I’m not a leader in Thailand, so it’s not up to me to lead or provide the direction you crave. My comment was just that – a comment. Such is free speech. It was framed in response to Enrico’s comment, and deliberately limited to that reference. But if my comment happens to inspire change in some small way in some remote corner of the universe, then so be it. As I said in my response to Enrico, it’s amazing what the collective opinions of individuals can sometimes achieve. But I have no aspirations to direct that collective. My own involvement in Thai affairs is limited as an interested observer, with some personal stake in the outcome. I have no aspirations to activism.
I see no leaders in Thailand who are capable of providing the direction you desire. They are corrupt, self-serving and often, to my mind, stupid – nothing more than dumb brutes enslaved to their own base desires. I am appalled by them and those who serve them. No doubt some great leaders will emerge, as they often do in desperate situations. Unfortunately, Thailand makes a bad habit of locking them up or exporting the best ones.
John #16, if we were to talk about Communism in this region, it goes without saying that it must involve the US.
IMO, The rise in popularity of the institute coincides with the threat of Communism. And the royal army receives significant training and backing to help ‘stabilize the region’. Never mind that they decided to stabilize their seat instead with the blood of the people.
With their increase power, reintroducing ‘tradition’ is a piece of cake.
HRK
The answer may lie in the periods growth of ‘communism’ in the region. The reintroduction of the practice in my view was aimed at the military first with the flow on effects to the broader public. The “neo-feudal” nationalism that evolved has served the elite well in maintaining their control over the country. They have always had influence at a high military level and as long as there was some sort of pay off the practice remains intact today.
Poor Nattavud, he seems to be in a perpetual state of defensiveness regarding the sorry state of present day Thailand. Let me try to help him understand.
Farangs who live in Bangkok and Thailand are more interested in the Thailand situation than the Singapore situation, or for that matter the Brunei situation or Sri Lanka situation. After all they live and work in Thailand.
Farangs who look at the present sorry state of Thailand are interested in following informative blogs and making comments as they pretty much see Thailand as playing way below its potential at the moment.
They have a hard time understanding and accepting the regressive policies of the present Thailand government in regard to free speech, unlimited commenting on blogs, freely available unblocked websites, locking up people for their opinions and thoughts and writings.
They wonder why the military and government of a country with so much potential is blocking the majority of their people’s progress upwards, their hopes and their aspirations. Why they are throwing out national elections one time after another and using Army snipers to shoot hundreds of people who dare to object.
They see a country with millions of impoverished and very under-educated people in a dysfunctional state and they often have Thai friends or family who are suffering under the present stratified and rigid system of military and super elite control and dominance which seems to be based on these very few wanting to keep the entire output of Thailand for themselves.
Their curiosity and interest in Thailand is based on their hope that one day, Thailand and the Thai people can find a way to discard all the horrible, bad and downright evil stuff that is going on in present-day Thailand and find their way to a brighter, more hopeful place.
Stuart (c9) – and possibly others – you might not be aware that “Enrico Damanche” writes posts here that are very much tongue firmly in cheek.
They’re intended as a satirical take on particular points of view. As with all good satire, they can be unnervingly close to the real thing. I often read posts here that – after some reflection – I conclude are the real thing….. but, believe me, it’s sometimes very difficult to be sure.
Agree that change is the only constant in life. However, the process of change can be painful and we, human being, need directions when it comes to change.
Your statement that hope the Thais will learn from their Buddhist philosophy does not add to any direction. I would hope for clear leadership and directions when it comes to all forms of societal changes.
For updates on what’s happening in Malaysia, just go to the Malaysia’s Dilemma section.
This video is just to highlight the very talented First Lady of Malaysia and also the fact that tomorrow may indeed not come for her and her husband. The way he is managing the country is very much like how Abhisit is running Thailand. Malaysia, is likely to become a failed-state soon.
I apologise for a countryman’s accidental hijacking of this thread. Nevertheless, I admit to being clueless about Malaysia’s current state of affairs, and would very much appreciate a simple expanation of what this youtube is all about. Thanks.
