Not one of these indignant officials has given a single voice to the possibility that this all might have to do with bad Karma arising from wrongful acts in the past, present and future committed by the state and willing citizenry.
Listening to one Thai official yesterday cite how independent the Thai judiciary was from the government and how governments (Germany) should refrain from taking positions vis-a-vis court decisions (the plane) is yet another reminder that the Thai ethic just won’t accept being out and out wrong about anything…and as a result having to accept responsibility and pay for it. It is just that there is nothing in the malethic nature of the beast to admit wrongdoing and to accept other than token (no-cost) responsibility.
I agree and disagree with your comments. You are absolutely right that the vast majority of Laotians are not at all concerned with corruption in the country, at all levels of the government. They are more concerned with how to provide the next meal to feed the family, where to fish, where to harvest crops or hunt for wild animals. This is overwhelmingly more important than worrying about government corruption. Why? Because there’s not a damn thing they can do about it! Best to just “play along” or risk being persecuted if not worse.
To your point, yes there’s a lot of the younger generation getting educated, local or foreign land. And these youths are concerned with employment opportunities when they graduate. Where are the jobs in Laos? In Laos alone every year there are hundreds graduating with bachelors to “MBA’s”. But where are they jobs? I was told by a close relative that many students, of wealthy background or otherwise, PAY companies to hire them! Can you believe that? These kids PAY to get hired! Ridiculous! Ordinary citizens turns a blind eye when it comes to corruption, bribery or blackmale. Why?
1 – they don’t dare challenge authority, afraid of persecution
2 – they themselves profit from it. Why would these people want change only to lose their “way of living?”
You would think and hope that these educated youths will understand discipline, principles, right vs wrong and that when they have the opportunity to make a difference and change a “custom” for the better.. THEY WILL DO THAT! Yet.. they too fall into corruption themselves..
Lastly – You state that the only western countries (governments) are concerned with corruption. That’s because they want TO END CORRUPTION! They want the people to have a voice and be heard! This beautiful thing is called FREEDOM!
There was a time when the Burmese regarded a printed word (traditionally inscribed on palm leaf) as an individual shrine or stupa. They wouldn’t step on printed paper even decades after WWII.
Education is still deemed the most precious thing that children may have, and literacy rate historically used to be one of the highest in the world thanks to informal monastic schools run by the monks.
When in recent times education comes with a price tag attached to it in an ‘open market’ and ‘globalised’ economy of sorts, there’s even been a revival of monastic schools in some areas to step into the breach where the state has done a cop out.
The challenge lies not so much in the quantity accessed as in quality as has been pointed out above by MArtin and Tom, in addition to the inevitable encroachment by satellite TV and DVDs.
Just as a society in general and its leaders in particular can knowingly or unknowingly choose to nurture baser human instincts such as individualism, competition, selfishness and greed at the expense of the nobler ones such as collectivism, cooperation, altruism, generosity and contentment, they can do the same with the choice between hedonistic idiocy and intellectual pursuits.
р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕╕р╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕н @155: They could certainly try to submit a forged document. But it would not work. There is ample other evidence of the chain of title, such as the aircraft registry, and probably public access to old versions of the registry.
Also, the court isn’t going to consider just one document, and would be suspicious if Thailand presented only one document for its evidence. If I were the liquidator, I would ask for documents that reflect such things as (1) who’s been paying the insurance premiums on the plane since before the issue of ownership arose, (2) who’s been paying for maintenance, etc. If such documents show that Thailand has been taking responsibility for the plane as if it were the owner, that would be more powerful evidence than a document that purports to show a transfer of ownership (even if the document is genuine).
The German embassy in Bangkok has issued a statement that makes an important point I had overlooked in describing the court proceedings in the U.S.:
… The aircraft was impounded after an international arbitration panel ruled in summer 2009 that the Thai state should pay compensation to the company Walter Bau AG. The judgement is final. In line with the Investment Protection Treaty between Germany and Thailand, the German Government expects the Thai Government to fulfil its obligation under the judgement as soon as possible.
