Unthinkable is what I presume the Red Shirts would think of AW’s preposterous suggestion. The Red Shirts and PTP party sycophants need a Shinawatra (until Thaksin is pardoned) as their leader . . . a leader who is ATM-generous could have no fault, eh?
Didn’t I warn you people that Peau Thai Party is a party of and for the service of Thaksin and only Thaksin. But SteveCM & Co. will surely shout their denials.
If Thaksin could completely suborn the largest political party in Thailand . . . suborning completely the bones and souls of the Red Shirt movement would be no sweat . . . to Thaksin.
‘What did Jatuporn et al say on the stage that gave rise to Prayud’s LM complaint?’
I don’t know. Here are two assertions. One about Jatuporn and one about Wichian. Neither charge has legs. This is a bald-faced attempt by the military to imprison its civilian opposition. I hope it is making enough Thais furious enough to vote this regime out of power by a large, large margin.
General Sansern Keawkamnurd, spokesperson for the Army, has announced that the Army is accusing Jatuporn Prompan and two other Red Shirt leaders (Wichien Kaokum and Rambo Isarn) of “lèse majesté” following their 10th April rally in Bangkok. Jatuporn is accused of “insulting the princess” by saying that he too would like to be interviewed on TV by the same presenter. The Democrat Party Spokesman Teptai Senpong supports the Army’s accusation.
During the third day of the debates, on March 17, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban accused Red Shirt protesters of setting the CentralWorld shopping complex on fire. When Mr. Wichian came to their defense, he was shouted down by unruly Democrats. “Why the hell are you shouting for your father?” he shot back at them. “Why the hell are you shouting for your father?” [р╣Вр╕лр╣Ир╕лр╕▓р╕Юр╣Ир╕нр╕бр╕╢р╕Зр╣Ар╕лр╕гр╕н]
While Mr. Wichian’s retort may appear clunky in translation, it amounts to a commonplace, moderately offensive “Shut up.” Nevertheless, Mr. Wichian’s exasperation with Democrats on the floor of the Senate resonated with Red Shirts throughout the country. By the time the prominent UDD member took to the rally stage on April 10, the crowd on Ratchadamnern Avenue was chanting the phrase back to him. In his words, “People loved it.” Two days later, on April 12, Army Chief Prayuth Chan-ocha charged Mr. Wichian with lèse-majesté.
This sort of pre-emptive activity does not augur well for future management and regulation of the Lao dams upon which the Lower Mekong Basin will depend.
Glad that someone has finally found this ‘real’ literary magazine from Myanmar. Here’s additional notes on three regular writers of Chindwin: Mya Win (Dasana), Myint Than and Maung Kaung Htaik are the graduates from the philosophy Dept. of Yangon(the original) University. Mya Win is former rector of Pyay(Prome)University and also known as poet Maung Lin Kyee. Myint Than and Maung Kaung Htaik gained their Ph.D s from Western Universities and now residing in Australia and Russia respectively. Myint-Than translated Kafka, Camus, Jorge Luis Borge and Luxun into Myanmar language. Now, his translation of Sunzu’s The Art of War into Myanmar with notes and explanations in Chindwin.
I recall an essay by Susan Sontag, written in the ’60s I assume, reporting on her trip to North Vietnam during the war. She makes great play of the extremely literate culture of the Vietnamese. So this is evidently not a new thing.
p.s it was republished in “Styles of Radical Will”, if I’ve got the title right…
My instinctive response to Abhisit’s call for and the EC’s issuing of draft regulation/bill for enactment is that it’s unfortunate but still the lesser of two evils.
Without it, it’s clear that Dems and BJT would be slinging the anti-monarchy mud for all they’re worth – and probably a good deal more than that. With it, there seems to be at least some scope for their well-honed smear tactics being reined in. By extension, the same might even be said of the near-ubiquitous government media mouthpieces.
That said, the proposed regulation appears to be confined to politicians/candidates. If that’s the case, it still leaves the government’s partners – e.g. the [cough] “apolitical” military – to carry on their mud-slinging as much as they please. And, based on what’s already started, one assumes that there’s actually no end to how much it pleases them…..
This post had longer legs and covered wider ground than I anticipated, for which I am grateful. I’d like to thank Stuart for his resolutely calm responses to various comments.
I also thank him for his key point: Thai will evolve too. Without punctuation, there is simply no way that modern Thai can accommodate the agility of a fast-evolving society. I believe it will naturally select, over time, a set of punctuation and other hallmarks of an advanced modern language. If it doesn’t adopt punctuation – or is forced not to – then it will lose its ability to reflect and progress the increasingly complex discourse of Thai speakers as they transform from a rural agrarian society into a much more literate enterprise economy. (#23)
Some further questions about the Thai language which seem worth considering are:
1. What are the implications of there being in effect three separate Thai languages?
2. What are the difficulties (if any) of the dichotomy between spoken and written Thai words?
3. Why, according to Thongchai Winichakul, are Thais, including scholars much less fluent in European languages than,say, Filipinos and Malaysians?
