Thailand Lawyer that will take their case.
Dear Srithanonchai,
thanks for the citation! I agree with your comment that establishment(s) are searching for new form of politics. At least some are aware that they cannot follow the old post-colonial pattern. The citation of Chai-Anan indicates for me the strength of a “neo-romantic” stream that has spread from the NGO (the answer is in the villages etc. and culture and community approaches) to royalty and Chai-Anan, while it has lost its apeal to Sulak and others who invented in the first place. Thai neo-romantisism is as much as former european romatisism an escape from reality. The village and sufficiency economy as well as suffiency politics as Thai-Hyper-Reality?
I attended the conference and really appreciated the hard work of the organisers. Your presentation was excellent and very thorough. I hope we can move forward to the continuing event such as this one.
I talked to the organisers from RMIT (Dr.Nattavud Pimpa and Professor Brian Corbitt) and truly appreciate their inputs to this event. On Friday, the conference was attended by over 60 participants and some presentations on Thai migrants in Australia, Languages and culture and poverty in Thailand are excellent.
Dr.Pimpa and Prof.Corbitt ignited the idea of re-uniting scholars around Australia to promote bonds among Australia and South East Asia.
This is not only about Sonthi Lim. Suvit is by no means a follower of him in the simple sense. Rather, his statement reflects an important stream of thought in the establishment (aphichon, ammat). They “are desperately seeking an alternative to the current brand of politics” (Suthichai Yoon expressing his feelings in The Nation of August 11). They see the Democrats’ failure as “betrayal” (Suthichai) of their hopes, because they don’t quite know how they can achieve their goals against the voting power of the “rural hordes” (Bangkok Post). Since the PAD/Sonthi are too obscure, moralistic and extreme to them, the Democrats had been their main practical hope for initiating political change.
For quite a different perspective on the “middle-income gap,” see the following quote.
“One part of immunization is to protect the communities from the capitalist system entering and destroying them. The capitalist democracy turns out to be dangerous for the villagers, which we can see from villagers being dependent on fertilizer, pesticides, and credit from both inside and outside the system. Those villagers that could escape from these dangers have invariably returned to natural agriculture, and reduced their involvement with the market. They look for ways to grow plants and raise livestock for their living. The sufficiency economy rejects the capitalist system. The creation of strong communities does not start with democratic community structures. Rather, they start with joining simple activities and relying on themselves. …, relying on the market as little as possible. Creating and supporting sufficiency democracy means to emancipate the people so that they are free from the patronage of a political system that uses populist policies as a tool. At the community level, sufficiency democracy can occur.”
Well, now at least you speak with logic and not behaving like a twenty-something DAP cyber trooper.
I was a GLC scholar too but I have spent my days both overseas and locally. As such I believe I see a more balanced perspective instead of relying on the “news” reported my the likes of MI, Mkini,etc.
Let me assure you that I share your concerns of corruptions and the patronage politics. I know, perhaps better than you, on the ground level impacts. I also understand the real impact of NEP, and not just what reported by on line or MSM.
However, I don’t think PKR or DAP are any better than UMNO/BN in corruption or patronage as seen in their 3 years rule. They have not demonstrated that they are any better and this is just 3 years. Give them a few more years, they might well over take BN.
As for PAS, I understand their mindsets well, having attended their ceramahs since my uni days (thanks to my Malay looking appearance) and I know they are not the modernist party they would like us non Muslims to believe. While not materially corrupted, they are even more dangerous as they will destroy the country with their fundamentalist policies.
As such, while I am well aware of the shortcomings of BN, I have yet to see any credible alternative to them yet. Also I am encouraged by Najib’s transformation and reforms. While these might not be far reaching as we would like to, but without the requisite political mandate he would not able to push hard. I see the democratic space being expanded and anti corruption efforts being ramped up.
However, the Opposition is not helping by their constant undermining and mischief making. You can accuse BN of political motives in sodomy 2 but this is does not mean Anwar’s is not guilty. Also much of BN’s reactions are due to attacks by PR. For example no party with good ethics will use TBH, Altantunya and other race issues to attack BN, with the help of the rabid on-line media. Anwar’s Sept 16 plan was also another reason for BN’s charging him for Sodomy 2 I believe.
The record of PR in managing the 4 states not really brilliant, as you can see. So unless I can see a credible Opposition that can earn my respect, I will not vote for them.
