Back to the invisible hand… I think it’s part of the con. The mob… that’d be the amaat, the military, and the plutocrats… are the very visible hands of the oppressive oligarchy. Their strategy is to foist off the belief that what they do in plain sight is actually the work of he or she or it which cannot be criticized… voila… the end of criticism.
It works because all of the Thai MSM are part of the con.
There is no invisible hand. Watch see, watcha see is whatcha get.
Suspension of construction of the Myitsome Dam,pending an environmental impact study, should be part of a ceasefire agreement.
Than Shwe thinks cheating and lying is a clever negotiating tactic and has never entered into good faith negotiations with either ASSK/NLD or the ethnic resistance armies during the past twenty years. Therefore a cease-fire is not possible until Than Shwe is removed.
The Minister/Counselor and Acting Burmese Ambassador to US who defected has disclosed the arrest of sixty Thai fishermen when he was a senior military intelligence officer. Than Shwe personally ordered them killed. Several military intelligence officers who fled to Thailand when Khin Nyunt was toppled has disclosed of Than Shwe’s direct order to assassinate ASSK during the May 30th Massacre. And the Burma Army is now badly divided because of Than Shwe’s direct order to mass murder Buddhist Monks during the 2007 National Uprising.
The Kachins are reluctant to negotiate because Than Shwe murdered one of their diplomats stationed at their liaison office. Any ceasefire agreement will require third party Super-Power guarantee.
I actually had the discussion with a fellow economist who had the same views as you. Here is what I told him and this is based entirely on economic arguments (not human rights):
(1) As long as there are unstable countries (Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, etc) there will always be incentives for its citizens to leave that country. As noted human life is priceless – and these people will pay whatever it takes and take disproportionate risks rather than facing certainty of death in their home countries.
Hence, boat people will always be there unless you resolve the problem at its source.
The idea that they will be in detention – whether in Malaysia or Australia – is not a deterrent.
So, your point that no one will make the journey to Australia is wrong.
(2) The trade off – for every 1 sent to Malaysia, 5 will be accepted in Australia.
What is the price that Australia is paying. Is this good economics?
Would it not be more cost-effective to have a system where all boat people are processed in Australia – and while waiting – are allowed into the community?
Also, what are the numbers that make it to Australia? Is it really such a big problem.
I think the problem with refugees is a perception problem i.e. the perception of some Australians about them. Its not really an economic issue. Its something else. Unless the government manages the perception of some Australians about refugees, it will not be resolved.
Hi Huw, you suggest that both can be met – and I’m with you on that. But what perplexes me, and hence the key reason for this posting: Why is the Malaysia solution still on, in comparison to the speed in which the government made the decision to ban live cattle exports?
Hence, my request to Australians are:
(1) If you do value human life more than animal rights – please take action to stop the Malaysia solution;
(2) If you value human life as much as you do animal rights – please take action to stop the Malaysia solution in the similar manner you stopped the Australian government from exporting live cattle;
@ Stuart # 5
Agreed that my proposition is species centric. However being species centric does not lead to abuse of the environment and its constituents. That’s an outcome of greed.
The Nation certainly used to be the most vocal anti-Taksin.Red/PT publication. I remember, in the days before I was banned from Thai Visa for 30 years for daring to mention rampant gay pedophilia in Chiang Mai, I was an avid reader and was dumbfounded by the blatant bias. In fact Thai Visa even in the days before only allowing Nation tirades had a moderator with a PAD avatar attacking any dissent.
So I am very surprised at that Nation article, BP was also biased but less so. Suspect other posters suggestion of covering their arse is correct. Most have discerned what the hidden hand is, yet even here I would prefer not to say more for fear of being tracked down and jailed.
So far to say, as previously expressed, I can’t see a PT government being allowed to exist even if they did manage a landslide. If Taksin really wants back I would expect a Night of the Long Knives operation to ensure his party longevity.
