In lieu of documentary evidence I would suggest that certain NM contributors, along with Robert Amsterdam, should try to travel in and of Suwannabhumi and see if anything happens.
Arthurson. That is hilarious. You mean to say you actually fell for Thai Visa’s April Fools Day joke about Thailand planning to ban foreigners over 50 from marrying Thai citizens?
Nationalism and racism are always cheap tricks available to Thai politicians of all stripes because Thais (and other Asians) are not educated to understand that racism is actually demeaning to the racists. Thaksin was no different with his attacks on the IMF for bailing out the bankrupt Thai economy and against the UN for criticising his brutal human rights record and his pro-East Asia, anti-farang policy early in his regime. Don’t forget that Abhisit (and maybe Korn too) is actually British. That is not to mention certain highly placed Americans, as was Thaksin’s son until he wisely removed his assets from Uncle Sam’s reach by renouncing his US citizenship.
The Democrats may be unwilling to face Thaksin in an election, as Andrew asserts, but face him they must.
Thaksin, himself, is making it very clear that he wants to make the election a national referendum about bringing him home with a free pardon. Under his party’s planned slogan, “Thaksin thinks, Puea Thai acts”, he will be running the country through his proxies, if PT wins. Shortly afterwards he would hope to return, regain his political rights and be nominated as party leader and PM after his nominee’s resignation. This may be a more difficult battle for the Democrats to fight than, if Thaksin were in Thailand in the flesh. He has become a saintly mirage that promises all kinds of goodies and can do no wrong to his Northern and Isaan supporters, whereas sthey might eventually have grown weary of his corruption and brutality, if he had stayed in power all the while.
No offense taken. I am not defending her actions, I am just suggesting that certain actions are not entirely hers. I am a 20 year old currently attending college here in the states. I have my own political views, I’m sure the CP had her own too.
But as a royal princess/prince, how much of my actions are truly my own? The things I can say or do are limited to reflect the image of my royal family, and the greater image of an elite group of people in Thai society.
The events in 1976 were horrific indeed. I’m not suggesting the CP, or any royal family member is denying this, I’m suggesting she was forced or coerced to think/act otherwise.
I especially like LY’s analysis of what seems to be going on here. That is very much in tune with what I have been picking up. Of course, I am still completely prepared to hear perspectives that challenge my intuition.
Perhaps the only way to really know will be “after the fact”, by which time much of this speculation will be, at best, of “academic” interest. In the meanwhile please feel free to keep the intriguing ideas coming.
There may be something here which a collective effort can help to pin down.
I am learning a lot (and I’m sure others are too).
Andrew Spooner why don’t you write your particular take about “the equivalence between both Thaksin’s and Abhisit’s human rights abuses” at Asian Correspondent, and, don’t be terrified of opening up (not closing off) the comments contributions.
I’ll let you know then what I do or don’t see about your perceived equivalence of both Thai leaders’ human rights record, ok?
I already said what I have to say about Andrew Marshall . . . do you all Aussie Andrews get so easily spooked by the suspicions of the Thaksin taint and need to be so protective of each other? Amusing.
@Nokkie, with all due respect, you could also be right that she had either been forced, or that she was not politically mature enough at that time. And some people I know (and they are those Thais who have studied the recent history of Thailand outside the Propaganda School Curriculum fed to the Thais by the Royalist Ministry of Education, not those clueless and brainwashed royalists who deny anything not completely fawning to the Monarchy as fabrication) also share the same view that you have.
However, I retain my perspective that she did those things willingly…even at that age. What happened on 6 October 1976 was a shocking event. I watched the video of that event and I was indeed shocked. Regardless of how politically immature one is, surely any reasonable and right-thinking person would be shocked if they witness such a brutal and inhumane crackdown; this massacre would shock any reasonable person’s conscience. And for her (at 20 years of age) to say that those (inhumanely brutal) acts are ‘exemplary, showing utmost loyalty to the Monarchy’ as well as saying that ‘Thais should follow this example’…I am sorry, but anyone who is 18 years old and over who REALLY thinks this kind of bloody massacre is an exemplary act must have something seriously wrong about their mentality…
Just my two cents of course. No offense intended 🙂
I had a similar reaction to Ralph. Who is on this list? More evidence to back up such claims would be helpful if we are supposed to take them seriously.
Ralph, the letter was a confidential memo and has also been mentioned in an expose on “Democracy100percent”: [http://democracy100percent.blogspot.com/2011/04/blog-post_18.html] the writer for this piece uses nom de plume р╕Бр╕▓р╕лр╕ер╕┤р╕Ъ
Andrew Marshall didn’t preface his contribution here with any anti-Thaksin credentials. You irrationally attacked him as pro-Thaksin when all the facts and evidence point to the exact opposite. Or is it really impossible for you to be able to see an equivalence between both Thaksin’s and Abhisit’s human rights abuses?
