Exactly the prescription by Suzie Wong et al. A neoliberal version of economic determinism that’s being promoted with S Korea and Indonesia as examples. No surprise to some of us who see through the US, the wellspring of neoliberalism where markets and profits are clearly first and foremost, while democracy and human rights, like the American people, get lip service and take a second place.
“Like I told everybody: Abhisit demonstrated “utmost restraint” while the Reds leadership was guilty , beyond reasonable doubt, of “inciting violence”.”
I’m done with this conversation. If shooting unarmed civilians in the street with automatic weapons is “utmost restraint”, I’d hate to see what you consider a firm hand to be…
You’re promoting violation of human rights and mass murder – disgusting.
Thanks Keith, and good to know about the EIA/Global Witness report.
Unfortunately since I was not allowed to go with villagers on logging trips, I did not find out about where exactly they were harvesting from. But most said that there was little rosewood left in nearby areas of Virachey National Park in Cambodia and much more across the border in Laos (like in the Xe Pian National Protected Area to the northwest).
Regulation is very tough – for instance, even with World Bank pressure and resources relating to the Nam Theun 2 hydro project in central Laos, rosewood logging in the Nakai-Nam Theun NPA is still continuing.
One thing for sure, the illegality of rosewood trade (it is completely protected in Laos, not sure about Cambodia?) means that the majority of benefits go to powerful middlemen rather than the average villager/logger.
Chao anuvong is not rebellion at all, every where when the negotiation was not succeed , then some side or both sides can announce the fight or the war. and another thing is that Chao anuvong did not defeated to Ya Moh , actually at that time Siam is supported modern weapon by European country. the legend of Ya Moh is only a made up story of Siam they are good of making up a story, especially to ashamed her enemy, or to cover their own dirtiness. thanks for read my poor English.
Really interesting. As some others noted, there has been recent talk of others. In mid-2010 I saw a socialist-style memorial and statue of Souphanavong under construction near Thakek.
Are there more being built across Laos?
To me, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black, of one mass-murderer accusing another of mass-murder. So my question is, if you don’t think this is worth drawing attention to, what would be?
Now that you have an assumption there that I think worth to point out. First you assume that all the 2,300 cases were committed by state apparatus (pardon me if I misunderstood you), while (I think you can check in one of Bangkokpundit article) there are around 50 confirmed kill by policeman and the rest was still unconfirmed of who actually killed them. Furthermore out of that 2300, about 1,400 is not drug related so it could be just ordinary murder cases for all we know. To included every death bodies during the 3 months campaign as an extra-jurisdiction killing is grossly over estimated. Lastly, if you really study the drug trafficking network here in Thailand, you would know that it largely involve people from the military, politician, police, and even civil servant. Given the number of many high ranking officers who actually involved in drug trafficking its not so surprising that they will order their man to kill those small time seller that connect to them before the police can trace the evidence back to them.
Let me make myself clear a bit, I’m not defending Thaksin for the extra-jurisdiction killing, but I just want to point out that the drug trafficking network and the relationship between people who are running this business makes this issue a very sensitive and complex one.
I think you’re misinterpreting my point. To me, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black, of one mass-murderer accusing another of mass-murder. So my question is, if you don’t think this is worth drawing attention to, what would be?
Actually the question is rhetorical. I would guess that there is nothing Robert Amsterdam could say on behalf of his client that would be criticised by the majority and the loudest voices in this forum (short of donning a yellow shirt and switching sides, I guess).
I’m a long-time reader of New Mandala, from the start actually, but I read via RSS, which doesn’t include comment threads. This is the first time I’ve posted a comment and I’m surprised that what I regard as a politically disinterested, balanced and informative source of news and analysis is dominated by Red ideologues.
