#9 “Which is precisely why the ruling classes in Thailand are presently behaving as they are. They feel seriously threatened – with good reason in my view, history will show that the 2006 coup was a disaster for the Thai elites, an unmitigated disaster.”
No argument with that. Just the observation that they spawned a monster amongst their ranks called Thaksin in the late 1990s. So we could just as easily say that their initial enthusiasm for a crooked cop (one of their own, with all the bad attitude that indicates) was an even earlier unmitigated disaster which set us mere pawns up to have to sit through yet another unmitigated disaster in 2006. Fact of the matter is that Thailand has been beset by unmitigated diasters for well over a century – due to the horrible habits of its squabbling elitist factions. And as mere instruments of those elitist factions, the color-coded goon squads have nothing new to offer – as they move towards yet another unmitigated disaster of their own making.
It is difficult to take any suggestion seriously that says propagandising at school does not exist in Thailand, nor any suggestion that equates the level and extent of this propaganda with the British Public/Grammar school system in he 1950тА▓s – 1970тА▓s (which I also experienced). I am not familiar with the USA system, but having learned to be distasteful of most things American, I would not doubt any alleged outrage laid at their door.
But to be fair I did not specify propagandising at school, I noted a sweeping cradle-to-the-grave propagandising, which is not the same thing. From personal experience of teaching in the Thai school system, I can say I am not persuadable that school kids in Thailand are not specifically (and in my view perniciously) targeted with royalist propaganda, and that this permeates the classroom and all other school activities. To believe that Thais are not subjected to a deliberate, systematic and sustained campaign of indoctrination, frankly requires that you spend all your time in Thailand with fingers in your ears and hands over your eyes. It just cannot be taken seriously.
As to evidence, of course I have not polled all 64m+ Thais, so inevitably any opinion I have is based on experience of a very small microcosm. Personal or anecdotal evidence if you like, but, supported by what I read in the (generally royalist) Thai English-language media. My clear opinion is that the attitude of Isaan Thais towards the monarchy has changed dramatically over the past 4 years. If your experience differs then so be it, this is mine, and that is what I shared.
If you don’t agree and if that disagreement is credible then good luck to you, history will show which one of us is right – all we have do to is wait and watch.
Is maintaining an oppressive state of the people considered being a stabiliser? I mean, how gradual does returning the power to people that are becoming aware of their rights and the logic of science have to be? Stabilising as an analgesic to the shock that “oh shit! the devine right to sovereignty for oppressing the people is getting old, lets have a schism of the Monarch and the apparatus for oppression, lets have a transcended Monarch and let the monarchial crony do the oppressing, oh how long is it going to last though, the pain”.
I’m not at all convinced by the ‘propaganda at school’ argument.
What could be more narrowly ideological than the US school system during the McCarthy / cold war period? Or more thoroughly repressive than the British public / grammar school system of the 1950s – 70s (which I personally experienced)? Yet they both produced new, creative and cheerfully oppositional ideas in almost any field you care to name. As far as I know, the same would apply to the rest of (western) Europe, and probably beyond. So I DO find it surprising that Thai students fall for it.
I don’t get it. But as there’s “abundant evidence” for this “newly awakened consciousness”, personal opinions are neither here nor there; it’s simply a question of scrutinising the data. Which data should I be looking at?
Speaking of gods and pedestals and so on…
Section 10 of the Thai Constitution reads, “Section 10. The King holds the position of Head of the Thai Armed Forces.”
Does this mean what it says?
If your claim that you feel the ground shifting among the reds in regards to the monarchy is changing it would be very interesting indeed. I haven’t been to any of these recent smaller protests so I can’t claim any new “intel” based on activist reds.
It would be great to have a Thai do some independent polling on the monarchy among the reds and report to NM. 1000 people sample?
Nick I’m still pondering your piece about the Minburi Muslims which did surprise me. Of course you could be correct and myself wrong for treating the Bangkok Muslim community as a single voice. Are there special reasons for those in Minburi to be supporting the UDD? Is it possible they are part of a sub-group, like for example taxi drivers, who have good reasons to support Thaksin? (I know in the past that Minburi farm land has been sacrificed during periods of flooding to save Bangkok.)