Reports in the Thai media about ongoing proceedings in New York in this connection are misleading. The proceedings in New York merely concern the question as to whether a compulsory enforcement is also possible in the US. This will do nothing to alter Thailand’s obligation to pay compensation. …
If Thailand happens to win its appeal in the U.S., the only result will be that the arbitration award is no longer a judgment of the New York federal court, which means that particular judgment can no longer be enforced. But Thailand remains obligated to pay according to the 1999 arbitration award. And the Germans could still petition to have the award entered as judgments in other courts, in the U.S. or elsewhere.
The U.S. proceedings are not examining the merits and propriety of the initial arbitration decision. The U.S. appeals court is only reviewing the procedural decision, by the lower U.S. court, to enter the award as a judgment in New York.
I overlooked the fact that the airplane impoundment is not being conducted to enforce the U.S. judgment, but rather to enforce the earlier award. Therefore, even if Thailand prevails in its U.S. appeal, that would have no effect on the ongoing impoundment proceedings.
An article about Esan (Northeast of Thailand) can be accessed from SASJ;
GRANDSTAFF, Terry B. and GRANDSTAFF, Somluckrat LIMPINUNTANA, Viriya and SUPHANCHAIMAT, Nongluck. Rainfed Revolution in Northeast Thailand. Southeast Asian Studies 46(3):
This debate is endless. By reading doesn’t mean you are intellectual. Especially in Burma where military controls the contents and what people get to read. “Improved electricity may lead to less people reading” – This also doesn’t mean that people are less intellectual in anyway. Thailand has well known cable TV and channels like Discovery, NatGeo and Animal planet are great for new knowledge. Also free TV offers great shows as well. Can I predict that people will come up with internet access for further debate ?
р╣Гр╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕╕р╕Кр╕╡р╕н @155
Excuse me butting in. Ah, now you are thinking like a Thai politician. My guess is they have already thought of this but It would look a bit suspicious if they came up with it after all this time. I suppose they could say it got lodged at the back of the filing cabinet and have only just found it.
Thank you BKK Lawyer for your enlightening comments and thank you Sam for some pertinent questions.
Quite frankly one could easily argue we would be better served by Burmese immigrants that Muslims from the Middle East considering their appalling record of lack of integration, being permanently on welfare and pushing for their own laws separate from the rest of us.
That aside, this is just a way for Gillard to try yo relieve the political pressure from unpopular Muslim boat arrivals. Like everything she does the high spending and waste is irrelevant, after all the bill goes to the tax payers just like from her and her compatriots salaries.
If it is a Malaysian scam for money as likely, that doesn’t matter, the fools in Canberra will write it off as foreign aid. This whole affair has no doubt raised Australia’s standing in the region as a soft touch. Relations with Malaysia have sure changed since Keating.
It is sad that the Thais aren’t as freedom loving as Australians and unlike Australians will meekly put up with this type of government intrusion and fascism treating them like criminals.
From the Australian Financial Review –
“THE TAX DETECTIVES: The Tax Office’s elite fraud squad and its super computer can see what you’re doing, when you’re doing it”
“It’s time to get your affairs in order – the Tax Office is armed with a new super computer that will mine your personal data in real time.”
“‘We can search in real time and that data is updated every night, so we’re no more than 24 hours behind. It’s all very CSI.’ Bruce Paynter, ATO.”
“To be introduced in full for the first time this tax season, the system summons every dollar you’ve earned, every property, car or boat you own, and every business connection you have, from the tenants who rent your investment property to the directors who sit on your company’s board.”
Just so glad I live in a truly free and superior western country where the concept of the government serving the people is fully understood…
р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕╕р╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕н Bkk lawyer can speak for himself but one assumes that they have been busy doing that already but the German court didn’t find it convincing thus far, hence the demand for a security deposit.
BKK lawyer, Fee payment — lunch on me, near Asoke and Sukhumvit, any weekday, ask webmaster for my email.
Briefly,
1. Most of your reply as to ‘who, did what, when’ from BP is restating what I sent you.
—Assuming you are correct, you make a powerful point about the puzzle of Thailand’s failing to simply file a stay of judgment re their lost suit.
