There are enough ills to justifying existing as well as future animosity among brothers in and outside Myanmar.
I wonder during the brief period of DASSK post election jubilee her supporters that spill the blood of ex MI of Ne Win will come out and confess or be made known by DVB?
I believe they presently reside/take refuge in Australia or the USA as well.
How about the Ramboes (pronounced RUM – BO) among New Mandala from Australia and else where?
If reading is the base for being intellectual the posters here are surely out of touch.
Ask anyone who try to learn Burmese.
“la langues de birmanie is one the most monolithic.”
It will take an average person in Myanmar to be adequately educated in Burmese, reading and writing ( at least 9 years, 8th Standard) if not more.
Even then understanding the basic nuances of la langues takes a life time. No provision for reasoning is promoted during those secondary school tears.
Intellectualism dictates that one will and must be able to reason and think.
Reasoning require a certain amount of truism as well facts.
In Myanmar The present education system Monastic as well as State controlled, remain, unchanged, a vestige of colonial system neither promote relevant facts to challenge the mind nor provide a bearing that prepare for any serendipity.
Beyond religious Canon very few true original Burmese lit exist.
No post grad curriculum in Burmese (History etc) and English, thanks to the 40+ year of military control, and western sanction again either prepare the participants or promotes opportunities to expand ones mind
Compounding the above facts and the decrepit nature of existence for the Majority of the citizenry, intellectualism usually is determined by short term survival.
The only relevant avenue of promoting intellect that will determine “seeing things differently” must come from the outside especially knowing the present ruling entity justifiable ‘western Xenophobic nature’.
As I see it no western democracy is willing to educate willing scholar from Myanmar even in Public Health.
Until this unrelenting sanction is lifted this tragic fact of survival dictating everything will continue.
I would also be interested in seeing what books people recommend. I’ve just finished Pira Sudham’s autobiographical novels Monsoon Country and its sequel, The Force of Karma, and they are brilliant.
New Mandala
Bangkok Pundit
Prachatai
Asian Correspondent’s Siam Voices
Asian Correspondent’s new blog: Inside Burma
Political Prisoners in Thailand
2Bangkok.com
The Isaan Record http://isaanrecord.com/
FACT
Asia Sentinel online
UPI Asia Online
Phnom Penh Post online
Irrawaddy online
Khmerization http://khmerization.blogspot.com/
KI Media (Sam Rainsy-friendly) http://ki-media.blogspot.com/
Irregular posters:
Khi Kwai
Sovereign Myth (Michael Connors)
Bangkok Post
The Nation (when I see a free/discarded copy)
A. The registration certificate raises a presumption of ownership, but it is not conclusive. A registration certificate contains only the signature of the person who’s filing the certificate and thereby claiming ownership, which obviously is self-serving and not conclusive proof. When an aircraft is sold or given away, there is a bill of sale signed by the previous owner and identifying the new owner. That’s the document that needs to be presented to the German court showing transfer of ownership from the RTAF to the CP (and it must show — credibly — that ownership was transferred before the plane was impounded).
B. Posting the bond (the “German ransom,” as you call it) does not prove ownership. Anyone with a strong interest in getting the property released while the seizure is contested may post a release bond. For example, if the aircraft were leased to an airline and the airline was losing money everyday because it cannot fly the plane, the airline might post the bond. Obviously that would not establish that the airline owns the plane — only that it needs to use it.
For the same reason, the court’s accepting the bond does not mean it agrees that the person posting the bond is the owner.
Consider that the Thai govt is apparently now willing to post the bond so the CP doesn’t have to (JohnW @220 and The Nation). How does that fit your theory that posting the bond proves ownership?
C. No one uses aircraft registries as proof of an airplane’s ownership — just as they don’t use registration certificates as proof. The registry is only the first step in identifying the owner. If you were buying a plane, you would not rely on the registry to confirm that the person taking your money is the true owner; you would do a thorough title search (looking at past bills of sale), just as you would do for land.
Before you get too excited about the societal transformation that easy access to voice (and internet??) communications could bring, as always with Burma there are some dismal statistics to digest.
