” . . .I was surprised that you still claimed that vote buying is flourish after all the killing and pretty obvious leaderless protest . . “- Tarrin (#30)
I was talking about the ELECTIONS, past and coming, Tarrin. But funny for Tarrin to mix-up the recent violent Red rally with the coming elections and raise his buying (by Thaksin) doubts . . .
But for the answer to whether or not the recent violent Red rally was primarily BOUGHT and paid for by Thaksin – why Yes! Nattawut, a hardcore Red leader, was bought for Baht 10 million wasn’t he? And General Khattiya admitted as much too . . . if we recall the Khattiya’s public confession that the Khattiya armed and violent militants were approved by Thaksin. And we also recall the priest’s story about the recruitment of the Kloeng Toey slum hoodlums (Baht 2,000 or so per hooligan if I have not forgotten) and the Rachaprasong burning aftermath???
The circumstances speak loud and clear gentlemen . . . Thaksin buys, suborns and corrupts past, present and future.
I imagine the railway is a Chinese project, to be built by Chinese, aimed to satisfy Chinese needs. Surely the Chinese workers, undoubtedly nearly all males, will stay in Lao, marry and take over the country.
I’ve seen no news on the terms of the Chinese railway to be built through Thailand. Abhisit and Korn are presently according themselves the power to cut that deal, and all other international give-aways they might have in mind, behind closed doors, without consulting even the Thai parliament let alone the Thai people, via an amendment to the Military charter presently serving de facto as the law in Thailand.
I wonder how many Chinese workers it will take to build the Chinese railway through Thailand?
This has been the official priority since Abhisit put it as the first issue in his policy declaration. The latest ASTV Manager Weekly put the new army commander Prayuth on his cover page saying (in English) “Be my best bodyguard,” and calls him inside the commander who will fight against the movement to topple the monarchy.”
Before that, Democrat MP Sathit Pitutecha had already assisted by, “announcing that his Party confirmed that the movement to topple the monarchy really still existed. According to what Army Commander General Prayuth Chan-ocha had said, every sector had to join hands to take care of this issue. … There were support groups [regarding the goal to topple the monarchy] within the country that did not come out in the open but waited for the right time when it was close to the change of political power. Then there would be wide-spread violence of this movement [to topple the monarchy]. The [Democrat] Party asked every sector to join hands in protecting the monarchy, and having loyalty, so that the institution [of the monarchy] would be with the Thais forever” (Khao Sot, October 25, 2010:11).
Interesting you said
The Red politicians had so instilled the vote-buying culture to their supporters, that every election these Red politicians have to be prepared to have tons of red 100 baht notes at the ready.
I was surprise that you still claimed that vote buying is flourish after all the killing and pretty obvious leaderless protest which is only indicated that people actually came by themselves and not of money.
Furthermore, if you even look back to, say 15 years ago, you will know that the Dem never win the election in the NE so before Thaksin who was actually paying the poor present from the NE?
They [the Chinese workers] wont want to leave? I’d imagine it would be rather well received by youth who want to leave see and explore the world they’re coming into contact with through tourism. It’s the youth in Laos who the railway will be most important for. Fantastic news for them I think, especially if fares remain cheap.
With regards to logistics, good news for the north-south GMS corridor. Interesting that Bangkok will be pleased (gauging from the Thai officials response) given their apparent displeasure with increasing Chinese influence in Laos over other issues. Though maybe that’s just party political.
Should maps should be relabelled with GMS to cover the whole region soon? Should country names just be provincial titles, or could that be done away with altogether and instead just have city names reconstituted as mandala hubs, haha?
Les Abbey: Having “seen” enough fascists to have a established a sense of a fascist “norm”, perhaps you would care to share your criteria for determining what might properly be called a fascist regime.
Funny enough I will not go for the easy answer which would be a regime based on a fascist ideology. If I did we just could look for corporatism, nationalism, the prosecution of minorities and of course the end of democracy.
The reason I won’t take that easy path is I honestly don’t think ideology is that important to regimes that we refer to fascist in the end. Here I’m thinking of Mussolini’s Italy, Hitler’s Germany and Franco’s Spain. To me they were the right-wing’s last resort when capitalism was under threat from socialist forces. The ideology was secondary to the action of removing that threat.