Yes, Moe Aung, I firmly hope for a civilian takeover both in Burma and in Thailand, but I should have been clearer. The present troubles in Myawaddy and other places make one wonder whether it would be possible to hold the union together under an elected civilian government. If a separate Karen State were to emerge, it could be a poorer, more corrupt and violent equivalent of Laos or Nepal. The tradition of the rule of law, the basis of civilian government, is desperately weak, not only in the backwoods of Burma. Kevin Rudd was right last night when he said something like, “Lasting peace in the region will be founded on rules-based relations between countries”. The same applies to relations between individuals, and between individuals and the State. A lot of work needs to be done so that these dreams can come true.
Some states wish it to be believed (or want to believe) that supporting the electoral process is equivalent to supporting incremental change towards democracy. In fact, they are looking to the end of sanctions and the opportunity to invest in the country. More and more articles explain that the path of democracy in Burma lies through development (and therefore investments).
I think that is an accurate assessment of the ‘trend’ in the Thailand, the US, and the EU.
(NM moderator: I am not certain where to post this . . . but at your discretion you could junk this poster – Vichai N)
Furious Ayutthaya farmers have slammed irrigation officials for not warning them before they diverted water from rivers to their farmlands during the recent effort to save Bangkok from run-off from the North.
”I’m only khon ban nok [country man],” said rice and straw mushroom farmer Somjit Wongkamhan, referring to the inferior image of farmers held by many Bangkok residents.
”Our paddies were submerged but how could we tell Bangkok folk to be aware of our sacrifice? The capital is important, but khon ban nok like me have no value.”
Mr Somjit’s 30 rai of paddy, three straw mushroom cultivation plants and gardens in Maha Rat district were all damaged by the flood. He said he had nothing to sell to earn money to repay his debts to the Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives, the Village Fund and non-bank lenders, worth 310,000 baht in total.
I am not sure why NM was so slow to grab on this piece of news. Does it make sense to prolong the flood suffering of the Reds area specifically to spare ‘khon krungthep’ from partaking in the misery?
“the possibility that elected representatives may one day get out of control and take over the country makes this a step in the right direction.”
With your tongue firmly in your cheek? Sure thing.
Suzie Wong #5 presumably was worried about just that sort of dilemma. Poor generals.
Perhaps the white man’s burden has transformed over the decades into the general’s burden. Perhaps we should forgive the white man and get him back. What d’you reckon, Suzie?
These lines from Vientiane Times (3 November 2010) suggest a combination of militarism and morality:
“The statue faces the Mekong in a westerly direction, with the king’s left hand holding a sword as the right hand gestures forward to symbolise the urging on of Lao troops.
The king’s belt features naga images which represent peace and morality, core philosophies of the ruler’s reign.”
Today VT cites Somsavat Lengsavad: “It is well known that Chao Anouvong was unable to achieve victory, but his determination to fight on reflected the depth of his devotion to maintaining the country’s independence”.
Would be interesting to know how the Thai media cover this event.
Dan asks a strange question: “What is your limit? What could Mr Amsterdam say, or claim on behalf of his client, that would you cause you to call him out?” By Dan’s own measure, that would be an impossible question to answer because, as he says, “You notice that I am not attacking his argument, but his motives and character…”. So nothing factual actually comes into it.
I merely pointed out that Amsterdam has no case, Amsterdam is bluffing and Amsterdam is full of nonsense (to which Thaksin’s personal lawyer seconded) and everyone at NM suddenly wishes to question my boy scout’s credentials. (I condemn people who sell their votes and sell their daughters, btw).
Toady over emotes. But Toady should take into consideration that “utmost restraint” I was referring to, was the military crackdown that PM Abhisit was trying his utmost to avoid (for three months while radical Reds launched indiscriminate deadly M79 grenade attacks and threatened violent attacks against Abhisit and key government/military officials). But it was a military crackdown response that the Reds leadership (at Thaksin’s direction of course) was specifically wishing/manipulating for in their malevolent belief any such military crackdown would be so out-of-control as to be bloody messy resulting in unconscionable number of fatalities and carnage that would provoke a city uprising that would topple Abhisit’s regime (That did not happen of course and the inevitable fatalities in the fog of the crackdown was thankfully minimized.)
