Wonder what Abhisit would have said to comment on Malaysian police’s liberal use of tear gas against protesters today. Never lost for words, Abhisit certainly said: “At least no one was killed in Kuala Lumpur, unlike when Somchai’s police used tear gas in October 2008.”
Opposition leader Anwar was injured though. Hope NM will pay more attention to Malaysia from now on:
I have a reliable source who went back to her village up in Isaan and spoke about vote buying from numerous parties and she mentioned that the Reds paid big money. She also mentioned that in her particular village Yellows were about 30%. She also mentioned these middlemen who were paid to wrangle up votes and were given cars. She said these middlemen had ways of counting votes to show that this money was indeed doing something. This is just one little village, but I found what she said interesting. I’ll speak to her again to confirm information.
A colleague of mine also told me that his partner’s family considered election day a big payoff collecting money from all sides. For an extremely poor family this money becomes a lot of money if there are ten kids etc.
I have been amazed hearing about all of this, but as I tell everyone I know who gets self righteous about it: who isn’t paid off in elections one way or the other? Should we not think that democracy IS having a positive effect even through vote buying because money is trickling down at least. It’s a start.
But all of this talk about how the reds buy their elections is a bunch of baloney because from what I’ve heard all parties are involved in it…
I hope this will send a strong message that cooking is not allowed in Thailand. Law must be respected. Former PM Samak was kicked out of power for a cooking show, and here comes new PM Yingluck trying her hand at cooking. What cheek!
Now, let’s all reconcile and get back to good old corrupt ways where all relevant parties get their share of the cake, and feeble elected governments provide superficial legitimacy without meddling too much with important stuff.
@#9
That is exactly the point .
This regime has transform itself in to a defiant, I don’t give a damn state and here @ New Mandala and DASSK supporters are still whipping the sanction /DASSK dead horse.
Years ago there were pictures of the King and Queen together all over Thailand, I have noticed lately though that now there only seems to be pictures of the King on his own…I’ll let he Thailand experts figure that one out.
There are just laws and unjust laws, perhaps some here that believe the current Thai legal framework and Military Constitution are democratic would also like to comment on dissent in Burma or North Korea as an affront the the law of the land.
Seems to me that there are foreigners that support the establishment as they believe lifestyle choices they have made will be sustained, well that is the underlying vibe I get on forums. Either that or most people are just closet Nazis salivating over the thought of rhythmic marching jackboots keeping the peasants where they belong, as maids, gardeners and cheap semen receptacles .
This doesn’t surprise me as much as the elections being allowed to go ahead in the first place. The Establishment has gone too far and since 2006 to allow the country to reset itself. Besides, it is simply too risky for them not to have a loyalist government in place during these very uncertain times.
“We will hear a lot of Yingluck in months to come, but it is worth pausing to mourn Abhisit’s career.
He was a very good friend of Australia and a genuine liberal. Eton and Oxford educated, somehow or other his cosmopolitanism, good looks and general smoothness counted against him, especially with Thailand’s rural poor.
But I admire Abhisit and believe he was a leader of courage and decency. He has been prime minister these past two years, and although Thailand is profoundly polarised, I don’t think anyone else from the political establishment could have held the nation together, or promoted reconciliation, more than Abhisit did.”
Worth looking at the comments under that Bangkok Post article *- specifically #24 from Slimdog (whom I know from previous examples to be consistently accurate on Thai legal matters):
“A few points:
The law the Democrat party stated in the Organic law on Political parties, not the actual Constitution.
According to article 97, being an advisor to a political party, on the basis that the individual is not an executive is not prohibited.
Currently, if Peau Thai was dissolved then only one individual would lose his seat and that is the party chairman. No other MP’s are members of the Puea Thai executive board.”
What we have is ‘guided-democracy’, democracy in outlook, but in reality, everything is dictated by the PM! The PM-of the day will determine what is allowed, and what’s not. One cannot even gather around in public unless it’s deemed appropriate by the ruling junta, who have no qualms to unleash the whole police force, with it’s canon trucks & teargas, on it’s people if they decide to gather anyway. The Police Chief thinks he serve the PM and his party, and not it’s People. The Election Commisisons does all it can to ensure that the ruling party wins. The Court rules in favour of the ruling party. Washington turns a blind eye on this as they’re afraid of the Islamic party from the opposition. Nobody from the western world condems the PM who still stands accused in the eyes of its people of being involved in the murder of a Mongolian woman who was blown up with C4, which can only be obtained by the military.
