Portman- come on. If you’re going to take such a strongly worded critique, that article in the Australian was clearly not the same as the article in The Times.
That’s why I doubt about authenticity of the letter. I had seen a letter before this one allegedly written by Juthavachara blaming his father and members of royal family for not supporting them.
After reading these 2 letters, I have a big question to ask ” the writer” of these 2 letters: How did your family make a living in US ? Someone has to pay the bill, and it’s quite a bit of money. The most likely person who pay the bill is the CP.
I think the K did not say “I can be criticised” with utmost sincerity. Remember that the law cannot become a law until he signs it. Thus if he disagrees with the law, why did he sign to approve this law in the first place?
And do not tell me what he signed it because he has no choice as a constitutional monarch, because the government which proposed him this law to sign did not come from the election. Instead, they got into the power after launching the coup, in which the K himself endorsed.
If he is really sincere about what he is saying, he must do more than just merely said he is not above criticism and thus he can be criticised. He must push for the Government to abolish this law, as he is probably the only person in Thailand who can do this without facing the risk of 15 year jail sentence. The fact that he said he can be criticised, then he acquiesced to the royalists arresting and jailing people who criticise him, makes him look like a hypocrite to me.
@Dan (#19)
No the King is not above the law, because it is the law which MAKES the king.
My reason for the reference to co-sanguination and genetic illness was a general comment sparked by the reference to neurofibromatosis. I did not mean to infer directly that the individual was suffering because of this but to promote thought on the part that co-sanguination plays on the psychology and awareness of inflicted individuals through history.
Be they Hapsburgs, Windsors, Ptolemys, Chakris, Heirs to the Chrysanthenum throne or Le Prieur de Sion. It is a genetic tendency based on survival instinct to keep money, wealth influence and ultimately power in the family. (Just look at the Thaksin or Murdoch dynasties)
My question goes to institutionalised co-sanguination and it’s psychological more than medical impact and how modern day dynasties deal with the fallout or not. (See NottheNations article on not mentioning Nepal!)
Of course in cases of supreme power one loses ones sense of perspective. If you look at the excess and demise of Elvis, Howard Hughes and Michael Jackson condemned by the sycophancy of their employees -“Another burger Elvis?” “Another glass of urine Mr Hughes? ” I’m sure you will look quite stunning as Elizabeth Taylor Mr Jackson?”
Where’s Jeeves when you need him?
OK so far, so tabloid, but there’s a kernel of truth to be winkled out here and there but for fortune, go you or I.
Ji says out “I opposed the military coup. Since the coup, there has been a dramatic increase in the use of the law to try to silence the opposition. ”
His usual line is that the King is a front man for the military who rule over so much in Siam. So my advice to is that the best means to defend those suffering from this hated lese magesty law is to go on the attack and use the law against its beneficiaries – the military.
I have pointed out before that the military treats the widely advertised concern for nature and the forests of the realm by their magesties with contempt as they regularly and systematically destroy trees planted often to honour the King. These constitute not mere words against the monarch but actions which they carry out with impunity to denigrate what we are told the King stands for.
So will Tarrin or some other Thai person who concurs with the overwhelming number of readers who oppose the retention of this cruel law please lay a prosecution? I will be happy to provide evidence to support a case.
“First, the most basic “rules of law” that the lese majecte law didnt live up to is that you let “anyone” sue “anyone” for the crime commit to someone else”
No, you are not supposed let “ANYONE” sue “ANYONE” for the crime commit to someone else.
I think what Jesse is trying to say in so many words is the king is ‘above all that’ when it comes to matters of lawsuits and defamation. And he may be correct in his assessment if enough Thai people feel the same way. So the real question is whether Thailand has progressed to the point where people start to think differently.
The Australian‘s report, though quoting The Times‘s, is not the reproduction of the latter, which is much longer (12-13 paragraphs, compared to five or six in The Australian).
The part in The Times‘s report that verifies the letter’s authenticity comprises only one short part of a sentence, which read (my emphasis):
“… the four men write in a letter which has been verified by Mr Vacharaesorn, now a practising lawyer with a firm in New York state”
Is this enough? I would think so: I cannot see whyThe Times would make up such matter.
[…] har ocks├е tittat p├е en affisch som anv├дndes av den nu besegrade premi├дrministern Abhisit Vejjajiva. En riktigt trist men typisk thail├дndsk […]
Portman – One clarification. PPP deals with the skytrain/underground are certainly possible as they are already established players, but you have the 20 Baht trip plan. When it comes to other infrastructure projects Thai companies are probably better-placed OR having an influential, trust-worthy Thai partner in a JV is needed. Given you can get screwed over, agree with your statement “Personally I wouldn’t touch a foreign company involved in Thai infrastructure with a barge pole.”
