“Does anyone with a brain think that the Red-shirts would recruit someone like Jeff Savage? Please…” – Simon
Let me quote what Jeff Savage said : “”We’re gonna smash the fucking Central [World] plaza to shit. We’re gonna steal everything out of it and burn the fucker down. Trust me, get pictures of that fucker. We’re gonna loot everything, gold, watches, everything, and then we’re gonna burn it to the ground,” he says in the video, shot just days before the shopping centre was torched.
If memory serves me, Briton Jeff Savage had been living (with a Thai Isaarn wife) in Thailand for nine years before his arrest. And Jeff Savage’s hatred rant above only differ a slight shade from the hatred speeches of Nattawut, Arisman & Co. who were inciting their Red followers to carry petrol-filled bottles to torch Bangkok to the ground.
But according to the high quality logic of Tarrin(see ‘Thai Monarchy and Wikileaks’ #62), while arson committed on 1st day of threat is ‘terror’, an arson act committed months later after threats is ‘not terror’ . . .
What other qualities are required anyway Simon other than professed ‘love for Thaksin’ to be embraced as a Red Shirt?
Well done Tom Hoy. Hit the nail on the head. AI-Zawacki have simply ignored all cases of LM. They do this for political reasons and the claim of neutrality is nonsense.
As a donor to AI, I have asked several times why the organization does not take up LM in Thailand and have not ever received even the courtesy of a reply. So no more donations.
The rate of talent migration grew at a rate of 4.2 per cent between 2000 and 2010, with Singapore having the most number of Malaysian tertiary-level graduates at 121,662, followed by Australia at 51,556 and the US with 34,045.
The Nation really comes up with some howlers. I’ll just focus on Fact 4: “Everybody seems to be fond of talking about the Thai “elite”…”,
In response: the ultranationalist Pornpimol “Pauline” Kanchanalak is in gestational denial (see also http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/royalism-as-savior/). Readers may recall Pauline being charged by the US Govt with a scheme to disguise illegal hard money contributions and soft money donations from foreign nationals and corporations to national and state political committees back in 1999 (United States Court of Appeals FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT – 192 F.3d 1037). OK so forget the past as Pauline would not do with others. It is irrelevant. So for her
edification please read the following because you have trouble identifying the Thai “elite”, just as many elites have problem in self-identification. Others in Thai society don’t have problems identifying them. The term “elites” refers to early and persisting bureaucratic notions of ruling elites/aristocracy (referred to as “amaat”, or р╕нр╕│р╕бр╕▓р╕Хр╕вр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕в, Amatayatippatai, who were close to the monarch) that see the nation-state as a resource consisting of summit and base in which their established network benefits are central to the whole system. This system is constituted as an organic social hierarchy which fits neatly and obediently into a whole sourced in an early functional division between the nobility or lords (р╕Щр╕▓р╕в), and the commoners/servants (р╣Др╕Юр╕гр╣И). The latter are subaltern and consist today of both the urban proletariat and landed peasantry. Urbanisation and the growth of the middle-class, modernity and a nouveau riche in the post-war years complicated this twofold social arrangement…
The amaat are owners of cultural capital further complicated by conservative, traditional and new finance under neo-liberalism and globalisation. They are financial monopolists in control of cement, banking, imports etc., (hence also their hatred of Thaksin’s neoliberal Populism). It is elements connected to emergent middleclass interests which flourished since the 1980s and the start of impressive economic growth concentrated in the metropolis, especially that benefiting conservative urban Sino-Thai (ex-compradore Chinese) families. This was also a period of uneven development. The amaat are a social arrangement that may be linked back to the reforms to the feudal (sakdina [р╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕▓]) system during Fifth Reign reforms (King Chulalongkorn (1853–1910) and its continuing institutional and familial reverberations . Red shirts would argue that the amaat regime is the real obstacle to the development of democracy in Thailand and work against its interests…Where is Pauline’s interest?
Amnesty mentioned the closed trial but then didn’t mention the resulting prison sentence, the denial of proper medical treatment and the denial of bail even though the original trial and verdict have been overthrown. At all. Anywhere. Ever.
