I am not an expert in international law, but I can tell you what I know. Whether one state can successfully ‘act’ for its citizens or not depends on the level of attachment that citizen has to that state. For example, if Mr Gordon was not born in the US, has been granted an American passport, but he hardly lives in the US, then it is not likely that he has sufficient attachment to the US. Of course the US can still act for him, but if the case goes to the International Court, they are likely to say that there is no sufficient attachment between himself and the US.
In this case, however, Mr Gordon has been living in the US for decades. Thus the fact that he has dual citizenship is irrelevant; he has more than sufficient attachment with the US, and the ICJ will regard him as a citizen. Of course, it is at the end up to the US whether they will take action. But in case they choose to take action, they are likely to be successful in helping Mr Gordon out of Thailand prison.
I’d love to see Chris Baker analyse the Chiang Mai variety of the Democrat posters – the face removing vandalisers could be doing the Democrats a favour because from what I’ve heard about them, ‘shifty’ should be added to SteveCM’s ‘sneering smirking’ description of Abhisit’s photo in them.
I asked about the dual citizenship because it complicates matters for Mr. Gordon in terms of the US State Department helping him. My understanding about dual citizenship is that there is nothing in the current constitution of Thailand that prohibits hold citizenship of another country, however, dual citizenship is not ‘recognized’. It is the same for the US. The reason it makes things more complicated for Mr. Gordon is that holding Thai citizenship makes it difficult for State Department officials to legally assist him. I am not a lawyer, but that is my understanding from my friends who are.
As far as helping Mr. Gordon, making sure that the State Department as well as his congressional representative for his state of residence are aware of his situation, would probably be the best first step. Followed by making sure as many news sources are given this information and asked to report on it. Facebook and twitter are also good options; anything to get more people aware of the situation. But having the most information about the situation is essential. Such as, in which state is Mr. Gordon a resident? What is was the situation surrounding the offense? i.e. was the link posted while he was in the US or in Thailand? and so on.
Seeing the Democrat posters in the north my first response was the faces cut out could be the work of his own party as the photo was a shocker….it presented the local candidate accompanied by a kind of sneering smirking Abhisit.
thank you for your decision to publish, and hopefully not perish in the attempt
just like to add another category of people that perhaps we can all feel sympathy for as prospective victims of Thailands distorted society:
“those that are currently above the law in Thailand and are discovered via Wikileaks to be committing lese majeste and much worse, crimes against ordinary Thai people, in their thoughts, speech and deeds”
we all hope that in the near future, they are exposed and suffer fear and punishment publicly and serve as examples for others to show that repression of the people will not be tolerated
I wish I can press ‘like’ to your reply for one million times ^_^
You said:
“If you think you had an opportunity to do the right thing, and you didn’t do it, that can haunt you afterwards.”
-Depends on the person I guess. Many lawyers can go to the Court and defend their clients (the wrongdoers), and intimidate the victims with no regret. I am glad you are not one of those people.
You said:
“And also, if the day ever comes when I can visit again, that will be far more wonderful than the sadness of having to stay away for a while.”
My post is completely irrelevant to this topic but I just post to reply about the Thai law regarding dual citizenships. The law itself does not specifically say you have to denounce your Thai citizenships once you become other country’s citizens. All it requires for one to do is they must ‘inform’ the Thai Embassy about it (which we did, and all they told us was ‘thank you for notifying us’). I must admit, however, that I am not sure whether the law has changed (although I don’t think it has).
@Ajarn Somsak ka,
Regardless of whether Mr Gordon has Thai citizenship or not, he is still a US citizen. Hence the US can do something about it if they choose to na ka, especially this arrest is related with the fundamental right of free speech and political preference, which is the ‘jus cogens’ (ie. fundamental norm of international law). Of course they do not have the obligation, but they certainly have the right. The issue is whether they would exercise their right or not.
Very interesting analyses of both Abhisit and Yingluck. So I’m hoping you can do some analyses of Chuwit – plenty of stuff there – and also Number 21 who looks a sweet and dorky guy. If I had a vote and any idea of what he was standing for, I’d be tempted.
One thing that I have noticed since the last election is that there seem to be less of the photos that rely on uniforms and graduation suits and there seem to be a few more slight smiles and less stiffness.
