@Ricky Ward:
Well you could read “the blue whale will not prevail” on some signs. Everone with political interests in Thailand should be able to understand this.
” . . .Nor do they fail to understand that public enlightenment is the foundation of democracy. They do their best to keep the public’s business in the dimmest possible light in order to weaken democracy’s foundation as much as they possibly can.” – JohnFrancisLee (#13)
The thing is . . the people of Bangkok and most of Thailand already believe that when it comes to the Reds politics and Thaksin’s ‘democracy’ pronouncements, they need no further enlightenment. Each additional or ‘new’ revelation about the Reds-Thaksin connection, and, the Reds violent tactics (during the Black May 2010 rampage of bombings and arson) merely reinforce their view that the Reds are dangerous, the Reds are violent and in view of that, the Reds are totally lacking of credibility to draw public sympathy nor the public’s ‘understanding’ that the Reds are fighting for ‘their good or their democracy’.
” . . . Sean Boonracong, the UDD’s de facto spokesman, . . . also confessed that the UDD’s deployment of armed ‘black shirts’ was a ‘big mistake’ and undermined the group’s claim to non-violent struggle it is now bidding to re-establish. ‘It was a massacre, but we didn’t get the Tiananmen Square effect in the eyes of the world because a few protesters were under arms.’ . . .”
Lean Hoy – If wouldn’t know or care less whether the government sponsored (paid perhaps) Udon rallies had 50,000 protesters or 5. NY Times probably felt the same way. Because “pro”government rallies are always a waste of time . . . suspicious and dubious in conduct and purpose. If the pro-government rally’s objective was divert attention away from the Reds Bangkok protests, that objective had failed (as it should be it). But if that pro-government rally’s purpose was to to drive Red sympathizers ‘crazy’ . . . it was a resounding success, just from the reaction from one Leah Hoy.
Seeing “Finland Plan” I thought of a plan commissioned by the Prem government; where I think it was Finland folk who wrote a lengthy report about what to do about the mess one might call forest management.
I think the plan called for privatization of plantations but never was implemented.
Anusorn’s comment No 5 (excerpt below) invites us to read between the lines in ways we cannot say.
“judging from what was written on the streets and especially on the vinyl boards, now the focus has been shifted from Abhisit, Prem, and the CRES to those who are thought to be held responsible for the brutal crackdowns on the Red Shirts. ”
Looking forward to the new book release if it is not banned in Siam.
As regards Leah @ 7 and Suzie @ 8 I think you are far too “charitable” to the Bangkok Post and the other reactionary English-language rag in Bangkok.
Not only was the Bangkok Post acting as propagandist for the military regime, as it has for every military regime, it also failed even to mention the fact that Newin, the Thai Newin, was doling out state funds to counteract his political opponents. That would be the end of his career in a civilized country whereas it’s business as usual in Thailand. And it’s business as usual in Thailand, thanks in large part to the Bangkok Post’s complicity.
The Bangkok Post and the other reactionary rag are quite capable of distinguishing advocacy from news reporting, and they are consciously in the advocacy business.
Nor do they fail to understand that public enlightenment is the foundation of democracy. They do their best to keep the public’s business in the dimmest possible light in order to weaken democracy’s foundation as much as they possibly can.
We are not talking about “journalists” here, we are talking about propagandists. Institutions playing integral parts in the political struggle in Thailand, playing with the “elite” and against democracy and the people. The Bangkok Post and the other counterreactionary rag are some of the baddest of the bad guys.
I didn’t see any reference to the massive 50,000 person Udon protest in the NY Times article.
I don’t think you, or anyone, can argue that the 50,000 figure is anything but baseless political lie. The Bangkok Post reported this as a fact, although they had to know it was not. The article didn’t say “The Interior Ministry claimed..”
SW said ““The Bangkok Post” and “the Nation” fail to understand that public enlightenment is the foundation of democracy.”
But I disagree, I think the Thai elite and their mouthpieces know exactly what Democracy is and what it will do to their lives of privilege – otherwise they wouldn’t be attacking it with such fury.
Democracy is fundamentally inconsistent with a couple of the things that support the system that is so good to them. Military enforcement is one of those.
Prachatai has a youtube channel… but of course its blocked by the SLORC in Thailand.
