Totally agree with AW here, I’m extremely dissapointed to see Yingluck name as a candidate, another name that surprise is Seripisut the chief of police during the junta day. Why PT want to take those people in is beyond me but as things goes now I’m leaving with little choice to pick.
It is the authoritarian nature of Thai education that leaves Thai students unwilling to explore the benefits of reading. Rote methods of learning which are taught throughout the kingdom fail to emphasize creative and critical thinking which is important for the evolution of any language. That the language hasn’t evolved grammatically may be attributed to the particular kind of nationalism taught in the country. The results of which can be seen when Thais learn English, very few seem to master speaking it orally as Thai teachers of English don’t emphasize the importance of phonetics in the language.
Hopefully the internet age will be able to break down the brainwashing that for decades has isolated the country. The Thai dinosaurs that have kept the education system the way it is to keep the populace under control will crumble. There is no way in this day and age to stop the flow of knowledge.
Some comments…
1. On adding spaces /Other reasons why some people don’t seem to like reading Thai.
Thai children’s books, the ones aimed at 5-6 year old beginning readers do have spaces in between a lot of the words. When I first started learning to read Thai 6 years ago, I used to read a lot of childrens books and, at first the gaps helped a lot. Though, after a while you start to guess – and eventually to recognise – where a word starts and ends, even if you don’t know the meaning of it. Its quite strange how easy it starts to become and how your brain learns to recognise the visual patterns that the strings of letters and words make.
But, as to whether the lack of spaces between words impedes Thai people’s fluency in reading written Thai / makes people less interested in reading ???? I doubt thats the reason. I think there are more educational/cultural reasons why a lot of Thais don’t seem to read as much as people in the west.
OK, I’m generalising here, but I think most westerners who enjoy reading developed their love of books from an early age eg. even before they could read they probably had great stories to look at, and parents who could read the books to them. I don’t think I’ve seen that many Thai houses with bookshelves and a collection of books, and I wonder how many Thai children grew up falling asleep to a bedtime story?
Sure, there are a lot of books in Thailand but most people don’t seem to like buying or reading them. (go to one of the 2 big book fairs at the Queen Sirkit centre in Bangkok and you’ll see more Thai books that you ever thought possible… and thousands of people pushing their way through to the most popular stalls… but the book fairs are an exception. eg. they were set up to try and promote reading…) Take a tube in London and at least 2 or 3 of the commuters in the carriage will be reading a book or flicking through a newspaper. Take the skytrain in Bangok and you’ll be lucky if you see one reader. Most people are either staring into space or playing with their mobiles.
Maybe its a cultural thing. Back home, we’re taught that its good to read books, its relaxing, interesting, fun. In my infant school in England (Ok – this is going back 30 years or so) our reward for finishing our work early was to be able to sit in the book corner on a big comfy cushion and to play with the toys and picture books. At one school I taught in in Thailand, when primary school students finished their work early the teacher told them to ‘nang samarti’ (practise meditation…) in other words, sit still, in silence and do nothing… (hardly my idea of a reward) Taking a book (not that there were that many – and no nice ones – to take) and reading it was never suggested.
That was a poor rural school (and an old teacher, waiting for their pension) but, generally speaking, Thai teachers, in the Thai schools I’ve worked in don’t usually promote library based lessons, or do activities that will develop children’s interest in books.
Another reason is probably the actual books themselves. A lot of the books that are aimed at children are moralistic dross (eg. bad translations of aesop etc…) not the kind of stuff they would usually be interested in or actively want to read. When children are given the chance to choose books to read they tend to go for Japanese/Korean style comic pocketbooks, rather than longer stories. Maybe this is related to the fact that the sentences / phrases tend to be much shorter than usual (they’re in speech bubbles… so its easier to make out each phrase) and that, since its a written version of a conversation there are spaces (eg. after exclamation words like ‘wow’) in between some of the words????
Also, in many Thai schools there is still a lot of rote learning. Letters are to be memorised and chanted back to the teacher. Children are taught to read as a class. There are stories, of a kind… ‘the crow has eyes… the crow is in the field.. the crow is with his uncle in the field…’ These are written on a blackboard line for line, and students have to listen to and repeat each phrase until they can remember them all word for word. There are no pictures, and nothing to fuel the childrens imagination. The teacher asks no questions eg. what does the field look like? what does the uncle look like? that might make the students think about what they are saying. In this context reading, for most children is probably not something they find that stimulating or enjoyable.
Also, bear in mind that most written material is produced in the central Thai dialect, a language that a lot of people outside of Bangkok don’t usually speak, except at school, or in formal situations. I taught at a couple of schools in the north and most people, including the teachers spoke kam meuang. When I volunteered at a school in Issan, the teachers spoke Issan Thai or the local Put Thai dialect. For children to speak one language/dialect at home and then to have to read books in another can’t be easy. Sure a lot of the words are the same but the way that they are pronounced (and Thai is a fairly phonetic language) is not. For example, for a child to learn that ‘gin’ (said in a mid tone) ‘khao’ (said in a long falling tone) means to eat (and to be made to repeat this at school everyday), when they actually say ‘gin’ (in a rising tone) and ‘khao (in a short rising tone with the initial k sounding more like a ‘g’) in every day conversation must be confusing… and to see it written one way but know that it is spoken another, even more so.
