While this article pays some attention to the reform of Vietnamese script, it should be noted that, in that script’s present form, spacing is used to differentiate syllables, and word boundaries are therefore not apparent.
Here’s a question: as the previous attempt at introducing ‘western practices’ of placing the vowel after the consonants and including spaces between the words was made by his majesty King Vajiravudh, does critizing it constitute Lese Majeste?
With Thaksin latest directive that any party list MP given a cabinet post must resign his MP seat the reason no UDD leaders were selected becomes obvious. When the inevitable re-shuffle happens in a few months, they would lose their ability as sitting MP’s to avoid a trial.
A government with common sense but which is too fearful to scrap the lese majeste law should at the very, very least set up an agency independent of the police where people go to file lese majeste complaints.
This agency could then recommend what it considers viable complaints to be taken to the police for possible prosecution, to prevent this situation whereby the police can apprehend anyone indefinitely on the vaguest complaint.
This is still prehistoric but it would at least be a small step in the right direction and show there is some genuine commitment to reform of this archaic law
“In this culture relationships “count for all” and merit and ability count for little.
This is changing with the increasing number of Thais who go to school/university overseas and can see that there are alternatives”
– In other words, Thai people will not have merit and ability until they become westernize ! Let’s all leave parents at the retirement homes and your kids roamed the streets at night causing mayhem and you might just have enough value !
Many people questioned Australia’s interest in Myanmar. The visit of Kevin Rudd’s visit to Myanmar attracted scant interests in Australia and hardly noticed internationally. One can’t help but think that going to Myanmar means getting as far away from Julia Gillard being worth the visit. Although it is interesting to note that Myanmar did rate Kevin Rudd’s visit high enough for him to received by its President.
Indexes can be applied in useful ways, as long as we use the index as it is, that is a simulacrum or hyper-reality, not as representation of reality.
@ Greg Lopez (3). If I would have the proper model to explain the questions you raise and for predictions, I would work as consultant for int. organizations and governments and earn a lot of money to retire in a villa in the Tessin.
The cases you list are of a quite different quality. The Tsunami as well as the earthquake etc. are cases of disasters, while the riots in UK are just that: riots. Disasters happen when institutions regulating everyday life lost their resilience, i.e. the disastrous event is outside of the scope of these institutions. Obviously, in New Orleans as well as in Japan we have institutional failures on the local and national level, probably due, in both cases, to economic and political interests as well as “informal” influences.
Barrington Moore and more recently James Scot follow the question why people revolt. Marx makes the important distinction, which I think is relevant for the UK, between revolts aiming at changes of society (like in Egypt, Tunisia, Syria and to some degree Libya) and brief riots (like a few years ago in Paris and now in the UK). In revolts states and elites have lost their legitimacy, alternative views exist and a level of organization exists that allows to push forward institutional change. Riots in contrast do neither challenge legitimacy, elites or institutions.
Turning to the case of Malaysia and Thailand, between which I see many similarities, we have a situation in which the post-colonial political-economic system and associated elites that evolved and consolidated after the 1960th is still struggling with the Asia crisis. The post-colonial political system was widely accepted not the least because it provided quite a lot of opportunities for social mobility, general improvement of living standard, consumption etc. The possibilities for personal achievements and enrichment limited interests in collective organising for enhanced political participation. The economic crisis indicated that the promises of improvement and mobility remain limited. The elites could maintain their riches, while others fell into decline. Thereby the crisis indicated that the political (and institutional) system is one-sided, favouring only the elites. Kind of “sacred” state-ideologies (only we can provide security, unity and order) lost their meanings, not the least because contradictions between the ideologies and what is happening became too obvious and could not be ignored even by the petty-bourgeoisie. Like, f.e. speaking of “law and order” while using the courts as means for political (and economic) interests. Nevertheless, the “states” remain quite strong, not the least because 1. the “repressive apparatus” still works quite well, 2. most people regard individual (not collective) strategies as best for them, and 3. riots bear a lot of individual risks, especially when we have a police and military that is less constricted as in the UK.
