Najib, the man behind the Global Movement of Moderates had this to say on the primacy of Islam (The Malaysian Insider) :
To say all religions are equal before Allah is against the Islamic belief,” said Najib when addressing some 800 religious teachers at a gathering here.
“We respect other religions, we must not insult other religions, but they cannot be said to be as similar to Islam,” he added.
Andrew # 19 :
Yes – I was certainly over-simplifying, due to time-space considerations.
My time very limited currently + NM’s space asking for short, punchy posts : like just about everything I write here it was not, at essence, meant to be definitive – but to stir debate.
Overall, I think Michael Connor’s Gramscian approach, though itself somewhat problematic, provides the best understanding of Thailand, including vote-buying.
Thailand, it seems to me, is best conceptualised as in a being transitional stage between fuedalism and capitalism. But one has to bear in mind that terms like “fuedalism” and “capitalism” are somewhat idealised, rarified, heuristic concepts used by social scientists, historians, etc. to understand extremely complex, varied phenomena.
Anyhow – it is very good the way you are trying to open up a more “culture” oriented debate here. I’ve long thought a huge amount of the comments @ NM reflect “culture shock”,
and “future shock”. Both hitherto not explicitly discussed as such.
Why don’t you start reading comments and try to learn something, and stop trying to start arguments with everybody Les?
Seems a bit one sided Christoffer – we could say maybe someone could answer the questions asked and points I raised. Still I suspect when Andrew titled the post Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman he was looking for a bit more than just 100% acceptance of views. (Were you Andrew?)
Myself Christoffer, I was much heartened by the Andrew Marshall article, even though he is not pro-government, in that he could just remind people that there is more to the recent political clashes than just parroted propaganda phrases.
I do find it uncomfortable in many ways defending Abhisit who is a by-product of all I detest in English class system, but if it is a choice of supporting him or the rogues gallery of all the worst the Thai political system has thrown up the last 30 years, then i will go with him.
Now I could finish off with a suitable Churchill quotation, maybe his one on democracy being the worst form of government, but I didn’t really like the man that much.
R. N. England – Having lived more than half of my life in Thailand I can say that I haven’t found Thailand to be a feudal society. I think it is well on the way to becoming a Western style bourgeois democracy. The vote buying by provincial politicians of various parties is closer to Twentieth Century mafia than a aristocrat/serf relationship, but then again most of these political families are the Thai equivalent of the Mafia.
As for doing battle on behalf of his King I’m afraid I have to upset you because I’m not a Thai so it can’t be my King. I think you would struggle to find a pro-royalist comment of mine on New Mandala, but please go ahead and try.
So it shouldn’t be too hard then to come up with a list of countries that people would feel it was OK to have this gift giving/vote buying in. If that list is too long then maybe a list of countries where it would be a bad thing for it to happen.
Why do I get that feeling that again it’s another question that will never be answered? Don’t worry Andrew I will ask it the one time, this time.
I’m not sure what all the fuss is about. We know that these ‘gifts’ have no real impact on voter behaviour and so from that perspective do no real harm to something we might call ‘democratic culture’. What could influence voter behaviour is if certain politicians withhold these gifts, thereby failing to display the neccessary magnanimity expected by locals. So it seems to me, its a win both for local people (who get a little extra in their pockets, just as, say, Australians did when the Rudd government introduced its ‘stimulus package’) and for rational, democratic decision-making. The only ‘losers’ are the politicians, and I’m not sure anyone would be too upset about this.
I support Chris Beale’s broad-brush use of the term “feudalism” to describe the patronage systems that characterise more-or-less lawless societies like Thailand. I also think his description of Thailand as being torn between feudalism and capitalism is an apt one. Even Thaksin was torn between the two. He was ousted when his fiefdom threatened to become more powerful than that of the King.
LesAbbey himself is stuck, like Don Quixote, in the feudal era. He appears daily in these pages, doing battle on behalf of his King, against those he sees as vassals of the evil one.