If there was something I could say to give AI’s stance balance I would. But there isn’t. Their failures in Thailand are shameful and Ben Zawacki has quite rightly lost the respect and confidence of many people. He should either resign or be moved on.
Sad but hardly surprising in view of the recent Amaat public relations campaign. They quietly remove players from the tableau before the election media machine amplifies their “unreasonable” voice or their influence (Chavalit, Chalerm) jeopardizes the planned design too much. I know nothing about K. Somyos but his sudden arrest fits a pattern. Quite Chinese, actually.
It’s all for the sake of social harmony and reconciliation, of course.
I’d be interested to know what Paul Handley has to say about this post.
I’m surprised that no one here has yet pointed out how many errors there are at the beginning of “The King Never Smiles.” I don’t know about the rest of the book as I have not read it. One of the reasons I have only read the beginning is the multitude of strange falsehoods in the beginning. It has eroded my confidence in the author.
1. It is untrue that the king never smiles. (Alan did point out this one)
Absurd or not, it is untrue. Isn’t it? So why is this statement the title of the book?
2. It is untrue that that no official photographs show him smiling –there is even a numbered end note that contradicts the text that it is attached to.
Official photographs of the king smiling are commonly displayed in Thailand.
The king was born in Massachusetts, USA, but not in Brookline. He was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts as a Google search will tell you.
3. Thai Buddhist monks are not allowed to prostrate themselves in front of the king. If monks have done so, then it would be remarkable indeed, and very surprising. I don’t believe it. Does Paul Handley have any evidence? Who said so?
4. If the monks really did that, there should be some citation if only in a numbered endnote.
The questions as I see it are these and I’ll put my answers to them:
What is Amnesty’s job? To plead for the release of prisoners of conscience, whether it be one prisoner or thousands, and to agitate against the conditions which allow prisoners of conscience to be incarcerated.
Were the laws under which Da Torpedo was charged and convicted commensurate with the right to free expression? I think not.
Did Da Torpedo receive a free and open trial? Definitely not.
Nick thinks that Amnesty needs to proceed tactically because the issue is divisive and there could be all sorts of consequences from agitating for her release. He is right of course. But none of us can predict the future and it might equally be the case that agitation for Da Torpedo’s release would inhibit the government and army from further repressive measures.
And it might even be successful in releasing Da Torpedo
Amnesty’s strength and great claim has always been that they operate with regard to principle not political expediency. They have campaigned for the release of prisoners whose convictions and so-called crimes are communist, capitalist, democratic, religious, republican, monarchist, whatever. And against all sorts of regimes. The central focus of Amnesty’s work has always been protection of the individual, not the reform of social or political systems or the advancement of a particular social or political agenda.
Meanwhile, one person, Da Torpedo (and others too), suffer in prison. Amnesty should uphold their principles by fighting for her. They don’t need to proclaim their support for her ideas, they don’t need to think of her as someone who might have to suffer now in order that others may not need to later.
They need to think of her as the suffering individual that she is. That’s how Amnesty has worked in the past and that’s what it should do now.
As a farang living in Chiangmai, Thailand I am very disturbed by not only Lese Majeste abuses by everyone but how the people in Cm are keeping their heads down because of suppression and as yet unsolved murders of the local radio station. Police state he was carrying drugs but everyone who knew him has stated he had nothing to do with drugs. Another case of murder squads? There does not appear in public anyone challenging 112. Friends tell me that the people of Cm are keeping their heads down until the big fight comes whatever that means. At a rally held in Cm on the 30th April I could not see one leaflet, T shirt or badge challenging 112. Maybe it takes a mad farang who believes in freedom of speech to show the people how to fight back.
To everyone ever suffering under 112 I only have praise for their courage. Let us kill 112 and destroy its supporters politically.
Nick #53, that’s because it IS a religion. That’s why no amount of reasoning will explain the LM madness. Everything is based on belief, it makes everything possible. One of which is stoning someone to death for their sins.
If there was greater external pressure over the abuse of Lese Majeste.. by, for instance, AI International pulling out of Thailand, do you think this would exacerbate the polemic domestically? I don’t expect you to answer that, as an answer would be wading into dangerous territory.