Khun Nattavud –
I believe the reason why the few people you highlighted (eg Nick) are not interested in the going-ons in Singapore is very simple. In fact as simple and as innocent as the very honest and basic fact that I like blackforest cake and I do not like coffee cake. As a result, I am just not interested in making any comments on the quality of any coffee cakes since my lack of interest infer a lack of knowledge and most likely may not be able to make a fair, informed comments. And – I would be upset with anyone trying to shove a coffee cake down my throat to force me to make a comment via coercion or insinuation or by any other means other than my total willingness to make superficial polite statements which I hope would not offend any expert coffee cake commentors.
Re Singapore Elections
The above being said, this election really is one of the most interesting as far as I remember.
First is the fact that almost every constituency is contested short of LKY’s.
I am most impressed that LHL actually increase the number of single wards – from Singapore perspective, a big step towards giving the opposition more chances of winning seats.
The opposition actually faces the PAP head on, with WP head leaving HG behind with his team of strongest candidates to take on no less than Aljunied and GY. I am almost most impressed by the graciousness and maturity of NS taking on GCT in MP, losing by a mere 5%.
Sad is loss of Potong Pasir by a very narrow margin of only 70 votes.
Sad is also loss for George Yeo, really one of the very few better ministers in Singapore.
Fantastic is the fact that oppposition won their first GRC! They actually won in spite of going against George Yeo!
I could go on and on… but this is really the wrong thread.
If Andrew would post the link to the following youtube, perhaps we can have proper Singapore politics and conspiracy theory discussion there.
Heres the link – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v53_cx1gC9I&feature=player_embedd
Darth Vader and PAP is possibly one of the better tubes made.
I will try to send link to good blog articles from popular writers such as Mr. Brown. Cheers!
I remember that I read that prostration was re-introduced during the Sarit period due to popular demand of the people. They wanted to follow the old ways to pay respect to their beloved king. I tried to find the reference but without success yet. It might be that in one of the writings of Sulak there is a reference to it.
As Sarit was not necessarily a person open for popular demands and “peoples participation”, the explanation remains unconvincing. Why was it then re-introduced?
On one hand, the royalists (especially the Pramote brothers etc., see as well their involvement in blaming Pridi for the death of king Mahidol) were able to make a come back, although still limited. The royalist profile still remained limited during the following Phibul years. Sarit then extended their role. On the other hand, the elite arising after the 1932 revolution followed a cultural programme of nationalist modernization, civilisation and progress. Phibul used the example of Mussolini (rather then Hitler), as in Italy the monarchy was maintained, at least for the time being. In the long run, however, nationalism of the Phibul kind implied popularism and a degree of peoples participation. A republic would be more conductive for such a nationalism and form of government. The arising bureaucratic/military/Thycoon elite that consolidated their power during the late years of Phibul and especially under Sarit needed a new ideology and cultural programme. For them a new-feudal programme basing itself on invented traditions, which could only be monarchic fitted far better, because in such a frame ritualised nationalism is de-connected from peoples participation and popular demands. Such a “neo-feudal” nationalism defines obligations of the people to love the king and nation, without allowing for rights to the nation. In other words, it turns into a rather one sided love affair, in which the lover lies at the feet of the beloved, just like in a proper soap opera.
Eisel, interesting article but in your responses you insist on pali citations etc etc from readers – why then did you write an article on a website where you knew it was unlikely people know pali? Seems to me most points made by readers here are methodological anyway and about GENERAL approaches to texts and religion. If they are wrong about their points, just say so and explain why. Plus, aren’t people allowed to have a general discussion, especially on an internet forum like this, without footnotes and references? Would you give a conference and refuse to answer a question unless someone knew pali or gave you a text reference?
to Mahamekian, well, we know that during Phibun/Phibul’s time (he was anti-monarchist) he reinforced the abolishment of prostration (see also Andreas Sturm in Michell Young’s new book “Nationalism in a global era…”); also Thak Chaloemtiarana (1979, “Thailand: the politics of despotic paternalism”) talks about old royal ceremonies and protocols reintroduced or reinvented during Sarit’s time. No doubt historians can expose some relevant social content from the archives. Indeed, the reintroduction of prostration during Sarit’s time was part and parcel of bringing the monarchy back to the front corresponding to a reactionary response to look backward and to the absolute power and authority that this can bring over society (and a “Thai-style democracy”); the king as a higher being…in the order of things.