Going back to the reason for Thaksin’s lack of popularity among Muslims one has to understand that the politics of populism don’t only consist of giving financial benefits to the group that the politician is appealing to. It also has a tendency to use baser feelings among that group such as prejudice and anger.
I suspect both the popular at the time extra-judicial killing of drug dealers and the disastrous hardline approach to the problems in the South were at least partly appealing to those feelings. That many Thais, including those from the northeast, do not consider Muslims 100% Thai can easily be found just by asking a few questions of friends. To many the opposite of a Muslim is a Thai, not a Buddhist.
So when we look at Thaksin’s populism we should add to those 30 Baht medical insurance cards the deaths of many small time drug dealers and users and the massacre of Muslims in the South.
It is quite complicated – i have Muslim friends in the deep South who do like Thaksin and the Red Shirts. I know other Muslims down South who don’t care either way. And i have spent time with Muslims who are part of village defense forces and paramilitary organizations such as the Rangers who support the state and its harsh policies by fighting themselves against insurgents.
I have a problem with simplifying complicated matters here “Thaksin’s Policies”, like “Thaksin’s drugwar” (more of a elite consensus by almost all institutions of power, including Thaksin/TRT, of battling the at the time huge drug problem – both with sensible programs, and unfortunately with brutal extrajudicial killings), or “Thaksin’s human rights violations in the South” because of his policies (in reality though the insurgency was planned years before Thaksin became PM, and some of the most memorable incidents were committed by the security forces on the ground, some against Thaksin’s and Chavalit’s orders, such as the Krue Sae Mosque killings).
The Thai state isn’t monolithic, and it also was not under Thaksin.
“Maratjp” said:
“You may think these red shirts are another species, but in this foreigner’s eyes you both are very much Thai in your instinctive deference to a King.
But I’m always willing to change my opinion based on more evidence!”
I can only suggest again to go to current Red Shirt protests. perceptions regarding the monarchy issue are now quite different than they were before the dispersal.
The conflict is strongly influenced by perception and interpretations of events, and in a constant flux. We do not have many numbers we can rely upon, especially not on feelings regarding the monarchy, but we can clearly see trends based on the tone of current discussions.
“But they explained to me that the Thai people don’t really need an ‘enlightenment’, as the King has worked out everything already.”
Well it’s hardy surprising given the extent and intensity of the cradle-to-the-grave propaganda on the subject that Thais are subjected to. Fortunately there is abundant evidence that many Thais, perhaps even the majority are no longer prepared to be duped.
Kant’s description of ‘enlightenment’ has a parallel in the Piaget’s scale of cognitive development among children. A psychologist of my acquaintance considers the Thai to be on a par with children of about 12 years old on the Piaget scale, supported by an assessment of their emotional development, particularly in respect of their focus on subjective measures of self-worth such as acquisition, face and “image” at the expense of development of ethics, reasoning skills and an emotional intelligence (defined for many purposes as the ability of someone to understand the impact their actions have on other people, and to factor the emotional states that other people have into their decision-making).
On balance I agree with what I believe is the thrust of Streckfuss’ article; I see abundant evidence to suggest that Thais are awakening from their dream and discovering it was a nightmare. And deciding that they don’t want any more of it thank you very much. It seems to be a rapidly spreading awareness, emanating out of the North and North-east.
Which is precisely why the ruling classes in Thailand are presently behaving as they are. They feel seriously threatened – with good reason in my view, history will show that the 2006 coup was a disaster for the Thai elites, an unmitigated disaster.
Les Abbey said: “Whatever the Abhisit government is, it’s not fascist. If elections are not held at the end of this parliament’s designated time span, then you can start looking at terms like fascist.”
Perhaps at this point the royalist/military government are not quite fully Fascist as they don’t quite fit an Orwellian future of
” …a boot stamping on a human face forever.”
Because they have only been doing it for 4 years.
Perhaps it is Thai-style fascism.
But Thaksin’s government also had a great many Fascist elements.
