Has anyone managed to download the Kindle-friendly version of these articles? Andrew tweeted about their availability but I can’t seem to get them downloaded.
Mariner #143: I completely agree, although I think the transition you envision will necessarily involve a longish period of more or less authoritarian rule by elected governments, i.e. Thaksin would have to be around for the foreseeable.
As far as the direction Thailand takes in the years ahead, I still say that the issue is not so much about who wins the election than how the red shirt movement transforms/evolves in the months/years ahead. There are plenty more chances for electoral victory whatever happens this time around. I’m looking long term.
Assuming the red shirts are here to stay -as they surely are- then, win or lose, will we see the movement slowly but surely marginalize Taksin and unite around policies, social themes and an agenda of equal opportunity for all, or will it remain as it is: a sort of popular one man cult.
It is perfectly possible to be a red shirt and anti Taksin at the same time. And that is the message I think more and more red shirts -a minority definitely- are trying to get across.
With the interests of Thailand at heart I would say that what the country needs is a red shirt win, a ditching of Taksin and identification of the movement with policies rather than a single deeply flawed personality. It would help, of course, if some young charismatic leader could step forth and take up the reigns. I have no idea who that could be. The leadership of the red shirts is a real put off.
Re snipers at Chula Hospital. Not long after 19 May 2010, I visited a office on one of the higher floors of the Abdul Rahim building. The security officer showed me how a round had come through every window all along the north side of the building on that floor. The rounds had come through sometime between 13 May, after the office had been closed for security reasons, and 19 May. I assumed that these rounds were fired by red-shirt supporters in the park, perhaps during the shooting directed toward the Dusit after Seh Deang was killed. Wrong.
Bullets holes in the walls in the interior of the office showed the trajectory of the rounds, which didn’t come from below. A corporate security expert from the US happened to be in the office that day; he didn’t follow Thai politics and hadn’t been in Bangkok during the Chula hospital “raid” controversy. He indicated that the rounds came from one of the Chula Hospital buildings. Moreover, the rounds were large caliber. It was also evident that the rounds had been carefully placed, one high up in each window along the length of the building, as if to discourage anyone who might be in the office from looking out the windows.
Thanks for the entertainment. And thanks Andrew Walker for letting his rants get through the firewall. These discussion threads can get dry at times.
Allow me as a US citizen to help clarify American foreign policy. Tony, I don’t have enough time and space to discuss your argument at length that the US government, behind $50k, is planning to take over Thailand. No entity in the world has invested more in the status quo in Thailand than the US government. We threw hundreds of millions of dollars building the Thai military, infrastructure, and promotion of the monarchy as a bulwark against Communism during the Cold War. We didn’t try to colonize Thailand like England and France. We forgave Thailand after WW II stopping the British from punishing them. Thais love the US for these reasons, and we love Thailand because it was a domino that didn’t fall in SE Asia. You must look at the relationship between the US and Thailand within the context of a long history. The last thing the US would want would be an unstable Thailand. The US government looks at Thailand as a developing democracy, far from perfect, but a hell of a lot better than many, many, other developing countries in the world.
You bang on about neocons, but what you don’t understand, and I just don’t know why, is that the main controversy about the neocons is the preponderance of Jewish neocons (Feith, Perle, Wolfowitz) and their involvement in the run up to the Iraq War with many criticizing them as pushing America into a war because of interests of Israel, not the United States. It isn’t only the Jewish neocons that have been a problem, we can throw in the Christian Zionists and corporate America, particularly big oil, into the mix creating quite a toxic foreign policy cocktail. Would it make sense that the US government would be working in countries like Libya and Syria to subvert radical Islam under the guise of democracy? Yes. Pressure from the Israel lobby, oil interests, and the threat of some nutcase Muslim radical sending a nuclear bomb all play a role in US foreign policy. The other major concerns are North Korea and the influence of China.
This is why your rants about $50k for Prachatai are so amusing. You just have no idea, no common sense, about American foreign policy. Thailand is the least of our concerns!
And BTW this NED is NOT the US government, but a private organization.
I visited your website and couldn’t find any biography showing your credentials. I think it would be a good idea to reveal them if you continue to speak about credibility.