Mobile penetration for 2010 was estimated at just 1% of the population. This compares with 68% for Laos (wow !) and 105% for Thailand (we all knew that one). Growth for Burma’s mobile penetration is estimated at just 12% p.a. – compare with their poor neighbour Bangladesh where growth is 30% p.a.
[Source : http://www.budde.com.au]
Even allowing for inaccuracy in these stats it is unlikely that Burma’s mobile penetration is at any critical mass yet and we have a very long way to go before “the near universal use of mobiles phones, like we see in Thailand”.
Your link describing the latest announcement from Myanmar Posts and Telecommunications is depressing reading. The “distribution” of handsets described amounts to perhaps 10% growth p.a. So no real change there. A state sponsored drive to market not-very-cheap handsets will not change much I think. And where are they building the base stations? Probably not in the delta area where U Blog would like to ring up and complain that his village is still without electricity or other basic services.
It is worth reflecting also on the history of politics and telecoms in Thailand. The huge sums of money involved in expanding Thailands telecoms networks in the early ’90’s became a driver for many of the machinations that were seen in the Chatchai-Suchinda era. And within a decade Thaksin had climbed to the top of the money tree using cosy “concessions” between the goverment and AIS his mobile phone company. Subsequently Thaksin visited the Burmese government whilst he was PM, although only to discuss state affairs of course, but I’m sure the Burmese took note of his way to fortune.
The reality is that the current Burmese elite view telecom development as just another way to enrich themselves whilst giving the side benefit of presenting a facade of modern technological progress.
I’m afraid we’ll have to gaze a long long way before we can see Burmese teenagers merrily facebooking each other from their internet enabled smart phones whilst hanging around the shopping malls.
Kasit contradicting the CP, isn’t that ground for LM? Then again, maybe EU20 mil. from the state, EU 20 mil. from the CP, case closed, all conflicts resolved.
Newspapers
– Bangkok Post
– Matichon
– Khao sot
Blogs
– New Mandala (of course)
– Political Prisoners in Thailand
– Bangkok Pundit
– Pratchathai
– HIS Stories (occasionally)
– Fringer (occasionally)
– Irrawaddy (occasionally)
– Not the Nation
And the academic journals having to do with SEA studies
He is a banker, the most vile and corrupt group of parasites in the history of civilization, as such honesty, fairness or decency are likely concepts he has never contemplated in philosophical introspection.
The prince’s offer prompted the Thai government to change its previous refusal to pay the bond, which was set by Landshut court near Munich in a ruling on July 20 as a condition to release the jet.
“The government will pay the 20-million-euro bond itself, to make clear that the crown prince has no involvement in the case which is between the government and a private company,” Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya said.
In the morning I’ll tolerate the inane Bangkok Post, used to struggle through The Nation but just couldn’t take such a blatant insult to my intelligence any more. Thai papers are pretty bad but sometimes you need access to local news.
As to blogs Bangkok Pundit and Thailand Crisis were the best local political blogs. Pundit I much preferred in the old days when he actually allowed comments and discourse, as such now it is more an opinion piece rather than a blog. Thailand Crisis unfortunately shut down. Khikwai & Not The Nation also good but post irregularly.
Forums used to be Thai Visa, till they became another politically correct ad-fest with fascist moderators, that they banned me for daring to call a spade a spade admittedly could have biased my opinion. Oddly enough for the most intellectual site for reader posts used to be Mango Sauce, even though some topics were not shall we say PC, there were some pretty astute and obviously well educated people posting there. Sadly the better sites are gone, hopefully something else will come along.
– Bangkok Pundit’s [http://asiancorrespondent.com/author/bangkokpundit/] consistency and frequency is impressive especially if it is one individual, as I assume it is.
– ISEAS page on facebook [http://www.facebook.com/pages/ISEAS/297630733174] updates regularly with particularly good analysis from residents Michael Montesano (mainly Thailand) and Ian Storey (mainly South China Sea). However, the admin does not tolerate even vaguely critical commentary on the articles posted.