Amsterdam and Thaksin are bluffing, people should realize that by now. Thaksin already rejected the Thai courts because in one of his pronouncements he declared his principle that only Thai people (with their votes) could judge him. Thaksin also rejected the United Nations in his notorious “the UN is not my father” rant during Thaksin’s extra-judicial deadly rampage in 2001-2002. Does anyone really believe Thaksin will willingly submit himself to be interrogated (and humiliated) by an International Court of Justice looking for answers to Thaksin’s role in the Reds violent protests during Black May 2010?
Burmese authorities have declared a 90 day State of Emergency in the country. Amongst other things, the SOE will outlaw political gatherings and require troops to remain on duty throughout the period.
Seems like Burma is becoming more like Thailand every day 🙂
True the Lao will probably be invaded by the chinese, True the laid back happy go lucky Lao attitude will disappear like smiles and politeness has disappeared from Thailand… But there the big brother ogre cum father Christmas was Uncle Sam.
Bouddhist principles and wisdom are no match for I Pod, (P)Lexus, Hummers and eagle crested residences.
Sure the Government will decide in favour of whom is givng the best bribe.
Sure Laos like every developing country will redo the very same mistakes the west did before and regrets. ( i.e. pollution, stress, overcrowding etc).
Nobody learns from other peoples mistake, every one learns from own mistakes eventually. Unfortunately, then the damage is done.
But the Lao population will adapt, it always did, the quiet polite peaceful Vientiane is progressively becoming rowdy aggressive, nosy, envious, frowning instead of smiling, even dangerous.
Just Like Thailand and Cambodia before under the other US -western economical and cultural invasion.
That is what comes with 9.5% growth and with increased number of US or Chinese influence to enhance the and praise the Greed that is latent in every human.
That is life, that’s evolution.
I will regret the old Lao, like I miss the times when I did not have to lock my door, fences were meant to keep animals in rather than people out, and when gardens were not surrounded by high prison-like walls topped with barbed electric wires.
…. but I will not pretend to know what is/will be, better for Lao people.
Back in my native country it is supposed to be democracy, but the politicians also take decisions that the majority of people disagree with. “Let them talk” or “shut them up” the two existing forms of govt.
Thailand has shown that a parliament properly managed so that it has a stooge majority poses no threat to military power. I am sure this is the reason why the Burmese military junta has decided to have one too. The treat to them may be remote, but the possibility that elected representatives may one day get out of control and take over the country makes this a step in the right direction.
I find the image of Thaksin’s mouthpiece wringing his hands over the killing of civilians to be deeply cynical, even obscene. However, it is his job to lie and distort on behalf of his client. That said, I’d argue that it’s the job of rational, disinterested thinkers to identify hypocrisy when they see it.
I find Mr Amsterdam quoting international rules against executions without trial to be over the top (if it was from someone who wasn’t trying to get his boss back into power I probably wouldn’t post. You notice that I am not attacking his argument, but his motives and character). But maybe I’ve just got too sort a fuse. So here’s a question for this somewhat crimson forum: What is your limit? What could Mr Amsterdam say, or claim on behalf of his client, that would you cause you to call him out?
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Local reporting on Burma’s election
john francis lee,
Exactly the prescription by Suzie Wong et al. A neoliberal version of economic determinism that’s being promoted with S Korea and Indonesia as examples. No surprise to some of us who see through the US, the wellspring of neoliberalism where markets and profits are clearly first and foremost, while democracy and human rights, like the American people, get lip service and take a second place.
Robert Amsterdam on Show Trials, Political Trials and Crimes Against Humanity
“Like I told everybody: Abhisit demonstrated “utmost restraint” while the Reds leadership was guilty , beyond reasonable doubt, of “inciting violence”.”