Les: It may be futile concentrating on the Palace or the Parliament where selfish money interests dominate so look elsewhere to the sleeping power of workers and students as this brief interview suggests:
In the Thai context the progressive sections on the constitution which arose in the 1997 People’s Constution, thanks in part to “good man” Anand P, and survived the post coup rewrite lie like a sleeping dog waiting to bite a foolhardy Napoleon:
Arthurson is correct to identify the increase in the cost-of-living as a important livelihood issue but it is not simply a problem in Thailand but China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Lao PDR and indeed many other economies not simply in the region but globally. Hence to simply talk of greedy Sino-Chinese merchants is a populist cry that obscures the real issues because the reality all merchants or trading intermediaries irrespective of their ethnicity (and not all merchants in Thailand or especially Vietnam are Sino-Chinese although I admit most of them are at least in Thailand) will take advantage of demand and charge what they think the market can bear. Analysis based on economic realities rather than ethnicities is a more productive exercise.
I never seem to win anything in Thailand’s bi-monthly underground lotteries and perhaps I should not speculate on whether it will be Cambodia or Thailand who will decide where access to Preah Vihear will be had from give my persistent lack of winning such lotteries. In the past it was always easier from Thailand but more interesting from Cambodia but I suspect that in the end some form of compromise will be affected although right now Cambodia is clearly winning the propaganda war, including perhaps among some Thais. It must be hard for teachers of Thai-Cambodian history – if you can call such history actually history – to offer a cogent explanation to young Thais although my 12 year old daughter waxes and wanes on this topic: when I am around she is more “even-handed’ but in my absence well…………
A hundred million dollars plus to prosecute these people? So thats roughly 4 years worth of gate takings embezzled at Angkor! So let the foreigners pay. The international communty subsidises the prosecution of the opponents (scapegoats) of present despots. I see process gone mad, ordinary people forgotten, not remembered by this. When do the Cambodian people see something tangible for the millions spent/abused on their behalf?
@CT (17)
” This is an issue of coercion and undue influence”
LOL
I would have named “gunboats on the Chao Phraya” something else but “undue influence” sounds good enough !
If the Siamese had de facto accepted the border, even in its “details” on the map (that was unilaterally established, there is even no copy of it in the Thai government libraries), then why did the then Thailand reoccupy a large part of what was Cambodia in 1940 ?
To me it shows that the “demarcation” was NOT accepted !
But, having border demarcations between Thailand and Cambodia judged in The Netherlands (other former colonial power) is very revealing …
Thais and Cambodians share the same culture, and that culture is not even understood in the Netherlands !
@Seh Fah
“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”
I am very sorry, but I cannot accept that !
What form of “oppression” is having buddhist monks walking silently the streets early morning ?
What form of “oppression” is having children (including GIRLS) being educated in schools ?
What form of “oppression” is having markets opened on fridays, alcohol and pork on sale and so on and on and on ?
It is the fundamentalists who oppress the people there, and they want to control all of them, killing all those (muslims or not) who are not obedient.
Malaysia does not want them, and they want to establish an islamist state where nothing but islamic views is tolerated (for memory, in Malaysia there are 40% CHINESE that can eat pork, drink alcohol if they wish, and whose girls can go to schools and even walk the streets without a vail !)
@Kate, I am not sure whether you are going to reply or not, but I am replying anyway just to comment on these err….assertions which you make.
You said:
“And trust me I know who burnt it because my uncle knows some of them personally. (for those who’s looking to ban this post, I don’t even say any name.)
-I have heard this kind of argument million times. Well, if your uncle knows people who burn CTW, what is stopping him to tell the elites about it, being that the media/elites/army etc, you name it, are so against the Red shirts anyway. Why don’t he tell the elites who did it and show them the evidence? Nobody is going to chop his head off or fire him if he could prove that the Reds burned CTW, trust me. Instead, he would be hailed as a hero. Well, if he wants to become a hero, tell him to take his chance.
Don’t just say “my uncle knows the secret” and stop at that. I have heard this kind of argument all the time from the yellows who claim that “King Rama 8 is still not dead. He is now a monk in Northern Thailand, and I know this because my relative has heard about this from the Palace”. But when I ask them to be specific, tell me which temple he lives, which province that temple is located, and ask them why no one has ever seen him even when we all know what he looks like, they just can’t answer. And until you can really prove what you have said in specific detail, no one can really take your word seriously.