However, Thaksin’s excesses do not justify the royalist/Democrat Party /military excesses either.
I agree with Nick Nostitz that it’s hard to quantify opinions regarding the Red Shirts and their feelings about the monarchy. I also agree with Nigel in that I believe that sacred power is embedded deeply in Thai culture, though I think it is still sacred power in a King .
Somsak’s, Srithanonchai’s, and Michael’s comments about what they have heard from taxi drivers or regular Thai people is interesting, but my experience has been more mixed. Not that I would ever draw conclusions about the feelings of millions of people on just a few conversations, but these views elicited I found interesting.
A the protests back in April and May one protester told me that “We can’t touch the King, only the people around him.” On another occasion a farmer with dark, leathery skin raised his voice telling me, “We need the King to protect us from the generals!”
Yesterday I asked a taxi driver what he felt about the King. He answered, “What King?” I replied, “9” to which he responded, “Mai kit.” He did criticize Prem and Sirikit.
In a town near Kon Kaen today I asked the mother of a friend what she thought about the monarchy and she said she respects the King. Later after I gave her my opinion about the current events she replied, through her daughter’s translation, that “foreigners don’t understand the King.” Though she also loved Thaksin and said he helped her sell her rice at 20 baht/kilo instead of the 11 where it is now.
The only anti-monarchy sentiments I have heard have been from two sources, both from the educated. A certain Thai man with connections in the military would like the monarchy to be more contained and mentioned how Thailand was feudalist.
The only discussion I have heard from a Thai that was harsh came from Chula/Thammasat protesters last August at Ratchaprasong. My brief discussion with them was shocking as I simply wasn’t ready to hear Thai people talk like foreigners about their monarchy.
Red Shirts 50-90% anti monarchy? Depends on how you define anti-monarchy. 50-90% supporting the attack on those around the monarchy who abuse it? Yes. But my opinion hasn’t changed. As I told a royalist acquaintance of mine a while ago: You may think these red shirts are another species, but in this foreigner’s eyes you both are very much Thai in your instinctive deference to a King.
But I’m always willing to change my opinion based on more evidence!
Quite wrong there. In both movements you have Muslims. Many Minburi area Muslims are an integral part of the Red Shirt movement.
Not sure on how much of an inroad the UDD has made into the Bangkok Muslim community Nick. I live in a Muslim area to the east of the city, not that far from Minburi and there is quite a bit of hostility to the UDD. The Democrats seem to be able to rely on their votes right now. I think this stems from the reaction to Thaksin’s policies in the South.
(Just for those that don’t know this Bangkok community it should not be confused with the ethnic Malay Muslims of the South. But I have noticed over the years the increase in a more fundamental approach to their religion, most noticeable in dress. This certainly increased after the first Gulf war and then again after the insurrection in the South increased with Thaksin’s policies.)
It doesn’t matter what label you put on PAD. They still pose the same threat to the stability of Thailand as fascist organizations ones did to Europe.
What started as a movement to remove Thaksin has now become a movement to overthrow any government that does not obey to their specific agenda. And it’s an agenda that is opposed to both the principles of democracy and liberalism.
I did look up the definition of fascism before I used it and I am by no means using it as some kind of confetti.
But then Christoffer we get into the problem of using words not for what they mean, but for what we would like them to mean. For example john francis lee on another thread says.
And a military government is fascist by definition.
But again when we look at the meaning of the word and then test it against various military governments some don’t quite fit the word.
Now one of the good professors from Chula corrected me on this blog some time ago when I said that Pibul was the Thai version of the 1930’s fascist leaders. The good professor said that he and others had already studied the question of Pibul’s politics and decided that he wasn’t a fascist. It quite possible that these Chula academics are correct and I am wrong.
So are these people you call fascist, fascist in the meaning of the word, or fascist in what you would like the word to mean. John would obviously like it to mean any military government. What would you like it to mean?
“On that all I know is that there seems to be a dislike by Muslims of the UDD and Thaksin.”
Quite wrong there. In both movements you have Muslims. Many Minburi area Muslims are an integral part of the Red Shirt movement.
