That said, I’m completely in favor of an election. The earlier we witness the hollow promise of PT the better.
Hate to say this but I totally agree with this statement, I really have to hope with any political party as of now, not because I think democracy in Thailand is hopeless but because Thailand is not yet a full fledge democratic country yet so having election is not going to change anything here. However, I will go out and cast my vote, because I hate the PAD so much so I don’t want them to claim my “no vate” as their own.
I don’t see this deal as totally out of touch and reasonable priced.
Look at the used cars market and compare with decade old Benzes running for many years to come if well maintained.
Even if some components are at the end of their lifespan, replacement of outdated devices and an “upgrade” comes at reasonable cost. For the electric underwater drive, just look at your mobile and notebook how batteries developed the past decades.
As the “Sentinel” mentioned these subs were designed to operate in the siminar shallow Baltic Sea.
They are made of amagnetic steel and are not easily detected. There is the story of one Argentinian sub of this type that kept the Royal Navy on high alert during Falkland War. It was only inexperience of the crew that there was no hit on target.
Well said.
It’s interesting (to me anyway) that most of those here on NM clamouring for ‘Democracy’ in Thailand seem to want a win by Pui Thai.
If this does happen, then the military will be duty bound to intervene for the sake of the country. Thaksin and his Chinese cronies cannot be allowed to rape the country again.
So, it seems to me, that if the people here truly do want to see Democracy in Thailand, then they should favour a Democrat win such that the Democrats can govern with a solid majority in their own right.
The reason Abhisit, and Chuan before him could do little to control corruption was they had to satisfy minority parties which are inherently corrupt, effectively dragging the entire administration down to the lowest common denominator.
A stable Democrat government for the next 4 years would be a very good thing for Thailand.
Generally speaking, people have here a different relationship to corpses than in most western societies. As you can see – even taking images in these situations is perfectly permitted. If the family would not have wanted me to to take photos (or if i would have sensed that this would have been uncomfortable for the family) – i would not have taken these images. Other family members have taken photos as well there.
“Mike W.”
I hope you are not suggesting that i purposely faked this story. I haven’t. Doing so would not just be against any professional ethics, it could easily cost me my press card and my work permit, and could get me deported from Thailand.
The same way – accusing me that i fake stories could earn the accuser a libel case, if i would feel inclined to file one.
To reach the Udon Lover’s radio station one does not need to cross Udon City and jam the city, the easiest approach route is via the highway. Red Shirts did not just come from Udon City, but from all over the province, from many other Isarn provinces, and even from as far as Bangkok.
My calculation of people attending is quite transparent – the plot of land is 18 Rai, i deduct 2 Rai for stage and shops, that leaves 16 rai, which makes 25 thousand something square meters. I count 2.5 people per square meter (some count even 3 or 4, but i am a bit more conservative in my count), which results in slightly more than 60 000 people. Given that there many people sitting in the surrounding plots as well, and that there was a constant coming and going – i came to this number.
To confirm if this rally took place i would suggest to ask police, or even better – drive to the radio station and ask there directly.
The 91 dead included reporters, soldiers as well as protestors and not all dead protestors were red leaning. Such an error in wording only creates opportunity for criticism and should be avoided to best advance a cause.
With the inclusion of Sanoh Thienthong in any future coalition, we can be rest-assured that it will be corruption,kleptocracy and nepotism as usual, in addition to sufficient cosmetic populist measures to cement the foundations for (just) another different faction of the squabbling successsionists. Anyone with delusions of reform or revolution is going to be hugely disappointed. And once they have secured their desired snoutspace in the exchequer pigtrough, it will be back to silencing critics with the use of off-duty policemen. In other words, pretty much what we already have. And pretty much what we have lived through with Thaksin already.
That said, I’m completely in favor of an election. The earlier we witness the hollow promise of PT the better.
why do you think keepomg Thaksin out of Thailand is an important factor?
is it because you (and the elites) think that he has the popularity and personal capability so that with the authority of the people he will successfully challenge the rule of Thailand by the military and elites?
or is he perhaps seen just as a rallying point for the majority and the military/elites want to be able to repress in peace and quiet?
or is he just a black beast that the military/elites want to maintain as a convenient scapegoat to distract people while they continue their corrupt lives?