I noticed that The Times article which can be read for free on The Australian’s website quotes Andrew Walker without mentioning that Andrew is the one who publicised the letter here without being to confirm its veracity. It’s getting a bit incestuous.
The post mentions Payap as being a well-known stock market investor, while this may be true, he has not had the greatest of success – at least according to the Bangkok Post – which had a this article entitled “Payap Found Bankrupt in February 2010”
Payap Shinawatra, the brother of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and a member of the opposition Puea Thai Party, has been declared bankrupt.
The order, which was published in the Royal Gazette on Tuesday, was handed down by the Central Bankruptcy Court on July 31 last year.
Also declared bankrupt by the court was Shinawatra Thai Soft Co Ltd, which is owned by Mr Payap.
The bankruptcy order was sought by Sathorn Asset Management Co, Mr Payap’s creditor.
A bankruptcy order against Shinawatra Thai Co, another one of his companies, was published in the Royal Gazette last Wednesday.
The Central Bankruptcy Court issued this bankruptcy ruling on July 30 last year as sought by Tisco Bank.
Thaksin’s autobiography published soon after he became PM tried to make out that he came from a very poor Northern family and he tried to tell people he was Mon rather than Chinese. I also remember a ludicrous episode, early in his first administration, when he pretended he had had a misunderstanding due his limited command of Central Thai since he grew up speaking Northern Thai. Perhaps he meant to say Hakka.
Paul Rivett. There are also accounts that have Chiang accumulating his seed money from opium trading which was of course legal then. Perhaps some more research into the family’s drug links, and possible links between this and the war on drugs would be useful in fleshing out the background of this clan.
Mr Damage. The sheer numbers of Chinese immigration up till the early 50s and the ease with which they obtained residence and citizenship in those days makes it absurd to compare the Farang-Thai community with the Chinese-Thai community. In the peak years before the immigration quota of 100 per nationality effectively put a stop to mass Chinese immigration there were up to 5,000 new Chinese immigrants a year.
Re: Mr Damage #4
I’m really not sure I understand what your point is here. Yes Thai business is heavily dominated by Chinese-Thai which developed through “kongsi” relationships. The history goes back to at least the early 20th century when large numbers of Chinese fled the turmoil of their homeland and then relied on the personal networks they had to establish businesses in their new country. Being successful they have of course continued in this method to the present day.
In comparison there has never been a similar large scale migration of westerners to Thailand who had to rely on their own wits and connections to build a new life in a foreign land. Different circumstances produce different outcomes. But this is nothing genetic, if that was somehow your implication (??)
Since CT has response to you post in quite a length so I will make this a short one.
First, the most basic “rules of law” that the lese majecte law didnt live up to is that you let “anyone” sue “anyone” for the crime commit to someone else. Its like I can sue you for defaming CT, do you think that’s fair that I can sue you for that?
I’ve written many times about the how this law has broken almost all the principle of law ever invented. Btw, you are mistaken about so many facts that I think you should try to study a bit about what you are writing.
I think that ASEAN is between a rock and a hard place. One one side is the ‘West’ and on the other is Burma. Cultural relativist viewpoints demand that ASEAN ignore traditional Western human rights norms, yet they are trying to implement similar policies under a different name. Burma, on the other hand, is an embarrassment. In any event, they need to deal with Burma and increase the pressure on the junta to bring in certain civil liberties, whilst trying to save face with the West. I don’t envy them.
Perhaps those of us with contacts in Western universities should be informing them directly about events like this?
The usual barrier is Thailand’s image as a pantomime place of prostitutes, drugs, women firing ping pong balls in improbable ways (c.f.Bridget Jones’s Diary, The Beach, Priscilla, Queen of the Desert) etc. It’s hard to get people to stop sniggering long enough to engage them in debate.
But stories like this – which strike at the very heart of academic values – might actually attract the attention of individual academics, especially those who are contemplating attending conferences at, or otherwise engaging with Kasetsart (in the present case).
It might at least make them feel ashamed, which would be a step up.
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Crown Prince’s family update?
Portman- come on. If you’re going to take such a strongly worded critique, that article in the Australian was clearly not the same as the article in The Times.
Thank you, Ajaan Somsak, for providing the quote.
Letter to Thailand
That’s why I doubt about authenticity of the letter. I had seen a letter before this one allegedly written by Juthavachara blaming his father and members of royal family for not supporting them.
