Najib has come out on top. Controversy notwithstanding, he emerged from the visit having reacted lukewarm at best at PM Gillard’s East Timor refugee processing centre plan. He further undermined the project, putting forward his navy’s successes in interdicting vessels heading to Australia, then suggesting Australia may wish to assist these efforts by providing Malaysia, and other ‘front line countries’, with more equipment. Meanwhile, Australia is doing a diplomatic doorknock, trying to muster up support for the East Timor plan.
Just when you think you must have seen just about everything, along comes “Tony” (Mr Cartalucci, I assume?) with ANU also being part of the fiendish globalist conspiracy.
Nich/Andrew – could you spare just a bit of your ICG/Chatham House/et al funding for a poor retiree here in Thailand?
I really want to contribute something here but my knowledge is limited to what already been said. Furthermore, there are those “silent upraise” or “silent coup” events that have very little documentation to the point where I think its almost suit the description of rumor rather than actual event. Like what polo said, during early 1980s there were so many of such attempt but very little documentation.
Dear Aiontay, Thailand has about 70-75 % Thai and 30 % other ethnic groups. Why did not the Shan, Mon and Karen on their side rebel except the Malay in the southern provinces? So are the Ginphaw or Kachin in Yunnan Province of PRC. Now look at the Wa (Va for China). They remain quiet in China, but rebellious and boisterous on Burma’s side! After all, the Kachin should not complain as they got Myitkyina and Bhamo from Burma Proper to be included in the Kachin State. The ethnic rebellions in Burma are somewhat arbitrary based on their petty chauvinism since 1948. Now all the people or the ethnic groups including the Burman (Bamar) are suffering under the military dictatorship.Whose fault is it?
Are we getting anywhere with this list? why I made my two posts is because the coups are not only a matter of palace intrigue and corruption of state, but they effect the people.
Thai social movements, although less prominent, can turn violent as all other avenues for peaceful change are exhausted. Thailand in 2010 was at a crossroads.
Participants in former social movements squashed by the Thai military (ex., Kao Ko Monument glorifies Air Force General Arthit Kamlangeak) tend to seek new bases and forms for resistance. I assume it ruffles someone’s feathers that in the case of the Hmong in
Thailand, Christianity offered a new base. That is a fact. If you want to bear that out statistically, look at the statistics of the 12th District of the Church of Christ in Thailand. or look herehttp://www.christiansiam.com/Church/Country/North/Phetchabun.html It compares the number of Hmong in Thailand who were Christians before 1960 (0) and after 1980 with the emergence of 45 new churches. It was Hmong Christians from Laos who held this discussion with their Thai kin at that time. There were no foreign or Thai missionaries active there at the time. Similar movement of social resistance to Thai government appeared among the Northern Thai groups I worked with for 15 years. Why resist? Land grabs, deforestation, lack of educational opportunities and other forms of state-sponsored repression (ex., local officials refusing to provide identification cards to people who have lived there for 100 years)
I think that the residue of injustice and resistance scattered across the North and Northeast explains why the Red Shirts could emerge so quickly and powerfully, yet still have disparate agendas among the participating groups. These forms of collective memory of Thai people are interesting to me but certainly not surprising. Those who try to say that the Red Shirts are merely pro-Thaksin have no historical memory.
Additionally, Nick you admit yourself that you didn’t see everything and that you lacked the courage to get the evidence you need to make such lofty accusations. Where are the photos of ONE dead protester let alone 6???
Officially, ZERO protesters died in 2009. If you have no evidence, you cannot make such claims. Protester accounts do not constitute “evidence” because I can just as easily claim I was there and they are all liars. How could you prove any of what I just said?
Additionally, we do have evidence that the UDD was armed. Sean Boonpracong, UDD’s official spokesman made a comment that the army was shooting at unarmed protesters so the UDD had to shoot back with their pistols. Yes, that is same-sentence contradicting – something Boonpracong is famous for – and indeed 2 bystanders were murdered/gunned down by UDD protesters while trying to protect their property from the looting and mayhem.