HMMM – Interesting. I live in Udon Thani and no one in my family and people I have asked know nothing of that ‘Red Shirt Rally’ or of cheap ‘Red Phones’ or ‘Red Radios’…
For certain a crowd of 80,000 would have impacted Udon traffic, because that is more people than the entire population of Udon Thani…
I grew up in Malaysia and through the encouragement from a close friend and perseverance, I wangled a university education in the U.S., arriving here in 1979 at the ripe age of 21. I have lived here ever since and have become a well respected professional, something I had not even dreamed of in Malaysia. While I can identify with many of the comments previously posted and my decision not to return to Malaysia has a lot of commonality with them, I am sure that every individual has unique reasons for not returning to the land of their birth. For a long time, when asked if I was Chinese, I would reply “Yes, by way of Malaysia.” – a way of clarifying that while I was ethnically Chinese, I was from Malaysia, not mainland China or Taiwan. I did so only to provide a precisely correct answer, not because I was proud to be a Malaysian. I have never been proud to have been a Malaysian citizen, having recognized from an early age that I was really a second class citizen therefore my citizenship wasn’t all that important. How can you feel any loyalty to a country that denies opportunities to those who work hard so that they can be larded onto others solely by virtue of their race. Worse, when one of those that they have denied these opportunities achieves recognition abroad solely due to their own endeavors, the government claims them as their own. How cynical. By contrast, I am proud to be an American citizen because I believe in the ideals of its founding and if called, I will defend this country, my country, with my life.
My political awareness occurred late in life, during George W. Bush’s presidency. I saw in Bush what it meant to have a political leader who loved his country and the citizens of that country. That doesn’t mean that I agreed with everything that he did, but for the first time, I saw what it was like to have a statesman as the country’s leader, not a politician. Since then, I have seen that many of our former presidents did what they thought was best for this country, not necessarily what was best for themselves personally or for their political party. This is what courage is about. Of course there were presidents who governed purely in a more politically calculative manner.
However, I digress. My intent was not to discuss politics, so I will not, although I needed to do so in order to explain the reasons I decided not to return to Malaysia. It can all be boiled down to the fact that I, like so many who have posted their comments here, felt unwelcomed in Malaysia. The discrimination was and is blatant. Worse than that, it is not only sanctioned by the government, it is government mandated. While I applaud those who are dedicated to the struggle to reform the counter-productive and human resource wasting policies, it must be done with realistic views of the challenges and not simply idealistic views. Fundamentally, the Malaysian Constitution and its many amendments do not promote the ideals that would allow any meaningful reform to take place. Contrast that to the founding principles of the United States, enshrined in the following excerpt from the U.S. Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. – that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”. In that sentence are two basic principles that will never be adopted in Malaysia: that everybody is created by God and are therefore equal; that the government only exists by the will of the citizens. Additionally, that the government’s sole purpose is to serve its citizens (“…a government of the people, by the people and for the people.”).
It would take a miracle for equal protection under the law and non-discrimination to be written into the Malaysian constitution because the levers of power will forever be in the hands of the Bumiputras. A side effect of the brain drain is to change the racial make-up of the country in the favor of the Bumis. The fact that they refer to themselves as the Sons of the Earth should be a dead giveaway as to why they will never give up the levers of power to the “pendatang”. The fact that I can trace my ancestry to the Nonyas and Babas who arrived in Malaysia in the 1400s means nothing to these Sons of the Earth. Here in my adopted country, I am free. Free in ways that those who have never experienced it cannot even begin to imagine. Of course there will always be those who are ignorant and prejudiced, but these are individual failings, not a failing of the society or country at large. It has been said that when people fear the government, it is a tyranny; when the government fears the people, it is liberty. Non-Bumiputra Malaysians, do you fear your government?
May be – just may be – the outlines of an accommodation, a modus vivendi, among Thailand’s elite, via the forthcoming elections, is starting to appear on the horizon.