I’ve no idea know how many novels/books etc. published in Thailand are written in local dialects ???? Maybe if people were able to buy books written in their own local language they’d be more likely to read them???
Also, I’m not sure how true this is but, when I stayed in the north I was told that traditionally Thai culture was very oral based, and that historically the only people who could read were people high up in society, monks and shamans (who were often former monks.) Locals learned about the news in other provinces/how to behave/folktales and stories etc. because Buddhist monks read palm leaf scriptures out to them. Even when ‘normal’ people started to became literate, they still tended to listen to others read things for them, rather than finding things out for themselves (I think this fits in with the idea of thai society being very heirarchical and people lower down not challenging authority etc…)
2. Thai Language syllabuses…
The Thai language syllabus of the language school in BKK where I studied a short evening course 5 years ago was also pretty nationalistic and right wing eg. We were supposed to learn about how great Rama V was, how how Thailand was never invaded (they ‘invited’ the Japanese in to help build a railway), how considerate and polite Thai people are – now, knowing what I do about kraeng jy, I kind of think its the opposite… neither polite nor considerate, and often more of an attempt to avoid being seen as being inconsiderate – how farmers are dumb and don’t want to be educated, how Taksin (this was pre-coup) was a bad leader as he was ‘selling’ the country to Singapore…
But, most of the things we studied (which the Thai teacher seemed to take as absolute truths) were no different from what most Thai school children have to study too. (Taksin aside…)Thai schools really teach this stuff and students, since they are told these facts by Thai teachers (who are never wrong), usually believe it without question.
3. Adding spaces
The Thai media tends to be fiercely posessive of everything Thai… Every year, (usually arounnd soonthorn Phu / Thai Langaue Day) there’s normally some group ranting off about how the Thai langauge is being destroyed… how todays teenagers are illiterate or about how they are ruining the beautiful Thai language with their use of farang words, ‘tinglish’ and text speak… Just the suggestion that they should think about adding spaces to make the language easier for non-Thais to understand would probably upset these people even more.
QUOTE(Nick Nostitz):”At the rally in Udon I noticed no journalists other than Red Shirt media. There was no TV coverage; no coverage of this event in any newspapers I know of. I wonder how it can be possible that such a large event can go completely unnoticed by the local media?”
Khun Terdsak Kungjinjan’s funeral rites aren’t worthy of any attention in the Thai press such is the sycophantic – servilely compliant – obsequious – deferential – loyally obedient nature of the Thai and English language media here.
In short – the powers to be tell them (the media) what to do and report and with few exceptions they report and do it – time and time again without question.
Anyway – thanks for reporting on this Nick. Your reports are – in my opinion – the definitive accounts of a rapidly changing political landscape. A great shame other media outlets here don’t share your enthusiasm or commitment to cover such important and monumental political developments.
I admire the way you keep a polite posture in your responding messages at all times, even when certain posters seem to just simply try provoke a reaction from your side with the most pathetic anti-theses.
THIS IS A HISTORIC MOMENT IN MALAYSIA. SARAWAKIANS CAN CHANGE HISTORY IF YOU VOTE WISELY ON 16 APRIL 2011. THIS IS THE TIME N SEASON TO CHANGE, JUST DO IT NOW N WE WILL HAVE A BETTER MALAYSIA
Fascinating and unintentionally revealing letter from the Ambassador through the It’s Martino link.It strikes me as extraordinary that there is no English language quality control for letters produced for the public domain.The letter in addition to being barely literate reproduces to an almost embarrassing degree the royalist hysteria that is associated with some members of the Thai elite, but is of course ludicrously inappropriate for the wider Australian republic. Shouldn’t a more worldly wise operator take control? I’ve been looking at a number of Chinese Embassy public letters recently: the sophistication in relation to tone and audience is quite striking
Incidentally it’s fair enough to disagree with the Paul Handley book but it’s just fatuous to suggest it’s discredited
Is sounds stupid, that “putting spaces between words” or “change system and structure of writing” in thai language can changes in the neurophysiological or socio-physiological or any mind set, that causes the way how thais think or increases thais rates of reading. No way! Change system and structure of writing that shows only one of resistance to authorities in writing technique.
I agree with previous comments that putting spaces between words and using punctuation can help writer and reader see each sentences; mass and individual, connection and sequence, that let them more attentive to subtleties of meaning. But that only in writing language.
