You do not need the services of a lawyer to tell you what common sense should already have been able to do.
The answer is no. That law is not likely to be affected much by the new PM.
@Seh Fah said:”I fail to see why Yuwathida/Sujarini and Srirat should not get along. They have so much in common”.
—
Have you listened to the recorded (leaked) telephone conversation between Yuvathida and the CP, which is widely available to be downloaded online? If you have, you will know that Yuvathida would not want to get along with Princess Srirasmi :p
@Jesse (and about CP in Florida)
The CP’s website has a photo of him Srirasmi claiming to be taken in Flordia. I’m not sure that this proves anything one way or another, and the photo is dated 2003, which would have been before Yuvathida changed her name and the Prince’s marriage to Srirasmi was announced. So a visit at that point in time (2003) would not quite be the grand reconciliation that it would have been later – even if we had any evidence that he saw/was amiable with Family #2. http://www.ohmpps.go.th/searchsheetlist_en.php?get=1&quick_type=photo&book=BB2550914&AC_quick_text=&quick_text=
@Diogenes #33 – I quite agree. Too many people are sitting back and saying “the problem of LM will change with royal succession.” Seems a lot to ask all of those imprisoned to just hold on and wait…
Neurofribromas are treated more often by surgery, but also occasionally via radiation. You might have meant to say that there is no cure for the condition, but there is treatment – you can kill the individual tumors as they erupt – as the letter (legit or not) suggests is happening.
“I have not read a Wikileaks report of the CP being in Florida”
Does that mean the truth that comes out of Thailand would have to be based on the cables by American ambassador ? Thai people are not capable of these knowledges ?
—
Consider how little the information of the Royal Family has been revealed to the Thai public, and the lese majeste law, and the fact that 100,000+ websites have been blocked by Thai authorities, it amuses me why you even bother to ask me if the normal Thai people CAN find out the TRUE information of what’s going on behind the scenes.
Furthermore, you said ‘any Thai person in Florida have seen the prince visiting Yuvathida and his four boys’. Well, why don’t you prove your assertion? If every Thai in Florida has seen what you claimed, at least one out of ten, or let’s say even one of the hundred of those Thais should have taken photos of them being together in an amicably way, I assume? From what you said, it would not be so difficult for you to find such photographs, would you? Find them and prove your assertion please, would you?
The eldest son, Jutavachara, was not “born in wedlock”. When he was born in 1978, the crown prince was still legally married to his cousin, Princess Somsawali. However, after the crown prince divorced Somsawali in 1993 and married Sujarinee, their five children were all recognized as members of the royal family by the king granting them the title “mom chao”, acknowledging them as his grandchildren. I’m not a Thai legal expert (Is anybody?) but I can’t see any legal or ethical grounds for depriving Jutavachara of his royal status or his right to become crown prince on the accession of King Rama X. If he is disinherited because of his mother’s status, then what about the crown prince’s youngest son, Prince Dipangkorn Ratsamichot? Oh, what a tangled web we weave.
Having just seen another rant by amateur lawyer Sam I do hope BKK lawyer does not spend too much of his valuable time refuting it.
However should BKK lawyer not have given up his interest I would ask if he feels the new PM can quickly act to free victims of the Lese Magesty law, both convicted and awaiting trial?
Could the grounds be that the convictions were unfair due to the secretive process of the kangaroo courts that jailed the victims? Could His Magesty’s comments regarding criticism of himself also be grounds?
If the new government were to do so, as well as freeing some of its unjustly jailed supporters it would make the law a dead letter and allow open discussion of some of the unspoken issues underlying this case such as the costs of the Prince’s planes and the reasons for his long absences from the country where he would be King.
1. I must be in different planet as I have not heard such ridiculous news of the Crown Prince visiting former wife and children in the States. If the whole thing was some kind of propaganda, then I think the four boys have done better job than their daddy. As all what I have heard was complaints from the boy.
2. What made you believe that Thais don’t need detailed news or cables to educate them? This is insulting.
3. You said, are you even allowed to be bitter with your ex husband who is a crown prince? Well, you seem to suggest here that Sucharinee has no “cards” in her hands. This is wrong; she has four boys. These boys are grandchildren of the King.
4. CP appeared at Wat Florida Dhammaram? There is nothing to suggest that he was there just for his kids.
5. They have been allowed to go back to Thailand? Again, there has been no report on this, even on the pro-monarchy websites (or as a matter of fact, from the anti-monarchy websites)
6. The Princess has spared money to give them? How much are we talking about here? To cover the living costs of all four brothers, plus one mother, and two grandparents who live in the US? Or just a couple of hundred baht as a gesture of brotherhood-sisterhood.