Now I am well aware of the fact that many red shirt sympathizers claim the entire riot was Thai soldiers dressed up in Red Shirts fighting themselves … perhaps even some holographic projectors and robots as well? Maybe it was all shot on a stage – while the real UDD was singing “Kumbaya?”
Let’s not forget the thousands of eye witness accounts coming from residents who came out to confront the violent mobs – which is actually backed up with photographic and video evidence… or is it easier for you to just not mention those at all? New Mandala is clearly operating under motives other than objectivity and truth. The constant litany of lies and propaganda published here derides not only its own legitimacy but that of ANU as well.
It’s becoming more widely recognized that universities are operating more in the interest of large corporations and globalism – than that of academia, knowledge, and the people.
What absolute rubbish. “I have no evidence.” Good, glad you can admit that – too bad you decided to draw conclusions anyway – and you’ve obviously picked sides, as New Mandala has as well. This is the last snuffing out of your credibility.
Thanks for making it completely clear how illegitimate and what ZERO mandate these protesters are operating from – and how all the accusations are based on “no evidence” or evidence produced by a paid foreign lawyer.
The red shirts were created by Thaksin, they are still led by Thaksin, and attempts to mimic other social network driven protests out there come from the US STATE DEPARTMENT and the US funded CANVAS out of Serbia – not rice farmers, degenerate gamblers and 3rd grade educated alcoholics, communists, globalist “academia” and nihilists that make up the bulk of UDD’s ranks.
Prachatai is directly funded 1.5 million/year by the US National Endowment for Democracy, which is chaired by some of the most depraved “neo-cons” in the US government – yes the people that brought us the Iraq/Afghan wars and hope to bring us many more. Simply check the “Board of Directors” at NED’s website if you don’t believe it.
Mull that over for a while. Can you guess what they really want from Thailand? How about a signed FTA? How about complete market liberalization? How about the ability to exploit and destroy Thai society like they’ve done throughout South America, the Middle East and are now cannibalizing their own economies??? If you care about Thailand and its people, you need to work on technical solutions, not political ones backed by dubious parties like Thaksin, PTP, and his foreign backers.
These protests are self-serving, exploiting the people – not helping them. And as always, besides socialist handouts, the reds have ZERO program. Trading in servile dependence to ANY political party for socialist handouts is not freedom or democracy – it is a form of slavery, albeit a gilded form.
Not only did U Nu manage to provide a reason for the Kachin and later Shan to challenge the imbalance and inequities of his AFPFL rump Socialist Party rule, in the 1960 election campaign he rekindled another communal strife by wooing the Muslims from Northern Arakan townships for their votes recognising them with a newly coined term Rohingya.
U Nu’s electioneering for power used both religion and race at the expense of the nation’s future. His legacy sadly is an enduring military rule whose raison d’├кtre remains holding the union together – an indictment, almost impossible to shake off, on politicians and civilian rule.
Why should i pay attention to the result of your interviews when they counter everything that i have seen, that my colleagues have seen, and that all the Red Shirts (and some of the Blue Shirts, and some military officers) i have known for years, and who have been there, have seen, when we discussed the events?
Thailand has never had as large a percentage of ethnic minorities as Burma. I’d say your first paragraph pretty much encapsulates why
Burma as a whole continues to suffer from a military regime and why the minorities continue to rebel.
During the Thaksin mafia reign, it was Potjaman Shinawatra who was directly ‘in charge’ of the family business; and, Potjaman Shinawatra was in charge of “billings and collections.” And yes, Potjaman Shinawatra was the paymaster too . . . every Thai Rak Thai Party (the outlawed Thaksin party) member received their monthly stipends from Potjaman.
I’m prepared to suggest that had I written the exact same comment above (25) using using a Thai name and written in Thinglish, the thumbs up/down equation would be reversed.
that a strange attitude Nick: “I do not pay much attention to your interviews – i was there, i have photographed the whole event…”: a [photo-]journalist should learn to listen and talk to participants among those demonstrating, rather than stand from some vantage point and “click-click” -assume that s/he knows or sees everything! I was also at red shirt events since the very beginning and do not claim to know or see everything, unlike you; can you see everything from your lens? In my view it is better as a participant-observer than to create a journalistic sensation over what was and continues to be quite frankly a human tragedy.