The similarity to disasters is that institutions can not fully cope with what is happening. The big difference is that neither in Malaysia nor in Thailand we can (yet) speak of complete failures. However, institutional change is necessary, as the post-colonial system does not work anymore. But, institutional change can have many different forms.
Concerning predictions J.M.Keynes once remarked: “In the long run we are all dead”.
Sam Deedes – There is hostility because any notion of language reform proposed by foreigners is rather condescending, regardless of its intent. There is no way around this. To my mind, how could even the most accomplished foreign scholar claim authority of judgement regarding this issue better than an educated native?
As for myself, I did not find the hurdles of written Thai as they appear to an English-speaker so difficult that I was unable to learn to overcome them. I know many others whom feel the same.
The idea that punctuation or any other reform is a necessary condition for the ‘reflection of increasingly complex discourse’, and that without it, written Thai would become in any way redundant is frankly ridiculous. Not only does Thai have its own system equivalent to punctutation as someone else on the original thread mentioned, but one only has to survey m0dern Thai journals such as SAMESKY and READ to see the versatility of expression that exists in the language’s capability to map out very modern discourses. And there is a relative wealth of new creative writing by Thais in their own language that reflects this equally. Also, read Thai chatroom threads.
Of course Thai, like any and every language, is highly subjective in terms of the cultural prejudices and many idiosynchrasies that shape how the native understands the world around them, or at least everything that the language provides a term for. Part of the joy of study for me is trying to penetrate these problems in both Thai and English.
Broadly speaking, there are no more limitations imposed on Thai by its script than on any western language, and to suggest otherwise is highly Eurocentric and quaintly colonial coming from western academics.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Thai script works perfectly well in its current form. Rather than try to change it into something closer to an English reader’s conception of how a written script should work, we should just learn it in its current form.
As for the two areas you believe could be addressed with positive effect:
(1) The duplicate consonants make it possible to differentiate such words of identical sound but different meaning as kha (servant), kha (value) and kha (to kill).
(2) The current system of tone rules, based on class of consonant, use of tone marker, length of vowel and nature of final consonant, is easy to apply once you’ve learned the rules.
Indexes are fairly blunt tools to describe the nuances of society.
I live in PNG and on most of those criteria this place must score very high indeed. Yet when I travel to Malaysia or Thailand they do not seem to me to be anywhere near to failure in comparison. They actually have a legal system that functions, even if not perfectly. They have far lower levels of violent crime. Social services that reach a majority of citizens. [Health care, education, transport infrastructure]. The government is in control of most of its territory, and corruption does not waste a majority of the national budget.
So it would seem that there is a whole world of difference between a score of say 68 or 78 and state failure.
“One of the most common is the loss of physical control of its territory or a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Other attributes of state failure include the erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions, an inability to provide reasonable public services, and the inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community”
Surely if these criteria are used, the USA is a failed state?
I would dearly love to know the reasons for the two negative votes to my innocuous comment #12. Throughout this debate there has been a sporadic undercurrent of hostility to the idea of Thai language reform, or am I being too sensitive? (See the introduction to the original post as to why it was first sent.)
There was a comment that being brought up to read separated Thai words would deny readers access to classic Thai texts written with joined up script. In this day and age this is hardly an issue. For example, Project Gutenberg is involved with digitizing and archiving cultural works in many languages, including Thai. The process of digitization could include separating out the Thai words. More work in the short term, but a benefit in the long term, in the context of a general move towards language reform.
@John: While I agree this smacks of betrayal, I’m not sure who has betrayed whom. Has PTP unilaterally sidelined its ‘red’ MPs? Did the red MPs agree to be sidelined in return for a fat white envelope, thereby betraying their own movement? Or are they just trying to avoid creating controversy until the ‘return of Thaksin’ issue is sorted out and will get their ministerial posts later?
They’ve got some pretty big promises to deliver. It would be an ugly if ironic outcome for anti-government protests to resume.
And what’s wrong with the “officeoftheministryofsillywalkscityofkrabi” ? It’s staffed by fine people who do an excellent job! And as a VERY average dumb farang, I find Thai much easier to read than English. At least there is a consistent relationship between sound and symbol which English is sadly lacking.