7. True, not everything comes out of WikiLeaks on Thailand is the truth, neither from yourself.
The Bangkok Pundit thoughtfully provides us with an analysis of a Der Spiegel article, which revealed new details on the Bau machinations re THE plane.
Let us add to the discussion by looking at a significant mistake in the article and, from a non-lawyer point of view, the dishonest implications of what appears to be serious ‘legal abuse’ by Bau and a “lower” Court.
The Mistake: Spiegel says “The Munich senior district court decided that it had no jurisdiction in the case. The prince, the court said, wore a uniform and was immune from prosecution. Schneider [ Bau’s liquidator] then took the case to a court in Berlin, and was successful.”
But as we all know, this is factually wrong. THE plane impoundment case was NOT taken to the Berlin Court. As the Nation explains, Bau took a different and separate action re arbitration to the Berlin Court. Bau sought action in the “…. German court in Berlin asking for enforcement of the arbitration tribunal’s decision.” That “… case is now under consideration….”
So Bau did NOT go to the Berlin Court seeking to impound THE plane, after being ruled against under German Law in a Munich Court. Instead, Bau’s Schneider shopped around for a lower court that apparently would willing and consciously ignore the “SENIOR” German Court’s ruling. A ruling that declared: Under the law, GERMAN law, GERMAN Courts have no jurisdiction to rule on any such matters as impounding this plane.
That is, Bau went to a backwater lower court, which appears to have been chosen because it would over look the legal niceties of the Munich Senior Court’s ruling. In this manner, the Thais have been sucked into an endless German legal morass.
They faced a lower court consciously willing to take the Bau suit, going against their own higher German Court legal finding. So should the Thai Attorneys challenge this lower Court’s jurisdiction in enforcing the suit, they would have yet more tangled legal involvement.
On the other hand, the Thais also faced the lower Court’s own ‘unique ideas of justice’ in ruling on the suit and impounding THE plane. That is, the German lower court remarkably rules, the evidence shows THE plane is privately owned, NOT Thai Government owned, so if you give us 28.4 million dollars, we will release THE plane to the private party.
Say what?
Hmmm, how do you spell, ransom? Shake-down? Judicial abuse? Ahhh, yes, it’s spelled —
If the law is on your side but you sign away your rights, the law is helpless. If a powerful person or institution forces the less powerful to agree to onerous conditions, the law cannot intervene in most cases.
Andrew is indirectly making this point, I believe, that coercion may be an issue here.
Don’t read too much into the ambassador’s comments. It was required that he write it; he no doubt delegated the task to senior colleagues inside the embassy rather than doing it personally, but he would certainly have revised it; he may have shown it to colleagues back in Jakarta; and the greatest concern of all concerned would have been to say as little as possible while generating warm feelings. The feeling is the meaning. (Ask Trevor Wilson, he’s been there and done that – and so have I, I’ve drafted the damn things in my time).
Legal question: does Thailand not have some sort of primogeniture law (by statute or by precedent)? Is is possible for a father to casually disinherit his male offspring?
Surely the oldest son (born in wedlock etc) would have some sort of RIGHTS of inheritance, wouldn’t he?
Could you spare time to ‘enlighten’ one more foreign academic, please?
If “[t]he crown prince … travelled to Florida regularly to visit his ex wife and their sons”, why would it be neccessary for “… their youngest sister [to] transfer them money”?
Are you insinuating that the crown prince visits his family regularly, but won’t give them money? Sounds a bit rude to me.
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Plane audacity in Thai dispute
You do not need the services of a lawyer to tell you what common sense should already have been able to do.
The answer is no. That law is not likely to be affected much by the new PM.
Crown Prince’s family update?
Am very curious how an unsubstantiated document could be considered “significant”?
Would this get past any kind of academic peer review?
Likely not.
Surely would be better to work on substantiating this first before starting a discussion on it?
And surely the owners of this blog are savvy enough to realise that Thai politics is often a nasty miasma of false rumour, conjecture and smears?
Truth is that anyone could have produced this “letter” and I am a bit amazed it is up on this site.
Crown Prince’s family update?
@Seh Fah said:”I fail to see why Yuwathida/Sujarini and Srirat should not get along. They have so much in common”.
—
Have you listened to the recorded (leaked) telephone conversation between Yuvathida and the CP, which is widely available to be downloaded online? If you have, you will know that Yuvathida would not want to get along with Princess Srirasmi :p
Crown Prince’s family update?