In general point of view speaking and writing language are separated. In Thai language do not have such idea though they want to have it. Thais write similar to speaking mode (in official on in general). So Thai language is speaking language. But in thai, it can not separate both language usage. Obviously, writing base on speaking permanently. Unconsciously. It shows the way we speaking and talking in everyday. For this reason, such as, formal language (major thai usage), writing can show the way state try to control Thais mind more than show the way we thought. Yes, it reflect technique of cultural control by authorities.
According to the United Nations Development Programme Report 2009, Thailands literacy rate is at 94.1 %. That means that 94.1 % of Thai adults are able to read a newspaper and other basic literature.
I would say that Thais not being great readers is a cultural thing, nothing at all to do with their ability to read their own language.
Perhaps if Thai used punctuation there would be a 100% literacy rate in Thailand!!!
I am trying to take a metacognitive approach to one aspect of the Thai language. Is continuous script an impediment to reading fluency for the average Thai? If not why has it been abandoned elsewhere in the world? If it is then in whose interest is it to retain it?
Making understanding easier for foreigners would be a spin off of abandoning continuous script, not an aim.
This is no doubt distinct from “Romanisation of Thai” but could provide an opportunity for informed debate on continuous script. Conference organisers are asking for papers on the subject and it would be really good if someone more competent than I who is reading this would consider submitting one.
On the other issue of language courses I nearly walked out of mine when the teacher informed the class that “Isaan people have smaller noses than the rest of us”(!)
After the communist take over in Laos in 1975 It was very difficult to get any material in the written language. Sure, there were translations of Lenin and Marx and the party newspaper. How exciting do ya reckon that was? Eventually, 2 books came out, one on Lao history and another on agriculture. In order to stay literate I chose the the one on agriculture, dreading the marxist historical diatribe. More fool me to think that marxism wouldn’t make it into agriculture. The point? Everywhere you turn in Thailand, its the royal family this, the royal family that. How exciting do ya reckon that is?
As for the Lao language, after several ravishings by various unrepresentitive governments, it is now damn near phonemic. This cannot of course be said about either Thai or English. This aspect is much more important than whether or not there are spaces between words or punctuation. Sheesh, next you’ll be demanding capitals at the begining of sentences. I’ve never known a literate Thai or a Lao to suffer brain disfunction while reading their respective scripts.
Pibun did of course try to clean up the Thai script in his own laughably inept fashion. It was an abomination that only that particular clown was capable of. When the amaat finally got control back, what was the reaction? That’s right, they stuffed more historical junk back into the script than had ever been there in the first place. They don’t call them reactionaries for nothing.
Tod Danials #7. My mum was one the bravest people I’ve ever known. In her autopsy there was no metion of her possessing the anotomical appendage that you equate with bravery. You should perhaps reconsider its place in your lexicon.
Tod Danials #9 You are right. Now the only interesting stuff in either Thai or Lao is on the web. Out there, there is much less official control so who knows where it will go. Unfortuately very few native Lao have access to it.
But spaces? Sounds like something Pibun would think up.
[…] For example this is all the US State Department has to say on the dozens of people killed and thousands injured by the Thai Army in 2010’s Bangkok Massacre. […]
Apart from all the “rational” and “strategic” and “foreign policy” arguments/discussions about how out-of-date 2nd hand submarines fit or don’t fit into the Thailand government’s overall plan, let’s face the truth here head on.
The primary reason for this particular “purchase” of 2nd hand submarines has more to do with the bank accounts and retirement funds of various Thai officials and Naval Officers than it has to do with any and all of the other more “rational” arguments.
Much like the GT 2000 empty black plastic boxes and “surveillance” blimp and to some degree the Gripen jet fighter planes. Such is the sad state of Thailand’s military structure.
I read that the submarines under negotiation are ex-German navy U-206A diesel patrol submarines. These submarines have a displacement of 400-500 tonnes, and only carry torpedoes and mines. In submarine terms this is a lightweight. They do not have the same capabilities as the Kilo-class submarines Vietnam is rumored to be acquiring, or the Scorpene-class submarines of the Malaysian navy.
the same argument goes now for Thailand – because the navy is weak.
Can’t use the same argument here because the situation then was the German was the aggressor and she wasn’t in the position to wait until the surface fleet become strong enough to go against the Allied Navy. They were rushing in to the international sea to hunt for the Allied shipping. On the other hand, we are in the peace time and the chance of even have to use preemptive strike might be close to none.
This boat type made of non-magnetic steel can still hide in the mud.
The only use for non-magnetic steel was not to hide from sonar, but to reduce the chance of activating the magnetic mine. The noise level on the other hand, is the major factor in determine how stealthy the submarine is. No matter what your submarine is made of its still suspect to be detect by active sonar. Furthermore the gulf of Thailand is very shallow (mean dept of 45 m and maximum at 80 m) that it is almost impossible to hide anything there.
Then again, I think the main argument is not “whether it is possible to buy a submarine” but rather “is it necessary now”. At least with frigate you can still use to for surface patrol to hunt for illegal activity like drug smuggling and what no but you can’t use the submarine for the same purpose.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to come off soo defensive especially in regards to defending anything ‘Thai’ 555+. They can do that on their own.