Looks like tens of thousands to me. Not scared either. Looks more like March than May… although no one will ever forget the mass murder ordered by and carried out by the Abhisit Regime in May 2010.
Yesterday the FST march from TU Tha Pra Chan campus to the Democracy Monument.
Thanks for the news Khun Tarrin. It’s good to hear of the FST’s activity. What is the FST? Federation of Students Thailand? Are these members of the same organization whose signs were torn up at Chulalongkorn for quoting Abhisit to Abhisit? Are they the same organization that has released several calls and petitions for an end to the oppression of Red shirts, an end to censorship, and an election?
I did not see news of their march from Thammasat to the Democracy monument. I am heartened to hear of it.
If the NYTimes story is to be believed, The Bangkok Post was about right at the estimate of 10,000 Reds attending the Bangkok protests yesterday September 20/2010.
NY Times: ” . . .’The reds are not scared anymore,’said Sombat Boonngamanong, who helped organize the protest through Facebook and other social networks . . . The police and protest leaders alike said they were surprised by the turnout, which Mr. Sombat Boonngamanong estimated at 10,000.
Interesting point of view, “Where are the young people that have been on the Phan Fah Stage at the off peak PPTV times when Jatuporn and Nattawut were mao?”
It seems like you never notice to FST movement lately. Yesterday the FST march from TU Tha Pra Chan campus to the Democracy Monument. They made a very stunning declaration there, almost sound the same as the 6 statement that the People Assembly made after the revolution of 1932. Then they join up with the red at Ratchaprasong, so there you go, those young people that you were asking for actually start to make their move, and I’m so glad they do.
However, Im strongly agree with you on one point.
What Thailand needs are people willing to take responsabilities !
On all levels. Especially on the non electable level.
We exit home around 5 into a very quiet traffic around Sathorn, took the skytrain and get off at Siam. As the train bent over Ratchaprasong intersection people gathered on the right side of the car to look down to a red river of people taking over the Ratchaprasong area from Erawan Shrine to Pratunam and from Wat Pratum to Chidlom.
Most of the sky-train commuters got off the train and walked into Siam Paragon, normally overflowing with people and Sunday events. We walked back in the direction of Ratchaprasong, meeting flock of people dressed in red leaving the area. As we walked over the skywalk a feeling of déj├а vu fills the air. People dress in red everywhere, street-vendors calmly occupying big chunks of the pathways with tables and chairs and a thick smell of fermented fish. Some people free red balloons with white question marks on them inside Wat Pratum as other curious walk around the temple, revisiting the place of the tragedy.
We walk down into the crowd and we overhear all around us people recounting the story of the dead, of the snipers on the skytrain tracks, and the fear of the last days of the May protest. Along the way arriving to the intersection chalks outlines of dead bodies have been traced on the pathways, syncopating the walk to Ratchaprasong and laying silent on the concrete in front of the growing wall of design-inspired state propaganda. Messages of hope, tranquility, harmony, and security in English who seems to over-simplify the political conflict more than ease it. Among these messages an unsettling…
(continues on sopranz.blogspot.com)
Deliberate distortion is permissible in “the Bangkok Post” and “the Nation” news reporting because the only two English language newspapers in Thailand are unable to distinguish between advocacy and news reporting.
“The Bangkok Post” and “the Nation” fail to understand that public enlightenment is the foundation of democracy. Conscientious journalists strive to serve the public with honesty; seek truth and report it. Those who cannot read Thai language are the ones who affected by this distorted journalism. The simple fact is, “There was no 50,000 pro-gov in Udon!”
Death threats are a staple of the serious field researcher in southern Laos. Actually the strong imperative against (visible) violence in Lao Loum culture means that there is no strong expectation that such threats will need to be carried out. Perhaps I should rephrase that as the cultural imperative that the non-elite will through shear passivity enforse their own lack of power. Lao looks remarkably peaceful to visitors, but it is a weakness not a virtue – the sheer willingness to submit in order to have peace is the single most important lever that the elites have over the population to ensure the status quo. Be peaceful and be poor, people know that is their role, and the guns and threats symbolise this without having to be used. It is a perfect social system that consistently delivers a predictable outcome.