4. Why, again according to Thongchai, has translation as a scholarly endeavour been much less valued historically in Thailand than in countries such as Japan or China?
5. How, in the absence of a historic figure like Kemal Ataturk, will the Thai language make necessary changes in time?
I quote from page 139 of “Jungle Book” by Chang Noi, referring to comments made by Thirayuth Boonmi, who was a leader of the student revolt against military dictatorship in October 1973. He says that “After Thai people’s history of absolutism and dictatorship, even the words for civil society are not available. All the Thai translations of ‘citizen’ are words invented by the state to enforce duties on the people, not rights….There are no good Thai terms for things like decentralization. If Thailand is to have a civil society, Thirayuth suggests, it first needs the vocabulary. And his self-appointed job is to create it. Despite the slow progress, Thirayuth is still involved.”
Further down the page, in describing Thongchai Winichakul as “the most feted Thai historian in the international arena”, Chang Noi goes on to say that part of Thongchai’s role is to “remind the optimistic reformers just how difficult their task truly is.”
Looking at the pictures of those pink-shirted brainwashed people holding the picture of the King made me feel embarrassed to be a Thai. Monarchy Protection Volunteers…give me a break. If the Monarchy is so well-loved like they claim, why they must engage in this ridiculous activity of stimulating the (brainwashed) Thais to protect them?
If true, then Vietnamese can be looked at as a ‘natural experiment’. I know they have adopted a Romanticized writing forms. Whether this change also included making phonetic consistency, I don’t know.
The point: A large part of this most interesting group discussion centers around whether or not changing Thai spacing, etc. would result in an increase in both the quantity and quality of Thai reading and writing output.
To the extent that Vietnam’s startling reading stats can be traced to a before and after literacy increase tied to before Romanizing and after, would be suggestive of what might happen here.
Can one argue on the complicated facts of their language reform, that reading increased as a result of or at least, reading increases were associated with the reforms?
2. As to the social class or feudal social caste arguments as to why serious modernization has not occurred in Thailand, I agree with much of the various arguments made.
To put it in political terms: Their are those at the tops of bureaucracies, etc., whose INTERESTS are advanced by keeping language reform at bay. They clearly are not thinking or acting in terms of the general interests of modernization Thailand nor of reconciliation with the countryside nor creating a common culture that works together, rather than operates as a linguistically divided Babel.
The organization of this group reminded me of Interior Ministry sponsored events I have seen previously, also several of the participants might have been soldiers out of uniform.
If this is true (and I’ll hazard a guess it is) then if possible it should be followed up. Of course, soldiers out of uniform on their days off are perfectly entitled to engage in such activities. However, if soldiers or others are being coerced then what is needed is a “Deep Throat” prepared to spill the beans to journalists in exchange for strict anonymity. Easier said than done, I admit.
The presence of such (hypothetical) stooges would be an ironic counterbalance to the use of the “Third Hand” to discredit legitimate grievances against the government. For a useful discussion of this tactic go to http://2bangkok.com/ and type Closing a Provincial Highway into the Search box to access the post dated 21 March 2011.
The Not The Nation LM scenario now seems to be playing out in reality with Jatuporn counter suing Yongyuth for filing a LM complaint against him. I wonder if Yongyuth will respond with another LM complaint based on the counter suit.
By the way does any one know what Jatuporn and others are alleged to have said that was deemed by Yongyuth to be offensive to the Z?
“Normal citizens” who wish to “express their love” should lie on their stomachs with their face/nose touching the floor or ground and with their hands and arms extended above their heads, also touching the floor or ground. Their eyes should be closed as a further expression of “reverence”.
I imagine this talk will be purely academic and legalistic as Thailand has nothing meaningful to say on the issue. Its navy has done a spectacularly poor job in confronting armed Somalian and other pirates who shoot back. They do much better with unarmed Rohinya refugees in leaky boats. Perhaps the submarines will help them creep up on the pirates.
Alex. Thaksin’s ban from politics as a member of the 111 TRT executive committee members ends on 30 May 2012 but he will remain banned after that due to his criminal conviction, unless he can organize an amnesty. Correct me, if I am wrong, but I think he will remain banned for 5 years after completing his sentence. Then there are other criminal charges pending against him and the statute of limitations law has been amended to exclude time spent overseas as a fugitive from justice.