No, the blog whose link you give is not the one who made the letter public. When I first read the letter from a political website on 1 August, I checked Google and found this blog, it didn’t have the letter yet. Notice the date of the letter being posted, 3 August.
What’s interesting about the blog, however, is that it’s apparently maintained and joined by people who are fans of the family (the four brothers and their mother) and most of them seem to be living here too. I was surprised when I came across it, as not many people here would discuss the matter publicly, still less show public sympathy to the family. I gather from reading the blog and the comments there that the family has nothing to do with it.
@ HRK – agree with you that indexes are not scientific. Also agree with you that indexes can be used for propaganda. Hence the note that it is subjective. As for how this particular index is constructed, the FSI website has all the details.
What is of importance, from my perspective, is how do we anticipate the causes that will lead to state failure. Are there ways we can predict them? What are the theories?
As example – consider and compare the ongoing London riots with Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and the triple disaster in Japan (Tsunami, earthquake & nuclear meltdown). What is it about societies that make them behave in certain ways?
And in relation to Malaysia, what I would like to know is how will Malaysians react to say (i) the shooting of a citizen – which provided the catalyst for the riots in London; (ii) to subsidy cuts, rising cost of living & social disconnect which has been suggested by some quarters as the deeper reason for the youths that are leading these riots; (iii) to government corruption – an issue which is endemic in Malaysia.
If you could share your opinion on these, I’m sure NM readers and I would really appreciate it.
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Yingluck’s cabinet
this is the reversal of double standards that so many people campaigned and died for.
Find the gap
While this article pays some attention to the reform of Vietnamese script, it should be noted that, in that script’s present form, spacing is used to differentiate syllables, and word boundaries are therefore not apparent.
Find the gap
Here’s a question: as the previous attempt at introducing ‘western practices’ of placing the vowel after the consonants and including spaces between the words was made by his majesty King Vajiravudh, does critizing it constitute Lese Majeste?
Yingluck’s cabinet
With Thaksin latest directive that any party list MP given a cabinet post must resign his MP seat the reason no UDD leaders were selected becomes obvious. When the inevitable re-shuffle happens in a few months, they would lose their ability as sitting MP’s to avoid a trial.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
A government with common sense but which is too fearful to scrap the lese majeste law should at the very, very least set up an agency independent of the police where people go to file lese majeste complaints.
This agency could then recommend what it considers viable complaints to be taken to the police for possible prosecution, to prevent this situation whereby the police can apprehend anyone indefinitely on the vaguest complaint.
This is still prehistoric but it would at least be a small step in the right direction and show there is some genuine commitment to reform of this archaic law
Family business, Thai style
“In this culture relationships “count for all” and merit and ability count for little.
This is changing with the increasing number of Thais who go to school/university overseas and can see that there are alternatives”
– In other words, Thai people will not have merit and ability until they become westernize ! Let’s all leave parents at the retirement homes and your kids roamed the streets at night causing mayhem and you might just have enough value !
Kevin Rudd and Aung San Suu Kyi
Many people questioned Australia’s interest in Myanmar. The visit of Kevin Rudd’s visit to Myanmar attracted scant interests in Australia and hardly noticed internationally. One can’t help but think that going to Myanmar means getting as far away from Julia Gillard being worth the visit. Although it is interesting to note that Myanmar did rate Kevin Rudd’s visit high enough for him to received by its President.
Measuring failed states
Indexes can be applied in useful ways, as long as we use the index as it is, that is a simulacrum or hyper-reality, not as representation of reality.
@ Greg Lopez (3). If I would have the proper model to explain the questions you raise and for predictions, I would work as consultant for int. organizations and governments and earn a lot of money to retire in a villa in the Tessin.
The cases you list are of a quite different quality. The Tsunami as well as the earthquake etc. are cases of disasters, while the riots in UK are just that: riots. Disasters happen when institutions regulating everyday life lost their resilience, i.e. the disastrous event is outside of the scope of these institutions. Obviously, in New Orleans as well as in Japan we have institutional failures on the local and national level, probably due, in both cases, to economic and political interests as well as “informal” influences.