So to answer your question with examples in my lifetime, Spain under Franco of course, Portugal under Caetano and Salazar, Chile under Pinochet and quite a few of the more obnoxious post-war South American military dictatorships.
Thailand? Well if you were prepared to go back to the Phibun era, possibly. As I said before, it’s a bit difficult to accuse Sonthi and Surayud of being fascists when they were handing power back to the politicians after a year. Also it’s a little difficult to see the socialist threat to capitalism in Thaksin and the TRT.
Again the point I’m making is using the word fascism, as in Jim’s use of Nattawut being part of the post-coup anti-fascist movement, is childish and does not help his argument. In fact makes it look rather silly. His get out of not really meaning fascism but using it as a replacement for Falangism also doesn’t really stand close scrutiny.
When an orator makes an inspirational speech exhorting a crowd of followers to act in a specific manner, he cannot personally be held responsible for their actions!
He sounds like a top fellow, by the sounds of this article.
Why has the regime thrown him in prison?
When an orator makes an inspirational speech exhorting a crowd of followers to act in a specific manner, he cannot personally be held responsible for their actions! What a peculiar position for the junta to take.
It’s not like he exhorted the crowd to burn Bangkok claiming he would take full responsibility for their burning of Bangkok – right? How can anyone hold him responsible for the crowd which burned Bangkok?
“I have to say these are the strangest fascists I have seen. Have you any links to other groups or political parties that consider Thailand is under a fascist regime? Anyone else on New Mandala think that the Abhisit government is fascist? ”
Les Abbey: Having “seen” enough fascists to have a established a sense of a fascist “norm”, perhaps you would care to share your criteria for determining what might properly be called a fascist regime.
You might also want to keep in mind that Jim was not referring to the “Abhisit government” in either his initial reference or the subsequent one, wherein he attempted to justify the label.
And in the spirit of your question, does anyone else on New Mandala think that the “Abhisit government” is in any way cognate with “the current regime in Thailand”?
Ngana I will support any proposal that will ensure that the Thai elections are fair and untainted the usual Thaksin vote buying.
But why else do you Ngana think Chalerm Yoobamrung keeps repeating the mantra that Peau Thai Party is a party of Thaksin, for Thaksin and only Thaksin? Because of the Thaksin money, of course! And why is the Thaksin money important for the next elections?
The Red politicians had so instilled the vote-buying culture to their supporters, that every election these Red politicians have to be prepared to have tons of red 100 baht notes at the ready.
But there are many self-evident reasons of course. Thaksin’s serial suborning/corrupting ways are so well-known . . . it’s just taken for granted the Thaksin rewards are forthcoming to those who serve the Thaksin cause. General Khattiya, Nattawut, Veera, Jatuporn . . . the whole Red Wild Bunch reports to Thaksin because of the Thaksin reward, what else?
Only a few weeks ago Chalerm Yoobamrung was mocking the Democrat Party for once having penniless (and former Thai PM) Chuan Leekpai as its party head while repeating the mantra that Peau Thai Party is the party of Thaksin and ONLY Thaksin because of . . . . Thaksin’s money (what else?).
Where is honorable purpose in the Red cause gentlemen if their cause is Thaksin and Thaksin money?
If you really believe that, Vichai, then you would obviously support (even agitate for) international election observers/monitors for the next election.
Lets see which political parties accept/reject such a proposal – will be a telling sign whether they believe electoral fraud is a significant factor or not 🙂
“Very interesting, WLH (3). You may have the evidence to refute my assertion that the Royal Family are firmly on one side. Would you care to elaborate?”
No, I don’t have any evidence, any more than you do that they are one united side. Nor am I asserting that cliques don’t both exist and benefit from favoritism and back-room power-brokering deals. I am simply taking issue with your initial assertion (or implication, as I saw it) that the royal family was monolithic in its support of factions within the army or police, when it’s quite possible that they are divided and factionalized and that several competing cliques are jockeying for favor and position. Is that such a radical position?
In following the saga of the Thai royal family and its role in Thai politics and power, one of the most fascinating sub-plots has been the distinction between member-loyal cliques. Those who prefer Sirindhorn to Vajiralakorn, for example. I just think that it’s a relevant part of any analysis, and your first post seemed to gloss it over.