Thanks for getting back to me. Ahh OK, I didn’t realise the refugees were from elsewhere. I thought they might be connected to the camps in Nan.
Yep, the camp at Mae Jarim was very real. If you want to see what its like now, we went to Sob Thuang in August . The lady on the right (2nd photo) is Shiela, the private investigator / researcher who wanted to know the details about life in the camps.
One thing that surprised me at the time was the fact that my friend Yut (the guy who organised the trip and posted the story) found it very difficult to get information from anyone about where the camps were (some people said that there weren’t, and have bever been any refugees/refugee camps there.) It made me realise that its not just westerners who have to deal with the problem of people withholding info / giving incorrect answers rather than being honest and saying ‘I don’t know…’
The people who were in the camps, who opted to stay in Thailand (some married Thais etc…) rather than go home/go to a 3rd country such as the US, ended up staying around Mae Jarim / Sob Yao.
That area that lies between Nan and the Thai-Laos border has it’s own ‘secret’ (many people in Nan do not know about, or maybe aren’t interested in it..) history which, when I lived there I found fascinating…
Thanks for the references. Will try and dig them out.
“Change is not for this country, it never has been and it never will be.”
Lots of people have said that before with equal conviction: the Afrikaners of South Africa, the Soviets, the proponents of the 1000-year Reich, the Romans, the IRA, the Spartans, Liverpoool F.C, and most Americans in 2011. The list of “fallable infallables” goes on…
It’s always hard to imagine how the sacrifices of individuals can possibly make a difference. And, indeed, as individuals they often don’t. But collectively they can… and sometimes do.
Hopefully, the Thais will learn from their own Buddhist philosophy: Change is the only constant in life.
Agree with WLH#1 for the PT’s stance toward Art.112 – anywhere on earth, one can’t stop a political party from playing its politics!
The Thai judicial system is one of the clunkiest by today’s global standard. Applications, enforcement, and interpretation of laws in many quarters (particularly in political domain) severely violate the norm of civil rights and human dignity.
Thaksin is no doubt a brilliant tycoon and the best PM Thailand ever had but he is still very far from being a political revolutionist. The majority of problems he faces today is partly attributed to his indecisive approach toward the long established power, which deems to be on the opposite side of the current democratic movement.
And to be on track with the article, “Long Live Somsak the Lion Hearth”
Kerrie, the ones in the holding fence (whatever to call it) in 1990 were from Kamphaengphet, most likely Khlonglan district. I am slowly finding out some things, and some will be in a book I am finishing. For now, I’d say your best bet is to interview people in Pa Klang (a one time resettlement of Mien, Hmong, and most likely others such as Khmu and Thai Lue). Camps in Nan were at Sob Thuang (Mae Jarim) and at Nam Yao. The Nam Yao camp burned down in 1981 (I think). Both camps were quite real. Chapter 18 in Martin Stuart-Fox (ed., 1982) Contemporary Laos (U Queensland Press) is on the camps, written by Bernard J. Van-es-Beeck. He states that Sob Thuang was 40 km southeast of Nan town (with ten tousand people in 1977), Nam Yao 30 km southeast of Pua (thirteen thousand people in 1977).
Hope this is some help.
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Support for Somsak at Nang Lerng
nattavud pimpa
I’m not a leader in Thailand, so it’s not up to me to lead or provide the direction you crave. My comment was just that – a comment. Such is free speech. It was framed in response to Enrico’s comment, and deliberately limited to that reference. But if my comment happens to inspire change in some small way in some remote corner of the universe, then so be it. As I said in my response to Enrico, it’s amazing what the collective opinions of individuals can sometimes achieve. But I have no aspirations to direct that collective. My own involvement in Thai affairs is limited as an interested observer, with some personal stake in the outcome. I have no aspirations to activism.