I’d imagine one relatively small organisation (in Thailand) like AI pulling out of the country wouldn’t have any effect on the contractions of opression that you refer to. However, internationally AI International pulling out of Thailand would create major headlines. Ben Zawacki could have his face plastered all over BBC World etc, and people would confuse him with Moby, and they’d believe Moby was saying bad things about the Thai government. People would listen. The publicity about the LM law would have to be sustained. Tourism would be effected. Pressure amplified through public diplomacy. Maybe those wielding the beating stick would tone down the promotion of LM to Thais. Or, if we return to the polemic paradigm, perhaps Thailand would become more isolated. Suicide for the Thai economy. And its elites abusing this law. Of course, a very superficial analysis. But that’s where we, outside, have to exert pressure in my opinion: the national wallet. Playing on the economic polemic would be more corrosive to the oppression than, say, banning a talk with Robert Amsterdam. I’m not suggesting we touch on deep seated emotions and feelings of the people, but more indirectly put pressure on elites who propagate the peoples’ deep seated feelings for their own gain.
Oh! But then AI couldn’t carry out it’s important investigative research and visiting prisoners of conscience (like Da Torpedo) unlike the myriad of other human rights organisations.
I should not be quite so supercilious, but I am fairly cynical about things. Anyway, just some thoughts on your response.
I also don’t send supporting document because I just know to apply at 20th April.
🙂
Whatever I am just much interested in. But I am also just poor man can’t even afford to attend.
Without a fair trial to test the evidence in an open court there is no way whatsoever that AI can come to the conclusion that Da T is “guilty” of any offence never mind one that puts her in jail for 18years.
Yet, Ben Zawacki, based solely on what the MFA told him condemned her and then told the ambassadors she was “guilty” and should be completely abandoned. That is a pathetic and shameful situation for both Zawacki and AI to be in.
If AI are restricted in their work in Thailand because of 112 they need to tell people. Not hide, like cowards, behind excuses designed only to protect Ben Zawacki’s position and then refuse, point blank, to answer any questions regarding this position. Except in this instance Ben Zawacki actually came out and said “we can see why” Da T is imprisoned (in a closed court, where no evidence can be tested). He actually supported her conviction (based on a closed trial when she cant test the evidence) and her imprisonment, both privately and publicly.
And, despite all that why hasn’t Zawacki been to visit Da T even when she had the terribly painful jaw infection or when she was being singled out for special treatment? Or maybe he “can see why” that is happening to her as well?
My “non-issue” comment is the other way around. If Zawacki wasn’t so obviously partial in Thailand his Malaysia intervention would’ve been a non-issue. There is a lot of bad feeling building against this guy and AI – and plenty of it is coming from Thai AI members and other human rights’ activists.
Les: I used to be annoyed we had a foreign head of state, and favoured the simple republican model where a pariamentary appointed GG became the head of state (but not the direct election model)
Now I reckon we’ve got quite a good set up – we get the stability of the constitutional monarchy system without the cost of the pomp & ceremony, and if they dared to interfere in our politics they’d be gone.
“I think that it’s not so much about what’s achievable immediately for Da Torpedo, but our collective desire to see greater protest to end the draconian use of LM?”
And that is one of the problems and difficulties of the matter – greater public protest can quite easily result in the opposite – and increased use of LM, and increased sentences against the accused and convicted. A polarization of Thai society in regards of LM and naturally related issues (which we begin to see now) is potentially disastrous in ways only religious conflicts can be. This is not just a matter of ratio, but of deep seated believes and emotions.
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Nostitz on latest lese majeste arrest
C4. 2bkk has a lot of parts of translated red publications including Voice of Thaksin. A little off topic
Red Shirt leaders at FCCT
“Does anyone with a brain think that the Red-shirts would recruit someone like Jeff Savage? Please…” – Simon
Let me quote what Jeff Savage said : “”We’re gonna smash the fucking Central [World] plaza to shit. We’re gonna steal everything out of it and burn the fucker down. Trust me, get pictures of that fucker. We’re gonna loot everything, gold, watches, everything, and then we’re gonna burn it to the ground,” he says in the video, shot just days before the shopping centre was torched.