After reading these 2 letters, I have a big question to ask ” the writer” of these 2 letters: How did your family make a living in US ? Someone has to pay the bill, and it’s quite a bit of money. The most likely person who pay the bill is the CP.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
@Barry (#22)
I think the K did not say “I can be criticised” with utmost sincerity. Remember that the law cannot become a law until he signs it. Thus if he disagrees with the law, why did he sign to approve this law in the first place?
And do not tell me what he signed it because he has no choice as a constitutional monarch, because the government which proposed him this law to sign did not come from the election. Instead, they got into the power after launching the coup, in which the K himself endorsed.
If he is really sincere about what he is saying, he must do more than just merely said he is not above criticism and thus he can be criticised. He must push for the Government to abolish this law, as he is probably the only person in Thailand who can do this without facing the risk of 15 year jail sentence. The fact that he said he can be criticised, then he acquiesced to the royalists arresting and jailing people who criticise him, makes him look like a hypocrite to me.
@Dan (#19)
No the King is not above the law, because it is the law which MAKES the king.
Crown Prince’s family update?
DK // 42
My reason for the reference to co-sanguination and genetic illness was a general comment sparked by the reference to neurofibromatosis. I did not mean to infer directly that the individual was suffering because of this but to promote thought on the part that co-sanguination plays on the psychology and awareness of inflicted individuals through history.
Be they Hapsburgs, Windsors, Ptolemys, Chakris, Heirs to the Chrysanthenum throne or Le Prieur de Sion. It is a genetic tendency based on survival instinct to keep money, wealth influence and ultimately power in the family. (Just look at the Thaksin or Murdoch dynasties)
My question goes to institutionalised co-sanguination and it’s psychological more than medical impact and how modern day dynasties deal with the fallout or not. (See NottheNations article on not mentioning Nepal!)
Of course in cases of supreme power one loses ones sense of perspective. If you look at the excess and demise of Elvis, Howard Hughes and Michael Jackson condemned by the sycophancy of their employees -“Another burger Elvis?” “Another glass of urine Mr Hughes? ” I’m sure you will look quite stunning as Elizabeth Taylor Mr Jackson?”
Where’s Jeeves when you need him?
OK so far, so tabloid, but there’s a kernel of truth to be winkled out here and there but for fortune, go you or I.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Dan D #19
The King himself in an interview said that ‘he is not above criticism’ yet the draconian measures of this law continue to be applied
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Ji says out “I opposed the military coup. Since the coup, there has been a dramatic increase in the use of the law to try to silence the opposition. ”
His usual line is that the King is a front man for the military who rule over so much in Siam. So my advice to is that the best means to defend those suffering from this hated lese magesty law is to go on the attack and use the law against its beneficiaries – the military.
I have pointed out before that the military treats the widely advertised concern for nature and the forests of the realm by their magesties with contempt as they regularly and systematically destroy trees planted often to honour the King. These constitute not mere words against the monarch but actions which they carry out with impunity to denigrate what we are told the King stands for.
So will Tarrin or some other Thai person who concurs with the overwhelming number of readers who oppose the retention of this cruel law please lay a prosecution? I will be happy to provide evidence to support a case.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Tarrin (17)
“First, the most basic “rules of law” that the lese majecte law didnt live up to is that you let “anyone” sue “anyone” for the crime commit to someone else”
No, you are not supposed let “ANYONE” sue “ANYONE” for the crime commit to someone else.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
I think what Jesse is trying to say in so many words is the king is ‘above all that’ when it comes to matters of lawsuits and defamation. And he may be correct in his assessment if enough Thai people feel the same way. So the real question is whether Thailand has progressed to the point where people start to think differently.
Crown Prince’s family update?
Portman #52
The Australian‘s report, though quoting The Times‘s, is not the reproduction of the latter, which is much longer (12-13 paragraphs, compared to five or six in The Australian).
The part in The Times‘s report that verifies the letter’s authenticity comprises only one short part of a sentence, which read (my emphasis):
“… the four men write in a letter which has been verified by Mr Vacharaesorn, now a practising lawyer with a firm in New York state”
Is this enough? I would think so: I cannot see whyThe Times would make up such matter.
Abhisit on the streets
[…] har ocks├е tittat p├е en affisch som anv├дndes av den nu besegrade premi├дrministern Abhisit Vejjajiva. En riktigt trist men typisk thail├дndsk […]
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
“How many of you are going to remain silent about the destruction of academic freedom in Thailand so that you can continue to travel to Thailand?”