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An outdated way of choosing a leader!!
Unthinkable is what I presume the Red Shirts would think of AW’s preposterous suggestion. The Red Shirts and PTP party sycophants need a Shinawatra (until Thaksin is pardoned) as their leader . . . a leader who is ATM-generous could have no fault, eh?
Didn’t I warn you people that Peau Thai Party is a party of and for the service of Thaksin and only Thaksin. But SteveCM & Co. will surely shout their denials.
If Thaksin could completely suborn the largest political party in Thailand . . . suborning completely the bones and souls of the Red Shirt movement would be no sweat . . . to Thaksin.
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
‘What did Jatuporn et al say on the stage that gave rise to Prayud’s LM complaint?’
I don’t know. Here are two assertions. One about Jatuporn and one about Wichian. Neither charge has legs. This is a bald-faced attempt by the military to imprison its civilian opposition. I hope it is making enough Thais furious enough to vote this regime out of power by a large, large margin.
Thai Military make threats against pro-democracy Red Shirts (hit it a coupla times if necessary)
Udon MP Accused of Lèse-Majesté Responds to Charges
Decision looms for controversial Xayaburi dam on lower Mekong
This sort of pre-emptive activity does not augur well for future management and regulation of the Lao dams upon which the Lower Mekong Basin will depend.
Chindwin, the magazine
Glad that someone has finally found this ‘real’ literary magazine from Myanmar. Here’s additional notes on three regular writers of Chindwin: Mya Win (Dasana), Myint Than and Maung Kaung Htaik are the graduates from the philosophy Dept. of Yangon(the original) University. Mya Win is former rector of Pyay(Prome)University and also known as poet Maung Lin Kyee. Myint Than and Maung Kaung Htaik gained their Ph.D s from Western Universities and now residing in Australia and Russia respectively. Myint-Than translated Kafka, Camus, Jorge Luis Borge and Luxun into Myanmar language. Now, his translation of Sunzu’s The Art of War into Myanmar with notes and explanations in Chindwin.
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
“… what is needed is a “Deep Throat” prepared to spill the beans to journalists”
Surely it’s now clear that this would have absolutely no effect or consequences in Thailand?
Reforming Thai language structure
#34
I recall an essay by Susan Sontag, written in the ’60s I assume, reporting on her trip to North Vietnam during the war. She makes great play of the extremely literate culture of the Vietnamese. So this is evidently not a new thing.
p.s it was republished in “Styles of Radical Will”, if I’ve got the title right…
Don’t mention the K word
My instinctive response to Abhisit’s call for and the EC’s issuing of draft regulation/bill for enactment is that it’s unfortunate but still the lesser of two evils.
Without it, it’s clear that Dems and BJT would be slinging the anti-monarchy mud for all they’re worth – and probably a good deal more than that. With it, there seems to be at least some scope for their well-honed smear tactics being reined in. By extension, the same might even be said of the near-ubiquitous government media mouthpieces.
That said, the proposed regulation appears to be confined to politicians/candidates. If that’s the case, it still leaves the government’s partners – e.g. the [cough] “apolitical” military – to carry on their mud-slinging as much as they please. And, based on what’s already started, one assumes that there’s actually no end to how much it pleases them…..
Reforming Thai language structure
This post had longer legs and covered wider ground than I anticipated, for which I am grateful. I’d like to thank Stuart for his resolutely calm responses to various comments.
I also thank him for his key point:
Thai will evolve too. Without punctuation, there is simply no way that modern Thai can accommodate the agility of a fast-evolving society. I believe it will naturally select, over time, a set of punctuation and other hallmarks of an advanced modern language. If it doesn’t adopt punctuation – or is forced not to – then it will lose its ability to reflect and progress the increasingly complex discourse of Thai speakers as they transform from a rural agrarian society into a much more literate enterprise economy. (#23)
Some further questions about the Thai language which seem worth considering are:
1. What are the implications of there being in effect three separate Thai languages?
2. What are the difficulties (if any) of the dichotomy between spoken and written Thai words?
3. Why, according to Thongchai Winichakul, are Thais, including scholars much less fluent in European languages than,say, Filipinos and Malaysians?
4. Why, again according to Thongchai, has translation as a scholarly endeavour been much less valued historically in Thailand than in countries such as Japan or China?
5. How, in the absence of a historic figure like Kemal Ataturk, will the Thai language make necessary changes in time?
I quote from page 139 of “Jungle Book” by Chang Noi, referring to comments made by Thirayuth Boonmi, who was a leader of the student revolt against military dictatorship in October 1973. He says that “After Thai people’s history of absolutism and dictatorship, even the words for civil society are not available. All the Thai translations of ‘citizen’ are words invented by the state to enforce duties on the people, not rights….There are no good Thai terms for things like decentralization. If Thailand is to have a civil society, Thirayuth suggests, it first needs the vocabulary. And his self-appointed job is to create it. Despite the slow progress, Thirayuth is still involved.”