If memory serves me, Briton Jeff Savage had been living (with a Thai Isaarn wife) in Thailand for nine years before his arrest. And Jeff Savage’s hatred rant above only differ a slight shade from the hatred speeches of Nattawut, Arisman & Co. who were inciting their Red followers to carry petrol-filled bottles to torch Bangkok to the ground.
But according to the high quality logic of Tarrin(see ‘Thai Monarchy and Wikileaks’ #62), while arson committed on 1st day of threat is ‘terror’, an arson act committed months later after threats is ‘not terror’ . . .
What other qualities are required anyway Simon other than professed ‘love for Thaksin’ to be embraced as a Red Shirt?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Well done Tom Hoy. Hit the nail on the head. AI-Zawacki have simply ignored all cases of LM. They do this for political reasons and the claim of neutrality is nonsense.
As a donor to AI, I have asked several times why the organization does not take up LM in Thailand and have not ever received even the courtesy of a reply. So no more donations.
Why Malaysians leave Malaysia
– Extracted from Lee Wei Lian, “A snapshot of Malaysia’s talent outflow” The Malaysian Insider, 2 May, 2011
The Nation vs WSJ
The Nation really comes up with some howlers. I’ll just focus on Fact 4: “Everybody seems to be fond of talking about the Thai “elite”…”,
In response: the ultranationalist Pornpimol “Pauline” Kanchanalak is in gestational denial (see also http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/royalism-as-savior/). Readers may recall Pauline being charged by the US Govt with a scheme to disguise illegal hard money contributions and soft money donations from foreign nationals and corporations to national and state political committees back in 1999 (United States Court of Appeals FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT – 192 F.3d 1037). OK so forget the past as Pauline would not do with others. It is irrelevant. So for her
edification please read the following because you have trouble identifying the Thai “elite”, just as many elites have problem in self-identification. Others in Thai society don’t have problems identifying them. The term “elites” refers to early and persisting bureaucratic notions of ruling elites/aristocracy (referred to as “amaat”, or р╕нр╕│р╕бр╕▓р╕Хр╕вр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Хр╕в, Amatayatippatai, who were close to the monarch) that see the nation-state as a resource consisting of summit and base in which their established network benefits are central to the whole system. This system is constituted as an organic social hierarchy which fits neatly and obediently into a whole sourced in an early functional division between the nobility or lords (р╕Щр╕▓р╕в), and the commoners/servants (р╣Др╕Юр╕гр╣И). The latter are subaltern and consist today of both the urban proletariat and landed peasantry. Urbanisation and the growth of the middle-class, modernity and a nouveau riche in the post-war years complicated this twofold social arrangement…
The amaat are owners of cultural capital further complicated by conservative, traditional and new finance under neo-liberalism and globalisation. They are financial monopolists in control of cement, banking, imports etc., (hence also their hatred of Thaksin’s neoliberal Populism). It is elements connected to emergent middleclass interests which flourished since the 1980s and the start of impressive economic growth concentrated in the metropolis, especially that benefiting conservative urban Sino-Thai (ex-compradore Chinese) families. This was also a period of uneven development. The amaat are a social arrangement that may be linked back to the reforms to the feudal (sakdina [р╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕▓]) system during Fifth Reign reforms (King Chulalongkorn (1853–1910) and its continuing institutional and familial reverberations . Red shirts would argue that the amaat regime is the real obstacle to the development of democracy in Thailand and work against its interests…Where is Pauline’s interest?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick
Amnesty mentioned the closed trial but then didn’t mention the resulting prison sentence, the denial of proper medical treatment and the denial of bail even though the original trial and verdict have been overthrown. At all. Anywhere. Ever.
If there was something I could say to give AI’s stance balance I would. But there isn’t. Their failures in Thailand are shameful and Ben Zawacki has quite rightly lost the respect and confidence of many people. He should either resign or be moved on.