I’ve found I can comprehend, understand, and glean the meaning out of most things I routinely read in Thai. Conversely, if a topic doesn’t interest me I could read it 10 times and not make heads or tails outta it.
There are more than just a few Thai words which when seen in written Thai equal out to a “,” or a pause between parts of a sentence. Sentences are also routinely separated by at single space, but I’ve seen double spaced stuff too. Paragraphs while not always indented are at least usually delineated.
FWIW: languages are ‘living entities’ and evolve based on useage by the people who speak them. I am NO fan of the Thai language purists who insist it’s a benefit to be able to read 400 y/o thai inscriptions like it was written yesterday. That to me is a stagnant language and one doomed to die a slow death in todays ever changing world.
Even a brief perusal of web-forums written in Thai shows how the younger generation is modifying the language to better suit their needs in the inter-connected world we now live in. Using real punctuation, changing spellings to facilitate faster typing or to more closely replicate the spoken pronunciation, abbreviations and slang are all advancing at an astonishing pace out there via M-speak or chat-speak. I dunno that Thais will ever start to space words out, and frankly don’t care all that much, but I am all for a language evolving to meet the needs of the people speaking it. Now should a language evolve simply to make it easier for foreigners who read it have the ability to understand it better; Hmmm no, not so much.
(Yeah sorry about using engrish, I routinely use that spelling so it I don’t hafta capitalize it. Being a native English speaker I don’t see a lot worng , err wrong with it…)
And once again, sorry for the defensive tone of my original post. Thanx for posting it though…
There really is no need to be so defensive. I doubt anybody here is attacking you personally, real name or not.
My point was not that a lack of punctuation affects meaning; rather, that the lack of punctuation affects comprehension. There is a difference, and I’m not sure you have grasped this distinction.
Punctuation can indeed be used to convey meaning, but its much more common use is to improve comprehension. It’s a fact that a well-punctuated narrative using words, sentences and paragraphs is easier to read than a dense and unpunctuated block of text. As a newspaper editor I spend the best part of my day making it so.
Written Thai does not make use of punctuation. It does, as you say, use particular words for meaning, such as р╣Др╕лр╕б, but this is common to most languages that I know of, including English (e.g. “right?”, “isn’t it?”). These extra words in Thai do indeed convey meaning, but they are not punctuation, and are not intended as a replacement for punctuation as far as I can see. Rather, they are a function of the spoken language and serve no additional function in written Thai (as opposed to punctuation in English, for example). The use of tone in spoken Thai also famously conveys meaning, but that hardly negates the need for punctuation in written Thai either.
I’m afraid the the lack of punctuation in written Thai seems to me to be more a case of not having got round to it yet, to its detriment, rather than some self-regulating compensation mechanism nherent in its alphabet, as you imply.
I see you’ve written “engrish” (sic) on at least three occasions which, sadly, rules out typographical error as a plausible explanation. I shudder to think of the alternatives.
Tarrin – the same argument goes now for Thailand – because the navy is weak.
I agree that technology advanced but you cannot make a few hundred tons of steel completely undetectable. This boat type made of non-magnetic steel can still hide in the mud.
As I mentioned above, the most dramatic development is in electric storage technology. So it is easy to suggest the Thais replace the heavy and outdated batteries at the end of their livespan with something much more effective for the electric underwater drive.
Some similarity to a car. If the battery is finished, you won’t throw the whole car away…
Why the ICG’s Burma analyses and calls for ending sanctions cannot be taken seriously
By Maung Zarni
Published on April 11, 2011
When the European Union policy makers meet to review the EU Common Policy on Burma, they would be wise to treat the International Crisis Group’s (ICG) latest report on Burma titled ‘Myanmar’s Post-election Landscape’ with a huge grain of salt and disregard its call, in effect, for the unconditional embrace of the country’s military dictatorship by lifting sanctions, normalizing aid relations and promoting trade and investment.
I doubt this list is complete or final. If nothing else, if it does include “wounded” then some of the wounds identified are clearly critical and could well have led to death later.
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An outdated way of choosing a leader!!
Totally agree with AW here, I’m extremely dissapointed to see Yingluck name as a candidate, another name that surprise is Seripisut the chief of police during the junta day. Why PT want to take those people in is beyond me but as things goes now I’m leaving with little choice to pick.
Reforming Thai language structure
It is the authoritarian nature of Thai education that leaves Thai students unwilling to explore the benefits of reading. Rote methods of learning which are taught throughout the kingdom fail to emphasize creative and critical thinking which is important for the evolution of any language. That the language hasn’t evolved grammatically may be attributed to the particular kind of nationalism taught in the country. The results of which can be seen when Thais learn English, very few seem to master speaking it orally as Thai teachers of English don’t emphasize the importance of phonetics in the language.