-“I think it should be enough for the kind of attitude “you are a Thai living in Thailand so you don’t know anything, you are a victim of government medias, you are parroting them blah blah”
Kate, do you know how many websites are blocked by Thai authorities? More than 100,000, and new ones are being blocked every day. How many books the Thai government ban? Have you read those websites and read those books? Read them first and then tell me that you already know all of those stuffs (only the stuffs which can be proven is enough, such as Royals’ complicity in the massacre on 6 Oct 1976 or the Royals’ complicity in the current political crisis), then I will believe you that we know no more than you know.
-“You farangs studying about Thailand, Thai people, Thai politics will never reach a profound knowledge of Thai values with that kind of attitude.”
And can you explain with reasons, logic, theory, principles, that why farang will never understand Thai values? Farangs understand Thais very well why Thai people think the way they think. But have you ever asked yourself who made you think the way you think, and why those people want to make you think the way you think? I can immediately tell you in three sentences what most Thai people think.
1) Thais love their King.
2) Thais think all politicians are corrupted, thus they should not be trusted.
3) Thais better rely on their King, because he has done so much for the Thai people.
And if you think farangs don’t know that this is the way Thais think, I will tell you right now that you are wrong. They KNOW that this is the way Thais think. And they also know WHO put these kind of thoughts into Thai people’s head, and they know WHY these people want Thais to think this way. Have you, however, ever asked yourself who taught you to think this way, and what is their purpose? Have you ever asked yourself, when you are out walking in Bangkok streets, about who put the pictures of the King doing good things all over the country? Ask yourself this question and try to find out an answer, then come up with a good argument to rebut what most farangs believe (I won’t tell you what those arguments are; go and read them yourself), then your comment would carry more weight.
-Farangs are no better than Thais, don’t look to apply your standard to Thai people because it won’t fit.
What standard? The standard that a coup can occuer to oust a democractically elected PM any time? Of course it will never fit. Any King or Queen in a western world who endorses the coup, will be ousted by their people from their country immediately. That’s a no-no in a western society. So why this is accepted in Thailand? Give me a good reason why many people in Thailand accept this, will you?
-And please please don’t think because you associate with some red extremist Thais, you know Thailand better than any other Thai people who think differently.
Please provide me an evidence that I have ‘association’ with some red extremists, will you? You don’t even know who I am, where I live, what I do for a living. And yet you accuse me of being an accomplice with some red extremist. This is an example of the way you view things. You make assumptions, and you immediately accuse others. This is the example of unconstructiveness on your part. I do not know why your other comments are not posted, but read them back, they might contain this kind of thing (please note I use the word “might”, because I am not sure, as I have not read those posts. See? I did not allege you when I don’t know for sure whether you have done something or not.)
-The only way Farangs can get to know true Thailand is to eliminate your arrogance and to be open to input from all Thais.
I could say the same thing to you, that the only way you can get to know why Farangs think the way they think, is to eliminate your bias (I won’t use the word “arrogance”, as that is too strong a word, and it suggests unreasonableness.) First of all, try to find out the answers to the questions I have asked. Be brave and read the materials which the Thai authorities block. You may be surprised and shocked with how Thailand current is. I certainly was 😉
The most excellent book “The Ambiguous Allure of the West” – reviewed on New Mandala – refers (p166) to Thai historian Nidi Aeosrivongse’s concept of wathakam, .
“Nidhi argues that society needs to have an explanation as to why certain groups deserve what they acquire, and that this kind of social justification is wathakam or ‘discourse’. Nidhi describes wathakam as ‘a most complex network of facts that society recognizes as fact…It is the state of knowledge of society. Wathakam is a construction.’
According to Nidhi, wathakam is a relation in the distribution of power and he argues that the old Thai Maoist view that power structures in Thailand have been maintained by means of physical violence is too simplistic.
For Nidhi, the power structure of the Thai ruling elite has also required a means of organizing ‘facts’ and thought in a sophisticated way, and the institutionalization of this is wathakam whose power lies in its rationalized justification of the power structure.”
Kate 18
Is there a chance you could post more information and details from your Uncle?
New Mandala readers and the rest of the world would love to get more detail on who was involved in the burning and I can guarantee your post would score a lot of hits. Not least from ISOC and MICT
Unless your uncle works for them too?