OK Andrew I’m willing to accept there maybe cultural differences, but I would appreciate if you would answer this question.
Should gift giving by politicians before an election be legal in Australia too? (Now don’t try and get out of it by talking about pork barrel politics; I mean the Liberals actually at the gates of ANU handing out those banknotes.)
Now at some time in the past there was probably vote buying down there and we could try for a cultural dispensation.
Let’s even look at the US or Britain. The US has had all sorts of shady political practices like Huey Long’s Louisiana or New York’s Tammany Hall. Should that earn them a dispensation for vote buying. I’m sure we could find easily all sorts of strange things going on the UK, after all universal suffrage is less than a hundred years old.
It seems very strange that people argue, probably for political reasons, that vote buying is OK in Thailand, yet the same people will argue, rightly, against the arrogance of the aristocracy, whether old or from the new business class. To me it’s showing that same arrogance in that somehow the peasants in the northeast are lesser beings than you and need to be given gifts to make them vote.
The more laws we have against corruption here the better. The more crooks that are driven out of politics the better. The more provincial godfathers that lose their influence and end up spending their last days in a Cambodian casino the better.
the current power in Thailand military/elites have almost nothing except LM left to defend themselves
as exemplified by the increasing number of cases, the timely production of this David Streckfuss book and these comments, LM is decaying as a deterrent to independent and informed thought.
the military/elites and their sycophantic “royalist” followers are in a panic.
even such as WLH, are expressing dwindling respect for the “institution”, preferring to refer and cling onto the aura of the individual person
after the King dies, what will the military/elites be able to do?
wholesale slaughter of the population as they fade into history?
Les, Chris is (uncharacteristically) oversimplifying. Of course not everything in capitalist societies is a commodity. We only have to think about the various exchanges any of us are involved in every day to see that. The point of my little parable about my grandma is not to justify gift giving (gifts, for example, can be used to create unequal relationships as Claudio Sopranzetti pointed out in a recent post about phrchawiwat). The point of the parable is to encourage readers to try thinking (if only just for a moment) about cash handouts to voters as the presentation of gifts rather than the purchase of a commodity. I would argue that thinking like this opens up ways of interpreting these relationships that are more insightful (and even more critical in some cases) than the language of vote buying. Why not try thinking about something differently, just for a little while.
Barking mad! Would the old fool ever consider learning to live with less as a means to nullify the negative effects of his own greed? No, of course not. Our so-called leaders increasingly live in cloud-cuckoo land.
The latest development on Da Torpedo’s case confirms that the Appeal Court’s decision to refer the case to the Constitutional Court isn’t so much a “win” for Da. Yesterday, Da’s brother had applied for bail for his sister, putting up 1 million Baht as bail bond, donated by humanitarian donors. The judge at the Criminal Court again rejected the application, stating: (sorry, it’s in Thai and I’m too busy to find English equivalents of many legal jargons. anyone kind enough to translate?)
So Da remains in jail even though formally her 18 years sentence was “annulled”. And she could remain there for months or even year without any progress to her case, as the Constitutional Court has no time-limit to consider her case. Further, even if the Constitutional Court is to rule “in her favor” by declaring that the Criminal Court’s procedure had been unconstitutional, the trial will have to start all over again at the lowest level court, and as long as she is denied bail, this will mean more suffering to her. (Since instead of progressing to the next level, it will be back to square one.) Or, if the Constitutional Court is to rule that the Criminal Court’s procedure was constitutional, there will have to be another formal sentencing, which is likely to be the same (i.e. 18 years). And in such case, the progress to the next level will then be delayed all the same.
The whole thing hinges on Da being released on bail, which yesterday she should have been granted, considering how unfair the above situation is to her. Da’s lawyer, Khun Prawet Praphanukul, told me yesterday that he would appeal yesterday’s ruling within a month. Let’s hope he succeeds this time.
I set up this group to discuss the issue of Thainess specifically. Anyone interested in commenting, raising points, offering references, etc., is kindly invited to “drop by.”