Sirindhorn is pushed forward as she gets good press and is a happy soul, or so it appears. So when there are political things going on, she is the one to push out into public to get the good press and to reinforce the royalist ideology. But I doubt she is apolitical. After all, by some accounts, she chairs the regular meetings of the highly politicised Privy Council, so presumably she knows what’s going on there. She has a record of political “statement”: not just 1976 when they were all on display (and a 21 year-old knows well what was happening then, when many of the demonstrators killed were about the same age), she regularly appears in military uniform (and has done so for many years), lectures military cadets each year, with all the big generals in attendance, and she showed her colors last May. It seems to me that she is unlikely to be much different from the rest of those in and around the palace, knowing the political situation and her role very well.
Chiranuch at Prachatai is facing 50 years in jail because she had left the comments on.
Maybe that’s why Andrew Spooner and BangkokPundit and probably many others are being cautious. It is frustrating but clearly not their fault.
If you’ve got complaints about not getting your piece heard, I suggest that you address them to the parties responsible – the censors and persecutors of free speech, i.e. the Thai army and its government.
To be fair, she was 20-21 at the time of the 1976 Massacres. I highly doubt she had any mature political views of her own at that time. I don’t think she was in full control, at least that time in knowing what her actions could be interpreted as. In essence, she must have been manipulated by other political agendas to do such things during that time.
I was kind of hoping for a response from Jim Taylor who wrote: “Jakrapob has also exposed an official letter sent from the army to various units and govt ministries, DSI, and police to increase pressure to crackdown on 112 offenders (new “blacklist” for people to be “taken out”), both in Thailand and overseas (including foreigners).”
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Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
In lieu of documentary evidence I would suggest that certain NM contributors, along with Robert Amsterdam, should try to travel in and of Suwannabhumi and see if anything happens.
Will Thailand’s elections be fair?
Arthurson. That is hilarious. You mean to say you actually fell for Thai Visa’s April Fools Day joke about Thailand planning to ban foreigners over 50 from marrying Thai citizens?
Nationalism and racism are always cheap tricks available to Thai politicians of all stripes because Thais (and other Asians) are not educated to understand that racism is actually demeaning to the racists. Thaksin was no different with his attacks on the IMF for bailing out the bankrupt Thai economy and against the UN for criticising his brutal human rights record and his pro-East Asia, anti-farang policy early in his regime. Don’t forget that Abhisit (and maybe Korn too) is actually British. That is not to mention certain highly placed Americans, as was Thaksin’s son until he wisely removed his assets from Uncle Sam’s reach by renouncing his US citizenship.
Pavin on lese majeste
The Thai army is incompetent countering the insurgency in the South – why should anyone expect them to be more competent in protecting the Monarchy?
Will Thailand’s elections be fair?
The Democrats may be unwilling to face Thaksin in an election, as Andrew asserts, but face him they must.
Thaksin, himself, is making it very clear that he wants to make the election a national referendum about bringing him home with a free pardon. Under his party’s planned slogan, “Thaksin thinks, Puea Thai acts”, he will be running the country through his proxies, if PT wins. Shortly afterwards he would hope to return, regain his political rights and be nominated as party leader and PM after his nominee’s resignation. This may be a more difficult battle for the Democrats to fight than, if Thaksin were in Thailand in the flesh. He has become a saintly mirage that promises all kinds of goodies and can do no wrong to his Northern and Isaan supporters, whereas sthey might eventually have grown weary of his corruption and brutality, if he had stayed in power all the while.
Has anybody else noticed…
@CT – 16
No offense taken. I am not defending her actions, I am just suggesting that certain actions are not entirely hers. I am a 20 year old currently attending college here in the states. I have my own political views, I’m sure the CP had her own too.
But as a royal princess/prince, how much of my actions are truly my own? The things I can say or do are limited to reflect the image of my royal family, and the greater image of an elite group of people in Thai society.
The events in 1976 were horrific indeed. I’m not suggesting the CP, or any royal family member is denying this, I’m suggesting she was forced or coerced to think/act otherwise.
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Marshall,
Scottish is just your disguise as I know you are actually part of the Australian-Thaksinite-Red-Helsinki-Khmer-Soros plot!
In the meantime watch this you Australian-Thaksinite-Red-Helsinki-Khmer-Soros running dog!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0NT6aUwN8c
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Facepalm.
I’m Scottish. Spooner, I am sorry to have to reveal, is English. Which makes him even worse than a red shirt in my book.
Anyway, I’m off to toss another prawn onto the barbie with a few Sheilas. Any of the other Andrews want to join me?
Has anybody else noticed…
Thanks to all of you for these valuable comments:
I especially like LY’s analysis of what seems to be going on here. That is very much in tune with what I have been picking up. Of course, I am still completely prepared to hear perspectives that challenge my intuition.