Whatever one thinks about Ungpakorn’s writings on Thailand, the Thai monarchy and Marxism, I believe this is a fair question.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Portman – One clarification. PPP deals with the skytrain/underground are certainly possible as they are already established players, but you have the 20 Baht trip plan. When it comes to other infrastructure projects Thai companies are probably better-placed OR having an influential, trust-worthy Thai partner in a JV is needed. Given you can get screwed over, agree with your statement “Personally I wouldn’t touch a foreign company involved in Thai infrastructure with a barge pole.”
Crown Prince’s family update?
I noticed that The Times article which can be read for free on The Australian’s website quotes Andrew Walker without mentioning that Andrew is the one who publicised the letter here without being to confirm its veracity. It’s getting a bit incestuous.
The Shinawatra family tree
The post mentions Payap as being a well-known stock market investor, while this may be true, he has not had the greatest of success – at least according to the Bangkok Post – which had a this article entitled “Payap Found Bankrupt in February 2010”
Payap Shinawatra, the brother of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and a member of the opposition Puea Thai Party, has been declared bankrupt.
The order, which was published in the Royal Gazette on Tuesday, was handed down by the Central Bankruptcy Court on July 31 last year.
Also declared bankrupt by the court was Shinawatra Thai Soft Co Ltd, which is owned by Mr Payap.
The bankruptcy order was sought by Sathorn Asset Management Co, Mr Payap’s creditor.
A bankruptcy order against Shinawatra Thai Co, another one of his companies, was published in the Royal Gazette last Wednesday.
The Central Bankruptcy Court issued this bankruptcy ruling on July 30 last year as sought by Tisco Bank.
The Shinawatra family tree
Thaksin’s autobiography published soon after he became PM tried to make out that he came from a very poor Northern family and he tried to tell people he was Mon rather than Chinese. I also remember a ludicrous episode, early in his first administration, when he pretended he had had a misunderstanding due his limited command of Central Thai since he grew up speaking Northern Thai. Perhaps he meant to say Hakka.
Paul Rivett. There are also accounts that have Chiang accumulating his seed money from opium trading which was of course legal then. Perhaps some more research into the family’s drug links, and possible links between this and the war on drugs would be useful in fleshing out the background of this clan.
Mr Damage. The sheer numbers of Chinese immigration up till the early 50s and the ease with which they obtained residence and citizenship in those days makes it absurd to compare the Farang-Thai community with the Chinese-Thai community. In the peak years before the immigration quota of 100 per nationality effectively put a stop to mass Chinese immigration there were up to 5,000 new Chinese immigrants a year.
The Shinawatra family tree
Good article.
Re: Mr Damage #4
I’m really not sure I understand what your point is here. Yes Thai business is heavily dominated by Chinese-Thai which developed through “kongsi” relationships. The history goes back to at least the early 20th century when large numbers of Chinese fled the turmoil of their homeland and then relied on the personal networks they had to establish businesses in their new country. Being successful they have of course continued in this method to the present day.
In comparison there has never been a similar large scale migration of westerners to Thailand who had to rely on their own wits and connections to build a new life in a foreign land. Different circumstances produce different outcomes. But this is nothing genetic, if that was somehow your implication (??)
Crown Prince’s family update?
Anonymousth #50
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lloyd_Parry
cheers.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Jesse – 14
Since CT has response to you post in quite a length so I will make this a short one.
First, the most basic “rules of law” that the lese majecte law didnt live up to is that you let “anyone” sue “anyone” for the crime commit to someone else. Its like I can sue you for defaming CT, do you think that’s fair that I can sue you for that?
I’ve written many times about the how this law has broken almost all the principle of law ever invented. Btw, you are mistaken about so many facts that I think you should try to study a bit about what you are writing.
On ASEAN’s Burma policy
I think that ASEAN is between a rock and a hard place. One one side is the ‘West’ and on the other is Burma. Cultural relativist viewpoints demand that ASEAN ignore traditional Western human rights norms, yet they are trying to implement similar policies under a different name. Burma, on the other hand, is an embarrassment. In any event, they need to deal with Burma and increase the pressure on the junta to bring in certain civil liberties, whilst trying to save face with the West. I don’t envy them.
Ji Ungpakorn on lese majeste
Perhaps those of us with contacts in Western universities should be informing them directly about events like this?
The usual barrier is Thailand’s image as a pantomime place of prostitutes, drugs, women firing ping pong balls in improbable ways (c.f.Bridget Jones’s Diary, The Beach, Priscilla, Queen of the Desert) etc. It’s hard to get people to stop sniggering long enough to engage them in debate.
But stories like this – which strike at the very heart of academic values – might actually attract the attention of individual academics, especially those who are contemplating attending conferences at, or otherwise engaging with Kasetsart (in the present case).
It might at least make them feel ashamed, which would be a step up.