It may look something like this : Peua Thai are allowed to win and form a government – probably in alliance with Snoh Thienthong’s party ( who could switch support at any time).
But on the strict condition Thaksin stays out of Thailand, something he’d be well advised to do for his own personal safety. http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/231027/thaksin-begins-puea-thai-campaign
A couple of questions about Burmese and other slave labour in the Thai fishing industry would be pertinent and welcome. And by slave labour, I don’t mean wage slavery, I mean slavery. See here http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=21084
Is it okay in Thai and Lao culture to see a deceased body, even if the condition of the body is highly decomposed, at funeral? I remember attending a Lao funeral of a Monk and the coffin was open.
Please correct the factual error in your opening sentence. The Chatham House, unlike ASEAN and ICG, does not call for, nor does it have an official stance on Burma. You can verify this with the Chatham House administration yourself.
That said, please have a look at these two links – the intellectually dishonest or incompetent or both – of the ICG reporting on my country. ICG’s latest report on Burma will surely make Gaddafi’s academic whitewashers cringe.
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A mass rally and a funeral
Mike W. – have a look by yourself. Some youtube-clips from Udon are listed below. Even in the darkness you will see more than a few people:
Jatuporn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg9rt-Cu5sI
Nattawut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6FzS_DYOB4
and a lesser known face – Thai Parliament Vice President Aphiwan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cifhYvavZ1k
Is an election the answer for Thailand?
Reg – 33
That said, I’m completely in favor of an election. The earlier we witness the hollow promise of PT the better.
Hate to say this but I totally agree with this statement, I really have to hope with any political party as of now, not because I think democracy in Thailand is hopeless but because Thailand is not yet a full fledge democratic country yet so having election is not going to change anything here. However, I will go out and cast my vote, because I hate the PAD so much so I don’t want them to claim my “no vate” as their own.
On Thailand’s submarine ambitions
I don’t see this deal as totally out of touch and reasonable priced.
Look at the used cars market and compare with decade old Benzes running for many years to come if well maintained.
Even if some components are at the end of their lifespan, replacement of outdated devices and an “upgrade” comes at reasonable cost. For the electric underwater drive, just look at your mobile and notebook how batteries developed the past decades.
As the “Sentinel” mentioned these subs were designed to operate in the siminar shallow Baltic Sea.
They are made of amagnetic steel and are not easily detected. There is the story of one Argentinian sub of this type that kept the Royal Navy on high alert during Falkland War. It was only inexperience of the crew that there was no hit on target.
Is an election the answer for Thailand?
Reg – 34
Well said.
It’s interesting (to me anyway) that most of those here on NM clamouring for ‘Democracy’ in Thailand seem to want a win by Pui Thai.
If this does happen, then the military will be duty bound to intervene for the sake of the country. Thaksin and his Chinese cronies cannot be allowed to rape the country again.
So, it seems to me, that if the people here truly do want to see Democracy in Thailand, then they should favour a Democrat win such that the Democrats can govern with a solid majority in their own right.
The reason Abhisit, and Chuan before him could do little to control corruption was they had to satisfy minority parties which are inherently corrupt, effectively dragging the entire administration down to the lowest common denominator.
A stable Democrat government for the next 4 years would be a very good thing for Thailand.
A mass rally and a funeral
”For certain a crowd of 80,000 would have impacted Udon traffic, because that is more people than the entire population of Udon Thani…”
Some comments just make you want to smile.
A mass rally and a funeral
“Nok”:
Generally speaking, people have here a different relationship to corpses than in most western societies. As you can see – even taking images in these situations is perfectly permitted. If the family would not have wanted me to to take photos (or if i would have sensed that this would have been uncomfortable for the family) – i would not have taken these images. Other family members have taken photos as well there.
“Mike W.”
I hope you are not suggesting that i purposely faked this story. I haven’t. Doing so would not just be against any professional ethics, it could easily cost me my press card and my work permit, and could get me deported from Thailand.
The same way – accusing me that i fake stories could earn the accuser a libel case, if i would feel inclined to file one.
