Has there been a recent study of Bangkok’s middle class? I suspect from personal observation that it has changed in its make up considerably over the last thirty years. When I first came to Bangkok I suspect a very large proportion, possibly even a majority, was of Chinese ethnicity. (I’m sure if we put the clock back another twenty years there would be no doubt this was the case.)
Now I would suppose the majority were Thai either born in the provinces, or first generation born in Bangkok, still with strong links back to the country. Of these I again suppose that the majority would be of Isaan stock. The brightest kids from the northeast do tend to end up in Bangkok one way or another.
The Latin-derived “prostration” gives the degrading practice a false tone of civility. I humbly suggest that we should use the Norse-derived “grovelling” instead.
All this is probably connected with the offense Thais take at gestures made with the feet, which would have been a convenient way of giving instructions to grovelling slaves. This would place hostility to foot gestures in the same ethos as the abolition of grovelling and slavery. “Do not tolerate foot gestures” fits well in Chulalongkorn’s programme for the liberation of his people.
John.k
I believe it is still optional and denotes the type of occasion. People from all walks of society may achieve a “state of grace” by proximity to a perceived superior be it a god, king or respected elder. The psychological benefits of prostration, physical or mental are known and well perceived in Thai or secular society.
This is rather different from the psychological pressure induced in standing for the royal anthem in a cinema or remaining stationary for Phibun/Sarits national anthem twice daily.
On a similar note I would be very interested to know what happened to the ho attended an audience with their majesties wearing a “prai” T shirt last year. As I remember her brother had been shot by the army. I think she elected not to prostrate on that occasion.
Nuomi,
I think yoll nd that’s not a snake but the much beloved thai water monitor that supports the Thai economy by being eagerly exported to Chinese restaurants to avoid bad luck.
I’d just like to say thanks to Nich for posting this on New Mandala. I believe this augmented reality app offers exciting new prospects for the way we travel and see the world around us.
If anyone would like to know more about the app or the tour, please contact me.
I can’t believe how many westerners choose to overlook these facts and suck up the simplified dichotomy of ammat vs phrai, the big bad aristocrats against the peace-loving farmers. That’s just a comic-book simplification cooked up for the masses.
Just wondering, what’s the more complex version of the whole thing? Its not that I think this conflict is simply ammart vs prai like you said, but this is to be the conflict that decided what Thailand will become in the next 30 years or so, so I’m really curious what do you think is the deeper meaning of all these?
Well, I guess Amart like to have pets in their house. To compare politicians that loyal to them like these animals (esp the font dog) seems to make sense to me.
That is an interesting perspective William. But what if the “Mad Man” is but an instrument of the Prime Minister of Malaysia who is bent on using him to stoke religious tensions?
The swing in Utusan Malaysia’s stance came shortly after the 2008 election when Khalid was replaced by Aziz Ishak. According to Hata, the latter does not question the editorial directives set by the Umno political bureau which reportedly sits every Monday night to discuss the paper’s agenda for the week.
Those present are the president Najib Tun Razak, deputy president Muhyiddin Yassin, the three vice-presidents – Ahmad Zahid Hamidi, Hishamuddin Hussein and Safie Apdal – secretary-general Tengku Adnan Tengku Mansor and information chief Ahmad Maslan.
The agenda is then communicated to Utusan Malaysia’s editor-in-chief via the prime minister’s office. The paper will run an issue for three days before dropping it completely unless it receives strong public support from top BN ministers.
It’s a clever strategy because by the third day the other media would have snapped it up to continue milking it, which would leave Utusan Malaysia free to start the ball rolling on another issue.
As many have noted, racial tensions would be very much something that the Prime Minister of Malaysia prefers and letting Malaysians and the world know this, in my opinion, is of critical importance.
Is there some claim that royals or whomever are of divine origin in some way? It is common practice across Buddhism to perform prostrations at altars or before highly-revered clergy.
If there is no such claim for divinity for the royals, what’s the point of prostrating to royals? It seems to me that Thailand, as a Buddhist country, could surely provided some clarity here.
As the piece mentioned, the practice was revoked, then reinstated because the “people” wanted it. Given the undemocratic nature of Thai politics, it’s not a stretch to believe it probably not a “grass roots” up-welling in favor of reinstatement of the prostration to royals.
I’d say it’s okay for those who wish to do so but it should be optional; certainly no one should be forced to prostrate.