Rule of law means that all are subject to the same laws – including the ruler. Traditionally in China there was Rule by Law not Rule of Law. Law was seen as the means by which the ruler exercised control (over everyone else). As a result, law was not seen as something to be obeyed but rather something to get around – unlike Western law which has a moral base so people obey the law because it is the right thing to do. Unfortunately Thailand has a Rule by Law system. Despite having a Buddhist majority obeying the law does not seem to have a moral dimension. Hence its misuse
“Funny enough I just read in the Post that the complaint about Yingluck’s cooking was made to the EC by Korat voter.”
Any and all complaints should warrant some kind of examination with the patently trivial/unfounded ditched at an early stage leaving any others to be investigated further and action taken if/as appropriate. In this instance, the complainant is said to have merely seen the YS cooking photo-op pic in a local newspaper (i.e. the complainant wasn’t even present to see if food was given out) and decided to send it to the EC for investigation – i.e. basically “on spec”.
For this story to grow from such tenuous beginnings suggests that its prominence is no accident.
“…by the comments on NM you would think the sky is falling.”
Given the frequency with which the sky has been made to fall – however improbably, that’s hardly surprising now, is it? Thrice bitten…..
I shared the skepticism but considered the “poor can be bought” sentiment that has been ingrained into the elite mind , it is no surprise that someone would attempt to gain vote that way since all they believe is the poor only vote for PT because they pays well.
Bart: indeed, and where were they when the 1997 constitution was thrown out by an illegal coup? Or was that all part of the “good coup” and the establishment of the military’s rule of law?
Laws that are made to keep the people’s representatives out of power and to entrench the power of the monarchy are undemocratic and unjust. The King’s monumentally foolish policy of keeping the monarchy above the law is behind this trouble. All that a civilian or military law-breaker has to do is to shout loudly enough that he is on the King’s business and no court will dare to touch him. This is the source of the double standard: why the courts never dare to touch the King’s party, the Democrats, and find ridiculous excuses to thwart the others. It is why the Yellow shirts can get away with murder and their opponents are imprisoned and murdered.
The King won the battle he was persuaded to fight with the Constitutionalists many years ago. He established an opaque absolutist régime and continues to pose dishonestly as a Constitutional Monarch. The fact that he and his family are above the law is the core of absolutism. His intention may have been to avoid obstruction by quibbling lawyers of his efforts to do good, but he forgot Lord Acton’s famous dictum, “All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”. Now he has lived long enough to see the truth of it. Predictably, absolute power has been grossly abused by his unstable wife and son who are loathed and feared by the majority of the Thai people. He has lived long enough to witness, time and again, the majority’s desire to take the status of top patrons away from his own family and bestow it on another.
It can be argued that the story is one of a man who started out with good intentions, grasped the power that was offered to him, and found that neither he nor any human being could handle it without tragic consequences. More clearly, it is the story of a people whose tragic flaw is to willingly hand over too much power to one person or one family.
I could cite the name of a village (but won’t do it for evident reasons) where the Head of the village received from the Yellows 500 bath per voter, and distributed 300 to each, keeping the remaining 200 for himself. He was supposed to enforce a Yellow vote. Condition on this handout of money: either to reimburse all if the Yellow votes lose against the red’s or get a bullet in the head if he fails to reimburse. And of course the village voted Red by a large majority (without any cash from the Reds, as they were sure to win, and nobody reimbursed the Head of the village so far….
I find this very implausible.
1. Why would a headman in a clearly “red” area risk his support, reputation and, according to your account, even his life to try to persuade people to vote “yellow” (especially when it was clear that the “reds” would win)?
1a. Why would the “yellows” waste their money in an area of such strong “red” support?
2. Given the inevitable factionalism in village politics (and the fact that he was going against the clear majority view) why would no-one report him?
3. Would anyone imagine that money distributed would be reimbursed, especially to a headman who is so clearly out of touch with his village’s electoral opinion?
4. Why would anyone think that people would change their vote for only 300 baht?
5. How many headmen have been murdered post-election? If this sort of thing is common, as some suggest, there must be many disappointed candidates out there. Can we expect a spate of retribution killings?