I see no leaders in Thailand who are capable of providing the direction you desire. They are corrupt, self-serving and often, to my mind, stupid – nothing more than dumb brutes enslaved to their own base desires. I am appalled by them and those who serve them. No doubt some great leaders will emerge, as they often do in desperate situations. Unfortunately, Thailand makes a bad habit of locking them up or exporting the best ones.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
John #16, if we were to talk about Communism in this region, it goes without saying that it must involve the US.
IMO, The rise in popularity of the institute coincides with the threat of Communism. And the royal army receives significant training and backing to help ‘stabilize the region’. Never mind that they decided to stabilize their seat instead with the blood of the people.
With their increase power, reintroducing ‘tradition’ is a piece of cake.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
HRK
The answer may lie in the periods growth of ‘communism’ in the region. The reintroduction of the practice in my view was aimed at the military first with the flow on effects to the broader public. The “neo-feudal” nationalism that evolved has served the elite well in maintaining their control over the country. They have always had influence at a high military level and as long as there was some sort of pay off the practice remains intact today.
Northern Thailand’s specter of eviction
Kerrie, thanks, this is very interesting. Do send a note via email since the issue is part too-esoteric and part too-sensitive for the NM public
If tomorrow never comes…
Poor Nattavud, he seems to be in a perpetual state of defensiveness regarding the sorry state of present day Thailand. Let me try to help him understand.
Farangs who live in Bangkok and Thailand are more interested in the Thailand situation than the Singapore situation, or for that matter the Brunei situation or Sri Lanka situation. After all they live and work in Thailand.
Farangs who look at the present sorry state of Thailand are interested in following informative blogs and making comments as they pretty much see Thailand as playing way below its potential at the moment.
They have a hard time understanding and accepting the regressive policies of the present Thailand government in regard to free speech, unlimited commenting on blogs, freely available unblocked websites, locking up people for their opinions and thoughts and writings.
They wonder why the military and government of a country with so much potential is blocking the majority of their people’s progress upwards, their hopes and their aspirations. Why they are throwing out national elections one time after another and using Army snipers to shoot hundreds of people who dare to object.
They see a country with millions of impoverished and very under-educated people in a dysfunctional state and they often have Thai friends or family who are suffering under the present stratified and rigid system of military and super elite control and dominance which seems to be based on these very few wanting to keep the entire output of Thailand for themselves.
Their curiosity and interest in Thailand is based on their hope that one day, Thailand and the Thai people can find a way to discard all the horrible, bad and downright evil stuff that is going on in present-day Thailand and find their way to a brighter, more hopeful place.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
As an American, this is one of the most abhorrent practices in the Kingdom.
Others include sending refugees to their deaths and killing peaceful protesters with snipers.
Amazing Thailand.
Support for Somsak at Nang Lerng
Stuart (c9) – and possibly others – you might not be aware that “Enrico Damanche” writes posts here that are very much tongue firmly in cheek.
They’re intended as a satirical take on particular points of view. As with all good satire, they can be unnervingly close to the real thing. I often read posts here that – after some reflection – I conclude are the real thing….. but, believe me, it’s sometimes very difficult to be sure.
Support for Somsak at Nang Lerng
Stuart et al,
Agree that change is the only constant in life. However, the process of change can be painful and we, human being, need directions when it comes to change.
Your statement that hope the Thais will learn from their Buddhist philosophy does not add to any direction. I would hope for clear leadership and directions when it comes to all forms of societal changes.
If tomorrow never comes…
Hi Nuomi,
No worries.
For updates on what’s happening in Malaysia, just go to the Malaysia’s Dilemma section.
This video is just to highlight the very talented First Lady of Malaysia and also the fact that tomorrow may indeed not come for her and her husband. The way he is managing the country is very much like how Abhisit is running Thailand. Malaysia, is likely to become a failed-state soon.
If tomorrow never comes…
Dear Greg –
I apologise for a countryman’s accidental hijacking of this thread. Nevertheless, I admit to being clueless about Malaysia’s current state of affairs, and would very much appreciate a simple expanation of what this youtube is all about. Thanks.