Locally here in Korat, by the way, I was told – I believe I alluded to this before – that Prachatai was viewed as having many enemies. While bad news re. censorship and criminal proceedings – very serious – it is also a compliment in terms of the content of material that appears on Prachatai pages. The material is not just thought-provoking, but illuminating and promotes needed discussion.
That anyone should choose to have the website’s administrator imprisoned is a reflection on “Thainess” that itself needs to face reform.
All the best, Chiranuch, and other Thais and expatriates who stand up against a continuing oppressive onslaught of outdated and ignorance-plated officialdom.
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Shan National Day celebrated with pomp, circumstance and a healthy dose of Shan Rock and Roll
If my info is correct, Wa leaders have changed and some young generation leaders try to get closer to the RCCS (the civil entity governing the SSA).
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
I apologise to LesAbbey, and to everyone else, for romanticising him.
Can Malaysia trust Najib?
Najib, the man behind the Global Movement of Moderates had this to say on the primacy of Islam (The Malaysian Insider) :
“We respect other religions, we must not insult other religions, but they cannot be said to be as similar to Islam,” he added.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
So just out of curiosity LesAbbey, what do you make of the billions of baht the current government has served up with an election approaching?
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
Andrew # 19 :
Yes – I was certainly over-simplifying, due to time-space considerations.
My time very limited currently + NM’s space asking for short, punchy posts : like just about everything I write here it was not, at essence, meant to be definitive – but to stir debate.
Overall, I think Michael Connor’s Gramscian approach, though itself somewhat problematic, provides the best understanding of Thailand, including vote-buying.
Thailand, it seems to me, is best conceptualised as in a being transitional stage between fuedalism and capitalism. But one has to bear in mind that terms like “fuedalism” and “capitalism” are somewhat idealised, rarified, heuristic concepts used by social scientists, historians, etc. to understand extremely complex, varied phenomena.
Anyhow – it is very good the way you are trying to open up a more “culture” oriented debate here. I’ve long thought a huge amount of the comments @ NM reflect “culture shock”,
and “future shock”. Both hitherto not explicitly discussed as such.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
Christoffer Larsson – 27
Why don’t you start reading comments and try to learn something, and stop trying to start arguments with everybody Les?
Seems a bit one sided Christoffer – we could say maybe someone could answer the questions asked and points I raised. Still I suspect when Andrew titled the post Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman he was looking for a bit more than just 100% acceptance of views. (Were you Andrew?)
Myself Christoffer, I was much heartened by the Andrew Marshall article, even though he is not pro-government, in that he could just remind people that there is more to the recent political clashes than just parroted propaganda phrases.
I do find it uncomfortable in many ways defending Abhisit who is a by-product of all I detest in English class system, but if it is a choice of supporting him or the rogues gallery of all the worst the Thai political system has thrown up the last 30 years, then i will go with him.
Now I could finish off with a suitable Churchill quotation, maybe his one on democracy being the worst form of government, but I didn’t really like the man that much.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
As both RN England and Les Abbey reject ‘feudal’, can we settle on ‘feud-ridden’ instead?
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
Why don’t you start reading comments and try to learn something, and stop trying to start arguments with everybody Les?
A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject — Winston Churchill
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
R. N. England – Having lived more than half of my life in Thailand I can say that I haven’t found Thailand to be a feudal society. I think it is well on the way to becoming a Western style bourgeois democracy. The vote buying by provincial politicians of various parties is closer to Twentieth Century mafia than a aristocrat/serf relationship, but then again most of these political families are the Thai equivalent of the Mafia.
As for doing battle on behalf of his King I’m afraid I have to upset you because I’m not a Thai so it can’t be my King. I think you would struggle to find a pro-royalist comment of mine on New Mandala, but please go ahead and try.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
So it shouldn’t be too hard then to come up with a list of countries that people would feel it was OK to have this gift giving/vote buying in. If that list is too long then maybe a list of countries where it would be a bad thing for it to happen.