– Asia Times Online, particularly Shawn Crispin [http://www.atimes.com]
– Asia Sentinel [http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php]
– Irrawaddy Magazine [http://www.irrawaddy.org/]
– The Lowy Institute’s Interpreter [http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/] which has the best banner design going
– Jon Russell [http://asiancorrespondent.com/author/jonathanruss/] blogs on the emergence of Social Media in SE Asia. And he does it well
I live in Chiang Mai. And in March of 2009 I found out about Bangkok Pundit, and from a post there, New Mandala and have been a regular reader of both ever since, and always have read the Bangkok Post.
Sam (218). Whoever turns out to own the 737, the damage is done. Kasit and Abhisit have sacrificed their country’s reputation for the sake of their own personal standing amongst the violent, corrupt, xenophobic rat-bags of their political faction. Credit for reparing some of the damage goes to Vajiralongkorn and his possible financial backer(s).
Evidence of ownership was presented by the Bangkok Pundit 2 weeks ago:
A) “According to the Thai Department of Civil Aviation, “HS-CMV” is a Boeing 737-400 with a CFM56-3C1 engine which was first registered on October 11, 2005. The owner is listed as “H.R.H. THE CROWN PRINCE MAHA VAJIRALONGKORN”
B) Further legal supporting evidence of ownership is the CP, as the declared plane owner, paying the German Ransom. This is a de facto act of ownership. The owner establishes ownership, in fact, by assuming responsibility for and making the payment.
Short of the RTAF unlikely filing a counter claim of ownership, this act of ownership, also establishes that no other party lays claim to the plane.
Maybe the ‘BKK lawyer’ might weigh in on this next point, but as a non-lawyer it seems to me that —
“If the German Court accepts the money from the CP, the Court’s act of Acceptance is a legal Admission by the Court that the CP is the owner and has the right and obligation to pay the ransom! (?).
C) This next ‘used to be’ evidence of ownership raises professionalism questions as to the – how the international aircraft registry folks determine plane ownership. The following paragraph is taken from an email I sent to a friend 10 days ago, in which the international registry clearly and emphatically stated the CP was the aircraft’s owner.
“The independent and international ‘Aircraft Registration Database’ site clearly states under Remarks:
Now that the Court Case has gained notoriety, without explanation, this Registry has been changed to “used by” the CP.
All I can say about this flip flopping by the registry is that I would think none of the parties to the suit would be able to rely or establish claims of legal ownership from such erratic and non-transparent
Registries.
Please note, Bau’s original press statement claimed it was one of these registries that Bau used to convince the Court to accept their suit. Ugh!
A question to the cynical commentators on this string over the last 2 weeks. Many of you pointed out the failure of the CP to take responsibility in the German Court as the plane owner. Implied, as well as openly stated, was the lack of Court action by the CP was proof of his NOT owning the plane.
Now that the CP’s spokespeople have stated that the CP will go to the German Court and take legal action in that Court, tell me, now that the CP has done what you asked him to do —
“In your minds, is this now evidence that he does own the plane?”
Why do I think in most cases, this will NOT be your conclusion?
I end by copying below Tarrin’s #2 comment making a point, though I would name other governments too, that seems still worth considering, despite an amazing 41 negative hits!
тАв 2 Tarrin // Jul 15, 2011 at 2:22 pm
I felt bad for the prince really, the whole thing happened because the Abhisit government doesn’t want to pay the debt and the prince took the fall for it.
13 41
That case must be make enquiry and the result is closer than with out asking questions.
So, our Public of Burma required any kinds of ways to defy the USDA or New Government. So please arrange to make enquiry with proper official channel in AFP and our senior politicians such as(VOA)/DVB and BBC’s channels.
We can get the all sources if required and the first thing is they must make confession report officially first and signed.
Facebook 
Twitter 
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Htoo Htoo Han the confessor
@ # 16
There are enough ills to justifying existing as well as future animosity among brothers in and outside Myanmar.
I wonder during the brief period of DASSK post election jubilee her supporters that spill the blood of ex MI of Ne Win will come out and confess or be made known by DVB?
I believe they presently reside/take refuge in Australia or the USA as well.
How about the Ramboes (pronounced RUM – BO) among New Mandala from Australia and else where?
Burma’s reading culture
If reading is the base for being intellectual the posters here are surely out of touch.
Ask anyone who try to learn Burmese.
“la langues de birmanie is one the most monolithic.”