Khun Nattavud –
I believe the reason why the few people you highlighted (eg Nick) are not interested in the going-ons in Singapore is very simple. In fact as simple and as innocent as the very honest and basic fact that I like blackforest cake and I do not like coffee cake. As a result, I am just not interested in making any comments on the quality of any coffee cakes since my lack of interest infer a lack of knowledge and most likely may not be able to make a fair, informed comments. And – I would be upset with anyone trying to shove a coffee cake down my throat to force me to make a comment via coercion or insinuation or by any other means other than my total willingness to make superficial polite statements which I hope would not offend any expert coffee cake commentors.
Re Singapore Elections
The above being said, this election really is one of the most interesting as far as I remember.
First is the fact that almost every constituency is contested short of LKY’s.
I am most impressed that LHL actually increase the number of single wards – from Singapore perspective, a big step towards giving the opposition more chances of winning seats.
The opposition actually faces the PAP head on, with WP head leaving HG behind with his team of strongest candidates to take on no less than Aljunied and GY. I am almost most impressed by the graciousness and maturity of NS taking on GCT in MP, losing by a mere 5%.
Sad is loss of Potong Pasir by a very narrow margin of only 70 votes.
Sad is also loss for George Yeo, really one of the very few better ministers in Singapore.
Fantastic is the fact that oppposition won their first GRC! They actually won in spite of going against George Yeo!
I could go on and on… but this is really the wrong thread.
If Andrew would post the link to the following youtube, perhaps we can have proper Singapore politics and conspiracy theory discussion there.
Heres the link – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v53_cx1gC9I&feature=player_embedd
Darth Vader and PAP is possibly one of the better tubes made.
I will try to send link to good blog articles from popular writers such as Mr. Brown. Cheers!
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
I remember that I read that prostration was re-introduced during the Sarit period due to popular demand of the people. They wanted to follow the old ways to pay respect to their beloved king. I tried to find the reference but without success yet. It might be that in one of the writings of Sulak there is a reference to it.
As Sarit was not necessarily a person open for popular demands and “peoples participation”, the explanation remains unconvincing. Why was it then re-introduced?
On one hand, the royalists (especially the Pramote brothers etc., see as well their involvement in blaming Pridi for the death of king Mahidol) were able to make a come back, although still limited. The royalist profile still remained limited during the following Phibul years. Sarit then extended their role. On the other hand, the elite arising after the 1932 revolution followed a cultural programme of nationalist modernization, civilisation and progress. Phibul used the example of Mussolini (rather then Hitler), as in Italy the monarchy was maintained, at least for the time being. In the long run, however, nationalism of the Phibul kind implied popularism and a degree of peoples participation. A republic would be more conductive for such a nationalism and form of government. The arising bureaucratic/military/Thycoon elite that consolidated their power during the late years of Phibul and especially under Sarit needed a new ideology and cultural programme. For them a new-feudal programme basing itself on invented traditions, which could only be monarchic fitted far better, because in such a frame ritualised nationalism is de-connected from peoples participation and popular demands. Such a “neo-feudal” nationalism defines obligations of the people to love the king and nation, without allowing for rights to the nation. In other words, it turns into a rather one sided love affair, in which the lover lies at the feet of the beloved, just like in a proper soap opera.
The Buddha was bald
Eisel, interesting article but in your responses you insist on pali citations etc etc from readers – why then did you write an article on a website where you knew it was unlikely people know pali? Seems to me most points made by readers here are methodological anyway and about GENERAL approaches to texts and religion. If they are wrong about their points, just say so and explain why. Plus, aren’t people allowed to have a general discussion, especially on an internet forum like this, without footnotes and references? Would you give a conference and refuse to answer a question unless someone knew pali or gave you a text reference?
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
Mahamekian -10
I think if you look for documentation around Sarit time you should be hitting with one eventually.