Barrington Moore and more recently James Scot follow the question why people revolt. Marx makes the important distinction, which I think is relevant for the UK, between revolts aiming at changes of society (like in Egypt, Tunisia, Syria and to some degree Libya) and brief riots (like a few years ago in Paris and now in the UK). In revolts states and elites have lost their legitimacy, alternative views exist and a level of organization exists that allows to push forward institutional change. Riots in contrast do neither challenge legitimacy, elites or institutions.
Turning to the case of Malaysia and Thailand, between which I see many similarities, we have a situation in which the post-colonial political-economic system and associated elites that evolved and consolidated after the 1960th is still struggling with the Asia crisis. The post-colonial political system was widely accepted not the least because it provided quite a lot of opportunities for social mobility, general improvement of living standard, consumption etc. The possibilities for personal achievements and enrichment limited interests in collective organising for enhanced political participation. The economic crisis indicated that the promises of improvement and mobility remain limited. The elites could maintain their riches, while others fell into decline. Thereby the crisis indicated that the political (and institutional) system is one-sided, favouring only the elites. Kind of “sacred” state-ideologies (only we can provide security, unity and order) lost their meanings, not the least because contradictions between the ideologies and what is happening became too obvious and could not be ignored even by the petty-bourgeoisie. Like, f.e. speaking of “law and order” while using the courts as means for political (and economic) interests. Nevertheless, the “states” remain quite strong, not the least because 1. the “repressive apparatus” still works quite well, 2. most people regard individual (not collective) strategies as best for them, and 3. riots bear a lot of individual risks, especially when we have a police and military that is less constricted as in the UK.
The similarity to disasters is that institutions can not fully cope with what is happening. The big difference is that neither in Malaysia nor in Thailand we can (yet) speak of complete failures. However, institutional change is necessary, as the post-colonial system does not work anymore. But, institutional change can have many different forms.
Concerning predictions J.M.Keynes once remarked: “In the long run we are all dead”.
Find the gap
Sam Deedes – There is hostility because any notion of language reform proposed by foreigners is rather condescending, regardless of its intent. There is no way around this. To my mind, how could even the most accomplished foreign scholar claim authority of judgement regarding this issue better than an educated native?
As for myself, I did not find the hurdles of written Thai as they appear to an English-speaker so difficult that I was unable to learn to overcome them. I know many others whom feel the same.
The idea that punctuation or any other reform is a necessary condition for the ‘reflection of increasingly complex discourse’, and that without it, written Thai would become in any way redundant is frankly ridiculous. Not only does Thai have its own system equivalent to punctutation as someone else on the original thread mentioned, but one only has to survey m0dern Thai journals such as SAMESKY and READ to see the versatility of expression that exists in the language’s capability to map out very modern discourses. And there is a relative wealth of new creative writing by Thais in their own language that reflects this equally. Also, read Thai chatroom threads.
Of course Thai, like any and every language, is highly subjective in terms of the cultural prejudices and many idiosynchrasies that shape how the native understands the world around them, or at least everything that the language provides a term for. Part of the joy of study for me is trying to penetrate these problems in both Thai and English.
Broadly speaking, there are no more limitations imposed on Thai by its script than on any western language, and to suggest otherwise is highly Eurocentric and quaintly colonial coming from western academics.
Find the gap
Sam Deedes #15
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Thai script works perfectly well in its current form. Rather than try to change it into something closer to an English reader’s conception of how a written script should work, we should just learn it in its current form.
As for the two areas you believe could be addressed with positive effect:
(1) The duplicate consonants make it possible to differentiate such words of identical sound but different meaning as kha (servant), kha (value) and kha (to kill).
(2) The current system of tone rules, based on class of consonant, use of tone marker, length of vowel and nature of final consonant, is easy to apply once you’ve learned the rules.
Measuring failed states
Indexes are fairly blunt tools to describe the nuances of society.
I live in PNG and on most of those criteria this place must score very high indeed. Yet when I travel to Malaysia or Thailand they do not seem to me to be anywhere near to failure in comparison. They actually have a legal system that functions, even if not perfectly. They have far lower levels of violent crime. Social services that reach a majority of citizens. [Health care, education, transport infrastructure]. The government is in control of most of its territory, and corruption does not waste a majority of the national budget.