I’d say that each member of the royal family is firmly on his or her own side, and that those sides overlap in places and not in others, and the supported cliques correspond. Wichean’s blandly conservative statements doesn’t suggest, to me, any kind of sudden behind-the-scenes unity. More like a pre-excuse to crack down on Reds. The royal factions would certainly unite behind that sentiment, but only temporarily.
“There is no ‘right’ choice (and that’s the thing that all colours, and no colours, need to understand and accept).” (#26)
Not that easy Ngana. Red politicians, more so than the rest, blatantly cheat at elections by massive vote-buying. I am beginning to think ‘Red’ represent the color of a 100 Baht note.
Darker days ahead – believe it.
This latest police announcement is merely a small piece of an elaborate jigsaw being assembled to make sure that the quake caused by the September 2006 dismissal is not needed again – unless, of course, it is…
The state machinery is apparently making significant progress in uprooting everything that gave Thaksin credibility.
In light of the Court’s jurisdiction, We must separate between the State party and the endeavor of persuasion. State party has basic rights to the Rome Statute while the endeavor is the basic struggles of non-state party to get admissibility for possible prosecution in the Court as case.
Core issue of the state party is that it is bound to and by the Court’s jurisdiction. For example, when the Court admits to prosecucute any individual accused on crime of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and crime of aggression, the state party of the accused bear its nationality or resident is bound as duty to send the accused to the Court. And when the Court launchs its judgment, the state party must abide by.
Trying to have the Court initiate the investigation is another case. It is the only one way of the non-state party trying to get reach the Court’s function. However, the non-state party that the accused bears nationality is not bound by any duty arising from the Rome Statute. The Court also has no power to exercise its jurisdiction over non-state party.
So, jurisdiction is the binding bridge emerges from the Rome Statute. But lacking of jurisdiction is not prevent the Court from initiate the investigation for possible prosecution, but it has no binding power.
As 3 organs can refer the situation to the Court for initiation of investigation— state party itself, UN Security Council and the Court’s Prosecutor proprio motu. So, submitting the preliminary report to the last one is the best available strategy. It can persuade the Prosecutor to initiate the investigation. However, as all treaty must be under Vienna Convention on Law of Treaty and Thailand is not the Rome Statute’s state party. In addition, one of exclusive principle governs the criminal procedure is “the accused must be tried before court,” So, the Court which lack jurisdiction unauthorized to admit Mr. Amsterdam’s complaint because of lacking the start point for effective prosecution. But if it stubbornly allowed to proceed, it thereby can not enforce the judgment. Mr.Amsterdam’s strategy is to notify the world what are camouflaged under Thai special democracy.
Just in case anyone is doubtful of the value of the rosewood (Dalbergia spp.) being harvested illegally from areas of Southeast Asia and Africa– see this recent and fascinating Environmental Investigative Agency/Global Witness report:
The report traces through the value chain of rosewood, from illegal harvest in a protected forest in Madagascar, to export, manufacturing and sale as luxury indoor furniture in China.
In Shanghai, an artisan-crafted rosewood cabinet sells for US$60,000, and a rosewood bed, made from 3 cubic meters of Dalbergia timber, for US$1 million!
Sarinda: based on your field experience in the northern border regions, where most of the remaining Cambodian rosewood is to be found these days, do you see any realistic options for improving the regulation of this trade?
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Come the revolution?
” . . .I was surprised that you still claimed that vote buying is flourish after all the killing and pretty obvious leaderless protest . . “- Tarrin (#30)
I was talking about the ELECTIONS, past and coming, Tarrin. But funny for Tarrin to mix-up the recent violent Red rally with the coming elections and raise his buying (by Thaksin) doubts . . .
But for the answer to whether or not the recent violent Red rally was primarily BOUGHT and paid for by Thaksin – why Yes! Nattawut, a hardcore Red leader, was bought for Baht 10 million wasn’t he? And General Khattiya admitted as much too . . . if we recall the Khattiya’s public confession that the Khattiya armed and violent militants were approved by Thaksin. And we also recall the priest’s story about the recruitment of the Kloeng Toey slum hoodlums (Baht 2,000 or so per hooligan if I have not forgotten) and the Rachaprasong burning aftermath???