2. All you state here, you’ve nicely stated before. Unanswered is my question as to “fairness” re the cost in time, money and ever-more litigation a winning Thailand must go through in order to recover “…much, if not all, of certain costs of the litigation…”
3. I fear you misunderstood, “Why” the Thais say they are going to sue the Germans. It is not to liberate THE plane. It is to establish that the German suit against the Thai Government is based on the False premises, I laid out for you. See again: http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/241834.html
The plane would ‘incidentally’ be freed as the German suit is thrown out of Court.
Ralph Kramden #151— Please excuse any unintended disrespect, but are you an in-law of Jackie Gleason of the Honeymooners?
As to why the CP is not suing: The Thai Government has been sued and is answering the suit brought against them. And, the successful legal pursuit by the Thai Government’s suit would ‘incidentally’ free THE plane. Keep in mind the Thai Government says it is going to counter-sue, not just to resolve this case, but to prevent any future similar cases.
Ralph, if you were the innocent victim of a false suit brought against a third party, would you go to the inconvenience and expense to independently sue, when the third party’s counter suit will free your plane with neither cost nor effort on your part?
“The younger Burmese I know seem anti-intellectual by comparison.”
Dom
Without quantifying the # of Burmese you might know I am quite sure you really do not mean to make this damning statement knowing Education as the indicator of reading:
1) Printed materials unlike Thailand is hardly available a few miles outside any cities knowing 2/3 of population in Myanmar is rural.
2) Most of the educated ones has either migrated, in the process or struggling to survive everyday they can just like the majority in the country.
3) Educating the masses, a Ne Win’s era pet motto, so degarded thanks to SPDC’s top dogs view on education and the west own useless careless way of blocking every processes that might bring any semblance of western ideas into this xenophobic realm of the present ruling entity.
4) Since being allowed to privatized, almost every private schools promising Singapore style education, are filled to the capacity and new ones has to offer free iPad to attract others just to compete.
5) Even here @ New Mandala the ever truism of the thirst for learning English language within Myanmar will absolutely contradict your assertion.
There must never be any comparison made b/t Myanmar and Thailand in anyway if how much the citizenry has to suffer under it own government as well as the west iniquities are not mentioned.
BKK lawyer, quick question for you, and as this is my first one I would hope you consider this part of your ‘free consultation.’ Anyway, my question is: what is to keep the Thai government from–after the fact–simply create a document of transfer of ownership? In other words, can’t the Thai government have the appropriate official sign a document transferring ownership of the airplane and then date it such that it matches with their previous statements about when the transfer of ownership took place?
The Act will now no doubt romp through parliament and be enthusiastically used by the new government to suppress all opposition to the resurgent Shinawatra dynasty. Som nam naa.
I am not sure that Bavarians would agree with Sam’s assessment of the Landshut court as a “backwater court”. Landshut is the capital of the administrative region of Lower Bavaria and is located only 40 km from Franz Josef Strauss Airport where the plane is impounded. As such the court no doubt has extensive experience of cases relating to the airport. The airport is not located within the munipalities of either Munich or Berlin. So why would it have been more appropriate for courts in those cities to hear the case?
Remember that Suwannabhumi Airport is in Samut Prakarn province, not in the Bangkok Metropolis. Thus a similar situation might arise, if a foreign plane were to be impounded there, as a “backwater” Samut Prakarn court might hear the case. In policing terms, the tiny hick police station of Rajathewa has jurisdiction there, although some have argued that it should be made part of the Bangkok Metropolitan police jurisdiction.
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Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Not one of these indignant officials has given a single voice to the possibility that this all might have to do with bad Karma arising from wrongful acts in the past, present and future committed by the state and willing citizenry.
Listening to one Thai official yesterday cite how independent the Thai judiciary was from the government and how governments (Germany) should refrain from taking positions vis-a-vis court decisions (the plane) is yet another reminder that the Thai ethic just won’t accept being out and out wrong about anything…and as a result having to accept responsibility and pay for it. It is just that there is nothing in the malethic nature of the beast to admit wrongdoing and to accept other than token (no-cost) responsibility.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Many thanks to BKK Lawyer for the (as usual) clear explanations for us mere non-legal mortals.