[…] and Protected Areas Management Project. (The image about is taken from a World Bank poster, produced under the BPAMP project.) The project ran between 2000 and 2007, and was supposed to: develop an effective national […]
You have the events in Pattaya completely confused. The Blue Shirts indeed attacked the Red Shirts (first attack on the 1oth in the evening, second time when a mass of red shirts arrived on the 11th), but retreated when outnumbered at one entry route, at another a violent conflict was prevented through negotiations, when Red Shirts retreated and moved to the Hotel through a different, open route.
But the Hotel incursion happened hours after, the clashes with the Blue Shirts were completely over. The Blue Shirts at no point pushed the Red Shirts into a “confined space”. There was no “confined space”. There was no panic under Red Shirts, the plan by Newin (and Suthep, and the Supreme Command) went completely to shit, and the reasons why i have elaborated on in my book.
The Red Shirts sat for several hours in front of the Hotel while Arisaman held a press conference inside the Hotel with a sack of blue shirts the Red Shirts found on the way to the Hotel.
Red Shirts stormed into the Hotel grounds (some of them have been resting already at the hotel golf course), and pressed against the entry door, which broke.
I have all this documented by photos, and with my text, in my book.
Honestly, i do not pay much attention to your interviews – i was there, i have photographed the whole event, starting from the Blue Shirts marching up through the military lines. I know what i have seen.
I don’t understand your confusion over April 2009. There was Pattaya, and there was the attacks in the Ministry of Interior on April 12 (i missed the attack against Abhisist, but i was present when Nipon Prompan’s car was attacked by Red Shirts (see my book, or my account from New Mandala). Then there was April 13 – the dispersal, and last where the clashes between Red Shirts and local residents/PAD at Yommarat and Nang Loern in the evning/night from of the 13th and 14th.
There are doubts over who placed the the gas trucks, but there is no doubt over the burning of the buses – this were not “Blue Shirts” in Red Shirt disguise – it was Red Shirts. Again – i was there, i have seen numerous buses being burned by Red Shirts, and that includes people i have known for a long time. I know what i have seen myself. I have followed this whole thing on the ground since late 2005, and was both physically and mentally present at most clashes from then until now, as you can see in my articles published here in New Mandala, and in both of my published books on this conflict, and later in my future books.
I may be quite critical of the state and the present government, but that does not mean that i have to follow every single statement of the Red Shirt stages. I am a journalist – i witness myself, follow facts, and corroborate information.
Read my book, please, most of your questions will be answered there.
Can’t help but wonder to what degree these results are skewed by nepotism, or by the phenomenon of Thai businesses funded and quietly operated by male foreigners with the listed managing director being a Thai wife or with a female accountant or custodial director.
Grant Thornton offers little in way of a detailed methodology underpinning the statistics they choose to promulgate.
not sure of what event you are talking about in “April” Nick? Evidence from participants (interviewed), Arisman, and video footage indicates that the organised rabble of blue shirts blocked and attacked red shirts pushing them back, under the cover of army & police, into a confined space and on the way to the Royal Beach Hotel…This was never disputed, so I am not sure as a photojournalist which part of the event you were actually documenting? Furthermore, it was the blue shirts who attacked red shirts first, created a panic as part of a plan conceived by Newin (as with his “bus” burning and purchase project) under direction from @#$% Informants also said in recorded interviews that this was not spontaneous but appeared to be well orchestrated.
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Some Australians not impressed with Najib Razak
Najib has come out on top. Controversy notwithstanding, he emerged from the visit having reacted lukewarm at best at PM Gillard’s East Timor refugee processing centre plan. He further undermined the project, putting forward his navy’s successes in interdicting vessels heading to Australia, then suggesting Australia may wish to assist these efforts by providing Malaysia, and other ‘front line countries’, with more equipment. Meanwhile, Australia is doing a diplomatic doorknock, trying to muster up support for the East Timor plan.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
Just when you think you must have seen just about everything, along comes “Tony” (Mr Cartalucci, I assume?) with ANU also being part of the fiendish globalist conspiracy.