It will take an average person in Myanmar to be adequately educated in Burmese, reading and writing ( at least 9 years, 8th Standard) if not more.
Even then understanding the basic nuances of la langues takes a life time. No provision for reasoning is promoted during those secondary school tears.
Intellectualism dictates that one will and must be able to reason and think.
Reasoning require a certain amount of truism as well facts.
In Myanmar The present education system Monastic as well as State controlled, remain, unchanged, a vestige of colonial system neither promote relevant facts to challenge the mind nor provide a bearing that prepare for any serendipity.
Beyond religious Canon very few true original Burmese lit exist.
No post grad curriculum in Burmese (History etc) and English, thanks to the 40+ year of military control, and western sanction again either prepare the participants or promotes opportunities to expand ones mind
Compounding the above facts and the decrepit nature of existence for the Majority of the citizenry, intellectualism usually is determined by short term survival.
The only relevant avenue of promoting intellect that will determine “seeing things differently” must come from the outside especially knowing the present ruling entity justifiable ‘western Xenophobic nature’.
As I see it no western democracy is willing to educate willing scholar from Myanmar even in Public Health.
Until this unrelenting sanction is lifted this tragic fact of survival dictating everything will continue.
What do you read on mainland Southeast Asia?
I would also be interested in seeing what books people recommend. I’ve just finished Pira Sudham’s autobiographical novels Monsoon Country and its sequel, The Force of Karma, and they are brilliant.
What do you read on mainland Southeast Asia?
New Mandala
Bangkok Pundit
Prachatai
Asian Correspondent’s Siam Voices
Asian Correspondent’s new blog: Inside Burma
Political Prisoners in Thailand
2Bangkok.com
The Isaan Record http://isaanrecord.com/
FACT
Asia Sentinel online
UPI Asia Online
Phnom Penh Post online
Irrawaddy online
Khmerization http://khmerization.blogspot.com/
KI Media (Sam Rainsy-friendly) http://ki-media.blogspot.com/
Irregular posters:
Khi Kwai
Sovereign Myth (Michael Connors)
Bangkok Post
The Nation (when I see a free/discarded copy)
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Sam @ 218:
A. The registration certificate raises a presumption of ownership, but it is not conclusive. A registration certificate contains only the signature of the person who’s filing the certificate and thereby claiming ownership, which obviously is self-serving and not conclusive proof. When an aircraft is sold or given away, there is a bill of sale signed by the previous owner and identifying the new owner. That’s the document that needs to be presented to the German court showing transfer of ownership from the RTAF to the CP (and it must show — credibly — that ownership was transferred before the plane was impounded).
B. Posting the bond (the “German ransom,” as you call it) does not prove ownership. Anyone with a strong interest in getting the property released while the seizure is contested may post a release bond. For example, if the aircraft were leased to an airline and the airline was losing money everyday because it cannot fly the plane, the airline might post the bond. Obviously that would not establish that the airline owns the plane — only that it needs to use it.
For the same reason, the court’s accepting the bond does not mean it agrees that the person posting the bond is the owner.
Consider that the Thai govt is apparently now willing to post the bond so the CP doesn’t have to (JohnW @220 and The Nation). How does that fit your theory that posting the bond proves ownership?
C. No one uses aircraft registries as proof of an airplane’s ownership — just as they don’t use registration certificates as proof. The registry is only the first step in identifying the owner. If you were buying a plane, you would not rely on the registry to confirm that the person taking your money is the true owner; you would do a thorough title search (looking at past bills of sale), just as you would do for land.
I too agree with Tarrin’s comment.
Mobile telephony in Burma
Before you get too excited about the societal transformation that easy access to voice (and internet??) communications could bring, as always with Burma there are some dismal statistics to digest.
Mobile penetration for 2010 was estimated at just 1% of the population. This compares with 68% for Laos (wow !) and 105% for Thailand (we all knew that one). Growth for Burma’s mobile penetration is estimated at just 12% p.a. – compare with their poor neighbour Bangladesh where growth is 30% p.a.
[Source : http://www.budde.com.au]
Even allowing for inaccuracy in these stats it is unlikely that Burma’s mobile penetration is at any critical mass yet and we have a very long way to go before “the near universal use of mobiles phones, like we see in Thailand”.