Please remember that I am not a BN supporter but more of a neutral person. I did not support BN during Mahatir or Pak Lah. But as I see it now, Najib has done far more than PR to earn my respect.
In Thailand 112 is the section of the criminal code giving cruel and unusual punishment to people who a secret court decides have spoken ill of the monarchy.
7 29 are the first three digits the bar code of produce from the State of Israel which cruelly punishes and imprisons the gentiles of Palestine.
Around the world today thousands of people are participating in a campaign of Boycotts, Disinvestments and Sanctions against Isreal for its inhumanity. The same treatment might be coming for Thailand if it continues its military ties with Israel and continues to cruelly supress free speech?
Ben’s comment “It takes time and efforts from the crowd to scarp the lese majeste.” is one we should follow up on. Perhaps we should join with our Red Shirt friends and appear with plackards naming Lese Majeste victims and Censorship victims and demanding Yingluck stop being their jailer. How do we get advance notice of the PM’s itinerary?
Prime Minister Najib Tun Razak announced today the setting up of a parliamentary select committee on electoral reform to put to rest any suspicion that there is manipulation by the government in the country’s electoral process.
Najib said the committee, comprising government and opposition members, would have its first meeting on Wednesday and would discuss “everything that needs to be done” and reach a consensus on the matter.
This is more like it. You’ve raised valid points supported by valid arguments. Allow me to respond over the weekend as I will be at a conference for the next three days.
Productivity improvement in Thailand is stifled by a patronage system lead by monopolistic family centered businesses, coupled with an education system that denies its students creative and critical thinking which are integral to innovation and future expansion.
The ten percent of the population who control the economy have no foresight as they only are interested in short term profits so as to retain their foothold wherever they are operating their cliques.
What hope is there for Thailand when the new PM comes from one of these kind of families.
Link to an interesting FP piece by Robert D. Kaplan on the potential for conflict between ascendent expanding China and other players in the South China Sea:
I think it is a little like the censorship happening in China. It takes time and efforts from the crowd to scarp the lese majeste. I look forward to seeing the day when people can enjoy the academic freedom in Thailand and people can freely comment on what they see every day.
Thank you for this short but substantial summary. As in the case this said conference, I was not able to attend the International Conference on Thai Studies at Chula which occured late last month. Would anyone who sees my comment know if a summary of Chulalongkorn’s 11th International Conference on Thai Studies has been prepared and made available to the public (I’d like to see what I missed there too!)?
Thanks,
Tony
The article by Suvit Maesince was quite interesting. At least it indicated that most problems are interlinked. One simple way out of the dilemma that the middle income groups have to finance populist policies would be to implement tax laws and/or increase the taxes for the rich! A way to improve the economic basics would be to shift investment into unproductive sectors like real estate and other speculations into productive sectors like industries and manufacturing. One way might be state support combined with taxing profits from speculation. Korea and Taiwan followed this way.
A lot of economic development in Thailand (as well as Malaysia and Singapore) was not due to improved productivity, as f.e. Krugmann indicated (Not tigers but fat cats). Thus, productivity improvement would be crucial. For this education and sciences are relevant as well as investment in R and D by the private sector. Unfortunately these do not provide rapid and high profits! Furthermore, they require business and intellectual skills as well as resources. Do those who make decisions (which are not necessarily the politicians) have such skills?
I had a chance to observe a meeting between the organisers and Thai Embassy. From what I saw, they really worked hard and had a good intention to organise the event that encouraged open discussion on Thai issues. Congratulations to the organisers and hope the conference will continue to be a venue for people who are interested in Thai studies.
Leah – thanks for posting that (if you hadn’t, I would have*). It certainly leaps out from an otherwise worthy/laudable (if also familiar) set of recommendations.
* I hadn’t thought of the Sondhi L stinger – but also wish I had. 🙂
I really like your “accusation of corruption etc etc without a shred of evidence” bit
One has to be blind / deaf and dumb (my apologies to the politically righteous) to not see or admit to corruption and the abuse of power in Malaysia. It is so blatant that it is indefensible. One does not have to be pro-opposition to see that. If you really believe that anyone who attacks the BN govt’s record of corruption and power abuse is simply pro-opposition, then I feel really, really sad for you.