Sounds like Sarinda has discovered that Cambodians on the Lao border are no different from anyone else in SE Asia. Almost all the attitudes are common to even the rich businessmen of Bangkok.
Which is a bit strange since it is the Indians of all people who have raised everyday resistance to the rule of law and the state to an art form.
Playing the same old tunes of Thaksins Pied Pipers only with a slightly revised text (No Thaksin ,No money, No justice,No democrazy)
does not reform a society.
Mingling Marx and Trotzkis thesis with the misery of the present Thai society is utterly rubbish.
I totally agree that Thailand is ruled by selfish,corrupt and self proclaimed “Elites”……
but Thaksin Shinawatra and Giles Ji Unpakorn
have been integral part of it!
As well as Thaksins gooofs which are now playing the “victims””
Where are the young people that have been on the Phan Fah Stage
at the off peak PPTV times when Jatuporn and Nattawut were mao?
Never heard of them again.
What Thailand needs are people willing to take responsabilities !
On all levels.
Especially on the non electable level.
Runaway from responsability is the usual way of Thai men to
solve their problems.
So did Thaksin Shinawatra and Giles Ji Ungpakorn.
And now they both want to be the Thai Version
of Aung San Suuji, Nelson Mandela and Mother Teresa.
All in one. Thai style..
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September 19 – redshirt gatherings
@Ricky Ward:
Well you could read “the blue whale will not prevail” on some signs. Everone with political interests in Thailand should be able to understand this.
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
” . . .Nor do they fail to understand that public enlightenment is the foundation of democracy. They do their best to keep the public’s business in the dimmest possible light in order to weaken democracy’s foundation as much as they possibly can.” – JohnFrancisLee (#13)
The thing is . . the people of Bangkok and most of Thailand already believe that when it comes to the Reds politics and Thaksin’s ‘democracy’ pronouncements, they need no further enlightenment. Each additional or ‘new’ revelation about the Reds-Thaksin connection, and, the Reds violent tactics (during the Black May 2010 rampage of bombings and arson) merely reinforce their view that the Reds are dangerous, the Reds are violent and in view of that, the Reds are totally lacking of credibility to draw public sympathy nor the public’s ‘understanding’ that the Reds are fighting for ‘their good or their democracy’.
Another Red revelation (source Asia Times Sep-21-2010) “Thai colors bleed a complicated mosaic” By Shawn W Crispin
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LI21Ae01.html
” . . . Sean Boonracong, the UDD’s de facto spokesman, . . . also confessed that the UDD’s deployment of armed ‘black shirts’ was a ‘big mistake’ and undermined the group’s claim to non-violent struggle it is now bidding to re-establish. ‘It was a massacre, but we didn’t get the Tiananmen Square effect in the eyes of the world because a few protesters were under arms.’ . . .”
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
Lean Hoy – If wouldn’t know or care less whether the government sponsored (paid perhaps) Udon rallies had 50,000 protesters or 5. NY Times probably felt the same way. Because “pro”government rallies are always a waste of time . . . suspicious and dubious in conduct and purpose. If the pro-government rally’s objective was divert attention away from the Reds Bangkok protests, that objective had failed (as it should be it). But if that pro-government rally’s purpose was to to drive Red sympathizers ‘crazy’ . . . it was a resounding success, just from the reaction from one Leah Hoy.
Saying the unsayable about Thailand’s monarchy
Seeing “Finland Plan” I thought of a plan commissioned by the Prem government; where I think it was Finland folk who wrote a lengthy report about what to do about the mess one might call forest management.
I think the plan called for privatization of plantations but never was implemented.
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
Anusorn’s comment No 5 (excerpt below) invites us to read between the lines in ways we cannot say.
“judging from what was written on the streets and especially on the vinyl boards, now the focus has been shifted from Abhisit, Prem, and the CRES to those who are thought to be held responsible for the brutal crackdowns on the Red Shirts. ”
Looking forward to the new book release if it is not banned in Siam.
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
As regards Leah @ 7 and Suzie @ 8 I think you are far too “charitable” to the Bangkok Post and the other reactionary English-language rag in Bangkok.