@Jesse (and about CP in Florida)
The CP’s website has a photo of him Srirasmi claiming to be taken in Flordia. I’m not sure that this proves anything one way or another, and the photo is dated 2003, which would have been before Yuvathida changed her name and the Prince’s marriage to Srirasmi was announced. So a visit at that point in time (2003) would not quite be the grand reconciliation that it would have been later – even if we had any evidence that he saw/was amiable with Family #2.
http://www.ohmpps.go.th/searchsheetlist_en.php?get=1&quick_type=photo&book=BB2550914&AC_quick_text=&quick_text=
@Diogenes #33 – I quite agree. Too many people are sitting back and saying “the problem of LM will change with royal succession.” Seems a lot to ask all of those imprisoned to just hold on and wait…
Crown Prince’s family update?
Meanwhile…Da Torpedo languishes in jail. This topic is supremely facile and indulgent for those who have their freedom.
Crown Prince’s family update?
Toni #26
Neurofribromas are treated more often by surgery, but also occasionally via radiation. You might have meant to say that there is no cure for the condition, but there is treatment – you can kill the individual tumors as they erupt – as the letter (legit or not) suggests is happening.
Crown Prince’s family update?
@Jesse asked me:
CT
“I have not read a Wikileaks report of the CP being in Florida”
Does that mean the truth that comes out of Thailand would have to be based on the cables by American ambassador ? Thai people are not capable of these knowledges ?
—
Consider how little the information of the Royal Family has been revealed to the Thai public, and the lese majeste law, and the fact that 100,000+ websites have been blocked by Thai authorities, it amuses me why you even bother to ask me if the normal Thai people CAN find out the TRUE information of what’s going on behind the scenes.
Furthermore, you said ‘any Thai person in Florida have seen the prince visiting Yuvathida and his four boys’. Well, why don’t you prove your assertion? If every Thai in Florida has seen what you claimed, at least one out of ten, or let’s say even one of the hundred of those Thais should have taken photos of them being together in an amicably way, I assume? From what you said, it would not be so difficult for you to find such photographs, would you? Find them and prove your assertion please, would you?
Royal motherhood statement
The national anthem reminds Thais each morn and eve
In memory all parts inscribe
For Thailand’s whole existency
By all Thais’ love of unity
Crown Prince’s family update?
I fail to see why Yuwathida/Sujarini and Srirat should not get along. They have so much in common.
Letter to Thailand
JohnW #4
The eldest son, Jutavachara, was not “born in wedlock”. When he was born in 1978, the crown prince was still legally married to his cousin, Princess Somsawali. However, after the crown prince divorced Somsawali in 1993 and married Sujarinee, their five children were all recognized as members of the royal family by the king granting them the title “mom chao”, acknowledging them as his grandchildren. I’m not a Thai legal expert (Is anybody?) but I can’t see any legal or ethical grounds for depriving Jutavachara of his royal status or his right to become crown prince on the accession of King Rama X. If he is disinherited because of his mother’s status, then what about the crown prince’s youngest son, Prince Dipangkorn Ratsamichot? Oh, what a tangled web we weave.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Having just seen another rant by amateur lawyer Sam I do hope BKK lawyer does not spend too much of his valuable time refuting it.
However should BKK lawyer not have given up his interest I would ask if he feels the new PM can quickly act to free victims of the Lese Magesty law, both convicted and awaiting trial?
Could the grounds be that the convictions were unfair due to the secretive process of the kangaroo courts that jailed the victims? Could His Magesty’s comments regarding criticism of himself also be grounds?
If the new government were to do so, as well as freeing some of its unjustly jailed supporters it would make the law a dead letter and allow open discussion of some of the unspoken issues underlying this case such as the costs of the Prince’s planes and the reasons for his long absences from the country where he would be King.
Crown Prince’s family update?
Jesse (20)
1. I must be in different planet as I have not heard such ridiculous news of the Crown Prince visiting former wife and children in the States. If the whole thing was some kind of propaganda, then I think the four boys have done better job than their daddy. As all what I have heard was complaints from the boy.
2. What made you believe that Thais don’t need detailed news or cables to educate them? This is insulting.
3. You said, are you even allowed to be bitter with your ex husband who is a crown prince? Well, you seem to suggest here that Sucharinee has no “cards” in her hands. This is wrong; she has four boys. These boys are grandchildren of the King.