The Muslim areas of the Ban Krua community and opposite at Petchaburi Soi 5 and 7 are in alliance with the PAD, not for a small reason because of their community leader who joined the PAD.
China’s fear is that Myanmar’s junta, having conducted the country’s first (stage-managed) elections in 20 years on November 7th, might be ready to break longstanding ceasefires and bring the UWSA and other militias to heel.
JFL #3 – There are Vejs & Vejs. Suranand was a member of Thaksin’s cabinet, one of the banned 111. He has an editorial today, entitled “A Creeping Military Regime Gets Creepier Every Day.”
Quote: ” Having allowed the military to manipulate him into a position of power as the prime minister, Mr Abhisit should not be surprised when the military starts flexing its powers. By not exerting his political leadership in a more democratic manner, PM Abhisit has allowed the already strong military to extend its regime over a supposedly democratic country.”
I once gave a talk on the history of ideas to a postgraduate course at one of Thailand’s top universities. I discussed Kant’s definition of the Enlightenment as an ’emergence from self-imposed childhood’ – the historical point when you begin to trust your own observations of the world rather than those of a ‘father figure’.
But they explained to me that the Thai people don’t really need an ‘enlightenment’, as the King has worked out everything already.
Remember that the statue is part of a much bigger riverfront project aimed at minimising future risks of major flooding in Vientiane (vendors at the site have for sale splendid photos of the 1966 floods all the way up to (then) still-being-constructed Patuxay monument). So, what the Chao is really indicating with his right hand is: ‘Nam – yud!!’
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How hardline have the redshirts become?
Maratjp – 58
An independent poll would be nice, but will that sort of poll be hit with lese majeste is something no one wants to get involve with.
Streckfuss on reform of the institution
#9 “Which is precisely why the ruling classes in Thailand are presently behaving as they are. They feel seriously threatened – with good reason in my view, history will show that the 2006 coup was a disaster for the Thai elites, an unmitigated disaster.”
No argument with that. Just the observation that they spawned a monster amongst their ranks called Thaksin in the late 1990s. So we could just as easily say that their initial enthusiasm for a crooked cop (one of their own, with all the bad attitude that indicates) was an even earlier unmitigated disaster which set us mere pawns up to have to sit through yet another unmitigated disaster in 2006. Fact of the matter is that Thailand has been beset by unmitigated diasters for well over a century – due to the horrible habits of its squabbling elitist factions. And as mere instruments of those elitist factions, the color-coded goon squads have nothing new to offer – as they move towards yet another unmitigated disaster of their own making.
Streckfuss on reform of the institution
@р╕Эр╕гр╕▒р╕З р╕Зр╕З #10.
It is difficult to take any suggestion seriously that says propagandising at school does not exist in Thailand, nor any suggestion that equates the level and extent of this propaganda with the British Public/Grammar school system in he 1950тА▓s – 1970тА▓s (which I also experienced). I am not familiar with the USA system, but having learned to be distasteful of most things American, I would not doubt any alleged outrage laid at their door.
But to be fair I did not specify propagandising at school, I noted a sweeping cradle-to-the-grave propagandising, which is not the same thing. From personal experience of teaching in the Thai school system, I can say I am not persuadable that school kids in Thailand are not specifically (and in my view perniciously) targeted with royalist propaganda, and that this permeates the classroom and all other school activities. To believe that Thais are not subjected to a deliberate, systematic and sustained campaign of indoctrination, frankly requires that you spend all your time in Thailand with fingers in your ears and hands over your eyes. It just cannot be taken seriously.
As to evidence, of course I have not polled all 64m+ Thais, so inevitably any opinion I have is based on experience of a very small microcosm. Personal or anecdotal evidence if you like, but, supported by what I read in the (generally royalist) Thai English-language media. My clear opinion is that the attitude of Isaan Thais towards the monarchy has changed dramatically over the past 4 years. If your experience differs then so be it, this is mine, and that is what I shared.
If you don’t agree and if that disagreement is credible then good luck to you, history will show which one of us is right – all we have do to is wait and watch.