Perhaps the only way to really know will be “after the fact”, by which time much of this speculation will be, at best, of “academic” interest. In the meanwhile please feel free to keep the intriguing ideas coming.
There may be something here which a collective effort can help to pin down.
I am learning a lot (and I’m sure others are too).
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Andrew Spooner why don’t you write your particular take about “the equivalence between both Thaksin’s and Abhisit’s human rights abuses” at Asian Correspondent, and, don’t be terrified of opening up (not closing off) the comments contributions.
I’ll let you know then what I do or don’t see about your perceived equivalence of both Thai leaders’ human rights record, ok?
I already said what I have to say about Andrew Marshall . . . do you all Aussie Andrews get so easily spooked by the suspicions of the Thaksin taint and need to be so protective of each other? Amusing.
Has anybody else noticed…
@Nokkie, with all due respect, you could also be right that she had either been forced, or that she was not politically mature enough at that time. And some people I know (and they are those Thais who have studied the recent history of Thailand outside the Propaganda School Curriculum fed to the Thais by the Royalist Ministry of Education, not those clueless and brainwashed royalists who deny anything not completely fawning to the Monarchy as fabrication) also share the same view that you have.
However, I retain my perspective that she did those things willingly…even at that age. What happened on 6 October 1976 was a shocking event. I watched the video of that event and I was indeed shocked. Regardless of how politically immature one is, surely any reasonable and right-thinking person would be shocked if they witness such a brutal and inhumane crackdown; this massacre would shock any reasonable person’s conscience. And for her (at 20 years of age) to say that those (inhumanely brutal) acts are ‘exemplary, showing utmost loyalty to the Monarchy’ as well as saying that ‘Thais should follow this example’…I am sorry, but anyone who is 18 years old and over who REALLY thinks this kind of bloody massacre is an exemplary act must have something seriously wrong about their mentality…
Just my two cents of course. No offense intended 🙂
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
Jim Taylor, that site receives the “Blocked by MICT” Award
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
Thanks Jim,
I had a similar reaction to Ralph. Who is on this list? More evidence to back up such claims would be helpful if we are supposed to take them seriously.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
Ralph, the letter was a confidential memo and has also been mentioned in an expose on “Democracy100percent”: [http://democracy100percent.blogspot.com/2011/04/blog-post_18.html] the writer for this piece uses nom de plume р╕Бр╕▓р╕лр╕ер╕┤р╕Ъ
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Vichai
Andrew Marshall didn’t preface his contribution here with any anti-Thaksin credentials. You irrationally attacked him as pro-Thaksin when all the facts and evidence point to the exact opposite. Or is it really impossible for you to be able to see an equivalence between both Thaksin’s and Abhisit’s human rights abuses?
Has anybody else noticed…
Sirindhorn is pushed forward as she gets good press and is a happy soul, or so it appears. So when there are political things going on, she is the one to push out into public to get the good press and to reinforce the royalist ideology. But I doubt she is apolitical. After all, by some accounts, she chairs the regular meetings of the highly politicised Privy Council, so presumably she knows what’s going on there. She has a record of political “statement”: not just 1976 when they were all on display (and a 21 year-old knows well what was happening then, when many of the demonstrators killed were about the same age), she regularly appears in military uniform (and has done so for many years), lectures military cadets each year, with all the big generals in attendance, and she showed her colors last May. It seems to me that she is unlikely to be much different from the rest of those in and around the palace, knowing the political situation and her role very well.
Don’t mention the K word
Good one, Banphai.
Thai monarchy and Wikileaks
Vichai,
Chiranuch at Prachatai is facing 50 years in jail because she had left the comments on.
Maybe that’s why Andrew Spooner and BangkokPundit and probably many others are being cautious. It is frustrating but clearly not their fault.
If you’ve got complaints about not getting your piece heard, I suggest that you address them to the parties responsible – the censors and persecutors of free speech, i.e. the Thai army and its government.
Has anybody else noticed…
CT – 11,
To be fair, she was 20-21 at the time of the 1976 Massacres. I highly doubt she had any mature political views of her own at that time. I don’t think she was in full control, at least that time in knowing what her actions could be interpreted as. In essence, she must have been manipulated by other political agendas to do such things during that time.
Keeping up with the times
> “a rathole shared with countries like Zimbabwe, Iran, North Korea”
and the UK:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/apr/17/gagging-order-journalists-jail
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
I was kind of hoping for a response from Jim Taylor who wrote: “Jakrapob has also exposed an official letter sent from the army to various units and govt ministries, DSI, and police to increase pressure to crackdown on 112 offenders (new “blacklist” for people to be “taken out”), both in Thailand and overseas (including foreigners).”