“My father was in the secret police. He was a very funny guy, very generous. He was always bringing us gifts home from work. A comb, a wallet, a pair of shoes…”
Andrew I understand much of what you are saying and even agree with some of it, but my disagreement with both you and others is that you give Thailand a binary choice of the bad old elite with the monarchy or a bright new future with the election of a pro-Thaksin government. Now is that the only choice? As you say yourself in the FP article:
Thaksin won overwhelming electoral mandates in 2001 and 2005, and he imposed his authoritarian “CEO style of management” on the country. He was deeply corrupt and had little time for democracy…
Thaksin has already taken a position over the succession issue, although I suspect quite a few of his supporters in Isaan don’t realize what that is. So how much choice is in offer? The old elite or new elite seems to be it.
Yet maybe that’s not all that’s there. I suspect that nobody would claim Abhisit, Chuan or even Apirak are awe-inspiring figures. They certainly don’t seem to have the strength, self-confidence or certainty that people like Thaksin have.
Yet one has to struggle to call them evil or corrupt and they seem to muddle through. Maybe we can also throw in those good men who are regarded as having a more altruistic outlook like Anand and Meechai (the population control one).
So maybe the answer isn’t just a choice of this evil or that evil. I hate to sound like Tony Blair, but maybe in this case there actually is a third way. The great thing about the cables is that they remind us of the evils in the other two ways.
Not sure if you’re aware but there was a brief interruption with Twitter courtesy of the MICT around an hour or two ago.
[For an example check the twit feeds for @freakingcat, @supinya, and others]
Things seem to be back to normal (apparently a “technical glitch”), but I’m wondering if this is some sort of rehersal for the supposed social media/political clampdown from 6pm tomorrow onwards til the end of polling? After all, Thaksin banned entry and exit polls when he was PM, if anyone remembers?
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
2011 Thai election coverage
Just remember that political blogging/social media and similar crimes against humanity are BANNED from 6pm tonight 🙂
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Has anyone managed to download the Kindle-friendly version of these articles? Andrew tweeted about their availability but I can’t seem to get them downloaded.
Mariner #143: I completely agree, although I think the transition you envision will necessarily involve a longish period of more or less authoritarian rule by elected governments, i.e. Thaksin would have to be around for the foreseeable.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
As far as the direction Thailand takes in the years ahead, I still say that the issue is not so much about who wins the election than how the red shirt movement transforms/evolves in the months/years ahead. There are plenty more chances for electoral victory whatever happens this time around. I’m looking long term.
Assuming the red shirts are here to stay -as they surely are- then, win or lose, will we see the movement slowly but surely marginalize Taksin and unite around policies, social themes and an agenda of equal opportunity for all, or will it remain as it is: a sort of popular one man cult.
It is perfectly possible to be a red shirt and anti Taksin at the same time. And that is the message I think more and more red shirts -a minority definitely- are trying to get across.
With the interests of Thailand at heart I would say that what the country needs is a red shirt win, a ditching of Taksin and identification of the movement with policies rather than a single deeply flawed personality. It would help, of course, if some young charismatic leader could step forth and take up the reigns. I have no idea who that could be. The leadership of the red shirts is a real put off.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Nganadeeleg #122
Re snipers at Chula Hospital. Not long after 19 May 2010, I visited a office on one of the higher floors of the Abdul Rahim building. The security officer showed me how a round had come through every window all along the north side of the building on that floor. The rounds had come through sometime between 13 May, after the office had been closed for security reasons, and 19 May. I assumed that these rounds were fired by red-shirt supporters in the park, perhaps during the shooting directed toward the Dusit after Seh Deang was killed. Wrong.
Bullets holes in the walls in the interior of the office showed the trajectory of the rounds, which didn’t come from below. A corporate security expert from the US happened to be in the office that day; he didn’t follow Thai politics and hadn’t been in Bangkok during the Chula hospital “raid” controversy. He indicated that the rounds came from one of the Chula Hospital buildings. Moreover, the rounds were large caliber. It was also evident that the rounds had been carefully placed, one high up in each window along the length of the building, as if to discourage anyone who might be in the office from looking out the windows.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Tony,
Thanks for the entertainment. And thanks Andrew Walker for letting his rants get through the firewall. These discussion threads can get dry at times.
Allow me as a US citizen to help clarify American foreign policy. Tony, I don’t have enough time and space to discuss your argument at length that the US government, behind $50k, is planning to take over Thailand. No entity in the world has invested more in the status quo in Thailand than the US government. We threw hundreds of millions of dollars building the Thai military, infrastructure, and promotion of the monarchy as a bulwark against Communism during the Cold War. We didn’t try to colonize Thailand like England and France. We forgave Thailand after WW II stopping the British from punishing them. Thais love the US for these reasons, and we love Thailand because it was a domino that didn’t fall in SE Asia. You must look at the relationship between the US and Thailand within the context of a long history. The last thing the US would want would be an unstable Thailand. The US government looks at Thailand as a developing democracy, far from perfect, but a hell of a lot better than many, many, other developing countries in the world.