The circumstances speak loud and clear gentlemen . . . Thaksin buys, suborns and corrupts past, present and future.
Railroad ready to roll in Laos
I think the opening up of landlocked mainland South-east Asia is a good thing – if done well of course.
The challenge is to ensure that the new opportunities, prosperity & risk that comes with it is distributed well (if not equitably).
This would among other things, require obviously better participation by the citizens of Laos in decisions made
Railroad ready to roll in Laos
I imagine the railway is a Chinese project, to be built by Chinese, aimed to satisfy Chinese needs. Surely the Chinese workers, undoubtedly nearly all males, will stay in Lao, marry and take over the country.
I’ve seen no news on the terms of the Chinese railway to be built through Thailand. Abhisit and Korn are presently according themselves the power to cut that deal, and all other international give-aways they might have in mind, behind closed doors, without consulting even the Thai parliament let alone the Thai people, via an amendment to the Military charter presently serving de facto as the law in Thailand.
I wonder how many Chinese workers it will take to build the Chinese railway through Thailand?
Priority number one
This has been the official priority since Abhisit put it as the first issue in his policy declaration. The latest ASTV Manager Weekly put the new army commander Prayuth on his cover page saying (in English) “Be my best bodyguard,” and calls him inside the commander who will fight against the movement to topple the monarchy.”
Before that, Democrat MP Sathit Pitutecha had already assisted by, “announcing that his Party confirmed that the movement to topple the monarchy really still existed. According to what Army Commander General Prayuth Chan-ocha had said, every sector had to join hands to take care of this issue. … There were support groups [regarding the goal to topple the monarchy] within the country that did not come out in the open but waited for the right time when it was close to the change of political power. Then there would be wide-spread violence of this movement [to topple the monarchy]. The [Democrat] Party asked every sector to join hands in protecting the monarchy, and having loyalty, so that the institution [of the monarchy] would be with the Thais forever” (Khao Sot, October 25, 2010:11).
Come the revolution?
Vichai N – 30
Interesting you said
The Red politicians had so instilled the vote-buying culture to their supporters, that every election these Red politicians have to be prepared to have tons of red 100 baht notes at the ready.
I was surprise that you still claimed that vote buying is flourish after all the killing and pretty obvious leaderless protest which is only indicated that people actually came by themselves and not of money.
Furthermore, if you even look back to, say 15 years ago, you will know that the Dem never win the election in the NE so before Thaksin who was actually paying the poor present from the NE?
Railroad ready to roll in Laos
They [the Chinese workers] wont want to leave? I’d imagine it would be rather well received by youth who want to
leavesee and explore the world they’re coming into contact with through tourism. It’s the youth in Laos who the railway will be most important for. Fantastic news for them I think, especially if fares remain cheap.With regards to logistics, good news for the north-south GMS corridor. Interesting that Bangkok will be pleased (gauging from the Thai officials response) given their apparent displeasure with increasing Chinese influence in Laos over other issues. Though maybe that’s just party political.
Should maps should be relabelled with GMS to cover the whole region soon? Should country names just be provincial titles, or could that be done away with altogether and instead just have city names reconstituted as mandala hubs, haha?
Once a Jolly Hangman: Singapore Justice in the Dock
Damn! These Singaporeans are good.
Yes, read your postings of your experience.
There is a fear (or reality) that drug money from Afghanistan is funding terrorism in the region.
Does this money also go through Singapore?
Review of Nattawut Saikua biography
Emjay – 32
Les Abbey: Having “seen” enough fascists to have a established a sense of a fascist “norm”, perhaps you would care to share your criteria for determining what might properly be called a fascist regime.
Funny enough I will not go for the easy answer which would be a regime based on a fascist ideology. If I did we just could look for corporatism, nationalism, the prosecution of minorities and of course the end of democracy.
The reason I won’t take that easy path is I honestly don’t think ideology is that important to regimes that we refer to fascist in the end. Here I’m thinking of Mussolini’s Italy, Hitler’s Germany and Franco’s Spain. To me they were the right-wing’s last resort when capitalism was under threat from socialist forces. The ideology was secondary to the action of removing that threat.
So to answer your question with examples in my lifetime, Spain under Franco of course, Portugal under Caetano and Salazar, Chile under Pinochet and quite a few of the more obnoxious post-war South American military dictatorships.