As a Bangkok Designer. I think it has been designed by Design Elements just by designer who think everything as an Object. Very good Typography especially those PRA-CHA-THI-PAT which re-designed from the older and out-of-date one by a very good design firm in Bangkok . But Overall design give us the same massages that he has got no Dimension, No Feeling, Far away and flat.
[…] stuff. A review of the Middle Mekong River Basin: Studies in Tai History and Culture is here at New Mandala! The book is a collection of Constance Wilson’s works, and the review […]
Voice of Taksin was closed down a long time ago but its replacement called Red Power still available. However, its editor Khun Somyot is in jail because Abhisit’s invisible backers are scared to see more and more people reading this kind of publication.
Did Abhisit learn this tactics (jailing people and closing down media) from Burma or North Korea ? Would you call this action as one of his accomplishments in the last 2 years ? Btw, my old classmates always told me that reading playboy is more fun than talking about politics and of course I agreed with them.
Is this the Democrats counter to the PTP Yingluck poster? If so are they are just copying once again?
As the government wouldn’t it be better to say Re-elect rather than elect or have the Democrats seeded the Re-elect word to the PTP as they never were actually elected.
Increase minimum wage is just as wee hypocritical as they didn’t want to only a few months ago and when they did it amounted to a beer a month in some areas, like Phayao.
They campaigned against the WOD of the TRT party and now they have adopted a WOD policy. WOW
And, pray tell, why would you need more student loans when the Democrats keep telling us that they have brought in 15 years of free education?
Personally I see a desperate party that waited too long to call an election and their rivals who were in disarray a year ago have come full circle and reinvented themselves leaving the Democrats to try desperately to catch up.
If they photoshop Abhisit any “whiter” he’s going to be transparent. Wouldn’t it be more clever to actually make him “darker” so he looks more like a Thai person instead of a part-Vietnamese, Hakkanese Chinese person?
“Love or hate the guy at least leave the poor posters alone.”
I totally agree. Leave the posters alone, all sides should be allowed to campaign without fear or prejudice.
But I do enjoy reading Chris’ comparatively harmless analysis of those posters. I wish all discussions within my extended family on the upcoming election could be equally harmlessly interesting and done with candor.
My mom just removed a Thaksin printout thats being used as a dart-board. My aunt just removed an Ahbisit printout thats being used as a dart board in her house. What would these men do without wives, I wonder?
I applaud your righteous indignation at those defaced posters. I totally agree with you that such vandalism is very unbecoming of any educated or cultured person.
Perhaps you can advised me on this dilemma: (my extended family is about half yellow and half red – so you can imagine the fights we are having) a distant cousin – pro PAD and ardent royalist – has been caught red-handed by his parents chatting with his friends online on how to pretend to be red-shirts vandalizing Democrat Party. They have been assured that being royalists they would not be charged for helping to discredit any party that is not the patriotic democrat party. The family’s solution is to ship the boy overseas until after the elections. What do you suggest the parents do?
@Nganadeeleg
The anti-PAD from the North had been actively removing any advertising posters by Democrat Party or PAD for a while now – I believe with a vengence since it became clear that the PAD will be getting away with blockading the Airport and its leaders rewarded for so publicly breaking the law.
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FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
@Khun р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕░р╕Ър╕╕р╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕н
I am not an expert in international law, but I can tell you what I know. Whether one state can successfully ‘act’ for its citizens or not depends on the level of attachment that citizen has to that state. For example, if Mr Gordon was not born in the US, has been granted an American passport, but he hardly lives in the US, then it is not likely that he has sufficient attachment to the US. Of course the US can still act for him, but if the case goes to the International Court, they are likely to say that there is no sufficient attachment between himself and the US.
In this case, however, Mr Gordon has been living in the US for decades. Thus the fact that he has dual citizenship is irrelevant; he has more than sufficient attachment with the US, and the ICJ will regard him as a citizen. Of course, it is at the end up to the US whether they will take action. But in case they choose to take action, they are likely to be successful in helping Mr Gordon out of Thailand prison.