You bang on about neocons, but what you don’t understand, and I just don’t know why, is that the main controversy about the neocons is the preponderance of Jewish neocons (Feith, Perle, Wolfowitz) and their involvement in the run up to the Iraq War with many criticizing them as pushing America into a war because of interests of Israel, not the United States. It isn’t only the Jewish neocons that have been a problem, we can throw in the Christian Zionists and corporate America, particularly big oil, into the mix creating quite a toxic foreign policy cocktail. Would it make sense that the US government would be working in countries like Libya and Syria to subvert radical Islam under the guise of democracy? Yes. Pressure from the Israel lobby, oil interests, and the threat of some nutcase Muslim radical sending a nuclear bomb all play a role in US foreign policy. The other major concerns are North Korea and the influence of China.
This is why your rants about $50k for Prachatai are so amusing. You just have no idea, no common sense, about American foreign policy. Thailand is the least of our concerns!
And BTW this NED is NOT the US government, but a private organization.
I visited your website and couldn’t find any biography showing your credentials. I think it would be a good idea to reveal them if you continue to speak about credibility.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Nganadeeleg – 139
Just one suggestion. Read the cables. Andrew Marshall has placed them at the link below.
http://thaicables.wordpress.com/
I can still access them on TOT so hopefully they are not blocked.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Les: Those names you listed are all part of the ‘bad old elite’ and we already know what it’s like with them in control.
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Les: It may be futile concentrating on the Palace or the Parliament where selfish money interests dominate so look elsewhere to the sleeping power of workers and students as this brief interview suggests:
http://ourchiangmai.com/blog/2011/06/29/noam-chomsky-the-optimist/
In the Thai context the progressive sections on the constitution which arose in the 1997 People’s Constution, thanks in part to “good man” Anand P, and survived the post coup rewrite lie like a sleeping dog waiting to bite a foolhardy Napoleon:
http://ourchiangmai.com/blog/2011/02/22/%E0%B8%AA%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%98%E0%B8%B4%E0%B9%83%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%82%E0%B9%89%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%B9%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%82%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%AA%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A3%E0%B9%81%E0%B8%A5/
Walker and Thitinan on the Thai election
Arthurson is correct to identify the increase in the cost-of-living as a important livelihood issue but it is not simply a problem in Thailand but China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Lao PDR and indeed many other economies not simply in the region but globally. Hence to simply talk of greedy Sino-Chinese merchants is a populist cry that obscures the real issues because the reality all merchants or trading intermediaries irrespective of their ethnicity (and not all merchants in Thailand or especially Vietnam are Sino-Chinese although I admit most of them are at least in Thailand) will take advantage of demand and charge what they think the market can bear. Analysis based on economic realities rather than ethnicities is a more productive exercise.
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
I never seem to win anything in Thailand’s bi-monthly underground lotteries and perhaps I should not speculate on whether it will be Cambodia or Thailand who will decide where access to Preah Vihear will be had from give my persistent lack of winning such lotteries. In the past it was always easier from Thailand but more interesting from Cambodia but I suspect that in the end some form of compromise will be affected although right now Cambodia is clearly winning the propaganda war, including perhaps among some Thais. It must be hard for teachers of Thai-Cambodian history – if you can call such history actually history – to offer a cogent explanation to young Thais although my 12 year old daughter waxes and wanes on this topic: when I am around she is more “even-handed’ but in my absence well…………
A cathartic moment for all Cambodians
A hundred million dollars plus to prosecute these people? So thats roughly 4 years worth of gate takings embezzled at Angkor! So let the foreigners pay. The international communty subsidises the prosecution of the opponents (scapegoats) of present despots. I see process gone mad, ordinary people forgotten, not remembered by this. When do the Cambodian people see something tangible for the millions spent/abused on their behalf?
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
@CT (17)
” This is an issue of coercion and undue influence”
LOL
I would have named “gunboats on the Chao Phraya” something else but “undue influence” sounds good enough !