I’m done with this conversation. If shooting unarmed civilians in the street with automatic weapons is “utmost restraint”, I’d hate to see what you consider a firm hand to be…
You’re promoting violation of human rights and mass murder – disgusting.
Making states in the Cambodian-Lao borderlands
Thanks Keith, and good to know about the EIA/Global Witness report.
Unfortunately since I was not allowed to go with villagers on logging trips, I did not find out about where exactly they were harvesting from. But most said that there was little rosewood left in nearby areas of Virachey National Park in Cambodia and much more across the border in Laos (like in the Xe Pian National Protected Area to the northwest).
Regulation is very tough – for instance, even with World Bank pressure and resources relating to the Nam Theun 2 hydro project in central Laos, rosewood logging in the Nakai-Nam Theun NPA is still continuing.
One thing for sure, the illegality of rosewood trade (it is completely protected in Laos, not sure about Cambodia?) means that the majority of benefits go to powerful middlemen rather than the average villager/logger.
Size matters
Chao anuvong is not rebellion at all, every where when the negotiation was not succeed , then some side or both sides can announce the fight or the war. and another thing is that Chao anuvong did not defeated to Ya Moh , actually at that time Siam is supported modern weapon by European country. the legend of Ya Moh is only a made up story of Siam they are good of making up a story, especially to ashamed her enemy, or to cover their own dirtiness. thanks for read my poor English.
Size matters
Really interesting. As some others noted, there has been recent talk of others. In mid-2010 I saw a socialist-style memorial and statue of Souphanavong under construction near Thakek.
Are there more being built across Laos?
Robert Amsterdam on Show Trials, Political Trials and Crimes Against Humanity
Dan – 29
To me, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black, of one mass-murderer accusing another of mass-murder. So my question is, if you don’t think this is worth drawing attention to, what would be?
Now that you have an assumption there that I think worth to point out. First you assume that all the 2,300 cases were committed by state apparatus (pardon me if I misunderstood you), while (I think you can check in one of Bangkokpundit article) there are around 50 confirmed kill by policeman and the rest was still unconfirmed of who actually killed them. Furthermore out of that 2300, about 1,400 is not drug related so it could be just ordinary murder cases for all we know. To included every death bodies during the 3 months campaign as an extra-jurisdiction killing is grossly over estimated. Lastly, if you really study the drug trafficking network here in Thailand, you would know that it largely involve people from the military, politician, police, and even civil servant. Given the number of many high ranking officers who actually involved in drug trafficking its not so surprising that they will order their man to kill those small time seller that connect to them before the police can trace the evidence back to them.
Let me make myself clear a bit, I’m not defending Thaksin for the extra-jurisdiction killing, but I just want to point out that the drug trafficking network and the relationship between people who are running this business makes this issue a very sensitive and complex one.
Examining the “success” of a northern Thai Royal Project
Can I get the full thesis?
Please let me know
Thanks
Robert Amsterdam on Show Trials, Political Trials and Crimes Against Humanity
@Albert Park
I think you’re misinterpreting my point. To me, this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black, of one mass-murderer accusing another of mass-murder. So my question is, if you don’t think this is worth drawing attention to, what would be?
Actually the question is rhetorical. I would guess that there is nothing Robert Amsterdam could say on behalf of his client that would be criticised by the majority and the loudest voices in this forum (short of donning a yellow shirt and switching sides, I guess).
I’m a long-time reader of New Mandala, from the start actually, but I read via RSS, which doesn’t include comment threads. This is the first time I’ve posted a comment and I’m surprised that what I regard as a politically disinterested, balanced and informative source of news and analysis is dominated by Red ideologues.
What will happen in Burma after the election?