Hopefully the internet age will be able to break down the brainwashing that for decades has isolated the country. The Thai dinosaurs that have kept the education system the way it is to keep the populace under control will crumble. There is no way in this day and age to stop the flow of knowledge.
Reforming Thai language structure
Some comments…
1. On adding spaces /Other reasons why some people don’t seem to like reading Thai.
Thai children’s books, the ones aimed at 5-6 year old beginning readers do have spaces in between a lot of the words. When I first started learning to read Thai 6 years ago, I used to read a lot of childrens books and, at first the gaps helped a lot. Though, after a while you start to guess – and eventually to recognise – where a word starts and ends, even if you don’t know the meaning of it. Its quite strange how easy it starts to become and how your brain learns to recognise the visual patterns that the strings of letters and words make.
But, as to whether the lack of spaces between words impedes Thai people’s fluency in reading written Thai / makes people less interested in reading ???? I doubt thats the reason. I think there are more educational/cultural reasons why a lot of Thais don’t seem to read as much as people in the west.
OK, I’m generalising here, but I think most westerners who enjoy reading developed their love of books from an early age eg. even before they could read they probably had great stories to look at, and parents who could read the books to them. I don’t think I’ve seen that many Thai houses with bookshelves and a collection of books, and I wonder how many Thai children grew up falling asleep to a bedtime story?
Sure, there are a lot of books in Thailand but most people don’t seem to like buying or reading them. (go to one of the 2 big book fairs at the Queen Sirkit centre in Bangkok and you’ll see more Thai books that you ever thought possible… and thousands of people pushing their way through to the most popular stalls… but the book fairs are an exception. eg. they were set up to try and promote reading…) Take a tube in London and at least 2 or 3 of the commuters in the carriage will be reading a book or flicking through a newspaper. Take the skytrain in Bangok and you’ll be lucky if you see one reader. Most people are either staring into space or playing with their mobiles.
Maybe its a cultural thing. Back home, we’re taught that its good to read books, its relaxing, interesting, fun. In my infant school in England (Ok – this is going back 30 years or so) our reward for finishing our work early was to be able to sit in the book corner on a big comfy cushion and to play with the toys and picture books. At one school I taught in in Thailand, when primary school students finished their work early the teacher told them to ‘nang samarti’ (practise meditation…) in other words, sit still, in silence and do nothing… (hardly my idea of a reward) Taking a book (not that there were that many – and no nice ones – to take) and reading it was never suggested.
That was a poor rural school (and an old teacher, waiting for their pension) but, generally speaking, Thai teachers, in the Thai schools I’ve worked in don’t usually promote library based lessons, or do activities that will develop children’s interest in books.
Another reason is probably the actual books themselves. A lot of the books that are aimed at children are moralistic dross (eg. bad translations of aesop etc…) not the kind of stuff they would usually be interested in or actively want to read. When children are given the chance to choose books to read they tend to go for Japanese/Korean style comic pocketbooks, rather than longer stories. Maybe this is related to the fact that the sentences / phrases tend to be much shorter than usual (they’re in speech bubbles… so its easier to make out each phrase) and that, since its a written version of a conversation there are spaces (eg. after exclamation words like ‘wow’) in between some of the words????
Also, in many Thai schools there is still a lot of rote learning. Letters are to be memorised and chanted back to the teacher. Children are taught to read as a class. There are stories, of a kind… ‘the crow has eyes… the crow is in the field.. the crow is with his uncle in the field…’ These are written on a blackboard line for line, and students have to listen to and repeat each phrase until they can remember them all word for word. There are no pictures, and nothing to fuel the childrens imagination. The teacher asks no questions eg. what does the field look like? what does the uncle look like? that might make the students think about what they are saying. In this context reading, for most children is probably not something they find that stimulating or enjoyable.
Also, bear in mind that most written material is produced in the central Thai dialect, a language that a lot of people outside of Bangkok don’t usually speak, except at school, or in formal situations. I taught at a couple of schools in the north and most people, including the teachers spoke kam meuang. When I volunteered at a school in Issan, the teachers spoke Issan Thai or the local Put Thai dialect. For children to speak one language/dialect at home and then to have to read books in another can’t be easy. Sure a lot of the words are the same but the way that they are pronounced (and Thai is a fairly phonetic language) is not. For example, for a child to learn that ‘gin’ (said in a mid tone) ‘khao’ (said in a long falling tone) means to eat (and to be made to repeat this at school everyday), when they actually say ‘gin’ (in a rising tone) and ‘khao (in a short rising tone with the initial k sounding more like a ‘g’) in every day conversation must be confusing… and to see it written one way but know that it is spoken another, even more so.
I’ve no idea know how many novels/books etc. published in Thailand are written in local dialects ???? Maybe if people were able to buy books written in their own local language they’d be more likely to read them???