Support for Somsak at Nang Lerng
Video of Somsak at Nang Lerng (mix of English and Thai) is available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fjo0FrxLro
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
to Mahamekian, well, we know that during Phibun/Phibul’s time (he was anti-monarchist) he reinforced the abolishment of prostration (see also Andreas Sturm in Michell Young’s new book “Nationalism in a global era…”); also Thak Chaloemtiarana (1979, “Thailand: the politics of despotic paternalism”) talks about old royal ceremonies and protocols reintroduced or reinvented during Sarit’s time. No doubt historians can expose some relevant social content from the archives. Indeed, the reintroduction of prostration during Sarit’s time was part and parcel of bringing the monarchy back to the front corresponding to a reactionary response to look backward and to the absolute power and authority that this can bring over society (and a “Thai-style democracy”); the king as a higher being…in the order of things.
Support for Somsak at Nang Lerng
‘Change is the only constant in life’.
Thai history illustrates that perfectly.
Northern Thailand’s specter of eviction
Hi,
Thanks for getting back to me. Ahh OK, I didn’t realise the refugees were from elsewhere. I thought they might be connected to the camps in Nan.
Yep, the camp at Mae Jarim was very real. If you want to see what its like now, we went to Sob Thuang in August . The lady on the right (2nd photo) is Shiela, the private investigator / researcher who wanted to know the details about life in the camps.
http://www.nan2day.com/forum/index.php?topic=6500.0+
One thing that surprised me at the time was the fact that my friend Yut (the guy who organised the trip and posted the story) found it very difficult to get information from anyone about where the camps were (some people said that there weren’t, and have bever been any refugees/refugee camps there.) It made me realise that its not just westerners who have to deal with the problem of people withholding info / giving incorrect answers rather than being honest and saying ‘I don’t know…’
The people who were in the camps, who opted to stay in Thailand (some married Thais etc…) rather than go home/go to a 3rd country such as the US, ended up staying around Mae Jarim / Sob Yao.
That area that lies between Nan and the Thai-Laos border has it’s own ‘secret’ (many people in Nan do not know about, or maybe aren’t interested in it..) history which, when I lived there I found fascinating…
Thanks for the references. Will try and dig them out.
Support for Somsak at Nang Lerng
Enrico
“Change is not for this country, it never has been and it never will be.”
Lots of people have said that before with equal conviction: the Afrikaners of South Africa, the Soviets, the proponents of the 1000-year Reich, the Romans, the IRA, the Spartans, Liverpoool F.C, and most Americans in 2011. The list of “fallable infallables” goes on…
It’s always hard to imagine how the sacrifices of individuals can possibly make a difference. And, indeed, as individuals they often don’t. But collectively they can… and sometimes do.
Hopefully, the Thais will learn from their own Buddhist philosophy: Change is the only constant in life.
Thanapol on lese majeste
Agree with WLH#1 for the PT’s stance toward Art.112 – anywhere on earth, one can’t stop a political party from playing its politics!
The Thai judicial system is one of the clunkiest by today’s global standard. Applications, enforcement, and interpretation of laws in many quarters (particularly in political domain) severely violate the norm of civil rights and human dignity.
Thaksin is no doubt a brilliant tycoon and the best PM Thailand ever had but he is still very far from being a political revolutionist. The majority of problems he faces today is partly attributed to his indecisive approach toward the long established power, which deems to be on the opposite side of the current democratic movement.
And to be on track with the article, “Long Live Somsak the Lion Hearth”
-rk
Northern Thailand’s specter of eviction
Kerrie, the ones in the holding fence (whatever to call it) in 1990 were from Kamphaengphet, most likely Khlonglan district. I am slowly finding out some things, and some will be in a book I am finishing. For now, I’d say your best bet is to interview people in Pa Klang (a one time resettlement of Mien, Hmong, and most likely others such as Khmu and Thai Lue). Camps in Nan were at Sob Thuang (Mae Jarim) and at Nam Yao. The Nam Yao camp burned down in 1981 (I think). Both camps were quite real. Chapter 18 in Martin Stuart-Fox (ed., 1982) Contemporary Laos (U Queensland Press) is on the camps, written by Bernard J. Van-es-Beeck. He states that Sob Thuang was 40 km southeast of Nan town (with ten tousand people in 1977), Nam Yao 30 km southeast of Pua (thirteen thousand people in 1977).
Hope this is some help.