For the record – I was a GLC scholarship holder and am eternally grateful for that help. I am not of the chosen race, and have worked internationally for more than 25+ years, then chose to return to Malaysia. It is still home, and I choose to ignore bottom dwellers like Perkasa and the likes. I am not pro-opposition but pro-logic and good governance.
I can see Malaysia going down the drain in 12-15 years time, when the petroleum resource cannot sustain the govt’s patronage and wastage anymore. (assuming the current BN govt is still in power) Even if PKR comes into power, it will be very difficult to dismantle the patronage system – given the fact that even an obviously educated person like yourself fails to see that excessive patronage is bad for the country.
I believe you are a BN, if not an UMNO member, so I suggest you talk with some UMNO technocrats and see what they think. You will be surprised by the fear they have with regards to the degradation that patronage has done to the Malay capacity for productive work.
“I don’t think the fact that Pheu Thai won decisively at the polls means much. Ultimately, Thailand might need to consider whether the system of one man, one vote is best for us or not.
I think that in the future, we will see more class warfare. It is the middle class that pays taxes, but it is the lower class that benefits from populist policies.”
At least someone is still taking Sonthi Lim seriously.
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FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
I wonder if the fact that he is considered a Thai citizen will lower his chances of getting a royal pardon. Hopefully not, as many foreigners charged under Article 112 have been successfully pardoned after conviction. That may be his only hope, as it looks like the U.S. Embassy is not interested in helping him. It is sad that this draconian law still exists, and it is ever sadder that it is often used by the Thai establishment as a political weapon to silence dissidents.
As Gordon’s case shows, foreigners now need to be extremely careful about when discussing anything related to the Thai royal family, especially when doing it online. Any foreigner in trouble over lese-majeste in Thailand should immediately contact their embassy and hire a Thailand Lawyer that will take their case.
Najib still an asset?
Good day Killer,
I would like to ask your opinion on a few issues before I formulate my response. Its meant to understand your perspectives on Malaysia.
(1) What is your opinion on the quality of Malaysia’s democracy?
(2) What is your opinion on the removal of Tun Salleh Abbas as Lord President (in 1988)?
(3) What is your opinion on Operasi Lalang (in 1987)?
(4) What do you think of Barisan Nasional’s stewardship of the Malaysian economy?
Thanks very much.
Thailand: an upper-middle income economy
Dear Srithanonchai,
thanks for the citation! I agree with your comment that establishment(s) are searching for new form of politics. At least some are aware that they cannot follow the old post-colonial pattern. The citation of Chai-Anan indicates for me the strength of a “neo-romantic” stream that has spread from the NGO (the answer is in the villages etc. and culture and community approaches) to royalty and Chai-Anan, while it has lost its apeal to Sulak and others who invented in the first place. Thai neo-romantisism is as much as former european romatisism an escape from reality. The village and sufficiency economy as well as suffiency politics as Thai-Hyper-Reality?
Unity is dead; long live coexistence
Andrew,
I attended the conference and really appreciated the hard work of the organisers. Your presentation was excellent and very thorough. I hope we can move forward to the continuing event such as this one.
I talked to the organisers from RMIT (Dr.Nattavud Pimpa and Professor Brian Corbitt) and truly appreciate their inputs to this event. On Friday, the conference was attended by over 60 participants and some presentations on Thai migrants in Australia, Languages and culture and poverty in Thailand are excellent.
Dr.Pimpa and Prof.Corbitt ignited the idea of re-uniting scholars around Australia to promote bonds among Australia and South East Asia.
One of the best academic conferences for 2011.
Thailand: an upper-middle income economy
Leah:
This is not only about Sonthi Lim. Suvit is by no means a follower of him in the simple sense. Rather, his statement reflects an important stream of thought in the establishment (aphichon, ammat). They “are desperately seeking an alternative to the current brand of politics” (Suthichai Yoon expressing his feelings in The Nation of August 11). They see the Democrats’ failure as “betrayal” (Suthichai) of their hopes, because they don’t quite know how they can achieve their goals against the voting power of the “rural hordes” (Bangkok Post). Since the PAD/Sonthi are too obscure, moralistic and extreme to them, the Democrats had been their main practical hope for initiating political change.
For quite a different perspective on the “middle-income gap,” see the following quote.