If the Siamese had de facto accepted the border, even in its “details” on the map (that was unilaterally established, there is even no copy of it in the Thai government libraries), then why did the then Thailand reoccupy a large part of what was Cambodia in 1940 ?
To me it shows that the “demarcation” was NOT accepted !
But, having border demarcations between Thailand and Cambodia judged in The Netherlands (other former colonial power) is very revealing …
Thais and Cambodians share the same culture, and that culture is not even understood in the Netherlands !
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
@Seh Fah
“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”
I am very sorry, but I cannot accept that !
What form of “oppression” is having buddhist monks walking silently the streets early morning ?
What form of “oppression” is having children (including GIRLS) being educated in schools ?
What form of “oppression” is having markets opened on fridays, alcohol and pork on sale and so on and on and on ?
It is the fundamentalists who oppress the people there, and they want to control all of them, killing all those (muslims or not) who are not obedient.
Malaysia does not want them, and they want to establish an islamist state where nothing but islamic views is tolerated (for memory, in Malaysia there are 40% CHINESE that can eat pork, drink alcohol if they wish, and whose girls can go to schools and even walk the streets without a vail !)
Election advice
@Kate, I am not sure whether you are going to reply or not, but I am replying anyway just to comment on these err….assertions which you make.
You said:
“And trust me I know who burnt it because my uncle knows some of them personally. (for those who’s looking to ban this post, I don’t even say any name.)
-I have heard this kind of argument million times. Well, if your uncle knows people who burn CTW, what is stopping him to tell the elites about it, being that the media/elites/army etc, you name it, are so against the Red shirts anyway. Why don’t he tell the elites who did it and show them the evidence? Nobody is going to chop his head off or fire him if he could prove that the Reds burned CTW, trust me. Instead, he would be hailed as a hero. Well, if he wants to become a hero, tell him to take his chance.
Don’t just say “my uncle knows the secret” and stop at that. I have heard this kind of argument all the time from the yellows who claim that “King Rama 8 is still not dead. He is now a monk in Northern Thailand, and I know this because my relative has heard about this from the Palace”. But when I ask them to be specific, tell me which temple he lives, which province that temple is located, and ask them why no one has ever seen him even when we all know what he looks like, they just can’t answer. And until you can really prove what you have said in specific detail, no one can really take your word seriously.
-“I think it should be enough for the kind of attitude “you are a Thai living in Thailand so you don’t know anything, you are a victim of government medias, you are parroting them blah blah”
Kate, do you know how many websites are blocked by Thai authorities? More than 100,000, and new ones are being blocked every day. How many books the Thai government ban? Have you read those websites and read those books? Read them first and then tell me that you already know all of those stuffs (only the stuffs which can be proven is enough, such as Royals’ complicity in the massacre on 6 Oct 1976 or the Royals’ complicity in the current political crisis), then I will believe you that we know no more than you know.
-“You farangs studying about Thailand, Thai people, Thai politics will never reach a profound knowledge of Thai values with that kind of attitude.”
And can you explain with reasons, logic, theory, principles, that why farang will never understand Thai values? Farangs understand Thais very well why Thai people think the way they think. But have you ever asked yourself who made you think the way you think, and why those people want to make you think the way you think? I can immediately tell you in three sentences what most Thai people think.
1) Thais love their King.
2) Thais think all politicians are corrupted, thus they should not be trusted.
3) Thais better rely on their King, because he has done so much for the Thai people.
And if you think farangs don’t know that this is the way Thais think, I will tell you right now that you are wrong. They KNOW that this is the way Thais think. And they also know WHO put these kind of thoughts into Thai people’s head, and they know WHY these people want Thais to think this way. Have you, however, ever asked yourself who taught you to think this way, and what is their purpose? Have you ever asked yourself, when you are out walking in Bangkok streets, about who put the pictures of the King doing good things all over the country? Ask yourself this question and try to find out an answer, then come up with a good argument to rebut what most farangs believe (I won’t tell you what those arguments are; go and read them yourself), then your comment would carry more weight.
-Farangs are no better than Thais, don’t look to apply your standard to Thai people because it won’t fit.
What standard? The standard that a coup can occuer to oust a democractically elected PM any time? Of course it will never fit. Any King or Queen in a western world who endorses the coup, will be ousted by their people from their country immediately. That’s a no-no in a western society. So why this is accepted in Thailand? Give me a good reason why many people in Thailand accept this, will you?