Thai monarchy: Political stabiliser or destabiliser?
Is maintaining an oppressive state of the people considered being a stabiliser? I mean, how gradual does returning the power to people that are becoming aware of their rights and the logic of science have to be? Stabilising as an analgesic to the shock that “oh shit! the devine right to sovereignty for oppressing the people is getting old, lets have a schism of the Monarch and the apparatus for oppression, lets have a transcended Monarch and let the monarchial crony do the oppressing, oh how long is it going to last though, the pain”.
Streckfuss on reform of the institution
I’m not at all convinced by the ‘propaganda at school’ argument.
What could be more narrowly ideological than the US school system during the McCarthy / cold war period? Or more thoroughly repressive than the British public / grammar school system of the 1950s – 70s (which I personally experienced)? Yet they both produced new, creative and cheerfully oppositional ideas in almost any field you care to name. As far as I know, the same would apply to the rest of (western) Europe, and probably beyond. So I DO find it surprising that Thai students fall for it.
I don’t get it. But as there’s “abundant evidence” for this “newly awakened consciousness”, personal opinions are neither here nor there; it’s simply a question of scrutinising the data. Which data should I be looking at?
Here lies a toppled god – Bangkok
Speaking of gods and pedestals and so on…
Section 10 of the Thai Constitution reads, “Section 10. The King holds the position of Head of the Thai Armed Forces.”
Does this mean what it says?
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Nick,
If your claim that you feel the ground shifting among the reds in regards to the monarchy is changing it would be very interesting indeed. I haven’t been to any of these recent smaller protests so I can’t claim any new “intel” based on activist reds.
It would be great to have a Thai do some independent polling on the monarchy among the reds and report to NM. 1000 people sample?
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Nick Nostitz – 51
Nick I’m still pondering your piece about the Minburi Muslims which did surprise me. Of course you could be correct and myself wrong for treating the Bangkok Muslim community as a single voice. Are there special reasons for those in Minburi to be supporting the UDD? Is it possible they are part of a sub-group, like for example taxi drivers, who have good reasons to support Thaksin? (I know in the past that Minburi farm land has been sacrificed during periods of flooding to save Bangkok.)
Going back to the reason for Thaksin’s lack of popularity among Muslims one has to understand that the politics of populism don’t only consist of giving financial benefits to the group that the politician is appealing to. It also has a tendency to use baser feelings among that group such as prejudice and anger.
I suspect both the popular at the time extra-judicial killing of drug dealers and the disastrous hardline approach to the problems in the South were at least partly appealing to those feelings. That many Thais, including those from the northeast, do not consider Muslims 100% Thai can easily be found just by asking a few questions of friends. To many the opposite of a Muslim is a Thai, not a Buddhist.
So when we look at Thaksin’s populism we should add to those 30 Baht medical insurance cards the deaths of many small time drug dealers and users and the massacre of Muslims in the South.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
“LesAbbey”:
It is quite complicated – i have Muslim friends in the deep South who do like Thaksin and the Red Shirts. I know other Muslims down South who don’t care either way. And i have spent time with Muslims who are part of village defense forces and paramilitary organizations such as the Rangers who support the state and its harsh policies by fighting themselves against insurgents.
I have a problem with simplifying complicated matters here “Thaksin’s Policies”, like “Thaksin’s drugwar” (more of a elite consensus by almost all institutions of power, including Thaksin/TRT, of battling the at the time huge drug problem – both with sensible programs, and unfortunately with brutal extrajudicial killings), or “Thaksin’s human rights violations in the South” because of his policies (in reality though the insurgency was planned years before Thaksin became PM, and some of the most memorable incidents were committed by the security forces on the ground, some against Thaksin’s and Chavalit’s orders, such as the Krue Sae Mosque killings).
The Thai state isn’t monolithic, and it also was not under Thaksin.
“Maratjp” said:
“You may think these red shirts are another species, but in this foreigner’s eyes you both are very much Thai in your instinctive deference to a King.
But I’m always willing to change my opinion based on more evidence!”
I can only suggest again to go to current Red Shirt protests. perceptions regarding the monarchy issue are now quite different than they were before the dispersal.