So it would seem that there is a whole world of difference between a score of say 68 or 78 and state failure.
Measuring failed states
Quoted from the article:
“One of the most common is the loss of physical control of its territory or a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Other attributes of state failure include the erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions, an inability to provide reasonable public services, and the inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community”
Surely if these criteria are used, the USA is a failed state?
Find the gap
I would dearly love to know the reasons for the two negative votes to my innocuous comment #12. Throughout this debate there has been a sporadic undercurrent of hostility to the idea of Thai language reform, or am I being too sensitive? (See the introduction to the original post as to why it was first sent.)
There was a comment that being brought up to read separated Thai words would deny readers access to classic Thai texts written with joined up script. In this day and age this is hardly an issue. For example, Project Gutenberg is involved with digitizing and archiving cultural works in many languages, including Thai. The process of digitization could include separating out the Thai words. More work in the short term, but a benefit in the long term, in the context of a general move towards language reform.
Yingluck’s cabinet
@John: While I agree this smacks of betrayal, I’m not sure who has betrayed whom. Has PTP unilaterally sidelined its ‘red’ MPs? Did the red MPs agree to be sidelined in return for a fat white envelope, thereby betraying their own movement? Or are they just trying to avoid creating controversy until the ‘return of Thaksin’ issue is sorted out and will get their ministerial posts later?
They’ve got some pretty big promises to deliver. It would be an ugly if ironic outcome for anti-government protests to resume.
Find the gap
Ricky #13
And what’s wrong with the “officeoftheministryofsillywalkscityofkrabi” ? It’s staffed by fine people who do an excellent job! And as a VERY average dumb farang, I find Thai much easier to read than English. At least there is a consistent relationship between sound and symbol which English is sadly lacking.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Frank G. Anderson #30
р╕Йр╕░р╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕Бр╣Зр╕Ър╕▓р╕Зр╣Вр╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕кр╕Вр╕нр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕бр╕┤р╕Ф р╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Гр╕Др╕гр╕Фр╕╡р╣Гр╕Др╕гр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Фр╕╡
I wonder if the author of this remark was aware of Mao Tse-Tung’s “Hundred Flowers” campaign.
Yingluck’s cabinet
Hitler used the SA to win power, and then turned on their leaders after his position as chancellor had been consolidated. Remind you of anyone?
Yingluck’s cabinet
Out with Suthep and in with Chalerm,
Progress-Thai style
Plus ca change. . . .
“You can’nae change the laws o’ physics, Jim”
Letter to Thailand
Melen #37
No, the blog whose link you give is not the one who made the letter public. When I first read the letter from a political website on 1 August, I checked Google and found this blog, it didn’t have the letter yet. Notice the date of the letter being posted, 3 August.
What’s interesting about the blog, however, is that it’s apparently maintained and joined by people who are fans of the family (the four brothers and their mother) and most of them seem to be living here too. I was surprised when I came across it, as not many people here would discuss the matter publicly, still less show public sympathy to the family. I gather from reading the blog and the comments there that the family has nothing to do with it.
Measuring failed states
@ HRK – agree with you that indexes are not scientific. Also agree with you that indexes can be used for propaganda. Hence the note that it is subjective. As for how this particular index is constructed, the FSI website has all the details.
What is of importance, from my perspective, is how do we anticipate the causes that will lead to state failure. Are there ways we can predict them? What are the theories?
As example – consider and compare the ongoing London riots with Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and the triple disaster in Japan (Tsunami, earthquake & nuclear meltdown). What is it about societies that make them behave in certain ways?
And in relation to Malaysia, what I would like to know is how will Malaysians react to say (i) the shooting of a citizen – which provided the catalyst for the riots in London; (ii) to subsidy cuts, rising cost of living & social disconnect which has been suggested by some quarters as the deeper reason for the youths that are leading these riots; (iii) to government corruption – an issue which is endemic in Malaysia.
If you could share your opinion on these, I’m sure NM readers and I would really appreciate it.