If anything, it seems to be Bangkok Post that has moved into “poll” position (excuse the pun) – conspicuously set on fighting PT to the bitter end…. whereas The Nation really seems to have seen the writing on the wall. Not excluding the possibility that both have sufficient “ins” with the shadow players to know that the general election is far from being the end of the “who governs next?” story.
In any case, the fact that each title sports the occasional Pravit/Suranand fig-leaf shouldn’t distract from what’s going on in the rest of these publications the rest of the time.
c38 “Quite interesting here in this context is why there was very little public investigations into who financed the PAD in 2006 and 2008…”
And now. Can it really be just collecting-box donations from the dwindling “crowdlet” of supporters that finances the ongoing if under-populated presence at Rachadaemnon? Or finances the truly massive “Vote No” poster campaign – a prize example of which can be seen here: http://twitpic.com/5c8jc4 ?
your posts on Malaysian politics keep us well-informed on the latest developments, and I sympathise with your sentiment regarding the “Malaysia solution”, however it does you no credit to fall back on the time old argument against animal rights: that respecting them is akin to treating animals as more important than humans.
Surely we can avoid torturing animals unnecessarily in Indonesia AND protect human rights in Malaysia. I don’t see how the two are mutually exclusive!
“I reluctantly voted it “thumbs down” because the first and last paragraphs do contain what I regard as unwarranted ad hominem attacks on Nick Nostitz’s reportings”
Read Nick’s reports from before the April/May Bangkok rallies, then go to Youtube and see the video clips of the speeches that were being given at those rallies. Not much objectivity at that point or at least some very selective reporting.
I do think Nick learned something reporting on the riots, though he is struggling with how to deal with it and reconcile that with the peaceful demonstration he thought it was going to be.
In the areas outside Khao Chakan, the UDD got maybe two people to climb up on the truck and give up their ID cards. Most people did not pay them much attention. This was because the Kamnan was not on the truck and was not supporting the effort. Nor were the attempts by the UDD to setup a community radio station allowed.
Not sure I ever seen Sanoh say anything about the UDD. I think his hope was that the shootings would force the Abhisit government to resign (as has happened every other time such incidents occurred) and he would be the ideal candidate for a caretaker PM. I have little doubt he knew what the radicals were up to and saw right through the strategy so he stayed out it.
My guess is he is going to get a serious Cabinet position, likely, the Interior. Of course, Thaksin may screw him again, just like he did after the 2005 election.
“The Nation has seen the polls. It is turning its coat, like the Vicar of Bray, getting ready to grovel to the new government.”
I don’t think so — they were pretty anti-Thaksin before the coup.
The more I read the Nation, with its bizarre mix of Thanongs and Pravits, the more I think it’s less of an ideology with them and more of just a half-assed sloppiness that guides their editorial line.
It’s really just a lazy, crappy newspaper, where anyone can get a job, do very little, and rise to their level of comfortable incompetence. (Full disclosure, I worked there once). The yellow tinge of recent years is probably just the easiest way to fake journalism, so they go that way.
If they had any kind of genuine unified editorial view, or leadership, or plan, then they wouldn’t have even published Pravit or Chang Noi all these years.
I reported that before the violence the protesters had a good time – because they simply had. During their tours through Bangkok they had a great reception. Anything else would be biased misreporting – which we have seen more than enough of in the Bangkok Post and in the Nation (apart from a minority of journalists that try to keep their professional ethics up).
I have also mentioned in my reporting the M79 grenades, and i have published photos of those, such as in my story on Saturday Red, Sunday Yellow. Nevertheless – i will not without one bit of supporting evidence blame the UDD leadership for those attacks, as many like to do. That would be libelous, and according to my investigations, a wrong accusation.
There were many hundreds if not thousands of speeches on stages. I can’t sit for 24 hours and record every speech. The vast majority of speeches were about injustice, many of course on Thaksin, and whatever not. Virulent Red Shirt opponents concentrate on two single speeches (out of all the speeches) – one by Nattawut, which, if you look at the video, has been edited (only part of the speech was shown, and i reserve my judgement there until i see the whole speech), and one by Arisaman (and in my book there will be some criticism of him regarding particular incidents, especially the parliament invasion).