The conflict is strongly influenced by perception and interpretations of events, and in a constant flux. We do not have many numbers we can rely upon, especially not on feelings regarding the monarchy, but we can clearly see trends based on the tone of current discussions.
Streckfuss on reform of the institution
“But they explained to me that the Thai people don’t really need an ‘enlightenment’, as the King has worked out everything already.”
Well it’s hardy surprising given the extent and intensity of the cradle-to-the-grave propaganda on the subject that Thais are subjected to. Fortunately there is abundant evidence that many Thais, perhaps even the majority are no longer prepared to be duped.
Kant’s description of ‘enlightenment’ has a parallel in the Piaget’s scale of cognitive development among children. A psychologist of my acquaintance considers the Thai to be on a par with children of about 12 years old on the Piaget scale, supported by an assessment of their emotional development, particularly in respect of their focus on subjective measures of self-worth such as acquisition, face and “image” at the expense of development of ethics, reasoning skills and an emotional intelligence (defined for many purposes as the ability of someone to understand the impact their actions have on other people, and to factor the emotional states that other people have into their decision-making).
On balance I agree with what I believe is the thrust of Streckfuss’ article; I see abundant evidence to suggest that Thais are awakening from their dream and discovering it was a nightmare. And deciding that they don’t want any more of it thank you very much. It seems to be a rapidly spreading awareness, emanating out of the North and North-east.
Which is precisely why the ruling classes in Thailand are presently behaving as they are. They feel seriously threatened – with good reason in my view, history will show that the 2006 coup was a disaster for the Thai elites, an unmitigated disaster.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Les Abbey said: “Whatever the Abhisit government is, it’s not fascist. If elections are not held at the end of this parliament’s designated time span, then you can start looking at terms like fascist.”
Perhaps at this point the royalist/military government are not quite fully Fascist as they don’t quite fit an Orwellian future of
” …a boot stamping on a human face forever.”
Because they have only been doing it for 4 years.
Perhaps it is Thai-style fascism.
But Thaksin’s government also had a great many Fascist elements.
However, Thaksin’s excesses do not justify the royalist/Democrat Party /military excesses either.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
I agree with Nick Nostitz that it’s hard to quantify opinions regarding the Red Shirts and their feelings about the monarchy. I also agree with Nigel in that I believe that sacred power is embedded deeply in Thai culture, though I think it is still sacred power in a King .
Somsak’s, Srithanonchai’s, and Michael’s comments about what they have heard from taxi drivers or regular Thai people is interesting, but my experience has been more mixed. Not that I would ever draw conclusions about the feelings of millions of people on just a few conversations, but these views elicited I found interesting.
A the protests back in April and May one protester told me that “We can’t touch the King, only the people around him.” On another occasion a farmer with dark, leathery skin raised his voice telling me, “We need the King to protect us from the generals!”
Yesterday I asked a taxi driver what he felt about the King. He answered, “What King?” I replied, “9” to which he responded, “Mai kit.” He did criticize Prem and Sirikit.
In a town near Kon Kaen today I asked the mother of a friend what she thought about the monarchy and she said she respects the King. Later after I gave her my opinion about the current events she replied, through her daughter’s translation, that “foreigners don’t understand the King.” Though she also loved Thaksin and said he helped her sell her rice at 20 baht/kilo instead of the 11 where it is now.
The only anti-monarchy sentiments I have heard have been from two sources, both from the educated. A certain Thai man with connections in the military would like the monarchy to be more contained and mentioned how Thailand was feudalist.
The only discussion I have heard from a Thai that was harsh came from Chula/Thammasat protesters last August at Ratchaprasong. My brief discussion with them was shocking as I simply wasn’t ready to hear Thai people talk like foreigners about their monarchy.
Red Shirts 50-90% anti monarchy? Depends on how you define anti-monarchy. 50-90% supporting the attack on those around the monarchy who abuse it? Yes. But my opinion hasn’t changed. As I told a royalist acquaintance of mine a while ago: You may think these red shirts are another species, but in this foreigner’s eyes you both are very much Thai in your instinctive deference to a King.