Nich/Andrew – could you spare just a bit of your ICG/Chatham House/et al funding for a poor retiree here in Thailand?
Counting Thailand’s coups
Donald Persons – 10
I really want to contribute something here but my knowledge is limited to what already been said. Furthermore, there are those “silent upraise” or “silent coup” events that have very little documentation to the point where I think its almost suit the description of rumor rather than actual event. Like what polo said, during early 1980s there were so many of such attempt but very little documentation.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
“Tony”
You said:
“or is it easier for you to just not mention those at all?”
I would suggest reading my book, and see what i mentioned there. This here is a short speech i held during the book launch, not my entire book.
Excuse me if i do not reply the remainder of your diatribe here.
The rehabilitation of U Nu?
Dear Aiontay, Thailand has about 70-75 % Thai and 30 % other ethnic groups. Why did not the Shan, Mon and Karen on their side rebel except the Malay in the southern provinces? So are the Ginphaw or Kachin in Yunnan Province of PRC. Now look at the Wa (Va for China). They remain quiet in China, but rebellious and boisterous on Burma’s side! After all, the Kachin should not complain as they got Myitkyina and Bhamo from Burma Proper to be included in the Kachin State. The ethnic rebellions in Burma are somewhat arbitrary based on their petty chauvinism since 1948. Now all the people or the ethnic groups including the Burman (Bamar) are suffering under the military dictatorship.Whose fault is it?
Counting Thailand’s coups
Are we getting anywhere with this list? why I made my two posts is because the coups are not only a matter of palace intrigue and corruption of state, but they effect the people.
Thai social movements, although less prominent, can turn violent as all other avenues for peaceful change are exhausted. Thailand in 2010 was at a crossroads.
Participants in former social movements squashed by the Thai military (ex., Kao Ko Monument glorifies Air Force General Arthit Kamlangeak) tend to seek new bases and forms for resistance. I assume it ruffles someone’s feathers that in the case of the Hmong in
Thailand, Christianity offered a new base. That is a fact. If you want to bear that out statistically, look at the statistics of the 12th District of the Church of Christ in Thailand. or look herehttp://www.christiansiam.com/Church/Country/North/Phetchabun.html It compares the number of Hmong in Thailand who were Christians before 1960 (0) and after 1980 with the emergence of 45 new churches. It was Hmong Christians from Laos who held this discussion with their Thai kin at that time. There were no foreign or Thai missionaries active there at the time. Similar movement of social resistance to Thai government appeared among the Northern Thai groups I worked with for 15 years. Why resist? Land grabs, deforestation, lack of educational opportunities and other forms of state-sponsored repression (ex., local officials refusing to provide identification cards to people who have lived there for 100 years)
I think that the residue of injustice and resistance scattered across the North and Northeast explains why the Red Shirts could emerge so quickly and powerfully, yet still have disparate agendas among the participating groups. These forms of collective memory of Thai people are interesting to me but certainly not surprising. Those who try to say that the Red Shirts are merely pro-Thaksin have no historical memory.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
Additionally, Nick you admit yourself that you didn’t see everything and that you lacked the courage to get the evidence you need to make such lofty accusations. Where are the photos of ONE dead protester let alone 6???
Officially, ZERO protesters died in 2009. If you have no evidence, you cannot make such claims. Protester accounts do not constitute “evidence” because I can just as easily claim I was there and they are all liars. How could you prove any of what I just said?
Additionally, we do have evidence that the UDD was armed. Sean Boonpracong, UDD’s official spokesman made a comment that the army was shooting at unarmed protesters so the UDD had to shoot back with their pistols. Yes, that is same-sentence contradicting – something Boonpracong is famous for – and indeed 2 bystanders were murdered/gunned down by UDD protesters while trying to protect their property from the looting and mayhem.