As to NGOs – you are entitled to your views. As a journalist i often had to work with NGOs – and my experiences are a mixed bunch, and i am more than careful with anything that comes from NGOs. To much wrong information, to many selfserving agendas, too many attempts to instrumentalize me. Not saying that all are like this. But far too many.
As to your experiences on Sakeo. Give me evidence other than anecdotal “personal experience” by an anonymous bloke on the internet, without corroboration, and i will consider.
I do not doubt that there are quite a few not so nice people allied with the UDD (i am not naive) – but the accusations of protesters being “paid” has often neglected that protesters themselves have donated to the funds. Starting from village rallies were Red Shirts donated small amounts in donation boxes (i have many photos of that), up to rich businessmen donating substantial funds. Face it – no protest movement can function without money.
Quite interesting here in this context is why there was very little public investigations into who financed the PAD in 2006 and 2008…
Sanoh is a godfather. He was allied with Thaksin. The first time i photographed him was at the PAD stage in 2006, and recently i photographed him in Udon during a P.T. election campaign. Who knows which color he will don tomorrow, most likely the winning color.
If you hope that a ex-brothel owner in whose brothels “allegedly” some very underaged girls were available, and who hired one of the most brutal mafia figures to organize the raid on Sukhumvit square, then i can’t help you.
Whatever happens if and when the P.T. is in government we will see. Personally, i am mostly interested in street politics. If there are no street politics – i will not bother.
Thai friend returned from holiday to France. She said she hated it and loves Thailand. Why? “So much problems because everything must be according to law”.
I considered Pravit to be the small beacon of hope for Thailand news industry. I’m hoping that many others will join him and expose to invisible hand. On a side note, I heard that they will step up the crack down on LM, many of my associates have been giving me warning about writing on the web, its certainly becoming more and more scary.
Happy birthday New Mandala. Keep up the good work. Without you, we expats here would have brainwashed and turned into defenders of the despotic regime by The Nation and thaivisa.com.
Bkk Post has changed its tune lately as it has seen where the new wind is blowing.
“Would Australians agree that human lives are more important than Australian cattle?”
No, I don’t. That’s a species-centric point of view that in generations to come will be judged as a barbarous and ignorant perception of our place in the universe.
The misperception that our species sits at the centre of the universe goes hand in hand with the equally barbarous and ignorant view that god created us in his own image. I’ll add laughable to that.
John Smith’s #36 posting does have some good points about Chuvit and the NGOs, and I would be interested in more elaboration about the extent of UDD payoffs in Sa Kaeo, but I reluctantly voted it “thumbs down” because the first and last paragraphs do contain what I regard as unwarranted ad hominem attacks on Nick Nostitz’s reportings. I want to second the motion stated elsewhere on New Mandala that Nick’s photojournalism is first rate, and he does a better job than most at maintaining objectivity in a very volatile environment. Because the MSM in Thailand are such cowards, it is a demonstrated fact that without his efforts we would be even more in the dark than we are about the politics of the PAD and the UDD. And don’t forget, he came very close to getting killed in Bangkok last year for simply doing his job.
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Thailand’s invisible hand
Back to the invisible hand… I think it’s part of the con. The mob… that’d be the amaat, the military, and the plutocrats… are the very visible hands of the oppressive oligarchy. Their strategy is to foist off the belief that what they do in plain sight is actually the work of he or she or it which cannot be criticized… voila… the end of criticism.
It works because all of the Thai MSM are part of the con.
There is no invisible hand. Watch see, watcha see is whatcha get.
War in Kachin State
Suspension of construction of the Myitsome Dam,pending an environmental impact study, should be part of a ceasefire agreement.