Just my two cents 🙂
Abhisit on the streets
I’d love to see Chris Baker analyse the Chiang Mai variety of the Democrat posters – the face removing vandalisers could be doing the Democrats a favour because from what I’ve heard about them, ‘shifty’ should be added to SteveCM’s ‘sneering smirking’ description of Abhisit’s photo in them.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
I asked about the dual citizenship because it complicates matters for Mr. Gordon in terms of the US State Department helping him. My understanding about dual citizenship is that there is nothing in the current constitution of Thailand that prohibits hold citizenship of another country, however, dual citizenship is not ‘recognized’. It is the same for the US. The reason it makes things more complicated for Mr. Gordon is that holding Thai citizenship makes it difficult for State Department officials to legally assist him. I am not a lawyer, but that is my understanding from my friends who are.
As far as helping Mr. Gordon, making sure that the State Department as well as his congressional representative for his state of residence are aware of his situation, would probably be the best first step. Followed by making sure as many news sources are given this information and asked to report on it. Facebook and twitter are also good options; anything to get more people aware of the situation. But having the most information about the situation is essential. Such as, in which state is Mr. Gordon a resident? What is was the situation surrounding the offense? i.e. was the link posted while he was in the US or in Thailand? and so on.
Abhisit on the streets
Seeing the Democrat posters in the north my first response was the faces cut out could be the work of his own party as the photo was a shocker….it presented the local candidate accompanied by a kind of sneering smirking Abhisit.
Abhisit on the streets
I am no ‘Dear Abby’ but I’ll oblige Nuomi (#9).
Dear Nuomi,
Your extended family, parents, children should:
(1) Parents should cease eavesdropping on their children’s facebook pals.
(2) Time for Adult children to get jobs . . better than parents stupidly sending them off to nearby Cambodia to meet Arisman.
(3) Extended family should stop sharing colored underwears et al.
Anyone else with NM with love or family problems should write Walker or Farrelly instead.
Sincerely,
Vichai
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Amdrew Marshall #87
thank you for your decision to publish, and hopefully not perish in the attempt
just like to add another category of people that perhaps we can all feel sympathy for as prospective victims of Thailands distorted society:
“those that are currently above the law in Thailand and are discovered via Wikileaks to be committing lese majeste and much worse, crimes against ordinary Thai people, in their thoughts, speech and deeds”
we all hope that in the near future, they are exposed and suffer fear and punishment publicly and serve as examples for others to show that repression of the people will not be tolerated
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Khun Andrew ka,
I wish I can press ‘like’ to your reply for one million times ^_^
You said:
“If you think you had an opportunity to do the right thing, and you didn’t do it, that can haunt you afterwards.”
-Depends on the person I guess. Many lawyers can go to the Court and defend their clients (the wrongdoers), and intimidate the victims with no regret. I am glad you are not one of those people.
You said:
“And also, if the day ever comes when I can visit again, that will be far more wonderful than the sadness of having to stay away for a while.”
-I completely concur.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
@Nuomi,
My post is completely irrelevant to this topic but I just post to reply about the Thai law regarding dual citizenships. The law itself does not specifically say you have to denounce your Thai citizenships once you become other country’s citizens. All it requires for one to do is they must ‘inform’ the Thai Embassy about it (which we did, and all they told us was ‘thank you for notifying us’). I must admit, however, that I am not sure whether the law has changed (although I don’t think it has).
@Ajarn Somsak ka,
Regardless of whether Mr Gordon has Thai citizenship or not, he is still a US citizen. Hence the US can do something about it if they choose to na ka, especially this arrest is related with the fundamental right of free speech and political preference, which is the ‘jus cogens’ (ie. fundamental norm of international law). Of course they do not have the obligation, but they certainly have the right. The issue is whether they would exercise their right or not.
Just my two cents na ka, CT
Scorecard on Abhisit and Yingluck
@Khun Nganadeeleg wrote:
“I agree with Kate – transparency & accountability is very important regarding…Heads of State (and their family members).”
I agree that transparency and responsibility for Head of State is very important, and Thailand lacks that badly isn’t it?
Scorecard on Abhisit and Yingluck
Kate and Ngnanadeleeg, transparency is something that you have to see through. This is not easy.