Thailand? Well if you were prepared to go back to the Phibun era, possibly. As I said before, it’s a bit difficult to accuse Sonthi and Surayud of being fascists when they were handing power back to the politicians after a year. Also it’s a little difficult to see the socialist threat to capitalism in Thaksin and the TRT.
Again the point I’m making is using the word fascism, as in Jim’s use of Nattawut being part of the post-coup anti-fascist movement, is childish and does not help his argument. In fact makes it look rather silly. His get out of not really meaning fascism but using it as a replacement for Falangism also doesn’t really stand close scrutiny.
Review of Nattawut Saikua biography
Justin J. Mitchell – 33
When an orator makes an inspirational speech exhorting a crowd of followers to act in a specific manner, he cannot personally be held responsible for their actions!
Ha-ha. Certainly not.
Review of Nattawut Saikua biography
He sounds like a top fellow, by the sounds of this article.
Why has the regime thrown him in prison?
When an orator makes an inspirational speech exhorting a crowd of followers to act in a specific manner, he cannot personally be held responsible for their actions! What a peculiar position for the junta to take.
It’s not like he exhorted the crowd to burn Bangkok claiming he would take full responsibility for their burning of Bangkok – right? How can anyone hold him responsible for the crowd which burned Bangkok?
Review of Nattawut Saikua biography
“I have to say these are the strangest fascists I have seen. Have you any links to other groups or political parties that consider Thailand is under a fascist regime? Anyone else on New Mandala think that the Abhisit government is fascist? ”
Les Abbey: Having “seen” enough fascists to have a established a sense of a fascist “norm”, perhaps you would care to share your criteria for determining what might properly be called a fascist regime.
You might also want to keep in mind that Jim was not referring to the “Abhisit government” in either his initial reference or the subsequent one, wherein he attempted to justify the label.
And in the spirit of your question, does anyone else on New Mandala think that the “Abhisit government” is in any way cognate with “the current regime in Thailand”?
Come the revolution?
Ngana I will support any proposal that will ensure that the Thai elections are fair and untainted the usual Thaksin vote buying.
But why else do you Ngana think Chalerm Yoobamrung keeps repeating the mantra that Peau Thai Party is a party of Thaksin, for Thaksin and only Thaksin? Because of the Thaksin money, of course! And why is the Thaksin money important for the next elections?
The Red politicians had so instilled the vote-buying culture to their supporters, that every election these Red politicians have to be prepared to have tons of red 100 baht notes at the ready.
Review of Nattawut Saikua biography
“I think you have to assume the story (of Nattawut’s Baht 10 million paycheck) is apocryphal.” (#29)
But I already gave ONE of my reasons for believing BangkokDan’s http://absolutelybangkok.com/a-real-ultimatum-really/; which is,
I admire BangkokDan.
But there are many self-evident reasons of course. Thaksin’s serial suborning/corrupting ways are so well-known . . . it’s just taken for granted the Thaksin rewards are forthcoming to those who serve the Thaksin cause. General Khattiya, Nattawut, Veera, Jatuporn . . . the whole Red Wild Bunch reports to Thaksin because of the Thaksin reward, what else?
Only a few weeks ago Chalerm Yoobamrung was mocking the Democrat Party for once having penniless (and former Thai PM) Chuan Leekpai as its party head while repeating the mantra that Peau Thai Party is the party of Thaksin and ONLY Thaksin because of . . . . Thaksin’s money (what else?).
Where is honorable purpose in the Red cause gentlemen if their cause is Thaksin and Thaksin money?
Come the revolution?
If you really believe that, Vichai, then you would obviously support (even agitate for) international election observers/monitors for the next election.
Lets see which political parties accept/reject such a proposal – will be a telling sign whether they believe electoral fraud is a significant factor or not 🙂
Priority number one
RN@5:
“Very interesting, WLH (3). You may have the evidence to refute my assertion that the Royal Family are firmly on one side. Would you care to elaborate?”
No, I don’t have any evidence, any more than you do that they are one united side. Nor am I asserting that cliques don’t both exist and benefit from favoritism and back-room power-brokering deals. I am simply taking issue with your initial assertion (or implication, as I saw it) that the royal family was monolithic in its support of factions within the army or police, when it’s quite possible that they are divided and factionalized and that several competing cliques are jockeying for favor and position. Is that such a radical position?