Many apologies for the delay, which I am sure is frustrating for many people. I am in the middle of writing the story and expect a near-final draft to be completed within three days. Without wishing to stretch any further the already fragile forbearance of my employer, I expect the story to be in the public domain by the end of May at the very latest, whatever else happens.
Looks like a pretty accurate representation of the possibilities to me, although I don’t, of course support the message.
Does anyone know why likening a person to the hea (monitor lizard) is considered to be the greatest insult imaginable within Thai culture? What does it mean?
Also, I noticed on a recent trip to Nonthaburi, that bastion of Redshirt support, that all the posters of PM Opposite have had their mouths cut out by terrorists. Well, to be accurate, not all. Some have merely had their teeth blackened. Does the empty mouth thing have any particular cultural significance, or should one read it as one would in the west (‘big, hollow mouth’)?
I do love community participation in the arts, especially Street Art, so I’ll be looking out for more of this type of thing. Given the very large number of people here with a high degree of visual arts talent, and the natural Thai propensity for wit, people of my ilk could be in for some fun entertainment in the near future.
:Scary; I’ve heard this a million times as an English teacher in Japan for over 7 years. Always from some person that is desperate to share that they have studied linguistics, yet lack common commuinication skills. Perhaps the two go hand in hand.
If you have studied linguistics; anybody; I recommend study life skills, because the two don’t seem to mesh. And get a friend that hasn’t studied it, so you can learn about real life.
The hardworking water buffalo whose sweat and blood provides rice for the Nation’s dining table.
The majestic and ferocious tiger whose valor defended our borders from our enemies that we may sleep safe in our beds at night.
The brave dog whose loyalty to the country is unquestionable, whose service to the country invaluable.
The quiet but effective snake whose hard work kept rodents of our fields that fruits and vegetables may grace our dining tables.
And the every vivacious monkey that kept us all entertained and hopeful through the dark days.
These creatures are all worthy to become MPs, extending their services from provincial to national level.
I would be honoured to have all of the above wonderful virtues attributed to me.
Only FOOLs would look down on them.
Only FOOLs would mock them.
Only FOOLs would say ‘no’ to voting these virtuous animals into the parliament.
This supporter of the above animals would like to lodge a formal protest with the EC for contempt towards these great creatures and sue the advertisers for libel.
HRK @ 15: I agree, it does not make sense that Sarit acceded to popular demand. And I don’t think there was such popular demand at that time anyway. The monarchy had lost its prestige, and only during the Sarit period did it start to regain it. Sarit was the one who started building up the monarchy again. His “genius” was realizing the powerful symbiotic relationship that could exist between the military and monarchy (after years of them fighting against each other and yoyoing up and down in power). Sarit built up the king, and the king built up the military. The picture of the king at Sarit’s deathbed says it all.
Thak Chaloemtiarana’s book “The Politics of Despotic Paternalism” is an excellent history of the Sarit era.
The 2006 coup certainly marked the demise of constitutionalism. But as for “totalitarianism,” it was Thaksin who erased the powers of any independent arm of government. Remember the power initially wielded by the CCC and AMLO? It didn’t last long under the CEO. Bodies such as the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission and Human Rights Commission were similarly hobbled. And Thaksin’s criminal defamation lawsuits lodged against journalists began the decline of a free press, which had made some progress in the 1990s. His total disregard for the judiciary, his swaggering endorsement of extra-judicial executions by police, and concentration of vast powers under the executive branch were the realities of Thaksin’s administration.
None of these can excuse the coup. Nor does the coup remake totalitarian Thaksin into some progressive icon of democracy. I can’t believe how many westerners choose to overlook these facts and suck up the simplified dichotomy of ammat vs phrai, the big bad aristocrats against the peace-loving farmers. That’s just a comic-book simplification cooked up for the masses.
Such propaganda has a way of coming back to bite you. During Songkran, a relative was lamenting the national disharmony t. “We need strong leaders who can control people and keep order, he said. Maybe Thailand should be communist.”
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
News from northeast Thailand
Has there been a recent study of Bangkok’s middle class? I suspect from personal observation that it has changed in its make up considerably over the last thirty years. When I first came to Bangkok I suspect a very large proportion, possibly even a majority, was of Chinese ethnicity. (I’m sure if we put the clock back another twenty years there would be no doubt this was the case.)