Abhisit on the streets
Very interesting analyses of both Abhisit and Yingluck. So I’m hoping you can do some analyses of Chuwit – plenty of stuff there – and also Number 21 who looks a sweet and dorky guy. If I had a vote and any idea of what he was standing for, I’d be tempted.
One thing that I have noticed since the last election is that there seem to be less of the photos that rely on uniforms and graduation suits and there seem to be a few more slight smiles and less stiffness.
Abhisit on the streets
As a Bangkok Designer. I think it has been designed by Design Elements just by designer who think everything as an Object. Very good Typography especially those PRA-CHA-THI-PAT which re-designed from the older and out-of-date one by a very good design firm in Bangkok . But Overall design give us the same massages that he has got no Dimension, No Feeling, Far away and flat.
Review of The Middle Mekong River Basin
[…] stuff. A review of the Middle Mekong River Basin: Studies in Tai History and Culture is here at New Mandala! The book is a collection of Constance Wilson’s works, and the review […]
Yingluck on the streets
Voice of Taksin was closed down a long time ago but its replacement called Red Power still available. However, its editor Khun Somyot is in jail because Abhisit’s invisible backers are scared to see more and more people reading this kind of publication.
Did Abhisit learn this tactics (jailing people and closing down media) from Burma or North Korea ? Would you call this action as one of his accomplishments in the last 2 years ? Btw, my old classmates always told me that reading playboy is more fun than talking about politics and of course I agreed with them.
Abhisit on the streets
A couple of my offbeat comments.
Is this the Democrats counter to the PTP Yingluck poster? If so are they are just copying once again?
As the government wouldn’t it be better to say Re-elect rather than elect or have the Democrats seeded the Re-elect word to the PTP as they never were actually elected.
Increase minimum wage is just as wee hypocritical as they didn’t want to only a few months ago and when they did it amounted to a beer a month in some areas, like Phayao.
They campaigned against the WOD of the TRT party and now they have adopted a WOD policy. WOW
And, pray tell, why would you need more student loans when the Democrats keep telling us that they have brought in 15 years of free education?
Personally I see a desperate party that waited too long to call an election and their rivals who were in disarray a year ago have come full circle and reinvented themselves leaving the Democrats to try desperately to catch up.
Abhisit on the streets
If they photoshop Abhisit any “whiter” he’s going to be transparent. Wouldn’t it be more clever to actually make him “darker” so he looks more like a Thai person instead of a part-Vietnamese, Hakkanese Chinese person?
Abhisit on the streets
#1
“Love or hate the guy at least leave the poor posters alone.”
I totally agree. Leave the posters alone, all sides should be allowed to campaign without fear or prejudice.
But I do enjoy reading Chris’ comparatively harmless analysis of those posters. I wish all discussions within my extended family on the upcoming election could be equally harmlessly interesting and done with candor.
My mom just removed a Thaksin printout thats being used as a dart-board. My aunt just removed an Ahbisit printout thats being used as a dart board in her house. What would these men do without wives, I wonder?
Abhisit on the streets
Dear Khun Vichai,
I applaud your righteous indignation at those defaced posters. I totally agree with you that such vandalism is very unbecoming of any educated or cultured person.
Perhaps you can advised me on this dilemma: (my extended family is about half yellow and half red – so you can imagine the fights we are having) a distant cousin – pro PAD and ardent royalist – has been caught red-handed by his parents chatting with his friends online on how to pretend to be red-shirts vandalizing Democrat Party. They have been assured that being royalists they would not be charged for helping to discredit any party that is not the patriotic democrat party. The family’s solution is to ship the boy overseas until after the elections. What do you suggest the parents do?
@Nganadeeleg
The anti-PAD from the North had been actively removing any advertising posters by Democrat Party or PAD for a while now – I believe with a vengence since it became clear that the PAD will be getting away with blockading the Airport and its leaders rewarded for so publicly breaking the law.
FACT’s plea for Joe Gordon
Thanks for clearing up your original point, Nuomi. I find nothing there to disagree with.
I suppose of that Swiss fellow who defaced the king’s pictures could get pardoned, any foreigner can.
Unless he’s also Thai.
Scorecard on Abhisit and Yingluck
Nganadeeleg – 29
Yeah agree on that, the politicians have to declare their asset but not the judge, not the military, and of cause not the Head of State.