Andrew
Nostitz on latest lese majeste arrest
Sad but hardly surprising in view of the recent Amaat public relations campaign. They quietly remove players from the tableau before the election media machine amplifies their “unreasonable” voice or their influence (Chavalit, Chalerm) jeopardizes the planned design too much. I know nothing about K. Somyos but his sudden arrest fits a pattern. Quite Chinese, actually.
It’s all for the sake of social harmony and reconciliation, of course.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Andrew,
for the sake of balance it has to be mentioned that AI has issues a statement regarding the closed trial:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/thailand-closed-trial-threatens-justice-20090625
Paul Handley replies to comments
I’d be interested to know what Paul Handley has to say about this post.
I’m surprised that no one here has yet pointed out how many errors there are at the beginning of “The King Never Smiles.” I don’t know about the rest of the book as I have not read it. One of the reasons I have only read the beginning is the multitude of strange falsehoods in the beginning. It has eroded my confidence in the author.
1. It is untrue that the king never smiles. (Alan did point out this one)
Absurd or not, it is untrue. Isn’t it? So why is this statement the title of the book?
2. It is untrue that that no official photographs show him smiling –there is even a numbered end note that contradicts the text that it is attached to.
Official photographs of the king smiling are commonly displayed in Thailand.
The king was born in Massachusetts, USA, but not in Brookline. He was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts as a Google search will tell you.
3. Thai Buddhist monks are not allowed to prostrate themselves in front of the king. If monks have done so, then it would be remarkable indeed, and very surprising. I don’t believe it. Does Paul Handley have any evidence? Who said so?
4. If the monks really did that, there should be some citation if only in a numbered endnote.
I believe that I have listed four errors here.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
The questions as I see it are these and I’ll put my answers to them:
What is Amnesty’s job? To plead for the release of prisoners of conscience, whether it be one prisoner or thousands, and to agitate against the conditions which allow prisoners of conscience to be incarcerated.
Were the laws under which Da Torpedo was charged and convicted commensurate with the right to free expression? I think not.
Did Da Torpedo receive a free and open trial? Definitely not.
Nick thinks that Amnesty needs to proceed tactically because the issue is divisive and there could be all sorts of consequences from agitating for her release. He is right of course. But none of us can predict the future and it might equally be the case that agitation for Da Torpedo’s release would inhibit the government and army from further repressive measures.
And it might even be successful in releasing Da Torpedo
Amnesty’s strength and great claim has always been that they operate with regard to principle not political expediency. They have campaigned for the release of prisoners whose convictions and so-called crimes are communist, capitalist, democratic, religious, republican, monarchist, whatever. And against all sorts of regimes. The central focus of Amnesty’s work has always been protection of the individual, not the reform of social or political systems or the advancement of a particular social or political agenda.
Meanwhile, one person, Da Torpedo (and others too), suffer in prison. Amnesty should uphold their principles by fighting for her. They don’t need to proclaim their support for her ideas, they don’t need to think of her as someone who might have to suffer now in order that others may not need to later.
They need to think of her as the suffering individual that she is. That’s how Amnesty has worked in the past and that’s what it should do now.
Nostitz on latest lese majeste arrest
As a farang living in Chiangmai, Thailand I am very disturbed by not only Lese Majeste abuses by everyone but how the people in Cm are keeping their heads down because of suppression and as yet unsolved murders of the local radio station. Police state he was carrying drugs but everyone who knew him has stated he had nothing to do with drugs. Another case of murder squads? There does not appear in public anyone challenging 112. Friends tell me that the people of Cm are keeping their heads down until the big fight comes whatever that means. At a rally held in Cm on the 30th April I could not see one leaflet, T shirt or badge challenging 112. Maybe it takes a mad farang who believes in freedom of speech to show the people how to fight back.
To everyone ever suffering under 112 I only have praise for their courage. Let us kill 112 and destroy its supporters politically.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick #53, that’s because it IS a religion. That’s why no amount of reasoning will explain the LM madness. Everything is based on belief, it makes everything possible. One of which is stoning someone to death for their sins.
Nostitz on latest lese majeste arrest
The Nation seems to want their readers to believe that Somyos was captured while trying to flee to Cambodia. Honest newspaper, aren’t they?