Now I would suppose the majority were Thai either born in the provinces, or first generation born in Bangkok, still with strong links back to the country. Of these I again suppose that the majority would be of Isaan stock. The brightest kids from the northeast do tend to end up in Bangkok one way or another.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
The Latin-derived “prostration” gives the degrading practice a false tone of civility. I humbly suggest that we should use the Norse-derived “grovelling” instead.
All this is probably connected with the offense Thais take at gestures made with the feet, which would have been a convenient way of giving instructions to grovelling slaves. This would place hostility to foot gestures in the same ethos as the abolition of grovelling and slavery. “Do not tolerate foot gestures” fits well in Chulalongkorn’s programme for the liberation of his people.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
John.k
I believe it is still optional and denotes the type of occasion. People from all walks of society may achieve a “state of grace” by proximity to a perceived superior be it a god, king or respected elder. The psychological benefits of prostration, physical or mental are known and well perceived in Thai or secular society.
This is rather different from the psychological pressure induced in standing for the royal anthem in a cinema or remaining stationary for Phibun/Sarits national anthem twice daily.
On a similar note I would be very interested to know what happened to the ho attended an audience with their majesties wearing a “prai” T shirt last year. As I remember her brother had been shot by the army. I think she elected not to prostrate on that occasion.
Don’t let animals into parliament!
Nuomi,
I think yoll nd that’s not a snake but the much beloved thai water monitor that supports the Thai economy by being eagerly exported to Chinese restaurants to avoid bad luck.
A high-tech Bangkok tour
I’d just like to say thanks to Nich for posting this on New Mandala. I believe this augmented reality app offers exciting new prospects for the way we travel and see the world around us.
If anyone would like to know more about the app or the tour, please contact me.
🙂
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
That’s great Khun Andrew. Looking forward to read it! Take your time. I don’t mind even one week delay if the article is going to be a great one 🙂
Don’t let animals into parliament!
A picture like this would make a great animation piece it could be titled ‘Thailand’s political Zoo’ no tame animals allowed.
Lese embassy!
Arthur McBride -7
I can’t believe how many westerners choose to overlook these facts and suck up the simplified dichotomy of ammat vs phrai, the big bad aristocrats against the peace-loving farmers. That’s just a comic-book simplification cooked up for the masses.
Just wondering, what’s the more complex version of the whole thing? Its not that I think this conflict is simply ammart vs prai like you said, but this is to be the conflict that decided what Thailand will become in the next 30 years or so, so I’m really curious what do you think is the deeper meaning of all these?
Don’t let animals into parliament!
Well, I guess Amart like to have pets in their house. To compare politicians that loyal to them like these animals (esp the font dog) seems to make sense to me.
PERKASA to crush Christians
That is an interesting perspective William. But what if the “Mad Man” is but an instrument of the Prime Minister of Malaysia who is bent on using him to stoke religious tensions?
Read this article on Free Malaysia Today:
As many have noted, racial tensions would be very much something that the Prime Minister of Malaysia prefers and letting Malaysians and the world know this, in my opinion, is of critical importance.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
Is there some claim that royals or whomever are of divine origin in some way? It is common practice across Buddhism to perform prostrations at altars or before highly-revered clergy.
If there is no such claim for divinity for the royals, what’s the point of prostrating to royals? It seems to me that Thailand, as a Buddhist country, could surely provided some clarity here.
As the piece mentioned, the practice was revoked, then reinstated because the “people” wanted it. Given the undemocratic nature of Thai politics, it’s not a stretch to believe it probably not a “grass roots” up-welling in favor of reinstatement of the prostration to royals.
I’d say it’s okay for those who wish to do so but it should be optional; certainly no one should be forced to prostrate.
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Many apologies for the delay, which I am sure is frustrating for many people. I am in the middle of writing the story and expect a near-final draft to be completed within three days. Without wishing to stretch any further the already fragile forbearance of my employer, I expect the story to be in the public domain by the end of May at the very latest, whatever else happens.
Don’t let animals into parliament!
Looks like a pretty accurate representation of the possibilities to me, although I don’t, of course support the message.
Does anyone know why likening a person to the hea (monitor lizard) is considered to be the greatest insult imaginable within Thai culture? What does it mean?