“One part of immunization is to protect the communities from the capitalist system entering and destroying them. The capitalist democracy turns out to be dangerous for the villagers, which we can see from villagers being dependent on fertilizer, pesticides, and credit from both inside and outside the system. Those villagers that could escape from these dangers have invariably returned to natural agriculture, and reduced their involvement with the market. They look for ways to grow plants and raise livestock for their living. The sufficiency economy rejects the capitalist system. The creation of strong communities does not start with democratic community structures. Rather, they start with joining simple activities and relying on themselves. …, relying on the market as little as possible. Creating and supporting sufficiency democracy means to emancipate the people so that they are free from the patronage of a political system that uses populist policies as a tool. At the community level, sufficiency democracy can occur.”
Chai-anand Samudavanija. 2011. “Prachathipattai baep phophiang (2)” [Sufficiency democracy]. ASTV Phuchatkan, August 8, 2011:12
Najib still an asset?
Dear Neptunian
Well, now at least you speak with logic and not behaving like a twenty-something DAP cyber trooper.
I was a GLC scholar too but I have spent my days both overseas and locally. As such I believe I see a more balanced perspective instead of relying on the “news” reported my the likes of MI, Mkini,etc.
Let me assure you that I share your concerns of corruptions and the patronage politics. I know, perhaps better than you, on the ground level impacts. I also understand the real impact of NEP, and not just what reported by on line or MSM.
However, I don’t think PKR or DAP are any better than UMNO/BN in corruption or patronage as seen in their 3 years rule. They have not demonstrated that they are any better and this is just 3 years. Give them a few more years, they might well over take BN.
As for PAS, I understand their mindsets well, having attended their ceramahs since my uni days (thanks to my Malay looking appearance) and I know they are not the modernist party they would like us non Muslims to believe. While not materially corrupted, they are even more dangerous as they will destroy the country with their fundamentalist policies.
As such, while I am well aware of the shortcomings of BN, I have yet to see any credible alternative to them yet. Also I am encouraged by Najib’s transformation and reforms. While these might not be far reaching as we would like to, but without the requisite political mandate he would not able to push hard. I see the democratic space being expanded and anti corruption efforts being ramped up.
However, the Opposition is not helping by their constant undermining and mischief making. You can accuse BN of political motives in sodomy 2 but this is does not mean Anwar’s is not guilty. Also much of BN’s reactions are due to attacks by PR. For example no party with good ethics will use TBH, Altantunya and other race issues to attack BN, with the help of the rabid on-line media. Anwar’s Sept 16 plan was also another reason for BN’s charging him for Sodomy 2 I believe.
The record of PR in managing the 4 states not really brilliant, as you can see. So unless I can see a credible Opposition that can earn my respect, I will not vote for them.
Please remember that I am not a BN supporter but more of a neutral person. I did not support BN during Mahatir or Pak Lah. But as I see it now, Najib has done far more than PR to earn my respect.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Why does 112 = 729 ?
In Thailand 112 is the section of the criminal code giving cruel and unusual punishment to people who a secret court decides have spoken ill of the monarchy.
7 29 are the first three digits the bar code of produce from the State of Israel which cruelly punishes and imprisons the gentiles of Palestine.
Around the world today thousands of people are participating in a campaign of Boycotts, Disinvestments and Sanctions against Isreal for its inhumanity. The same treatment might be coming for Thailand if it continues its military ties with Israel and continues to cruelly supress free speech?
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Ben’s comment “It takes time and efforts from the crowd to scarp the lese majeste.” is one we should follow up on. Perhaps we should join with our Red Shirt friends and appear with plackards naming Lese Majeste victims and Censorship victims and demanding Yingluck stop being their jailer. How do we get advance notice of the PM’s itinerary?
Electoral fraud in Malaysia – BERSIH calls for reforms
That’s more like it Najib! Well done.
Extract from “Najib Announces Parliamentary Select Committee on Electoral Reform” BERNAMA, 16 August 2011.
Najib still an asset?
@ Killer #13
This is more like it. You’ve raised valid points supported by valid arguments. Allow me to respond over the weekend as I will be at a conference for the next three days.
Thailand: an upper-middle income economy
Productivity improvement in Thailand is stifled by a patronage system lead by monopolistic family centered businesses, coupled with an education system that denies its students creative and critical thinking which are integral to innovation and future expansion.
The ten percent of the population who control the economy have no foresight as they only are interested in short term profits so as to retain their foothold wherever they are operating their cliques.