-And please please don’t think because you associate with some red extremist Thais, you know Thailand better than any other Thai people who think differently.
Please provide me an evidence that I have ‘association’ with some red extremists, will you? You don’t even know who I am, where I live, what I do for a living. And yet you accuse me of being an accomplice with some red extremist. This is an example of the way you view things. You make assumptions, and you immediately accuse others. This is the example of unconstructiveness on your part. I do not know why your other comments are not posted, but read them back, they might contain this kind of thing (please note I use the word “might”, because I am not sure, as I have not read those posts. See? I did not allege you when I don’t know for sure whether you have done something or not.)
-The only way Farangs can get to know true Thailand is to eliminate your arrogance and to be open to input from all Thais.
I could say the same thing to you, that the only way you can get to know why Farangs think the way they think, is to eliminate your bias (I won’t use the word “arrogance”, as that is too strong a word, and it suggests unreasonableness.) First of all, try to find out the answers to the questions I have asked. Be brave and read the materials which the Thai authorities block. You may be surprised and shocked with how Thailand current is. I certainly was 😉
Intelligence operations against the Red Shirts
The most excellent book “The Ambiguous Allure of the West” – reviewed on New Mandala – refers (p166) to Thai historian Nidi Aeosrivongse’s concept of wathakam, .
“Nidhi argues that society needs to have an explanation as to why certain groups deserve what they acquire, and that this kind of social justification is wathakam or ‘discourse’. Nidhi describes wathakam as ‘a most complex network of facts that society recognizes as fact…It is the state of knowledge of society. Wathakam is a construction.’
According to Nidhi, wathakam is a relation in the distribution of power and he argues that the old Thai Maoist view that power structures in Thailand have been maintained by means of physical violence is too simplistic.
For Nidhi, the power structure of the Thai ruling elite has also required a means of organizing ‘facts’ and thought in a sophisticated way, and the institutionalization of this is wathakam whose power lies in its rationalized justification of the power structure.”
Election advice
Kate 18
Is there a chance you could post more information and details from your Uncle?
New Mandala readers and the rest of the world would love to get more detail on who was involved in the burning and I can guarantee your post would score a lot of hits. Not least from ISOC and MICT
Unless your uncle works for them too?
“My father was in the secret police. He was a very funny guy, very generous. He was always bringing us gifts home from work. A comb, a wallet, a pair of shoes…”
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Good lord! I quite forgot about this string amid all the kerfuffle about the military cou…I mean the election. Can we start again?
Andrew Marshall’s Thai Story
Andrew Marshall – 130
Andrew I understand much of what you are saying and even agree with some of it, but my disagreement with both you and others is that you give Thailand a binary choice of the bad old elite with the monarchy or a bright new future with the election of a pro-Thaksin government. Now is that the only choice? As you say yourself in the FP article:
Thaksin won overwhelming electoral mandates in 2001 and 2005, and he imposed his authoritarian “CEO style of management” on the country. He was deeply corrupt and had little time for democracy…
Thaksin has already taken a position over the succession issue, although I suspect quite a few of his supporters in Isaan don’t realize what that is. So how much choice is in offer? The old elite or new elite seems to be it.
Yet maybe that’s not all that’s there. I suspect that nobody would claim Abhisit, Chuan or even Apirak are awe-inspiring figures. They certainly don’t seem to have the strength, self-confidence or certainty that people like Thaksin have.
Yet one has to struggle to call them evil or corrupt and they seem to muddle through. Maybe we can also throw in those good men who are regarded as having a more altruistic outlook like Anand and Meechai (the population control one).
So maybe the answer isn’t just a choice of this evil or that evil. I hate to sound like Tony Blair, but maybe in this case there actually is a third way. The great thing about the cables is that they remind us of the evils in the other two ways.
Can the Democrats make it six in a row?
@Seh Fah
Here is the entire 1962 Ruling. You decide if it is dubious:
http://khnews.net/pdf/judgment15june1962_Eng.pdf
2011 Thai election coverage
Not sure if you’re aware but there was a brief interruption with Twitter courtesy of the MICT around an hour or two ago.
[For an example check the twit feeds for @freakingcat, @supinya, and others]
Things seem to be back to normal (apparently a “technical glitch”), but I’m wondering if this is some sort of rehersal for the supposed social media/political clampdown from 6pm tomorrow onwards til the end of polling? After all, Thaksin banned entry and exit polls when he was PM, if anyone remembers?