Why do I get that feeling that again it’s another question that will never be answered? Don’t worry Andrew I will ask it the one time, this time.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
I’m not sure what all the fuss is about. We know that these ‘gifts’ have no real impact on voter behaviour and so from that perspective do no real harm to something we might call ‘democratic culture’. What could influence voter behaviour is if certain politicians withhold these gifts, thereby failing to display the neccessary magnanimity expected by locals. So it seems to me, its a win both for local people (who get a little extra in their pockets, just as, say, Australians did when the Rudd government introduced its ‘stimulus package’) and for rational, democratic decision-making. The only ‘losers’ are the politicians, and I’m not sure anyone would be too upset about this.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
I support Chris Beale’s broad-brush use of the term “feudalism” to describe the patronage systems that characterise more-or-less lawless societies like Thailand. I also think his description of Thailand as being torn between feudalism and capitalism is an apt one. Even Thaksin was torn between the two. He was ousted when his fiefdom threatened to become more powerful than that of the King.
LesAbbey himself is stuck, like Don Quixote, in the feudal era. He appears daily in these pages, doing battle on behalf of his King, against those he sees as vassals of the evil one.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
Andrew Walker – 20
So it’s not vote buying it’s gift giving;-)
OK Andrew I’m willing to accept there maybe cultural differences, but I would appreciate if you would answer this question.
Should gift giving by politicians before an election be legal in Australia too? (Now don’t try and get out of it by talking about pork barrel politics; I mean the Liberals actually at the gates of ANU handing out those banknotes.)
Now at some time in the past there was probably vote buying down there and we could try for a cultural dispensation.
Let’s even look at the US or Britain. The US has had all sorts of shady political practices like Huey Long’s Louisiana or New York’s Tammany Hall. Should that earn them a dispensation for vote buying. I’m sure we could find easily all sorts of strange things going on the UK, after all universal suffrage is less than a hundred years old.
It seems very strange that people argue, probably for political reasons, that vote buying is OK in Thailand, yet the same people will argue, rightly, against the arrogance of the aristocracy, whether old or from the new business class. To me it’s showing that same arrogance in that somehow the peasants in the northeast are lesser beings than you and need to be given gifts to make them vote.
The more laws we have against corruption here the better. The more crooks that are driven out of politics the better. The more provincial godfathers that lose their influence and end up spending their last days in a Cambodian casino the better.
David Streckfuss on lese majeste
the current power in Thailand military/elites have almost nothing except LM left to defend themselves
as exemplified by the increasing number of cases, the timely production of this David Streckfuss book and these comments, LM is decaying as a deterrent to independent and informed thought.
the military/elites and their sycophantic “royalist” followers are in a panic.
even such as WLH, are expressing dwindling respect for the “institution”, preferring to refer and cling onto the aura of the individual person
after the King dies, what will the military/elites be able to do?
wholesale slaughter of the population as they fade into history?
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
See what you’ve just done Andrew Walker. You bogeyed!
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
Les, Chris is (uncharacteristically) oversimplifying. Of course not everything in capitalist societies is a commodity. We only have to think about the various exchanges any of us are involved in every day to see that. The point of my little parable about my grandma is not to justify gift giving (gifts, for example, can be used to create unequal relationships as Claudio Sopranzetti pointed out in a recent post about phrchawiwat). The point of the parable is to encourage readers to try thinking (if only just for a moment) about cash handouts to voters as the presentation of gifts rather than the purchase of a commodity. I would argue that thinking like this opens up ways of interpreting these relationships that are more insightful (and even more critical in some cases) than the language of vote buying. Why not try thinking about something differently, just for a little while.
The dark art of Than Shwe’s cross-dressing
Barking mad! Would the old fool ever consider learning to live with less as a means to nullify the negative effects of his own greed? No, of course not. Our so-called leaders increasingly live in cloud-cuckoo land.
Preparing the vote-buying bogeyman
chris beale – 18
Of course, in a fuedal society…
Hate to spoil the party Chris, but whatever Thailand is, it isn’t a feudal society.