4. CP appeared at Wat Florida Dhammaram? There is nothing to suggest that he was there just for his kids.
5. They have been allowed to go back to Thailand? Again, there has been no report on this, even on the pro-monarchy websites (or as a matter of fact, from the anti-monarchy websites)
6. The Princess has spared money to give them? How much are we talking about here? To cover the living costs of all four brothers, plus one mother, and two grandparents who live in the US? Or just a couple of hundred baht as a gesture of brotherhood-sisterhood.
7. True, not everything comes out of WikiLeaks on Thailand is the truth, neither from yourself.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The Bangkok Pundit thoughtfully provides us with an analysis of a Der Spiegel article, which revealed new details on the Bau machinations re THE plane.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/61680/der-spiegel/
Let us add to the discussion by looking at a significant mistake in the article and, from a non-lawyer point of view, the dishonest implications of what appears to be serious ‘legal abuse’ by Bau and a “lower” Court.
The Mistake: Spiegel says “The Munich senior district court decided that it had no jurisdiction in the case. The prince, the court said, wore a uniform and was immune from prosecution. Schneider [ Bau’s liquidator] then took the case to a court in Berlin, and was successful.”
But as we all know, this is factually wrong. THE plane impoundment case was NOT taken to the Berlin Court. As the Nation explains, Bau took a different and separate action re arbitration to the Berlin Court. Bau sought action in the “…. German court in Berlin asking for enforcement of the arbitration tribunal’s decision.” That “… case is now under consideration….”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/30/national/Bring-case-to-Thailand-30161496.html
So Bau did NOT go to the Berlin Court seeking to impound THE plane, after being ruled against under German Law in a Munich Court. Instead, Bau’s Schneider shopped around for a lower court that apparently would willing and consciously ignore the “SENIOR” German Court’s ruling. A ruling that declared: Under the law, GERMAN law, GERMAN Courts have no jurisdiction to rule on any such matters as impounding this plane.
That is, Bau went to a backwater lower court, which appears to have been chosen because it would over look the legal niceties of the Munich Senior Court’s ruling. In this manner, the Thais have been sucked into an endless German legal morass.
They faced a lower court consciously willing to take the Bau suit, going against their own higher German Court legal finding. So should the Thai Attorneys challenge this lower Court’s jurisdiction in enforcing the suit, they would have yet more tangled legal involvement.
On the other hand, the Thais also faced the lower Court’s own ‘unique ideas of justice’ in ruling on the suit and impounding THE plane. That is, the German lower court remarkably rules, the evidence shows THE plane is privately owned, NOT Thai Government owned, so if you give us 28.4 million dollars, we will release THE plane to the private party.
Say what?
Hmmm, how do you spell, ransom? Shake-down? Judicial abuse? Ahhh, yes, it’s spelled —
B-A-V-A-R-I-A
A stacked deck, indeed!
Letter to Thailand
@JohnW
If the law is on your side but you sign away your rights, the law is helpless. If a powerful person or institution forces the less powerful to agree to onerous conditions, the law cannot intervene in most cases.
Andrew is indirectly making this point, I believe, that coercion may be an issue here.
Royal motherhood statement
I would have translated the slogan a little differently:
The Thai national anthem, when played at dawn and dusk,
Reminds us that our survival depends on unity.
Indonesia and Burma: “Strong and dignified” states
Don’t read too much into the ambassador’s comments. It was required that he write it; he no doubt delegated the task to senior colleagues inside the embassy rather than doing it personally, but he would certainly have revised it; he may have shown it to colleagues back in Jakarta; and the greatest concern of all concerned would have been to say as little as possible while generating warm feelings. The feeling is the meaning. (Ask Trevor Wilson, he’s been there and done that – and so have I, I’ve drafted the damn things in my time).
Letter to Thailand
Legal question: does Thailand not have some sort of primogeniture law (by statute or by precedent)? Is is possible for a father to casually disinherit his male offspring?
Surely the oldest son (born in wedlock etc) would have some sort of RIGHTS of inheritance, wouldn’t he?
Letter to Thailand
Is not the present Monarch ‘highly Westernized and Western educated’
Crown Prince’s family update?
Jesse #5
Could you spare time to ‘enlighten’ one more foreign academic, please?
If “[t]he crown prince … travelled to Florida regularly to visit his ex wife and their sons”, why would it be neccessary for “… their youngest sister [to] transfer them money”?
Are you insinuating that the crown prince visits his family regularly, but won’t give them money? Sounds a bit rude to me.
Letter to Thailand
I see what you did there 😉