FWIW, there is more contained in a new post from Bangkok Pundit:
http://asiancorrespondent.com/61008/german-embassy-thai-government-was-asked-repeatedly-to-comply-with-the-walter-bau-judgement/
Corruption and media exposure in Laos
@ JingJai..
I agree and disagree with your comments. You are absolutely right that the vast majority of Laotians are not at all concerned with corruption in the country, at all levels of the government. They are more concerned with how to provide the next meal to feed the family, where to fish, where to harvest crops or hunt for wild animals. This is overwhelmingly more important than worrying about government corruption. Why? Because there’s not a damn thing they can do about it! Best to just “play along” or risk being persecuted if not worse.
To your point, yes there’s a lot of the younger generation getting educated, local or foreign land. And these youths are concerned with employment opportunities when they graduate. Where are the jobs in Laos? In Laos alone every year there are hundreds graduating with bachelors to “MBA’s”. But where are they jobs? I was told by a close relative that many students, of wealthy background or otherwise, PAY companies to hire them! Can you believe that? These kids PAY to get hired! Ridiculous! Ordinary citizens turns a blind eye when it comes to corruption, bribery or blackmale. Why?
1 – they don’t dare challenge authority, afraid of persecution
2 – they themselves profit from it. Why would these people want change only to lose their “way of living?”
You would think and hope that these educated youths will understand discipline, principles, right vs wrong and that when they have the opportunity to make a difference and change a “custom” for the better.. THEY WILL DO THAT! Yet.. they too fall into corruption themselves..
Lastly – You state that the only western countries (governments) are concerned with corruption. That’s because they want TO END CORRUPTION! They want the people to have a voice and be heard! This beautiful thing is called FREEDOM!
Burma’s reading culture
There was a time when the Burmese regarded a printed word (traditionally inscribed on palm leaf) as an individual shrine or stupa. They wouldn’t step on printed paper even decades after WWII.
Education is still deemed the most precious thing that children may have, and literacy rate historically used to be one of the highest in the world thanks to informal monastic schools run by the monks.
When in recent times education comes with a price tag attached to it in an ‘open market’ and ‘globalised’ economy of sorts, there’s even been a revival of monastic schools in some areas to step into the breach where the state has done a cop out.
The challenge lies not so much in the quantity accessed as in quality as has been pointed out above by MArtin and Tom, in addition to the inevitable encroachment by satellite TV and DVDs.
Just as a society in general and its leaders in particular can knowingly or unknowingly choose to nurture baser human instincts such as individualism, competition, selfishness and greed at the expense of the nobler ones such as collectivism, cooperation, altruism, generosity and contentment, they can do the same with the choice between hedonistic idiocy and intellectual pursuits.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The “Thai Law & Policy” blog has a couple of informative posts on the arbitration/aircraft issues:
A Possible Solution to the Arbitration Row with Walter Bau?: https://thailawandpolicy.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/a-possible-solution-to-the-arbitration-row-with-walter-bau/
Arbitration with the Thai Government?: https://thailawandpolicy.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/arbitration-with-the-thai-government/
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕╕р╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕н @155: They could certainly try to submit a forged document. But it would not work. There is ample other evidence of the chain of title, such as the aircraft registry, and probably public access to old versions of the registry.
Also, the court isn’t going to consider just one document, and would be suspicious if Thailand presented only one document for its evidence. If I were the liquidator, I would ask for documents that reflect such things as (1) who’s been paying the insurance premiums on the plane since before the issue of ownership arose, (2) who’s been paying for maintenance, etc. If such documents show that Thailand has been taking responsibility for the plane as if it were the owner, that would be more powerful evidence than a document that purports to show a transfer of ownership (even if the document is genuine).
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The German embassy in Bangkok has issued a statement that makes an important point I had overlooked in describing the court proceedings in the U.S.:
If Thailand happens to win its appeal in the U.S., the only result will be that the arbitration award is no longer a judgment of the New York federal court, which means that particular judgment can no longer be enforced. But Thailand remains obligated to pay according to the 1999 arbitration award. And the Germans could still petition to have the award entered as judgments in other courts, in the U.S. or elsewhere.