But I’m always willing to change my opinion based on more evidence!
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Nick Nostitz – 51
Quite wrong there. In both movements you have Muslims. Many Minburi area Muslims are an integral part of the Red Shirt movement.
Not sure on how much of an inroad the UDD has made into the Bangkok Muslim community Nick. I live in a Muslim area to the east of the city, not that far from Minburi and there is quite a bit of hostility to the UDD. The Democrats seem to be able to rely on their votes right now. I think this stems from the reaction to Thaksin’s policies in the South.
(Just for those that don’t know this Bangkok community it should not be confused with the ethnic Malay Muslims of the South. But I have noticed over the years the increase in a more fundamental approach to their religion, most noticeable in dress. This certainly increased after the first Gulf war and then again after the insurrection in the South increased with Thaksin’s policies.)
How hardline have the redshirts become?
LesAbbey – 51
It doesn’t matter what label you put on PAD. They still pose the same threat to the stability of Thailand as fascist organizations ones did to Europe.
What started as a movement to remove Thaksin has now become a movement to overthrow any government that does not obey to their specific agenda. And it’s an agenda that is opposed to both the principles of democracy and liberalism.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Christoffer Larsson – 43
I did look up the definition of fascism before I used it and I am by no means using it as some kind of confetti.
But then Christoffer we get into the problem of using words not for what they mean, but for what we would like them to mean. For example john francis lee on another thread says.
And a military government is fascist by definition.
But again when we look at the meaning of the word and then test it against various military governments some don’t quite fit the word.
Now one of the good professors from Chula corrected me on this blog some time ago when I said that Pibul was the Thai version of the 1930’s fascist leaders. The good professor said that he and others had already studied the question of Pibul’s politics and decided that he wasn’t a fascist. It quite possible that these Chula academics are correct and I am wrong.
So are these people you call fascist, fascist in the meaning of the word, or fascist in what you would like the word to mean. John would obviously like it to mean any military government. What would you like it to mean?
How hardline have the redshirts become?
“LesAbbey” said:
“On that all I know is that there seems to be a dislike by Muslims of the UDD and Thaksin.”
Quite wrong there. In both movements you have Muslims. Many Minburi area Muslims are an integral part of the Red Shirt movement.
The Muslim areas of the Ban Krua community and opposite at Petchaburi Soi 5 and 7 are in alliance with the PAD, not for a small reason because of their community leader who joined the PAD.
China and the Wa
China’s fear is that Myanmar’s junta, having conducted the country’s first (stage-managed) elections in 20 years on November 7th, might be ready to break longstanding ceasefires and bring the UWSA and other militias to heel.
I think this is quite an interesting article: http://www.economist.com/node/17583022?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/ar/goodfences
People’s Alliance against Democracy
JFL #3 – There are Vejs & Vejs. Suranand was a member of Thaksin’s cabinet, one of the banned 111. He has an editorial today, entitled “A Creeping Military Regime Gets Creepier Every Day.”
Quote: ” Having allowed the military to manipulate him into a position of power as the prime minister, Mr Abhisit should not be surprised when the military starts flexing its powers. By not exerting his political leadership in a more democratic manner, PM Abhisit has allowed the already strong military to extend its regime over a supposedly democratic country.”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/208191/a-creeping-military-regime-gets-creepier-every-day
Streckfuss on reform of the institution
I once gave a talk on the history of ideas to a postgraduate course at one of Thailand’s top universities. I discussed Kant’s definition of the Enlightenment as an ’emergence from self-imposed childhood’ – the historical point when you begin to trust your own observations of the world rather than those of a ‘father figure’.
But they explained to me that the Thai people don’t really need an ‘enlightenment’, as the King has worked out everything already.
Size matters
Remember that the statue is part of a much bigger riverfront project aimed at minimising future risks of major flooding in Vientiane (vendors at the site have for sale splendid photos of the 1966 floods all the way up to (then) still-being-constructed Patuxay monument). So, what the Chao is really indicating with his right hand is: ‘Nam – yud!!’