I understand that you cannot name the village, but perhaps you could provide the province and a bit more context to fill the story out a bit.
I wonder if anyone in their party actually rues the day when they became embroiled in PAD/yellow/establishment games. Things may be very different now if they had actually denoucned the coup (without opposing it with street demos) and had stayed well clear of the PAD. And of course that they didnt not only lost them votes but also left them so badly undermined as a party that they are almost unelectable to government. All they seem to be now are the party that those that dont like Thaksin or who are scared of the reds vote for. Short term it has boosted their numbers over the Chuan past, but it has also put a lid on where those numbers can go. The urge for short term power has actually left them in a position where the long term goal of winning an election is now almost certainly a lot further off than it was back in 2005
When I first told the great story about Thai king including his real estate management company to an American. I was convinced that he was a great king. However my American friend told me that the king looked like a parasite to the country and his people. He pointed to me that he was so happy that he had no king to please in the United States.
I have been in the US for 25 years. I now agree with what he said.
To Vichai, LesAbbey, StanG and all the other born again “Rule of Law” apologists for the Thai “Democrat” Party, where were they when the “banned politicians” Newin and Barnham were so busy, so active, so involved, so “un-banned” in the sordid arrangements thru which Abhisit and the “Democrats” came into power?
(I still remember that classic and charming photo of Abhisit and Newin giving each other same Man Love when the deal was announced…)
And where were they when the “Democrat” Party and all its sarmy executives “escaped” being banned in the 258 million baht TPI illegal donation case which was ever so conveniently dropped due to a “procedural error” by the investigators/prosecutors.
It’s all so tedious and so “Double Standard” and in the end so boring……
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Malaysia a vibrant democracy!
Wonder what Abhisit would have said to comment on Malaysian police’s liberal use of tear gas against protesters today. Never lost for words, Abhisit certainly said: “At least no one was killed in Kuala Lumpur, unlike when Somchai’s police used tear gas in October 2008.”
Opposition leader Anwar was injured though. Hope NM will pay more attention to Malaysia from now on:
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/169433
Thailand’s corruption record
Another indicator to follow is the Press Freedom Index.
Here are Thailand’s rankings from 2002 to 2010 (a lower ranking is better):
2002: 22.75
2003: 19.67
2004: 14.00
2005: 28.00
2006: 33.50
2007: 53.50
2008: 34.50
2009: 44.00
2010: 56.83
Thailand is currently ranked 153 out of 178. This is down from 65 in 2002.
National lunacy
Andrew @33
I have a reliable source who went back to her village up in Isaan and spoke about vote buying from numerous parties and she mentioned that the Reds paid big money. She also mentioned that in her particular village Yellows were about 30%. She also mentioned these middlemen who were paid to wrangle up votes and were given cars. She said these middlemen had ways of counting votes to show that this money was indeed doing something. This is just one little village, but I found what she said interesting. I’ll speak to her again to confirm information.
A colleague of mine also told me that his partner’s family considered election day a big payoff collecting money from all sides. For an extremely poor family this money becomes a lot of money if there are ten kids etc.
I have been amazed hearing about all of this, but as I tell everyone I know who gets self righteous about it: who isn’t paid off in elections one way or the other? Should we not think that democracy IS having a positive effect even through vote buying because money is trickling down at least. It’s a start.
But all of this talk about how the reds buy their elections is a bunch of baloney because from what I’ve heard all parties are involved in it…
National lunacy
I hope this will send a strong message that cooking is not allowed in Thailand. Law must be respected. Former PM Samak was kicked out of power for a cooking show, and here comes new PM Yingluck trying her hand at cooking. What cheek!
Now, let’s all reconcile and get back to good old corrupt ways where all relevant parties get their share of the cake, and feeble elected governments provide superficial legitimacy without meddling too much with important stuff.
Kevin Rudd and Aung San Suu Kyi
@#9
That is exactly the point .
This regime has transform itself in to a defiant, I don’t give a damn state and here @ New Mandala and DASSK supporters are still whipping the sanction /DASSK dead horse.
National lunacy
Years ago there were pictures of the King and Queen together all over Thailand, I have noticed lately though that now there only seems to be pictures of the King on his own…I’ll let he Thailand experts figure that one out.
There are just laws and unjust laws, perhaps some here that believe the current Thai legal framework and Military Constitution are democratic would also like to comment on dissent in Burma or North Korea as an affront the the law of the land.