Now I am well aware of the fact that many red shirt sympathizers claim the entire riot was Thai soldiers dressed up in Red Shirts fighting themselves … perhaps even some holographic projectors and robots as well? Maybe it was all shot on a stage – while the real UDD was singing “Kumbaya?”
Let’s not forget the thousands of eye witness accounts coming from residents who came out to confront the violent mobs – which is actually backed up with photographic and video evidence… or is it easier for you to just not mention those at all? New Mandala is clearly operating under motives other than objectivity and truth. The constant litany of lies and propaganda published here derides not only its own legitimacy but that of ANU as well.
It’s becoming more widely recognized that universities are operating more in the interest of large corporations and globalism – than that of academia, knowledge, and the people.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
What absolute rubbish. “I have no evidence.” Good, glad you can admit that – too bad you decided to draw conclusions anyway – and you’ve obviously picked sides, as New Mandala has as well. This is the last snuffing out of your credibility.
Thanks for making it completely clear how illegitimate and what ZERO mandate these protesters are operating from – and how all the accusations are based on “no evidence” or evidence produced by a paid foreign lawyer.
The red shirts were created by Thaksin, they are still led by Thaksin, and attempts to mimic other social network driven protests out there come from the US STATE DEPARTMENT and the US funded CANVAS out of Serbia – not rice farmers, degenerate gamblers and 3rd grade educated alcoholics, communists, globalist “academia” and nihilists that make up the bulk of UDD’s ranks.
Prachatai is directly funded 1.5 million/year by the US National Endowment for Democracy, which is chaired by some of the most depraved “neo-cons” in the US government – yes the people that brought us the Iraq/Afghan wars and hope to bring us many more. Simply check the “Board of Directors” at NED’s website if you don’t believe it.
Mull that over for a while. Can you guess what they really want from Thailand? How about a signed FTA? How about complete market liberalization? How about the ability to exploit and destroy Thai society like they’ve done throughout South America, the Middle East and are now cannibalizing their own economies??? If you care about Thailand and its people, you need to work on technical solutions, not political ones backed by dubious parties like Thaksin, PTP, and his foreign backers.
These protests are self-serving, exploiting the people – not helping them. And as always, besides socialist handouts, the reds have ZERO program. Trading in servile dependence to ANY political party for socialist handouts is not freedom or democracy – it is a form of slavery, albeit a gilded form.
The rehabilitation of U Nu?
Not only did U Nu manage to provide a reason for the Kachin and later Shan to challenge the imbalance and inequities of his AFPFL rump Socialist Party rule, in the 1960 election campaign he rekindled another communal strife by wooing the Muslims from Northern Arakan townships for their votes recognising them with a newly coined term Rohingya.
U Nu’s electioneering for power used both religion and race at the expense of the nation’s future. His legacy sadly is an enduring military rule whose raison d’├кtre remains holding the union together – an indictment, almost impossible to shake off, on politicians and civilian rule.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
“Jim Taylor”:
Why should i pay attention to the result of your interviews when they counter everything that i have seen, that my colleagues have seen, and that all the Red Shirts (and some of the Blue Shirts, and some military officers) i have known for years, and who have been there, have seen, when we discussed the events?
I do talk with people.
A lot.
The rehabilitation of U Nu?
Maung Maung,
Thailand has never had as large a percentage of ethnic minorities as Burma. I’d say your first paragraph pretty much encapsulates why
Burma as a whole continues to suffer from a military regime and why the minorities continue to rebel.
Thai women taking charge in business
During the Thaksin mafia reign, it was Potjaman Shinawatra who was directly ‘in charge’ of the family business; and, Potjaman Shinawatra was in charge of “billings and collections.” And yes, Potjaman Shinawatra was the paymaster too . . . every Thai Rak Thai Party (the outlawed Thaksin party) member received their monthly stipends from Potjaman.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
The title strikes me as rather strange; surely it is a “re-awakening”, that is if “Thailand” ever went to sleep.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
Jim and Nick
dont fight boys…. we and Thailand need you both
Thailand’s royal billions
I’m prepared to suggest that had I written the exact same comment above (25) using using a Thai name and written in Thinglish, the thumbs up/down equation would be reversed.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
that a strange attitude Nick: “I do not pay much attention to your interviews – i was there, i have photographed the whole event…”: a [photo-]journalist should learn to listen and talk to participants among those demonstrating, rather than stand from some vantage point and “click-click” -assume that s/he knows or sees everything! I was also at red shirt events since the very beginning and do not claim to know or see everything, unlike you; can you see everything from your lens? In my view it is better as a participant-observer than to create a journalistic sensation over what was and continues to be quite frankly a human tragedy.