Also, I’m not sure how true this is but, when I stayed in the north I was told that traditionally Thai culture was very oral based, and that historically the only people who could read were people high up in society, monks and shamans (who were often former monks.) Locals learned about the news in other provinces/how to behave/folktales and stories etc. because Buddhist monks read palm leaf scriptures out to them. Even when ‘normal’ people started to became literate, they still tended to listen to others read things for them, rather than finding things out for themselves (I think this fits in with the idea of thai society being very heirarchical and people lower down not challenging authority etc…)
2. Thai Language syllabuses…
The Thai language syllabus of the language school in BKK where I studied a short evening course 5 years ago was also pretty nationalistic and right wing eg. We were supposed to learn about how great Rama V was, how how Thailand was never invaded (they ‘invited’ the Japanese in to help build a railway), how considerate and polite Thai people are – now, knowing what I do about kraeng jy, I kind of think its the opposite… neither polite nor considerate, and often more of an attempt to avoid being seen as being inconsiderate – how farmers are dumb and don’t want to be educated, how Taksin (this was pre-coup) was a bad leader as he was ‘selling’ the country to Singapore…
But, most of the things we studied (which the Thai teacher seemed to take as absolute truths) were no different from what most Thai school children have to study too. (Taksin aside…)Thai schools really teach this stuff and students, since they are told these facts by Thai teachers (who are never wrong), usually believe it without question.
3. Adding spaces
The Thai media tends to be fiercely posessive of everything Thai… Every year, (usually arounnd soonthorn Phu / Thai Langaue Day) there’s normally some group ranting off about how the Thai langauge is being destroyed… how todays teenagers are illiterate or about how they are ruining the beautiful Thai language with their use of farang words, ‘tinglish’ and text speak… Just the suggestion that they should think about adding spaces to make the language easier for non-Thais to understand would probably upset these people even more.
Nick Nostitz in translation
QUOTE(Nick Nostitz):”At the rally in Udon I noticed no journalists other than Red Shirt media. There was no TV coverage; no coverage of this event in any newspapers I know of. I wonder how it can be possible that such a large event can go completely unnoticed by the local media?”
Khun Terdsak Kungjinjan’s funeral rites aren’t worthy of any attention in the Thai press such is the sycophantic – servilely compliant – obsequious – deferential – loyally obedient nature of the Thai and English language media here.
In short – the powers to be tell them (the media) what to do and report and with few exceptions they report and do it – time and time again without question.
Anyway – thanks for reporting on this Nick. Your reports are – in my opinion – the definitive accounts of a rapidly changing political landscape. A great shame other media outlets here don’t share your enthusiasm or commitment to cover such important and monumental political developments.
A mass rally and a funeral
Excellent piece of reporting, Nick !
I admire the way you keep a polite posture in your responding messages at all times, even when certain posters seem to just simply try provoke a reaction from your side with the most pathetic anti-theses.
The 2006 Sarawak elections – Understanding a break in Barisan Nasional’s armour
THIS IS A HISTORIC MOMENT IN MALAYSIA. SARAWAKIANS CAN CHANGE HISTORY IF YOU VOTE WISELY ON 16 APRIL 2011. THIS IS THE TIME N SEASON TO CHANGE, JUST DO IT NOW N WE WILL HAVE A BETTER MALAYSIA
Thai ambassador to speak at ANU
Fascinating and unintentionally revealing letter from the Ambassador through the It’s Martino link.It strikes me as extraordinary that there is no English language quality control for letters produced for the public domain.The letter in addition to being barely literate reproduces to an almost embarrassing degree the royalist hysteria that is associated with some members of the Thai elite, but is of course ludicrously inappropriate for the wider Australian republic. Shouldn’t a more worldly wise operator take control? I’ve been looking at a number of Chinese Embassy public letters recently: the sophistication in relation to tone and audience is quite striking
Incidentally it’s fair enough to disagree with the Paul Handley book but it’s just fatuous to suggest it’s discredited
Reforming Thai language structure
Is sounds stupid, that “putting spaces between words” or “change system and structure of writing” in thai language can changes in the neurophysiological or socio-physiological or any mind set, that causes the way how thais think or increases thais rates of reading. No way! Change system and structure of writing that shows only one of resistance to authorities in writing technique.
I agree with previous comments that putting spaces between words and using punctuation can help writer and reader see each sentences; mass and individual, connection and sequence, that let them more attentive to subtleties of meaning. But that only in writing language.
In general point of view speaking and writing language are separated. In Thai language do not have such idea though they want to have it. Thais write similar to speaking mode (in official on in general). So Thai language is speaking language. But in thai, it can not separate both language usage. Obviously, writing base on speaking permanently. Unconsciously. It shows the way we speaking and talking in everyday. For this reason, such as, formal language (major thai usage), writing can show the way state try to control Thais mind more than show the way we thought. Yes, it reflect technique of cultural control by authorities.
Reforming Thai language structure
According to the United Nations Development Programme Report 2009, Thailands literacy rate is at 94.1 %. That means that 94.1 % of Thai adults are able to read a newspaper and other basic literature.