Yes, Moe Aung, I firmly hope for a civilian takeover both in Burma and in Thailand, but I should have been clearer. The present troubles in Myawaddy and other places make one wonder whether it would be possible to hold the union together under an elected civilian government. If a separate Karen State were to emerge, it could be a poorer, more corrupt and violent equivalent of Laos or Nepal. The tradition of the rule of law, the basis of civilian government, is desperately weak, not only in the backwoods of Burma. Kevin Rudd was right last night when he said something like, “Lasting peace in the region will be founded on rules-based relations between countries”. The same applies to relations between individuals, and between individuals and the State. A lot of work needs to be done so that these dreams can come true.
Local reporting on Burma’s election
Is change possible in Burma?
I think that is an accurate assessment of the ‘trend’ in the Thailand, the US, and the EU.
What will happen in Burma after the election?
The Thai Politics of Flood Control
(NM moderator: I am not certain where to post this . . . but at your discretion you could junk this poster – Vichai N)
Furious Ayutthaya farmers have slammed irrigation officials for not warning them before they diverted water from rivers to their farmlands during the recent effort to save Bangkok from run-off from the North.
”I’m only khon ban nok [country man],” said rice and straw mushroom farmer Somjit Wongkamhan, referring to the inferior image of farmers held by many Bangkok residents.
”Our paddies were submerged but how could we tell Bangkok folk to be aware of our sacrifice? The capital is important, but khon ban nok like me have no value.”
Mr Somjit’s 30 rai of paddy, three straw mushroom cultivation plants and gardens in Maha Rat district were all damaged by the flood. He said he had nothing to sell to earn money to repay his debts to the Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives, the Village Fund and non-bank lenders, worth 310,000 baht in total.
(Source: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/205240/farmers-slam-lack-of-diversion-warning)
I am not sure why NM was so slow to grab on this piece of news. Does it make sense to prolong the flood suffering of the Reds area specifically to spare ‘khon krungthep’ from partaking in the misery?
Size matters
In the past Laos always control by others countries.
This is the time that Laos can do what they think are
good for their country.
What will happen in Burma after the election?
Even Pakistan’s Musharraf seems to have taken a leaf out of the Burmese generals’ book demanding the army should have a constitutional role or else:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8035000/Gen-Musharraf-warns-of-Pakistan-coup-after-crisis-meeting-in-London.html
R. N. England,
“the possibility that elected representatives may one day get out of control and take over the country makes this a step in the right direction.”
With your tongue firmly in your cheek? Sure thing.
Suzie Wong #5 presumably was worried about just that sort of dilemma. Poor generals.
Perhaps the white man’s burden has transformed over the decades into the general’s burden. Perhaps we should forgive the white man and get him back. What d’you reckon, Suzie?
Size matters
These lines from Vientiane Times (3 November 2010) suggest a combination of militarism and morality:
“The statue faces the Mekong in a westerly direction, with the king’s left hand holding a sword as the right hand gestures forward to symbolise the urging on of Lao troops.
The king’s belt features naga images which represent peace and morality, core philosophies of the ruler’s reign.”
Today VT cites Somsavat Lengsavad: “It is well known that Chao Anouvong was unable to achieve victory, but his determination to fight on reflected the depth of his devotion to maintaining the country’s independence”.
Would be interesting to know how the Thai media cover this event.
Robert Amsterdam on Show Trials, Political Trials and Crimes Against Humanity
Dan asks a strange question: “What is your limit? What could Mr Amsterdam say, or claim on behalf of his client, that would you cause you to call him out?” By Dan’s own measure, that would be an impossible question to answer because, as he says, “You notice that I am not attacking his argument, but his motives and character…”. So nothing factual actually comes into it.
Robert Amsterdam on Show Trials, Political Trials and Crimes Against Humanity
I merely pointed out that Amsterdam has no case, Amsterdam is bluffing and Amsterdam is full of nonsense (to which Thaksin’s personal lawyer seconded) and everyone at NM suddenly wishes to question my boy scout’s credentials. (I condemn people who sell their votes and sell their daughters, btw).