To reach the Udon Lover’s radio station one does not need to cross Udon City and jam the city, the easiest approach route is via the highway. Red Shirts did not just come from Udon City, but from all over the province, from many other Isarn provinces, and even from as far as Bangkok.
My calculation of people attending is quite transparent – the plot of land is 18 Rai, i deduct 2 Rai for stage and shops, that leaves 16 rai, which makes 25 thousand something square meters. I count 2.5 people per square meter (some count even 3 or 4, but i am a bit more conservative in my count), which results in slightly more than 60 000 people. Given that there many people sitting in the surrounding plots as well, and that there was a constant coming and going – i came to this number.
To confirm if this rally took place i would suggest to ask police, or even better – drive to the radio station and ask there directly.
Marking April 10 in Sydney
The 91 dead included reporters, soldiers as well as protestors and not all dead protestors were red leaning. Such an error in wording only creates opportunity for criticism and should be avoided to best advance a cause.
Is an election the answer for Thailand?
With the inclusion of Sanoh Thienthong in any future coalition, we can be rest-assured that it will be corruption,kleptocracy and nepotism as usual, in addition to sufficient cosmetic populist measures to cement the foundations for (just) another different faction of the squabbling successsionists. Anyone with delusions of reform or revolution is going to be hugely disappointed. And once they have secured their desired snoutspace in the exchequer pigtrough, it will be back to silencing critics with the use of off-duty policemen. In other words, pretty much what we already have. And pretty much what we have lived through with Thaksin already.
That said, I’m completely in favor of an election. The earlier we witness the hollow promise of PT the better.
Is an election the answer for Thailand?
Chris Beale #33
why do you think keepomg Thaksin out of Thailand is an important factor?
is it because you (and the elites) think that he has the popularity and personal capability so that with the authority of the people he will successfully challenge the rule of Thailand by the military and elites?
or is he perhaps seen just as a rallying point for the majority and the military/elites want to be able to repress in peace and quiet?
or is he just a black beast that the military/elites want to maintain as a convenient scapegoat to distract people while they continue their corrupt lives?
Monitoring the dirtiest elections ever
Check your facts. The final ruling was by the U.S. Supreme Court and Jeb Bush had no part to play in any of this.
A mass rally and a funeral
HMMM – Interesting. I live in Udon Thani and no one in my family and people I have asked know nothing of that ‘Red Shirt Rally’ or of cheap ‘Red Phones’ or ‘Red Radios’…
For certain a crowd of 80,000 would have impacted Udon traffic, because that is more people than the entire population of Udon Thani…
Why is Malaysia experiencing a brain drain?
I grew up in Malaysia and through the encouragement from a close friend and perseverance, I wangled a university education in the U.S., arriving here in 1979 at the ripe age of 21. I have lived here ever since and have become a well respected professional, something I had not even dreamed of in Malaysia. While I can identify with many of the comments previously posted and my decision not to return to Malaysia has a lot of commonality with them, I am sure that every individual has unique reasons for not returning to the land of their birth. For a long time, when asked if I was Chinese, I would reply “Yes, by way of Malaysia.” – a way of clarifying that while I was ethnically Chinese, I was from Malaysia, not mainland China or Taiwan. I did so only to provide a precisely correct answer, not because I was proud to be a Malaysian. I have never been proud to have been a Malaysian citizen, having recognized from an early age that I was really a second class citizen therefore my citizenship wasn’t all that important. How can you feel any loyalty to a country that denies opportunities to those who work hard so that they can be larded onto others solely by virtue of their race. Worse, when one of those that they have denied these opportunities achieves recognition abroad solely due to their own endeavors, the government claims them as their own. How cynical. By contrast, I am proud to be an American citizen because I believe in the ideals of its founding and if called, I will defend this country, my country, with my life.
My political awareness occurred late in life, during George W. Bush’s presidency. I saw in Bush what it meant to have a political leader who loved his country and the citizens of that country. That doesn’t mean that I agreed with everything that he did, but for the first time, I saw what it was like to have a statesman as the country’s leader, not a politician. Since then, I have seen that many of our former presidents did what they thought was best for this country, not necessarily what was best for themselves personally or for their political party. This is what courage is about. Of course there were presidents who governed purely in a more politically calculative manner.