Your link describing the latest announcement from Myanmar Posts and Telecommunications is depressing reading. The “distribution” of handsets described amounts to perhaps 10% growth p.a. So no real change there. A state sponsored drive to market not-very-cheap handsets will not change much I think. And where are they building the base stations? Probably not in the delta area where U Blog would like to ring up and complain that his village is still without electricity or other basic services.
It is worth reflecting also on the history of politics and telecoms in Thailand. The huge sums of money involved in expanding Thailands telecoms networks in the early ’90’s became a driver for many of the machinations that were seen in the Chatchai-Suchinda era. And within a decade Thaksin had climbed to the top of the money tree using cosy “concessions” between the goverment and AIS his mobile phone company. Subsequently Thaksin visited the Burmese government whilst he was PM, although only to discuss state affairs of course, but I’m sure the Burmese took note of his way to fortune.
The reality is that the current Burmese elite view telecom development as just another way to enrich themselves whilst giving the side benefit of presenting a facade of modern technological progress.
I’m afraid we’ll have to gaze a long long way before we can see Burmese teenagers merrily facebooking each other from their internet enabled smart phones whilst hanging around the shopping malls.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Kasit contradicting the CP, isn’t that ground for LM? Then again, maybe EU20 mil. from the state, EU 20 mil. from the CP, case closed, all conflicts resolved.
Yingluck’s Foreign Minister
Mr Damage –9
He will fit right in with the rest of the Pui Thai ‘government’ then.
What do you read on mainland Southeast Asia?
Newspapers
– Bangkok Post
– Matichon
– Khao sot
Blogs
– New Mandala (of course)
– Political Prisoners in Thailand
– Bangkok Pundit
– Pratchathai
– HIS Stories (occasionally)
– Fringer (occasionally)
– Irrawaddy (occasionally)
– Not the Nation
And the academic journals having to do with SEA studies
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
I know $20 million is small change for a government but does a minister in a care taker government have the authority to order payment?
Yingluck’s Foreign Minister
He is a banker, the most vile and corrupt group of parasites in the history of civilization, as such honesty, fairness or decency are likely concepts he has never contemplated in philosophical introspection.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Sam – woops
The prince’s offer prompted the Thai government to change its previous refusal to pay the bond, which was set by Landshut court near Munich in a ruling on July 20 as a condition to release the jet.
“The government will pay the 20-million-euro bond itself, to make clear that the crown prince has no involvement in the case which is between the government and a private company,” Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya said.
What do you read on mainland Southeast Asia?
In the morning I’ll tolerate the inane Bangkok Post, used to struggle through The Nation but just couldn’t take such a blatant insult to my intelligence any more. Thai papers are pretty bad but sometimes you need access to local news.
As to blogs Bangkok Pundit and Thailand Crisis were the best local political blogs. Pundit I much preferred in the old days when he actually allowed comments and discourse, as such now it is more an opinion piece rather than a blog. Thailand Crisis unfortunately shut down. Khikwai & Not The Nation also good but post irregularly.
Forums used to be Thai Visa, till they became another politically correct ad-fest with fascist moderators, that they banned me for daring to call a spade a spade admittedly could have biased my opinion. Oddly enough for the most intellectual site for reader posts used to be Mango Sauce, even though some topics were not shall we say PC, there were some pretty astute and obviously well educated people posting there. Sadly the better sites are gone, hopefully something else will come along.
What do you read on mainland Southeast Asia?
– Bangkok Pundit’s [http://asiancorrespondent.com/author/bangkokpundit/] consistency and frequency is impressive especially if it is one individual, as I assume it is.
– ISEAS page on facebook [http://www.facebook.com/pages/ISEAS/297630733174] updates regularly with particularly good analysis from residents Michael Montesano (mainly Thailand) and Ian Storey (mainly South China Sea). However, the admin does not tolerate even vaguely critical commentary on the articles posted.