Not only was the Bangkok Post acting as propagandist for the military regime, as it has for every military regime, it also failed even to mention the fact that Newin, the Thai Newin, was doling out state funds to counteract his political opponents. That would be the end of his career in a civilized country whereas it’s business as usual in Thailand. And it’s business as usual in Thailand, thanks in large part to the Bangkok Post’s complicity.
The Bangkok Post and the other reactionary rag are quite capable of distinguishing advocacy from news reporting, and they are consciously in the advocacy business.
Nor do they fail to understand that public enlightenment is the foundation of democracy. They do their best to keep the public’s business in the dimmest possible light in order to weaken democracy’s foundation as much as they possibly can.
We are not talking about “journalists” here, we are talking about propagandists. Institutions playing integral parts in the political struggle in Thailand, playing with the “elite” and against democracy and the people. The Bangkok Post and the other counterreactionary rag are some of the baddest of the bad guys.
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
MattB,
I didn’t see any reference to the massive 50,000 person Udon protest in the NY Times article.
I don’t think you, or anyone, can argue that the 50,000 figure is anything but baseless political lie. The Bangkok Post reported this as a fact, although they had to know it was not. The article didn’t say “The Interior Ministry claimed..”
SW said ““The Bangkok Post” and “the Nation” fail to understand that public enlightenment is the foundation of democracy.”
But I disagree, I think the Thai elite and their mouthpieces know exactly what Democracy is and what it will do to their lives of privilege – otherwise they wouldn’t be attacking it with such fury.
Democracy is fundamentally inconsistent with a couple of the things that support the system that is so good to them. Military enforcement is one of those.
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
A very nice segment on the Commemoration of the Coup of 2006 and of the May Massacre from Prachatai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTL8Sdw1cnA
Prachatai has a youtube channel… but of course its blocked by the SLORC in Thailand.
Looks like tens of thousands to me. Not scared either. Looks more like March than May… although no one will ever forget the mass murder ordered by and carried out by the Abhisit Regime in May 2010.
Two statements on the fourth anniversary of Thailand’s coup
Yesterday the FST march from TU Tha Pra Chan campus to the Democracy Monument.
Thanks for the news Khun Tarrin. It’s good to hear of the FST’s activity. What is the FST? Federation of Students Thailand? Are these members of the same organization whose signs were torn up at Chulalongkorn for quoting Abhisit to Abhisit? Are they the same organization that has released several calls and petitions for an end to the oppression of Red shirts, an end to censorship, and an election?
I did not see news of their march from Thammasat to the Democracy monument. I am heartened to hear of it.
Saying the unsayable about Thailand’s monarchy
See his other credits on Amazon here…
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&field-author=Soren%20Ivarsson
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
If the NYTimes story is to be believed, The Bangkok Post was about right at the estimate of 10,000 Reds attending the Bangkok protests yesterday September 20/2010.
NY Times: ” . . .’The reds are not scared anymore,’said Sombat Boonngamanong, who helped organize the protest through Facebook and other social networks . . . The police and protest leaders alike said they were surprised by the turnout, which Mr. Sombat Boonngamanong estimated at 10,000.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/20/world/asia/20thai.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
Two statements on the fourth anniversary of Thailand’s coup
bernd grimm – 4
Interesting point of view, “Where are the young people that have been on the Phan Fah Stage at the off peak PPTV times when Jatuporn and Nattawut were mao?”
It seems like you never notice to FST movement lately. Yesterday the FST march from TU Tha Pra Chan campus to the Democracy Monument. They made a very stunning declaration there, almost sound the same as the 6 statement that the People Assembly made after the revolution of 1932. Then they join up with the red at Ratchaprasong, so there you go, those young people that you were asking for actually start to make their move, and I’m so glad they do.
However, Im strongly agree with you on one point.
What Thailand needs are people willing to take responsabilities !
On all levels.
Especially on the non electable level.
Making states in the Cambodian-Lao borderlands
[…] Source, pictures and comments here… […]
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
We exit home around 5 into a very quiet traffic around Sathorn, took the skytrain and get off at Siam. As the train bent over Ratchaprasong intersection people gathered on the right side of the car to look down to a red river of people taking over the Ratchaprasong area from Erawan Shrine to Pratunam and from Wat Pratum to Chidlom.