I would say that Thais not being great readers is a cultural thing, nothing at all to do with their ability to read their own language.
Perhaps if Thai used punctuation there would be a 100% literacy rate in Thailand!!!
Reforming Thai language structure
I am trying to take a metacognitive approach to one aspect of the Thai language. Is continuous script an impediment to reading fluency for the average Thai? If not why has it been abandoned elsewhere in the world? If it is then in whose interest is it to retain it?
Making understanding easier for foreigners would be a spin off of abandoning continuous script, not an aim.
There is a panel titled “Romanisation in Thai” at the International Conference of Thai Studies in July. http://www.lc.mahidol.ac.th/thaistudies2011/DeadlineExtended.htm
This is no doubt distinct from “Romanisation of Thai” but could provide an opportunity for informed debate on continuous script. Conference organisers are asking for papers on the subject and it would be really good if someone more competent than I who is reading this would consider submitting one.
On the other issue of language courses I nearly walked out of mine when the teacher informed the class that “Isaan people have smaller noses than the rest of us”(!)
Perhaps we should pause at this stage to consider Not the Nation’s take on government control of the Thai language.
http://notthenation.com/2010/07/ministry-of-communications-bans-over-2000-metaphors/
Reforming Thai language structure
After the communist take over in Laos in 1975 It was very difficult to get any material in the written language. Sure, there were translations of Lenin and Marx and the party newspaper. How exciting do ya reckon that was? Eventually, 2 books came out, one on Lao history and another on agriculture. In order to stay literate I chose the the one on agriculture, dreading the marxist historical diatribe. More fool me to think that marxism wouldn’t make it into agriculture. The point? Everywhere you turn in Thailand, its the royal family this, the royal family that. How exciting do ya reckon that is?
As for the Lao language, after several ravishings by various unrepresentitive governments, it is now damn near phonemic. This cannot of course be said about either Thai or English. This aspect is much more important than whether or not there are spaces between words or punctuation. Sheesh, next you’ll be demanding capitals at the begining of sentences. I’ve never known a literate Thai or a Lao to suffer brain disfunction while reading their respective scripts.
Pibun did of course try to clean up the Thai script in his own laughably inept fashion. It was an abomination that only that particular clown was capable of. When the amaat finally got control back, what was the reaction? That’s right, they stuffed more historical junk back into the script than had ever been there in the first place. They don’t call them reactionaries for nothing.
Tod Danials #7. My mum was one the bravest people I’ve ever known. In her autopsy there was no metion of her possessing the anotomical appendage that you equate with bravery. You should perhaps reconsider its place in your lexicon.
Tod Danials #9 You are right. Now the only interesting stuff in either Thai or Lao is on the web. Out there, there is much less official control so who knows where it will go. Unfortuately very few native Lao have access to it.
But spaces? Sounds like something Pibun would think up.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
[…] For example this is all the US State Department has to say on the dozens of people killed and thousands injured by the Thai Army in 2010’s Bangkok Massacre. […]
On Thailand’s submarine ambitions
Apart from all the “rational” and “strategic” and “foreign policy” arguments/discussions about how out-of-date 2nd hand submarines fit or don’t fit into the Thailand government’s overall plan, let’s face the truth here head on.
The primary reason for this particular “purchase” of 2nd hand submarines has more to do with the bank accounts and retirement funds of various Thai officials and Naval Officers than it has to do with any and all of the other more “rational” arguments.
Much like the GT 2000 empty black plastic boxes and “surveillance” blimp and to some degree the Gripen jet fighter planes. Such is the sad state of Thailand’s military structure.
On Thailand’s submarine ambitions
I read that the submarines under negotiation are ex-German navy U-206A diesel patrol submarines. These submarines have a displacement of 400-500 tonnes, and only carry torpedoes and mines. In submarine terms this is a lightweight. They do not have the same capabilities as the Kilo-class submarines Vietnam is rumored to be acquiring, or the Scorpene-class submarines of the Malaysian navy.
On Thailand’s submarine ambitions
tukkae – 8
the same argument goes now for Thailand – because the navy is weak.
Can’t use the same argument here because the situation then was the German was the aggressor and she wasn’t in the position to wait until the surface fleet become strong enough to go against the Allied Navy. They were rushing in to the international sea to hunt for the Allied shipping. On the other hand, we are in the peace time and the chance of even have to use preemptive strike might be close to none.
This boat type made of non-magnetic steel can still hide in the mud.
The only use for non-magnetic steel was not to hide from sonar, but to reduce the chance of activating the magnetic mine. The noise level on the other hand, is the major factor in determine how stealthy the submarine is. No matter what your submarine is made of its still suspect to be detect by active sonar. Furthermore the gulf of Thailand is very shallow (mean dept of 45 m and maximum at 80 m) that it is almost impossible to hide anything there.