The U.S. proceedings are not examining the merits and propriety of the initial arbitration decision. The U.S. appeals court is only reviewing the procedural decision, by the lower U.S. court, to enter the award as a judgment in New York.
I overlooked the fact that the airplane impoundment is not being conducted to enforce the U.S. judgment, but rather to enforce the earlier award. Therefore, even if Thailand prevails in its U.S. appeal, that would have no effect on the ongoing impoundment proceedings.
Relaunch of Southeast Asian Studies
An article about Esan (Northeast of Thailand) can be accessed from SASJ;
GRANDSTAFF, Terry B. and GRANDSTAFF, Somluckrat LIMPINUNTANA, Viriya and SUPHANCHAIMAT, Nongluck. Rainfed Revolution in Northeast Thailand. Southeast Asian Studies 46(3):
Burma’s reading culture
This debate is endless. By reading doesn’t mean you are intellectual. Especially in Burma where military controls the contents and what people get to read. “Improved electricity may lead to less people reading” – This also doesn’t mean that people are less intellectual in anyway. Thailand has well known cable TV and channels like Discovery, NatGeo and Animal planet are great for new knowledge. Also free TV offers great shows as well. Can I predict that people will come up with internet access for further debate ?
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
р╣Гр╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕╕р╕Кр╕╡р╕н @155
Excuse me butting in. Ah, now you are thinking like a Thai politician. My guess is they have already thought of this but It would look a bit suspicious if they came up with it after all this time. I suppose they could say it got lodged at the back of the filing cabinet and have only just found it.
Thank you BKK Lawyer for your enlightening comments and thank you Sam for some pertinent questions.
Regional responses to trafficking
Quite frankly one could easily argue we would be better served by Burmese immigrants that Muslims from the Middle East considering their appalling record of lack of integration, being permanently on welfare and pushing for their own laws separate from the rest of us.
That aside, this is just a way for Gillard to try yo relieve the political pressure from unpopular Muslim boat arrivals. Like everything she does the high spending and waste is irrelevant, after all the bill goes to the tax payers just like from her and her compatriots salaries.
If it is a Malaysian scam for money as likely, that doesn’t matter, the fools in Canberra will write it off as foreign aid. This whole affair has no doubt raised Australia’s standing in the region as a soft touch. Relations with Malaysia have sure changed since Keating.
Translating Thai political restrictions
It is sad that the Thais aren’t as freedom loving as Australians and unlike Australians will meekly put up with this type of government intrusion and fascism treating them like criminals.
From the Australian Financial Review –
“THE TAX DETECTIVES: The Tax Office’s elite fraud squad and its super computer can see what you’re doing, when you’re doing it”
“It’s time to get your affairs in order – the Tax Office is armed with a new super computer that will mine your personal data in real time.”
“‘We can search in real time and that data is updated every night, so we’re no more than 24 hours behind. It’s all very CSI.’ Bruce Paynter, ATO.”
“To be introduced in full for the first time this tax season, the system summons every dollar you’ve earned, every property, car or boat you own, and every business connection you have, from the tenants who rent your investment property to the directors who sit on your company’s board.”
Just so glad I live in a truly free and superior western country where the concept of the government serving the people is fully understood…
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕╕р╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕н Bkk lawyer can speak for himself but one assumes that they have been busy doing that already but the German court didn’t find it convincing thus far, hence the demand for a security deposit.
Translating Thai political restrictions
Lots of academic exercises and personal critics which considered wasted.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
BKK lawyer, Fee payment — lunch on me, near Asoke and Sukhumvit, any weekday, ask webmaster for my email.
Briefly,
1. Most of your reply as to ‘who, did what, when’ from BP is restating what I sent you.
—Assuming you are correct, you make a powerful point about the puzzle of Thailand’s failing to simply file a stay of judgment re their lost suit.