Further down the page, in describing Thongchai Winichakul as “the most feted Thai historian in the international arena”, Chang Noi goes on to say that part of Thongchai’s role is to “remind the optimistic reformers just how difficult their task truly is.”
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
Looking at the pictures of those pink-shirted brainwashed people holding the picture of the King made me feel embarrassed to be a Thai. Monarchy Protection Volunteers…give me a break. If the Monarchy is so well-loved like they claim, why they must engage in this ridiculous activity of stimulating the (brainwashed) Thais to protect them?
Don’t mention the K word
The level of Royal vigilantism in Thailand is unbelievable. Thailand is Land of the Free indeed…
Don’t mention the K word
But what if NM itself is an diabolically clever trap set out by MICT to capture all those with “dis-loyal” and/or “heretical” thoughts?
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
What did Jatuporn et al say on the stage that gave rise to Prayud’s LM complaint?
Don’t mention the K word
Apologies. “Yongyuth” in my post above should have been “Prayuth”.
Reforming Thai language structure
1. Sam Deedes “With recent figures showing the Vietnamese reading thirty times as many books as the Thais (http://www.viet-studies.info/reading_habit_way_behind.htm), ”
If true, then Vietnamese can be looked at as a ‘natural experiment’. I know they have adopted a Romanticized writing forms. Whether this change also included making phonetic consistency, I don’t know.
The point: A large part of this most interesting group discussion centers around whether or not changing Thai spacing, etc. would result in an increase in both the quantity and quality of Thai reading and writing output.
To the extent that Vietnam’s startling reading stats can be traced to a before and after literacy increase tied to before Romanizing and after, would be suggestive of what might happen here.
Can one argue on the complicated facts of their language reform, that reading increased as a result of or at least, reading increases were associated with the reforms?
2. As to the social class or feudal social caste arguments as to why serious modernization has not occurred in Thailand, I agree with much of the various arguments made.
To put it in political terms: Their are those at the tops of bureaucracies, etc., whose INTERESTS are advanced by keeping language reform at bay. They clearly are not thinking or acting in terms of the general interests of modernization Thailand nor of reconciliation with the countryside nor creating a common culture that works together, rather than operates as a linguistically divided Babel.
Don’t mention the K word
As long As NM keep our IP address a secret then we shouldn’t have to worry about the arrest.
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
The organization of this group reminded me of Interior Ministry sponsored events I have seen previously, also several of the participants might have been soldiers out of uniform.
If this is true (and I’ll hazard a guess it is) then if possible it should be followed up. Of course, soldiers out of uniform on their days off are perfectly entitled to engage in such activities. However, if soldiers or others are being coerced then what is needed is a “Deep Throat” prepared to spill the beans to journalists in exchange for strict anonymity. Easier said than done, I admit.
The presence of such (hypothetical) stooges would be an ironic counterbalance to the use of the “Third Hand” to discredit legitimate grievances against the government. For a useful discussion of this tactic go to http://2bangkok.com/ and type Closing a Provincial Highway into the Search box to access the post dated 21 March 2011.
Don’t mention the K word
The Not The Nation LM scenario now seems to be playing out in reality with Jatuporn counter suing Yongyuth for filing a LM complaint against him. I wonder if Yongyuth will respond with another LM complaint based on the counter suit.
By the way does any one know what Jatuporn and others are alleged to have said that was deemed by Yongyuth to be offensive to the Z?
Nostitz reports on a Bangkok stand-off
“Normal citizens” who wish to “express their love” should lie on their stomachs with their face/nose touching the floor or ground and with their hands and arms extended above their heads, also touching the floor or ground. Their eyes should be closed as a further expression of “reverence”.
Thai ambassador to speak at ANU
I imagine this talk will be purely academic and legalistic as Thailand has nothing meaningful to say on the issue. Its navy has done a spectacularly poor job in confronting armed Somalian and other pirates who shoot back. They do much better with unarmed Rohinya refugees in leaky boats. Perhaps the submarines will help them creep up on the pirates.
An outdated way of choosing a leader!!
Alex. Thaksin’s ban from politics as a member of the 111 TRT executive committee members ends on 30 May 2012 but he will remain banned after that due to his criminal conviction, unless he can organize an amnesty. Correct me, if I am wrong, but I think he will remain banned for 5 years after completing his sentence. Then there are other criminal charges pending against him and the statute of limitations law has been amended to exclude time spent overseas as a fugitive from justice.