Toady over emotes. But Toady should take into consideration that “utmost restraint” I was referring to, was the military crackdown that PM Abhisit was trying his utmost to avoid (for three months while radical Reds launched indiscriminate deadly M79 grenade attacks and threatened violent attacks against Abhisit and key government/military officials). But it was a military crackdown response that the Reds leadership (at Thaksin’s direction of course) was specifically wishing/manipulating for in their malevolent belief any such military crackdown would be so out-of-control as to be bloody messy resulting in unconscionable number of fatalities and carnage that would provoke a city uprising that would topple Abhisit’s regime (That did not happen of course and the inevitable fatalities in the fog of the crackdown was thankfully minimized.)
Amsterdam and Thaksin are bluffing, people should realize that by now. Thaksin already rejected the Thai courts because in one of his pronouncements he declared his principle that only Thai people (with their votes) could judge him. Thaksin also rejected the United Nations in his notorious “the UN is not my father” rant during Thaksin’s extra-judicial deadly rampage in 2001-2002. Does anyone really believe Thaksin will willingly submit himself to be interrogated (and humiliated) by an International Court of Justice looking for answers to Thaksin’s role in the Reds violent protests during Black May 2010?
Local reporting on Burma’s election
Burmese authorities have declared a 90 day State of Emergency in the country. Amongst other things, the SOE will outlaw political gatherings and require troops to remain on duty throughout the period.
Seems like Burma is becoming more like Thailand every day 🙂
The Western aid sector in Laos – days numbered?
True the Lao will probably be invaded by the chinese, True the laid back happy go lucky Lao attitude will disappear like smiles and politeness has disappeared from Thailand… But there the big brother ogre cum father Christmas was Uncle Sam.
Bouddhist principles and wisdom are no match for I Pod, (P)Lexus, Hummers and eagle crested residences.
Sure the Government will decide in favour of whom is givng the best bribe.
Sure Laos like every developing country will redo the very same mistakes the west did before and regrets. ( i.e. pollution, stress, overcrowding etc).
Nobody learns from other peoples mistake, every one learns from own mistakes eventually. Unfortunately, then the damage is done.
But the Lao population will adapt, it always did, the quiet polite peaceful Vientiane is progressively becoming rowdy aggressive, nosy, envious, frowning instead of smiling, even dangerous.
Just Like Thailand and Cambodia before under the other US -western economical and cultural invasion.
That is what comes with 9.5% growth and with increased number of US or Chinese influence to enhance the and praise the Greed that is latent in every human.
That is life, that’s evolution.
I will regret the old Lao, like I miss the times when I did not have to lock my door, fences were meant to keep animals in rather than people out, and when gardens were not surrounded by high prison-like walls topped with barbed electric wires.
…. but I will not pretend to know what is/will be, better for Lao people.
Back in my native country it is supposed to be democracy, but the politicians also take decisions that the majority of people disagree with. “Let them talk” or “shut them up” the two existing forms of govt.
What will happen in Burma after the election?
Thailand has shown that a parliament properly managed so that it has a stooge majority poses no threat to military power. I am sure this is the reason why the Burmese military junta has decided to have one too. The treat to them may be remote, but the possibility that elected representatives may one day get out of control and take over the country makes this a step in the right direction.
Robert Amsterdam on Show Trials, Political Trials and Crimes Against Humanity
Sorry to bring the debate back on point but…
I find the image of Thaksin’s mouthpiece wringing his hands over the killing of civilians to be deeply cynical, even obscene. However, it is his job to lie and distort on behalf of his client. That said, I’d argue that it’s the job of rational, disinterested thinkers to identify hypocrisy when they see it.
I find Mr Amsterdam quoting international rules against executions without trial to be over the top (if it was from someone who wasn’t trying to get his boss back into power I probably wouldn’t post. You notice that I am not attacking his argument, but his motives and character). But maybe I’ve just got too sort a fuse. So here’s a question for this somewhat crimson forum: What is your limit? What could Mr Amsterdam say, or claim on behalf of his client, that would you cause you to call him out?