Than Shwe thinks cheating and lying is a clever negotiating tactic and has never entered into good faith negotiations with either ASSK/NLD or the ethnic resistance armies during the past twenty years. Therefore a cease-fire is not possible until Than Shwe is removed.
The Minister/Counselor and Acting Burmese Ambassador to US who defected has disclosed the arrest of sixty Thai fishermen when he was a senior military intelligence officer. Than Shwe personally ordered them killed. Several military intelligence officers who fled to Thailand when Khin Nyunt was toppled has disclosed of Than Shwe’s direct order to assassinate ASSK during the May 30th Massacre. And the Burma Army is now badly divided because of Than Shwe’s direct order to mass murder Buddhist Monks during the 2007 National Uprising.
The Kachins are reluctant to negotiate because Than Shwe murdered one of their diplomats stationed at their liaison office. Any ceasefire agreement will require third party Super-Power guarantee.
Australians, cattles, refugees and Four Corners
@ Naiharn # 4
I actually had the discussion with a fellow economist who had the same views as you. Here is what I told him and this is based entirely on economic arguments (not human rights):
(1) As long as there are unstable countries (Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, etc) there will always be incentives for its citizens to leave that country. As noted human life is priceless – and these people will pay whatever it takes and take disproportionate risks rather than facing certainty of death in their home countries.
Hence, boat people will always be there unless you resolve the problem at its source.
The idea that they will be in detention – whether in Malaysia or Australia – is not a deterrent.
So, your point that no one will make the journey to Australia is wrong.
(2) The trade off – for every 1 sent to Malaysia, 5 will be accepted in Australia.
What is the price that Australia is paying. Is this good economics?
Would it not be more cost-effective to have a system where all boat people are processed in Australia – and while waiting – are allowed into the community?
Also, what are the numbers that make it to Australia? Is it really such a big problem.
I think the problem with refugees is a perception problem i.e. the perception of some Australians about them. Its not really an economic issue. Its something else. Unless the government manages the perception of some Australians about refugees, it will not be resolved.
Australians, cattles, refugees and Four Corners
@ Huw #6
Hi Huw, you suggest that both can be met – and I’m with you on that. But what perplexes me, and hence the key reason for this posting: Why is the Malaysia solution still on, in comparison to the speed in which the government made the decision to ban live cattle exports?
Hence, my request to Australians are:
(1) If you do value human life more than animal rights – please take action to stop the Malaysia solution;
(2) If you value human life as much as you do animal rights – please take action to stop the Malaysia solution in the similar manner you stopped the Australian government from exporting live cattle;
@ Stuart # 5
Agreed that my proposition is species centric. However being species centric does not lead to abuse of the environment and its constituents. That’s an outcome of greed.
Thailand’s invisible hand
The Nation certainly used to be the most vocal anti-Taksin.Red/PT publication. I remember, in the days before I was banned from Thai Visa for 30 years for daring to mention rampant gay pedophilia in Chiang Mai, I was an avid reader and was dumbfounded by the blatant bias. In fact Thai Visa even in the days before only allowing Nation tirades had a moderator with a PAD avatar attacking any dissent.
So I am very surprised at that Nation article, BP was also biased but less so. Suspect other posters suggestion of covering their arse is correct. Most have discerned what the hidden hand is, yet even here I would prefer not to say more for fear of being tracked down and jailed.
So far to say, as previously expressed, I can’t see a PT government being allowed to exist even if they did manage a landslide. If Taksin really wants back I would expect a Night of the Long Knives operation to ensure his party longevity.
Thailand’s invisible hand
If anything, it seems to be Bangkok Post that has moved into “poll” position (excuse the pun) – conspicuously set on fighting PT to the bitter end…. whereas The Nation really seems to have seen the writing on the wall. Not excluding the possibility that both have sufficient “ins” with the shadow players to know that the general election is far from being the end of the “who governs next?” story.
In any case, the fact that each title sports the occasional Pravit/Suranand fig-leaf shouldn’t distract from what’s going on in the rest of these publications the rest of the time.