Also, I noticed on a recent trip to Nonthaburi, that bastion of Redshirt support, that all the posters of PM Opposite have had their mouths cut out by terrorists. Well, to be accurate, not all. Some have merely had their teeth blackened. Does the empty mouth thing have any particular cultural significance, or should one read it as one would in the west (‘big, hollow mouth’)?
I do love community participation in the arts, especially Street Art, so I’ll be looking out for more of this type of thing. Given the very large number of people here with a high degree of visual arts talent, and the natural Thai propensity for wit, people of my ilk could be in for some fun entertainment in the near future.
PERKASA to crush Christians
Agree with the above two comments……
Village idiot, every village has one.
Reforming Thai language structure
RE:
John W // Apr 17, 2011 at 9:29 pm
#31
You’ve clearly never studied linguistics…
:Scary; I’ve heard this a million times as an English teacher in Japan for over 7 years. Always from some person that is desperate to share that they have studied linguistics, yet lack common commuinication skills. Perhaps the two go hand in hand.
If you have studied linguistics; anybody; I recommend study life skills, because the two don’t seem to mesh. And get a friend that hasn’t studied it, so you can learn about real life.
Don’t let animals into parliament!
The hardworking water buffalo whose sweat and blood provides rice for the Nation’s dining table.
The majestic and ferocious tiger whose valor defended our borders from our enemies that we may sleep safe in our beds at night.
The brave dog whose loyalty to the country is unquestionable, whose service to the country invaluable.
The quiet but effective snake whose hard work kept rodents of our fields that fruits and vegetables may grace our dining tables.
And the every vivacious monkey that kept us all entertained and hopeful through the dark days.
These creatures are all worthy to become MPs, extending their services from provincial to national level.
I would be honoured to have all of the above wonderful virtues attributed to me.
Only FOOLs would look down on them.
Only FOOLs would mock them.
Only FOOLs would say ‘no’ to voting these virtuous animals into the parliament.
This supporter of the above animals would like to lodge a formal protest with the EC for contempt towards these great creatures and sue the advertisers for libel.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
I believe this may be the archived announcement of the original Thai-language decree:
http://th.wikisource.org/wiki/%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%B0%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A8%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%B5%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%98%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%A1%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%B5%E0%B8%A2%E0%B8%A1%E0%B9%83%E0%B8%AB%E0%B8%A1%E0%B9%88
Could Dr Pavin or someone else confirm?
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
c21
As Jon (not Giles) Ungphakorn has just tweeted today:
ungjon Jon Ungphakorn
MICT has banned knowledge of history, knowledge of a reform made by Thailand’s most respected King! http://bit.ly/kmCWb8
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
HRK @ 15: I agree, it does not make sense that Sarit acceded to popular demand. And I don’t think there was such popular demand at that time anyway. The monarchy had lost its prestige, and only during the Sarit period did it start to regain it. Sarit was the one who started building up the monarchy again. His “genius” was realizing the powerful symbiotic relationship that could exist between the military and monarchy (after years of them fighting against each other and yoyoing up and down in power). Sarit built up the king, and the king built up the military. The picture of the king at Sarit’s deathbed says it all.
Thak Chaloemtiarana’s book “The Politics of Despotic Paternalism” is an excellent history of the Sarit era.
Lese embassy!
The 2006 coup certainly marked the demise of constitutionalism. But as for “totalitarianism,” it was Thaksin who erased the powers of any independent arm of government. Remember the power initially wielded by the CCC and AMLO? It didn’t last long under the CEO. Bodies such as the National Peace and Reconciliation Commission and Human Rights Commission were similarly hobbled. And Thaksin’s criminal defamation lawsuits lodged against journalists began the decline of a free press, which had made some progress in the 1990s. His total disregard for the judiciary, his swaggering endorsement of extra-judicial executions by police, and concentration of vast powers under the executive branch were the realities of Thaksin’s administration.
None of these can excuse the coup. Nor does the coup remake totalitarian Thaksin into some progressive icon of democracy. I can’t believe how many westerners choose to overlook these facts and suck up the simplified dichotomy of ammat vs phrai, the big bad aristocrats against the peace-loving farmers. That’s just a comic-book simplification cooked up for the masses.
Such propaganda has a way of coming back to bite you. During Songkran, a relative was lamenting the national disharmony t. “We need strong leaders who can control people and keep order, he said. Maybe Thailand should be communist.”