Nostitz on latest lese majeste arrest
Thanks for reporting this Nick.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick,
If there was greater external pressure over the abuse of Lese Majeste.. by, for instance, AI International pulling out of Thailand, do you think this would exacerbate the polemic domestically? I don’t expect you to answer that, as an answer would be wading into dangerous territory.
I’d imagine one relatively small organisation (in Thailand) like AI pulling out of the country wouldn’t have any effect on the contractions of opression that you refer to. However, internationally AI International pulling out of Thailand would create major headlines. Ben Zawacki could have his face plastered all over BBC World etc, and people would confuse him with Moby, and they’d believe Moby was saying bad things about the Thai government. People would listen. The publicity about the LM law would have to be sustained. Tourism would be effected. Pressure amplified through public diplomacy. Maybe those wielding the beating stick would tone down the promotion of LM to Thais. Or, if we return to the polemic paradigm, perhaps Thailand would become more isolated. Suicide for the Thai economy. And its elites abusing this law. Of course, a very superficial analysis. But that’s where we, outside, have to exert pressure in my opinion: the national wallet. Playing on the economic polemic would be more corrosive to the oppression than, say, banning a talk with Robert Amsterdam. I’m not suggesting we touch on deep seated emotions and feelings of the people, but more indirectly put pressure on elites who propagate the peoples’ deep seated feelings for their own gain.
Oh! But then AI couldn’t carry out it’s important investigative research and visiting prisoners of conscience (like Da Torpedo) unlike the myriad of other human rights organisations.
I should not be quite so supercilious, but I am fairly cynical about things. Anyway, just some thoughts on your response.
Student scholarships for ANU Asia Pacific Week
I also don’t send supporting document because I just know to apply at 20th April.
🙂
Whatever I am just much interested in. But I am also just poor man can’t even afford to attend.
Has anybody else noticed…
Here it is JFL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmEf8E1EK_U
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick
Without a fair trial to test the evidence in an open court there is no way whatsoever that AI can come to the conclusion that Da T is “guilty” of any offence never mind one that puts her in jail for 18years.
Yet, Ben Zawacki, based solely on what the MFA told him condemned her and then told the ambassadors she was “guilty” and should be completely abandoned. That is a pathetic and shameful situation for both Zawacki and AI to be in.
If AI are restricted in their work in Thailand because of 112 they need to tell people. Not hide, like cowards, behind excuses designed only to protect Ben Zawacki’s position and then refuse, point blank, to answer any questions regarding this position. Except in this instance Ben Zawacki actually came out and said “we can see why” Da T is imprisoned (in a closed court, where no evidence can be tested). He actually supported her conviction (based on a closed trial when she cant test the evidence) and her imprisonment, both privately and publicly.
And, despite all that why hasn’t Zawacki been to visit Da T even when she had the terribly painful jaw infection or when she was being singled out for special treatment? Or maybe he “can see why” that is happening to her as well?
My “non-issue” comment is the other way around. If Zawacki wasn’t so obviously partial in Thailand his Malaysia intervention would’ve been a non-issue. There is a lot of bad feeling building against this guy and AI – and plenty of it is coming from Thai AI members and other human rights’ activists.
In my view AI need to move him on.
Andrew
Intimidation of Somsak Jeamteerasakul
Les: I used to be annoyed we had a foreign head of state, and favoured the simple republican model where a pariamentary appointed GG became the head of state (but not the direct election model)
Now I reckon we’ve got quite a good set up – we get the stability of the constitutional monarchy system without the cost of the pomp & ceremony, and if they dared to interfere in our politics they’d be gone.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
“It’s Martino”:
You said:
“I think that it’s not so much about what’s achievable immediately for Da Torpedo, but our collective desire to see greater protest to end the draconian use of LM?”
And that is one of the problems and difficulties of the matter – greater public protest can quite easily result in the opposite – and increased use of LM, and increased sentences against the accused and convicted. A polarization of Thai society in regards of LM and naturally related issues (which we begin to see now) is potentially disastrous in ways only religious conflicts can be. This is not just a matter of ratio, but of deep seated believes and emotions.