Chuvit on the streets
c38
“Quite interesting here in this context is why there was very little public investigations into who financed the PAD in 2006 and 2008…”
And now. Can it really be just collecting-box donations from the dwindling “crowdlet” of supporters that finances the ongoing if under-populated presence at Rachadaemnon? Or finances the truly massive “Vote No” poster campaign – a prize example of which can be seen here: http://twitpic.com/5c8jc4 ?
Australians, cattles, refugees and Four Corners
Greg,
your posts on Malaysian politics keep us well-informed on the latest developments, and I sympathise with your sentiment regarding the “Malaysia solution”, however it does you no credit to fall back on the time old argument against animal rights: that respecting them is akin to treating animals as more important than humans.
Surely we can avoid torturing animals unnecessarily in Indonesia AND protect human rights in Malaysia. I don’t see how the two are mutually exclusive!
Chuvit on the streets
“I reluctantly voted it “thumbs down” because the first and last paragraphs do contain what I regard as unwarranted ad hominem attacks on Nick Nostitz’s reportings”
Read Nick’s reports from before the April/May Bangkok rallies, then go to Youtube and see the video clips of the speeches that were being given at those rallies. Not much objectivity at that point or at least some very selective reporting.
I do think Nick learned something reporting on the riots, though he is struggling with how to deal with it and reconcile that with the peaceful demonstration he thought it was going to be.
In the areas outside Khao Chakan, the UDD got maybe two people to climb up on the truck and give up their ID cards. Most people did not pay them much attention. This was because the Kamnan was not on the truck and was not supporting the effort. Nor were the attempts by the UDD to setup a community radio station allowed.
Not sure I ever seen Sanoh say anything about the UDD. I think his hope was that the shootings would force the Abhisit government to resign (as has happened every other time such incidents occurred) and he would be the ideal candidate for a caretaker PM. I have little doubt he knew what the radicals were up to and saw right through the strategy so he stayed out it.
My guess is he is going to get a serious Cabinet position, likely, the Interior. Of course, Thaksin may screw him again, just like he did after the 2005 election.
Thailand’s invisible hand
“The Nation has seen the polls. It is turning its coat, like the Vicar of Bray, getting ready to grovel to the new government.”
I don’t think so — they were pretty anti-Thaksin before the coup.
The more I read the Nation, with its bizarre mix of Thanongs and Pravits, the more I think it’s less of an ideology with them and more of just a half-assed sloppiness that guides their editorial line.
It’s really just a lazy, crappy newspaper, where anyone can get a job, do very little, and rise to their level of comfortable incompetence. (Full disclosure, I worked there once). The yellow tinge of recent years is probably just the easiest way to fake journalism, so they go that way.
If they had any kind of genuine unified editorial view, or leadership, or plan, then they wouldn’t have even published Pravit or Chang Noi all these years.
Thailand’s invisible hand
R. N. England – 2
It is turning its coat, like the Vicar of Bray, getting ready to grovel to the new government.
Except that wasn’t what happened last time Thaksin won was it R. N.? So I guess you know some inside information we don’t, so please share it with us.
Thailand’s invisible hand
R.N. England #2
I would not say that.
Khun Pravit got his critical articles quite regularly published over the past few years. Most of them not on the front page
Chuvit on the streets
“John Smith”:
I reported that before the violence the protesters had a good time – because they simply had. During their tours through Bangkok they had a great reception. Anything else would be biased misreporting – which we have seen more than enough of in the Bangkok Post and in the Nation (apart from a minority of journalists that try to keep their professional ethics up).
I have also mentioned in my reporting the M79 grenades, and i have published photos of those, such as in my story on Saturday Red, Sunday Yellow. Nevertheless – i will not without one bit of supporting evidence blame the UDD leadership for those attacks, as many like to do. That would be libelous, and according to my investigations, a wrong accusation.