Making states in the Cambodian-Lao borderlands
[…] and Protected Areas Management Project. (The image about is taken from a World Bank poster, produced under the BPAMP project.) The project ran between 2000 and 2007, and was supposed to: develop an effective national […]
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
“Jim Taylor”:
You have the events in Pattaya completely confused. The Blue Shirts indeed attacked the Red Shirts (first attack on the 1oth in the evening, second time when a mass of red shirts arrived on the 11th), but retreated when outnumbered at one entry route, at another a violent conflict was prevented through negotiations, when Red Shirts retreated and moved to the Hotel through a different, open route.
But the Hotel incursion happened hours after, the clashes with the Blue Shirts were completely over. The Blue Shirts at no point pushed the Red Shirts into a “confined space”. There was no “confined space”. There was no panic under Red Shirts, the plan by Newin (and Suthep, and the Supreme Command) went completely to shit, and the reasons why i have elaborated on in my book.
The Red Shirts sat for several hours in front of the Hotel while Arisaman held a press conference inside the Hotel with a sack of blue shirts the Red Shirts found on the way to the Hotel.
Red Shirts stormed into the Hotel grounds (some of them have been resting already at the hotel golf course), and pressed against the entry door, which broke.
I have all this documented by photos, and with my text, in my book.
Honestly, i do not pay much attention to your interviews – i was there, i have photographed the whole event, starting from the Blue Shirts marching up through the military lines. I know what i have seen.
I don’t understand your confusion over April 2009. There was Pattaya, and there was the attacks in the Ministry of Interior on April 12 (i missed the attack against Abhisist, but i was present when Nipon Prompan’s car was attacked by Red Shirts (see my book, or my account from New Mandala). Then there was April 13 – the dispersal, and last where the clashes between Red Shirts and local residents/PAD at Yommarat and Nang Loern in the evning/night from of the 13th and 14th.
There are doubts over who placed the the gas trucks, but there is no doubt over the burning of the buses – this were not “Blue Shirts” in Red Shirt disguise – it was Red Shirts. Again – i was there, i have seen numerous buses being burned by Red Shirts, and that includes people i have known for a long time. I know what i have seen myself. I have followed this whole thing on the ground since late 2005, and was both physically and mentally present at most clashes from then until now, as you can see in my articles published here in New Mandala, and in both of my published books on this conflict, and later in my future books.
I may be quite critical of the state and the present government, but that does not mean that i have to follow every single statement of the Red Shirt stages. I am a journalist – i witness myself, follow facts, and corroborate information.
Read my book, please, most of your questions will be answered there.
Thai women taking charge in business
Can’t help but wonder to what degree these results are skewed by nepotism, or by the phenomenon of Thai businesses funded and quietly operated by male foreigners with the listed managing director being a Thai wife or with a female accountant or custodial director.
Grant Thornton offers little in way of a detailed methodology underpinning the statistics they choose to promulgate.
Nick Nostitz on Thailand’s political awakening
not sure of what event you are talking about in “April” Nick? Evidence from participants (interviewed), Arisman, and video footage indicates that the organised rabble of blue shirts blocked and attacked red shirts pushing them back, under the cover of army & police, into a confined space and on the way to the Royal Beach Hotel…This was never disputed, so I am not sure as a photojournalist which part of the event you were actually documenting? Furthermore, it was the blue shirts who attacked red shirts first, created a panic as part of a plan conceived by Newin (as with his “bus” burning and purchase project) under direction from @#$% Informants also said in recorded interviews that this was not spontaneous but appeared to be well orchestrated.