– Asia Times Online, particularly Shawn Crispin [http://www.atimes.com]
– Asia Sentinel [http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php]
– Irrawaddy Magazine [http://www.irrawaddy.org/]
– The Lowy Institute’s Interpreter [http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/] which has the best banner design going
– Jon Russell [http://asiancorrespondent.com/author/jonathanruss/] blogs on the emergence of Social Media in SE Asia. And he does it well
What do you read on mainland Southeast Asia?
I live in Chiang Mai. And in March of 2009 I found out about Bangkok Pundit, and from a post there, New Mandala and have been a regular reader of both ever since, and always have read the Bangkok Post.
What do you read on mainland Southeast Asia?
I read Radio Free Asia (http://www.rfa.org) and the Thinking it Over blog (http://www.thinking21.org)
Yingluck and Thailand’s women
This is a serious question: Why are there boobs in a box? Don’t get it. Can someone enlighten me?
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Sam (218). Whoever turns out to own the 737, the damage is done. Kasit and Abhisit have sacrificed their country’s reputation for the sake of their own personal standing amongst the violent, corrupt, xenophobic rat-bags of their political faction. Credit for reparing some of the damage goes to Vajiralongkorn and his possible financial backer(s).
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Re Arthurson #208
Evidence of ownership was presented by the Bangkok Pundit 2 weeks ago:
A) “According to the Thai Department of Civil Aviation, “HS-CMV” is a Boeing 737-400 with a CFM56-3C1 engine which was first registered on October 11, 2005. The owner is listed as “H.R.H. THE CROWN PRINCE MAHA VAJIRALONGKORN”
http://asiancorrespondent.com/59962/liquidator-seizes-royal-thai-air-force-plane-in-munich-an-update/ [quote is found under point 2.]
B) Further legal supporting evidence of ownership is the CP, as the declared plane owner, paying the German Ransom. This is a de facto act of ownership. The owner establishes ownership, in fact, by assuming responsibility for and making the payment.
Short of the RTAF unlikely filing a counter claim of ownership, this act of ownership, also establishes that no other party lays claim to the plane.
Maybe the ‘BKK lawyer’ might weigh in on this next point, but as a non-lawyer it seems to me that —
“If the German Court accepts the money from the CP, the Court’s act of Acceptance is a legal Admission by the Court that the CP is the owner and has the right and obligation to pay the ransom! (?).
C) This next ‘used to be’ evidence of ownership raises professionalism questions as to the – how the international aircraft registry folks determine plane ownership. The following paragraph is taken from an email I sent to a friend 10 days ago, in which the international registry clearly and emphatically stated the CP was the aircraft’s owner.
“The independent and international ‘Aircraft Registration Database’ site clearly states under Remarks:
“…owner HRH Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn,…”
http://www.airframes.org/reg/hscmv
Now that the Court Case has gained notoriety, without explanation, this Registry has been changed to “used by” the CP.
All I can say about this flip flopping by the registry is that I would think none of the parties to the suit would be able to rely or establish claims of legal ownership from such erratic and non-transparent
Registries.
Please note, Bau’s original press statement claimed it was one of these registries that Bau used to convince the Court to accept their suit. Ugh!
A question to the cynical commentators on this string over the last 2 weeks. Many of you pointed out the failure of the CP to take responsibility in the German Court as the plane owner. Implied, as well as openly stated, was the lack of Court action by the CP was proof of his NOT owning the plane.
Now that the CP’s spokespeople have stated that the CP will go to the German Court and take legal action in that Court, tell me, now that the CP has done what you asked him to do —
“In your minds, is this now evidence that he does own the plane?”
Why do I think in most cases, this will NOT be your conclusion?
I end by copying below Tarrin’s #2 comment making a point, though I would name other governments too, that seems still worth considering, despite an amazing 41 negative hits!
тАв 2 Tarrin // Jul 15, 2011 at 2:22 pm
I felt bad for the prince really, the whole thing happened because the Abhisit government doesn’t want to pay the debt and the prince took the fall for it.
13 41
Htoo Htoo Han the confessor
That case must be make enquiry and the result is closer than with out asking questions.
So, our Public of Burma required any kinds of ways to defy the USDA or New Government. So please arrange to make enquiry with proper official channel in AFP and our senior politicians such as(VOA)/DVB and BBC’s channels.
We can get the all sources if required and the first thing is they must make confession report officially first and signed.