Court win for Da Torpedo
The latest development on Da Torpedo’s case confirms that the Appeal Court’s decision to refer the case to the Constitutional Court isn’t so much a “win” for Da. Yesterday, Da’s brother had applied for bail for his sister, putting up 1 million Baht as bail bond, donated by humanitarian donors. The judge at the Criminal Court again rejected the application, stating: (sorry, it’s in Thai and I’m too busy to find English equivalents of many legal jargons. anyone kind enough to translate?)
р╕Юр╕┤р╣Ар╕Др╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕лр╣Мр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ьр╕┤р╕Фр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Яр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕╡р╕нр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕▓р╣Вр╕Чр╕йр╕кр╕╣р╕З р╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Юр╕др╕Хр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕Зр╕Др╕Фр╕╡р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕ер╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕Ур╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Чр╕│р╕Щр╕│р╕бр╕▓р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕бр╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕кр╕╣р╣Ир╕кр╕Цр╕▓р╕Ър╕▒р╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Чр╕┤р╕Фр╕Чр╕╣р╕Щр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕Др╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╕кр╕▒р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕░ р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕нр╕Ър╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕ир╕▓р╕ер╕нр╕▓р╕Нр╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕ир╕▓р╕ер╕нр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╣Ар╕Др╕вр╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕│р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Ыр╕ер╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕Кр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╕Др╕гр╕▓р╕зр╕бр╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Ьр╕ер╣Др╕зр╣Йр╕Кр╕▒р╕Фр╣Бр╕Ир╣Йр╕З р╣Гр╕Щр╕Кр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕Щр╕▒р╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕лр╕▓р╕Бр╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Ыр╕ер╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕Кр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╕Др╕гр╕▓р╕зр╕Ир╕│р╣Ар╕ер╕вр╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕лр╕ер╕Ър╕лр╕Щр╕╡ р╕Ир╕╢р╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕╕р╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Ыр╕ер╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕Кр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╕Др╕гр╕▓р╕з р╕вр╕Бр╕Др╕│р╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕З р╣Бр╕Ир╣Йр╕Зр╕Др╕│р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕ир╕▓р╕ер╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Ир╕│р╣Ар╕ер╕вр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Вр╕нр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ъ
So Da remains in jail even though formally her 18 years sentence was “annulled”. And she could remain there for months or even year without any progress to her case, as the Constitutional Court has no time-limit to consider her case. Further, even if the Constitutional Court is to rule “in her favor” by declaring that the Criminal Court’s procedure had been unconstitutional, the trial will have to start all over again at the lowest level court, and as long as she is denied bail, this will mean more suffering to her. (Since instead of progressing to the next level, it will be back to square one.) Or, if the Constitutional Court is to rule that the Criminal Court’s procedure was constitutional, there will have to be another formal sentencing, which is likely to be the same (i.e. 18 years). And in such case, the progress to the next level will then be delayed all the same.
The whole thing hinges on Da being released on bail, which yesterday she should have been granted, considering how unfair the above situation is to her. Da’s lawyer, Khun Prawet Praphanukul, told me yesterday that he would appeal yesterday’s ruling within a month. Let’s hope he succeeds this time.
David Streckfuss on lese majeste
Please refer to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Thainess/
I set up this group to discuss the issue of Thainess specifically. Anyone interested in commenting, raising points, offering references, etc., is kindly invited to “drop by.”
Locally here in Korat, by the way, I was told – I believe I alluded to this before – that Prachatai was viewed as having many enemies. While bad news re. censorship and criminal proceedings – very serious – it is also a compliment in terms of the content of material that appears on Prachatai pages. The material is not just thought-provoking, but illuminating and promotes needed discussion.
That anyone should choose to have the website’s administrator imprisoned is a reflection on “Thainess” that itself needs to face reform.
All the best, Chiranuch, and other Thais and expatriates who stand up against a continuing oppressive onslaught of outdated and ignorance-plated officialdom.
Frank G Anderson