2. All you state here, you’ve nicely stated before. Unanswered is my question as to “fairness” re the cost in time, money and ever-more litigation a winning Thailand must go through in order to recover “…much, if not all, of certain costs of the litigation…”
3. I fear you misunderstood, “Why” the Thais say they are going to sue the Germans. It is not to liberate THE plane. It is to establish that the German suit against the Thai Government is based on the False premises, I laid out for you. See again:
http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/241834.html
The plane would ‘incidentally’ be freed as the German suit is thrown out of Court.
Ralph Kramden #151— Please excuse any unintended disrespect, but are you an in-law of Jackie Gleason of the Honeymooners?
As to why the CP is not suing: The Thai Government has been sued and is answering the suit brought against them. And, the successful legal pursuit by the Thai Government’s suit would ‘incidentally’ free THE plane. Keep in mind the Thai Government says it is going to counter-sue, not just to resolve this case, but to prevent any future similar cases.
Ralph, if you were the innocent victim of a false suit brought against a third party, would you go to the inconvenience and expense to independently sue, when the third party’s counter suit will free your plane with neither cost nor effort on your part?
Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra
[…] Farrelly)ыКФ ьЭ┤ы▓И ьДаъ▒░ыбЬ эГЬъ╡ньЭ┤ эИмыкЕэХШъ│а ып╝ьг╝ьаБьЭ╕ ьДаъ▒░ ьаИь░иьЧР ыМАэХЬ ьЛаыв░ые╝ эЪМы│╡эХШъ╕╕ эЭмызЭэЦИыЛд. ьШдыКШ ьК╣ыжмыКФ 2006ыЕД 9ьЫФ 19ьЭ╝ ъ╡░ы╢АьЭШ ь┐аыН░эГАыбЬ ым╝ыЯмыВЬ ьаХъ╢МьЭШ […]
Burma’s reading culture
“The younger Burmese I know seem anti-intellectual by comparison.”
Dom
Without quantifying the # of Burmese you might know I am quite sure you really do not mean to make this damning statement knowing Education as the indicator of reading:
1) Printed materials unlike Thailand is hardly available a few miles outside any cities knowing 2/3 of population in Myanmar is rural.
2) Most of the educated ones has either migrated, in the process or struggling to survive everyday they can just like the majority in the country.
3) Educating the masses, a Ne Win’s era pet motto, so degarded thanks to SPDC’s top dogs view on education and the west own useless careless way of blocking every processes that might bring any semblance of western ideas into this xenophobic realm of the present ruling entity.
4) Since being allowed to privatized, almost every private schools promising Singapore style education, are filled to the capacity and new ones has to offer free iPad to attract others just to compete.
5) Even here @ New Mandala the ever truism of the thirst for learning English language within Myanmar will absolutely contradict your assertion.
There must never be any comparison made b/t Myanmar and Thailand in anyway if how much the citizenry has to suffer under it own government as well as the west iniquities are not mentioned.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
BKK lawyer, quick question for you, and as this is my first one I would hope you consider this part of your ‘free consultation.’ Anyway, my question is: what is to keep the Thai government from–after the fact–simply create a document of transfer of ownership? In other words, can’t the Thai government have the appropriate official sign a document transferring ownership of the airplane and then date it such that it matches with their previous statements about when the transfer of ownership took place?
Translating Thai political restrictions
The Act will now no doubt romp through parliament and be enthusiastically used by the new government to suppress all opposition to the resurgent Shinawatra dynasty. Som nam naa.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
I am not sure that Bavarians would agree with Sam’s assessment of the Landshut court as a “backwater court”. Landshut is the capital of the administrative region of Lower Bavaria and is located only 40 km from Franz Josef Strauss Airport where the plane is impounded. As such the court no doubt has extensive experience of cases relating to the airport. The airport is not located within the munipalities of either Munich or Berlin. So why would it have been more appropriate for courts in those cities to hear the case?
Remember that Suwannabhumi Airport is in Samut Prakarn province, not in the Bangkok Metropolis. Thus a similar situation might arise, if a foreign plane were to be impounded there, as a “backwater” Samut Prakarn court might hear the case. In policing terms, the tiny hick police station of Rajathewa has jurisdiction there, although some have argued that it should be made part of the Bangkok Metropolitan police jurisdiction.