Most of the sky-train commuters got off the train and walked into Siam Paragon, normally overflowing with people and Sunday events. We walked back in the direction of Ratchaprasong, meeting flock of people dressed in red leaving the area. As we walked over the skywalk a feeling of déj├а vu fills the air. People dress in red everywhere, street-vendors calmly occupying big chunks of the pathways with tables and chairs and a thick smell of fermented fish. Some people free red balloons with white question marks on them inside Wat Pratum as other curious walk around the temple, revisiting the place of the tragedy.
We walk down into the crowd and we overhear all around us people recounting the story of the dead, of the snipers on the skytrain tracks, and the fear of the last days of the May protest. Along the way arriving to the intersection chalks outlines of dead bodies have been traced on the pathways, syncopating the walk to Ratchaprasong and laying silent on the concrete in front of the growing wall of design-inspired state propaganda. Messages of hope, tranquility, harmony, and security in English who seems to over-simplify the political conflict more than ease it. Among these messages an unsettling…
(continues on sopranz.blogspot.com)
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
Deliberate distortion is permissible in “the Bangkok Post” and “the Nation” news reporting because the only two English language newspapers in Thailand are unable to distinguish between advocacy and news reporting.
“The Bangkok Post” and “the Nation” fail to understand that public enlightenment is the foundation of democracy. Conscientious journalists strive to serve the public with honesty; seek truth and report it. Those who cannot read Thai language are the ones who affected by this distorted journalism. The simple fact is, “There was no 50,000 pro-gov in Udon!”
Making states in the Cambodian-Lao borderlands
Death threats are a staple of the serious field researcher in southern Laos. Actually the strong imperative against (visible) violence in Lao Loum culture means that there is no strong expectation that such threats will need to be carried out. Perhaps I should rephrase that as the cultural imperative that the non-elite will through shear passivity enforse their own lack of power. Lao looks remarkably peaceful to visitors, but it is a weakness not a virtue – the sheer willingness to submit in order to have peace is the single most important lever that the elites have over the population to ensure the status quo. Be peaceful and be poor, people know that is their role, and the guns and threats symbolise this without having to be used. It is a perfect social system that consistently delivers a predictable outcome.
Making states in the Cambodian-Lao borderlands
Sounds like Sarinda has discovered that Cambodians on the Lao border are no different from anyone else in SE Asia. Almost all the attitudes are common to even the rich businessmen of Bangkok.
Which is a bit strange since it is the Indians of all people who have raised everyday resistance to the rule of law and the state to an art form.
Two statements on the fourth anniversary of Thailand’s coup
Will the real REDS please stand up!
Playing the same old tunes of Thaksins Pied Pipers only with a slightly revised text (No Thaksin ,No money, No justice,No democrazy)
does not reform a society.
Mingling Marx and Trotzkis thesis with the misery of the present Thai society is utterly rubbish.
I totally agree that Thailand is ruled by selfish,corrupt and self proclaimed “Elites”……
but Thaksin Shinawatra and Giles Ji Unpakorn
have been integral part of it!
As well as Thaksins gooofs which are now playing the “victims””
Where are the young people that have been on the Phan Fah Stage
at the off peak PPTV times when Jatuporn and Nattawut were mao?
Never heard of them again.
What Thailand needs are people willing to take responsabilities !
On all levels.
Especially on the non electable level.
Runaway from responsability is the usual way of Thai men to
solve their problems.
So did Thaksin Shinawatra and Giles Ji Ungpakorn.
And now they both want to be the Thai Version
of Aung San Suuji, Nelson Mandela and Mother Teresa.
All in one. Thai style..
Two statements on the fourth anniversary of Thailand’s coup
BB,
Anusorn’s comment is on this thread:
http://www.newmandala.org/2010/09/19/september-19-redshirt-gatherings/comment-page-1/#comment-713019
September 19 – redshirt gatherings
This Bangkok Post piece has to be guilty of passing on some of the most blatant propaganda to date:
“Meanwhile, the Interior Ministry held a rival gathering of 50,000 people in Udon Thani yesterday.”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/197127/no-violence-amid-sea-of-red
The article says 10,000 reds in Bangkok, 50,000 pro-gov in Udon.
50,000 people would be among the biggest protests in Thai history (top 5) and by far the largest ever outside of Bangkok.
Let’s see the photos of that!