In following the saga of the Thai royal family and its role in Thai politics and power, one of the most fascinating sub-plots has been the distinction between member-loyal cliques. Those who prefer Sirindhorn to Vajiralakorn, for example. I just think that it’s a relevant part of any analysis, and your first post seemed to gloss it over.
I’d say that each member of the royal family is firmly on his or her own side, and that those sides overlap in places and not in others, and the supported cliques correspond. Wichean’s blandly conservative statements doesn’t suggest, to me, any kind of sudden behind-the-scenes unity. More like a pre-excuse to crack down on Reds. The royal factions would certainly unite behind that sentiment, but only temporarily.
Come the revolution?
“There is no ‘right’ choice (and that’s the thing that all colours, and no colours, need to understand and accept).” (#26)
Not that easy Ngana. Red politicians, more so than the rest, blatantly cheat at elections by massive vote-buying. I am beginning to think ‘Red’ represent the color of a 100 Baht note.
Priority number one
Darker days ahead – believe it.
This latest police announcement is merely a small piece of an elaborate jigsaw being assembled to make sure that the quake caused by the September 2006 dismissal is not needed again – unless, of course, it is…
The state machinery is apparently making significant progress in uprooting everything that gave Thaksin credibility.
Robert Amsterdam’s preliminary submission to the International Criminal Court
In light of the Court’s jurisdiction, We must separate between the State party and the endeavor of persuasion. State party has basic rights to the Rome Statute while the endeavor is the basic struggles of non-state party to get admissibility for possible prosecution in the Court as case.
Core issue of the state party is that it is bound to and by the Court’s jurisdiction. For example, when the Court admits to prosecucute any individual accused on crime of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and crime of aggression, the state party of the accused bear its nationality or resident is bound as duty to send the accused to the Court. And when the Court launchs its judgment, the state party must abide by.
Trying to have the Court initiate the investigation is another case. It is the only one way of the non-state party trying to get reach the Court’s function. However, the non-state party that the accused bears nationality is not bound by any duty arising from the Rome Statute. The Court also has no power to exercise its jurisdiction over non-state party.
So, jurisdiction is the binding bridge emerges from the Rome Statute. But lacking of jurisdiction is not prevent the Court from initiate the investigation for possible prosecution, but it has no binding power.
As 3 organs can refer the situation to the Court for initiation of investigation— state party itself, UN Security Council and the Court’s Prosecutor proprio motu. So, submitting the preliminary report to the last one is the best available strategy. It can persuade the Prosecutor to initiate the investigation. However, as all treaty must be under Vienna Convention on Law of Treaty and Thailand is not the Rome Statute’s state party. In addition, one of exclusive principle governs the criminal procedure is “the accused must be tried before court,” So, the Court which lack jurisdiction unauthorized to admit Mr. Amsterdam’s complaint because of lacking the start point for effective prosecution. But if it stubbornly allowed to proceed, it thereby can not enforce the judgment. Mr.Amsterdam’s strategy is to notify the world what are camouflaged under Thai special democracy.
Making states in the Cambodian-Lao borderlands
Here is a better link to the EIA/GW report:
http://www.globalwitness.org/media_library_detail.php/1075/en/luxury_consumer_market_fuelling_illegal_destruction_of_madagascars_forests_says_new_report
Making states in the Cambodian-Lao borderlands
re: “The quest for rosewood”
Just in case anyone is doubtful of the value of the rosewood (Dalbergia spp.) being harvested illegally from areas of Southeast Asia and Africa– see this recent and fascinating Environmental Investigative Agency/Global Witness report:
http://www.globalwitness.org/media_library_get…/mada_report_261010.pdf
The report traces through the value chain of rosewood, from illegal harvest in a protected forest in Madagascar, to export, manufacturing and sale as luxury indoor furniture in China.
In Shanghai, an artisan-crafted rosewood cabinet sells for US$60,000, and a rosewood bed, made from 3 cubic meters of Dalbergia timber, for US$1 million!
Sarinda: based on your field experience in the northern border regions, where most of the remaining Cambodian rosewood is to be found these days, do you see any realistic options for improving the regulation of this trade?