There were many hundreds if not thousands of speeches on stages. I can’t sit for 24 hours and record every speech. The vast majority of speeches were about injustice, many of course on Thaksin, and whatever not. Virulent Red Shirt opponents concentrate on two single speeches (out of all the speeches) – one by Nattawut, which, if you look at the video, has been edited (only part of the speech was shown, and i reserve my judgement there until i see the whole speech), and one by Arisaman (and in my book there will be some criticism of him regarding particular incidents, especially the parliament invasion).
As to NGOs – you are entitled to your views. As a journalist i often had to work with NGOs – and my experiences are a mixed bunch, and i am more than careful with anything that comes from NGOs. To much wrong information, to many selfserving agendas, too many attempts to instrumentalize me. Not saying that all are like this. But far too many.
As to your experiences on Sakeo. Give me evidence other than anecdotal “personal experience” by an anonymous bloke on the internet, without corroboration, and i will consider.
I do not doubt that there are quite a few not so nice people allied with the UDD (i am not naive) – but the accusations of protesters being “paid” has often neglected that protesters themselves have donated to the funds. Starting from village rallies were Red Shirts donated small amounts in donation boxes (i have many photos of that), up to rich businessmen donating substantial funds. Face it – no protest movement can function without money.
Quite interesting here in this context is why there was very little public investigations into who financed the PAD in 2006 and 2008…
Sanoh is a godfather. He was allied with Thaksin. The first time i photographed him was at the PAD stage in 2006, and recently i photographed him in Udon during a P.T. election campaign. Who knows which color he will don tomorrow, most likely the winning color.
If you hope that a ex-brothel owner in whose brothels “allegedly” some very underaged girls were available, and who hired one of the most brutal mafia figures to organize the raid on Sukhumvit square, then i can’t help you.
Whatever happens if and when the P.T. is in government we will see. Personally, i am mostly interested in street politics. If there are no street politics – i will not bother.
Thailand’s invisible hand
The Nation has seen the polls. It is turning its coat, like the Vicar of Bray, getting ready to grovel to the new government.
Prayuth’s threat
John c29:
Thai friend returned from holiday to France. She said she hated it and loves Thailand. Why? “So much problems because everything must be according to law”.
No kidding.
Thailand’s invisible hand
I considered Pravit to be the small beacon of hope for Thailand news industry. I’m hoping that many others will join him and expose to invisible hand. On a side note, I heard that they will step up the crack down on LM, many of my associates have been giving me warning about writing on the web, its certainly becoming more and more scary.
New Mandala turns five!
Happy birthday New Mandala. Keep up the good work. Without you, we expats here would have brainwashed and turned into defenders of the despotic regime by The Nation and thaivisa.com.
Bkk Post has changed its tune lately as it has seen where the new wind is blowing.
Australians, cattles, refugees and Four Corners
“Would Australians agree that human lives are more important than Australian cattle?”
No, I don’t. That’s a species-centric point of view that in generations to come will be judged as a barbarous and ignorant perception of our place in the universe.
The misperception that our species sits at the centre of the universe goes hand in hand with the equally barbarous and ignorant view that god created us in his own image. I’ll add laughable to that.
Chuvit on the streets
John Smith’s #36 posting does have some good points about Chuvit and the NGOs, and I would be interested in more elaboration about the extent of UDD payoffs in Sa Kaeo, but I reluctantly voted it “thumbs down” because the first and last paragraphs do contain what I regard as unwarranted ad hominem attacks on Nick Nostitz’s reportings. I want to second the motion stated elsewhere on New Mandala that Nick’s photojournalism is first rate, and he does a better job than most at maintaining objectivity in a very volatile environment. Because the MSM in Thailand are such cowards, it is a demonstrated fact that without his efforts we would be even more in the dark than we are about the politics of the PAD and the UDD. And don’t forget, he came very close to getting killed in Bangkok last year for simply doing his job.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
[…] a year after the Bangkok Massacre it is no longer disputed by anyone, except acting Thai PM Abhisit, a smattering of oddball expat […]