However, I digress. My intent was not to discuss politics, so I will not, although I needed to do so in order to explain the reasons I decided not to return to Malaysia. It can all be boiled down to the fact that I, like so many who have posted their comments here, felt unwelcomed in Malaysia. The discrimination was and is blatant. Worse than that, it is not only sanctioned by the government, it is government mandated. While I applaud those who are dedicated to the struggle to reform the counter-productive and human resource wasting policies, it must be done with realistic views of the challenges and not simply idealistic views. Fundamentally, the Malaysian Constitution and its many amendments do not promote the ideals that would allow any meaningful reform to take place. Contrast that to the founding principles of the United States, enshrined in the following excerpt from the U.S. Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. – that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”. In that sentence are two basic principles that will never be adopted in Malaysia: that everybody is created by God and are therefore equal; that the government only exists by the will of the citizens. Additionally, that the government’s sole purpose is to serve its citizens (“…a government of the people, by the people and for the people.”).
It would take a miracle for equal protection under the law and non-discrimination to be written into the Malaysian constitution because the levers of power will forever be in the hands of the Bumiputras. A side effect of the brain drain is to change the racial make-up of the country in the favor of the Bumis. The fact that they refer to themselves as the Sons of the Earth should be a dead giveaway as to why they will never give up the levers of power to the “pendatang”. The fact that I can trace my ancestry to the Nonyas and Babas who arrived in Malaysia in the 1400s means nothing to these Sons of the Earth. Here in my adopted country, I am free. Free in ways that those who have never experienced it cannot even begin to imagine. Of course there will always be those who are ignorant and prejudiced, but these are individual failings, not a failing of the society or country at large. It has been said that when people fear the government, it is a tyranny; when the government fears the people, it is liberty. Non-Bumiputra Malaysians, do you fear your government?
A mass rally and a funeral
Excellent report Nick. Good to see you covering what is happening in Udon. Congratulations.
Is an election the answer for Thailand?
May be – just may be – the outlines of an accommodation, a modus vivendi, among Thailand’s elite, via the forthcoming elections, is starting to appear on the horizon.
It may look something like this : Peua Thai are allowed to win and form a government – probably in alliance with Snoh Thienthong’s party ( who could switch support at any time).
But on the strict condition Thaksin stays out of Thailand, something he’d be well advised to do for his own personal safety.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/231027/thaksin-begins-puea-thai-campaign
Thai ambassador to speak at ANU
http://www.newmandala.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ambassador-letter-in-response.pdf
Thai ambassador to speak at ANU
A couple of questions about Burmese and other slave labour in the Thai fishing industry would be pertinent and welcome. And by slave labour, I don’t mean wage slavery, I mean slavery. See here http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=21084
A mass rally and a funeral
Is it okay in Thai and Lao culture to see a deceased body, even if the condition of the body is highly decomposed, at funeral? I remember attending a Lao funeral of a Monk and the coffin was open.
William Young dies in Thailand
Good background Here:
http://www.tomvater.com/laos/william-young-is-dead-cia-killer-shoots-himself-in-chiang-mai/
Thai ambassador to speak at ANU
555! I must be going crazy. In my first very hasty glance, I read the topic as “Internet Law & the Suppression of Modern-day Privacy.”
Sanctioning Burma’s prospects
Dear Ms Menager,
Please correct the factual error in your opening sentence. The Chatham House, unlike ASEAN and ICG, does not call for, nor does it have an official stance on Burma. You can verify this with the Chatham House administration yourself.
That said, please have a look at these two links – the intellectually dishonest or incompetent or both – of the ICG reporting on my country. ICG’s latest report on Burma will surely make Gaddafi’s academic whitewashers cringe.
http://www.himalmag.com/component/content/article/4383-outrageously-optimistic.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/MA05Ae01.html
Thank you very much.
Kind Regards,
zarni