Seems to me that there are foreigners that support the establishment as they believe lifestyle choices they have made will be sustained, well that is the underlying vibe I get on forums. Either that or most people are just closet Nazis salivating over the thought of rhythmic marching jackboots keeping the peasants where they belong, as maids, gardeners and cheap semen receptacles .
National lunacy
This doesn’t surprise me as much as the elections being allowed to go ahead in the first place. The Establishment has gone too far and since 2006 to allow the country to reset itself. Besides, it is simply too risky for them not to have a loyalist government in place during these very uncertain times.
The army and the god king
Is to be “one of many deities” a promotion or demotion? And are their roles complementary or overlapping?
Malaysia a vibrant democracy!
If you want to know where Mr. Sheridan stands on democracy, you need only read his op-ed in the Australian:
URL: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/measured-grounds-for-optimism-about-new-thai-pm/story-e6frg6zo-1226089236030
EXTRACT:
“We will hear a lot of Yingluck in months to come, but it is worth pausing to mourn Abhisit’s career.
He was a very good friend of Australia and a genuine liberal. Eton and Oxford educated, somehow or other his cosmopolitanism, good looks and general smoothness counted against him, especially with Thailand’s rural poor.
But I admire Abhisit and believe he was a leader of courage and decency. He has been prime minister these past two years, and although Thailand is profoundly polarised, I don’t think anyone else from the political establishment could have held the nation together, or promoted reconciliation, more than Abhisit did.”
National lunacy
c11
Worth looking at the comments under that Bangkok Post article *- specifically #24 from Slimdog (whom I know from previous examples to be consistently accurate on Thai legal matters):
“A few points:
The law the Democrat party stated in the Organic law on Political parties, not the actual Constitution.
According to article 97, being an advisor to a political party, on the basis that the individual is not an executive is not prohibited.
Currently, if Peau Thai was dissolved then only one individual would lose his seat and that is the party chairman. No other MP’s are members of the Puea Thai executive board.”
(see http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publications/Political-Party-Law/2007/Thailand-Political-Party-Law.aspx )
(see also The Nation from April: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/04/25/national/Thaksin-video-speech-may-have-broken-law-30153861.html )
* http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/246108//page-2/
Malaysia a vibrant democracy!
What we have is ‘guided-democracy’, democracy in outlook, but in reality, everything is dictated by the PM! The PM-of the day will determine what is allowed, and what’s not. One cannot even gather around in public unless it’s deemed appropriate by the ruling junta, who have no qualms to unleash the whole police force, with it’s canon trucks & teargas, on it’s people if they decide to gather anyway. The Police Chief thinks he serve the PM and his party, and not it’s People. The Election Commisisons does all it can to ensure that the ruling party wins. The Court rules in favour of the ruling party. Washington turns a blind eye on this as they’re afraid of the Islamic party from the opposition. Nobody from the western world condems the PM who still stands accused in the eyes of its people of being involved in the murder of a Mongolian woman who was blown up with C4, which can only be obtained by the military.
National lunacy
Rule of law means that all are subject to the same laws – including the ruler. Traditionally in China there was Rule by Law not Rule of Law. Law was seen as the means by which the ruler exercised control (over everyone else). As a result, law was not seen as something to be obeyed but rather something to get around – unlike Western law which has a moral base so people obey the law because it is the right thing to do. Unfortunately Thailand has a Rule by Law system. Despite having a Buddhist majority obeying the law does not seem to have a moral dimension. Hence its misuse
National lunacy
c27
“Funny enough I just read in the Post that the complaint about Yingluck’s cooking was made to the EC by Korat voter.”
Any and all complaints should warrant some kind of examination with the patently trivial/unfounded ditched at an early stage leaving any others to be investigated further and action taken if/as appropriate. In this instance, the complainant is said to have merely seen the YS cooking photo-op pic in a local newspaper (i.e. the complainant wasn’t even present to see if food was given out) and decided to send it to the EC for investigation – i.e. basically “on spec”.
For this story to grow from such tenuous beginnings suggests that its prominence is no accident.
“…by the comments on NM you would think the sky is falling.”
Given the frequency with which the sky has been made to fall – however improbably, that’s hardly surprising now, is it? Thrice bitten…..