What hope is there for Thailand when the new PM comes from one of these kind of families.
Unity is dead; long live coexistence
Re comment 1 above, could this comment be appended as relevant to this thread? BTW, trying to be ironic….
nattavud pimpa // Aug 14, 2011 at 11:54 pm
Observer,
To observe is to become aware of through careful attention.
Oops! how ironic!
China’s achilles’ heels
Link to an interesting FP piece by Robert D. Kaplan on the potential for conflict between ascendent expanding China and other players in the South China Sea:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/08/15/the_south_china_sea_is_the_future_of_conflict?print=yes&hidecomments=yes&page=full
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
I think it is a little like the censorship happening in China. It takes time and efforts from the crowd to scarp the lese majeste. I look forward to seeing the day when people can enjoy the academic freedom in Thailand and people can freely comment on what they see every day.
Unity is dead; long live coexistence
Thank you for this short but substantial summary. As in the case this said conference, I was not able to attend the International Conference on Thai Studies at Chula which occured late last month. Would anyone who sees my comment know if a summary of Chulalongkorn’s 11th International Conference on Thai Studies has been prepared and made available to the public (I’d like to see what I missed there too!)?
Thanks,
Tony
Thailand: an upper-middle income economy
The article by Suvit Maesince was quite interesting. At least it indicated that most problems are interlinked. One simple way out of the dilemma that the middle income groups have to finance populist policies would be to implement tax laws and/or increase the taxes for the rich! A way to improve the economic basics would be to shift investment into unproductive sectors like real estate and other speculations into productive sectors like industries and manufacturing. One way might be state support combined with taxing profits from speculation. Korea and Taiwan followed this way.
A lot of economic development in Thailand (as well as Malaysia and Singapore) was not due to improved productivity, as f.e. Krugmann indicated (Not tigers but fat cats). Thus, productivity improvement would be crucial. For this education and sciences are relevant as well as investment in R and D by the private sector. Unfortunately these do not provide rapid and high profits! Furthermore, they require business and intellectual skills as well as resources. Do those who make decisions (which are not necessarily the politicians) have such skills?
Unity is dead; long live coexistence
I had a chance to observe a meeting between the organisers and Thai Embassy. From what I saw, they really worked hard and had a good intention to organise the event that encouraged open discussion on Thai issues. Congratulations to the organisers and hope the conference will continue to be a venue for people who are interested in Thai studies.
Thailand: an upper-middle income economy
c5
Leah – thanks for posting that (if you hadn’t, I would have*). It certainly leaps out from an otherwise worthy/laudable (if also familiar) set of recommendations.
* I hadn’t thought of the Sondhi L stinger – but also wish I had. 🙂
Najib still an asset?
Dear Killer,
I really like your “accusation of corruption etc etc without a shred of evidence” bit
One has to be blind / deaf and dumb (my apologies to the politically righteous) to not see or admit to corruption and the abuse of power in Malaysia. It is so blatant that it is indefensible. One does not have to be pro-opposition to see that. If you really believe that anyone who attacks the BN govt’s record of corruption and power abuse is simply pro-opposition, then I feel really, really sad for you.
For the record – I was a GLC scholarship holder and am eternally grateful for that help. I am not of the chosen race, and have worked internationally for more than 25+ years, then chose to return to Malaysia. It is still home, and I choose to ignore bottom dwellers like Perkasa and the likes. I am not pro-opposition but pro-logic and good governance.
I can see Malaysia going down the drain in 12-15 years time, when the petroleum resource cannot sustain the govt’s patronage and wastage anymore. (assuming the current BN govt is still in power) Even if PKR comes into power, it will be very difficult to dismantle the patronage system – given the fact that even an obviously educated person like yourself fails to see that excessive patronage is bad for the country.
I believe you are a BN, if not an UMNO member, so I suggest you talk with some UMNO technocrats and see what they think. You will be surprised by the fear they have with regards to the degradation that patronage has done to the Malay capacity for productive work.
Thailand: an upper-middle income economy
Srithanonchai,
Thanks. Loved this:
“I don’t think the fact that Pheu Thai won decisively at the polls means much. Ultimately, Thailand might need to consider whether the system of one man, one vote is best for us or not.
I think that in the future, we will see more class warfare. It is the middle class that pays taxes, but it is the lower class that benefits from populist policies.”
At least someone is still taking Sonthi Lim seriously.