Then again, I think the main argument is not “whether it is possible to buy a submarine” but rather “is it necessary now”. At least with frigate you can still use to for surface patrol to hunt for illegal activity like drug smuggling and what no but you can’t use the submarine for the same purpose.
Reforming Thai language structure
Sorry, I didn’t mean to come off soo defensive especially in regards to defending anything ‘Thai’ 555+. They can do that on their own.
I’ve found I can comprehend, understand, and glean the meaning out of most things I routinely read in Thai. Conversely, if a topic doesn’t interest me I could read it 10 times and not make heads or tails outta it.
There are more than just a few Thai words which when seen in written Thai equal out to a “,” or a pause between parts of a sentence. Sentences are also routinely separated by at single space, but I’ve seen double spaced stuff too. Paragraphs while not always indented are at least usually delineated.
FWIW: languages are ‘living entities’ and evolve based on useage by the people who speak them. I am NO fan of the Thai language purists who insist it’s a benefit to be able to read 400 y/o thai inscriptions like it was written yesterday. That to me is a stagnant language and one doomed to die a slow death in todays ever changing world.
Even a brief perusal of web-forums written in Thai shows how the younger generation is modifying the language to better suit their needs in the inter-connected world we now live in. Using real punctuation, changing spellings to facilitate faster typing or to more closely replicate the spoken pronunciation, abbreviations and slang are all advancing at an astonishing pace out there via M-speak or chat-speak. I dunno that Thais will ever start to space words out, and frankly don’t care all that much, but I am all for a language evolving to meet the needs of the people speaking it. Now should a language evolve simply to make it easier for foreigners who read it have the ability to understand it better; Hmmm no, not so much.
(Yeah sorry about using engrish, I routinely use that spelling so it I don’t hafta capitalize it. Being a native English speaker I don’t see a lot worng , err wrong with it…)
And once again, sorry for the defensive tone of my original post. Thanx for posting it though…
Reforming Thai language structure
Tod (7)
There really is no need to be so defensive. I doubt anybody here is attacking you personally, real name or not.
My point was not that a lack of punctuation affects meaning; rather, that the lack of punctuation affects comprehension. There is a difference, and I’m not sure you have grasped this distinction.
Punctuation can indeed be used to convey meaning, but its much more common use is to improve comprehension. It’s a fact that a well-punctuated narrative using words, sentences and paragraphs is easier to read than a dense and unpunctuated block of text. As a newspaper editor I spend the best part of my day making it so.
Written Thai does not make use of punctuation. It does, as you say, use particular words for meaning, such as р╣Др╕лр╕б, but this is common to most languages that I know of, including English (e.g. “right?”, “isn’t it?”). These extra words in Thai do indeed convey meaning, but they are not punctuation, and are not intended as a replacement for punctuation as far as I can see. Rather, they are a function of the spoken language and serve no additional function in written Thai (as opposed to punctuation in English, for example). The use of tone in spoken Thai also famously conveys meaning, but that hardly negates the need for punctuation in written Thai either.
I’m afraid the the lack of punctuation in written Thai seems to me to be more a case of not having got round to it yet, to its detriment, rather than some self-regulating compensation mechanism nherent in its alphabet, as you imply.
I see you’ve written “engrish” (sic) on at least three occasions which, sadly, rules out typographical error as a plausible explanation. I shudder to think of the alternatives.
On Thailand’s submarine ambitions
Tarrin – the same argument goes now for Thailand – because the navy is weak.
I agree that technology advanced but you cannot make a few hundred tons of steel completely undetectable. This boat type made of non-magnetic steel can still hide in the mud.
As I mentioned above, the most dramatic development is in electric storage technology. So it is easy to suggest the Thais replace the heavy and outdated batteries at the end of their livespan with something much more effective for the electric underwater drive.
Some similarity to a car. If the battery is finished, you won’t throw the whole car away…
Are you a citizen of Thailand
No, I’m German…
Zarni comes out firing at Burma experts, again
one more –
Why the ICG’s Burma analyses and calls for ending sanctions cannot be taken seriously
By Maung Zarni
Published on April 11, 2011
When the European Union policy makers meet to review the EU Common Policy on Burma, they would be wise to treat the International Crisis Group’s (ICG) latest report on Burma titled ‘Myanmar’s Post-election Landscape’ with a huge grain of salt and disregard its call, in effect, for the unconditional embrace of the country’s military dictatorship by lifting sanctions, normalizing aid relations and promoting trade and investment.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2011/04/11/opinion/Why-the-ICGs-Burma-analyses-and-calls-for-ending-s-30152934.html
Marking April 10 in Sydney
c2
Not sure about the final total of killed. There was a confusing list (graphic) of 25 “casualties” – many but not all specifically noted as dead – published in The Nation. See http://www.nationmultimedia.com/admin/specials/sound/file/Apr10Casualties.pdf
I doubt this list is complete or final. If nothing else, if it does include “wounded” then some of the wounds identified are clearly critical and could well have led to death later.