National lunacy
Andrew Walker – 33
I shared the skepticism but considered the “poor can be bought” sentiment that has been ingrained into the elite mind , it is no surprise that someone would attempt to gain vote that way since all they believe is the poor only vote for PT because they pays well.
National lunacy
Bart: indeed, and where were they when the 1997 constitution was thrown out by an illegal coup? Or was that all part of the “good coup” and the establishment of the military’s rule of law?
National lunacy
Laws that are made to keep the people’s representatives out of power and to entrench the power of the monarchy are undemocratic and unjust. The King’s monumentally foolish policy of keeping the monarchy above the law is behind this trouble. All that a civilian or military law-breaker has to do is to shout loudly enough that he is on the King’s business and no court will dare to touch him. This is the source of the double standard: why the courts never dare to touch the King’s party, the Democrats, and find ridiculous excuses to thwart the others. It is why the Yellow shirts can get away with murder and their opponents are imprisoned and murdered.
The King won the battle he was persuaded to fight with the Constitutionalists many years ago. He established an opaque absolutist régime and continues to pose dishonestly as a Constitutional Monarch. The fact that he and his family are above the law is the core of absolutism. His intention may have been to avoid obstruction by quibbling lawyers of his efforts to do good, but he forgot Lord Acton’s famous dictum, “All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”. Now he has lived long enough to see the truth of it. Predictably, absolute power has been grossly abused by his unstable wife and son who are loathed and feared by the majority of the Thai people. He has lived long enough to witness, time and again, the majority’s desire to take the status of top patrons away from his own family and bestow it on another.
It can be argued that the story is one of a man who started out with good intentions, grasped the power that was offered to him, and found that neither he nor any human being could handle it without tragic consequences. More clearly, it is the story of a people whose tragic flaw is to willingly hand over too much power to one person or one family.
National lunacy
U. Chemp (16) writes:
I find this very implausible.
1. Why would a headman in a clearly “red” area risk his support, reputation and, according to your account, even his life to try to persuade people to vote “yellow” (especially when it was clear that the “reds” would win)?
1a. Why would the “yellows” waste their money in an area of such strong “red” support?
2. Given the inevitable factionalism in village politics (and the fact that he was going against the clear majority view) why would no-one report him?
3. Would anyone imagine that money distributed would be reimbursed, especially to a headman who is so clearly out of touch with his village’s electoral opinion?
4. Why would anyone think that people would change their vote for only 300 baht?
5. How many headmen have been murdered post-election? If this sort of thing is common, as some suggest, there must be many disappointed candidates out there. Can we expect a spate of retribution killings?
I understand that you cannot name the village, but perhaps you could provide the province and a bit more context to fill the story out a bit.
The Democrats in Bangkok
All of the reasons others have mentioned.
I wonder if anyone in their party actually rues the day when they became embroiled in PAD/yellow/establishment games. Things may be very different now if they had actually denoucned the coup (without opposing it with street demos) and had stayed well clear of the PAD. And of course that they didnt not only lost them votes but also left them so badly undermined as a party that they are almost unelectable to government. All they seem to be now are the party that those that dont like Thaksin or who are scared of the reds vote for. Short term it has boosted their numbers over the Chuan past, but it has also put a lid on where those numbers can go. The urge for short term power has actually left them in a position where the long term goal of winning an election is now almost certainly a lot further off than it was back in 2005
The army and the god king
When I first told the great story about Thai king including his real estate management company to an American. I was convinced that he was a great king. However my American friend told me that the king looked like a parasite to the country and his people. He pointed to me that he was so happy that he had no king to please in the United States.
I have been in the US for 25 years. I now agree with what he said.
National lunacy
To Vichai, LesAbbey, StanG and all the other born again “Rule of Law” apologists for the Thai “Democrat” Party, where were they when the “banned politicians” Newin and Barnham were so busy, so active, so involved, so “un-banned” in the sordid arrangements thru which Abhisit and the “Democrats” came into power?
(I still remember that classic and charming photo of Abhisit and Newin giving each other same Man Love when the deal was announced…)
And where were they when the “Democrat” Party and all its sarmy executives “escaped” being banned in the 258 million baht TPI illegal donation case which was ever so conveniently dropped due to a “procedural error” by the investigators/prosecutors.
It’s all so tedious and so “Double Standard” and in the end so boring……