Handicap International estimates that 98% of the victims have been civilians, 27% children.
Cluster bombs look like toys. Kids are attracted to them, & pick them up. Motion triggers them off, no matter how long they have lain on the ground.
On average, 10 children had died every month during the previous 35 years, by 2008, let alone the limbless survivors. And it continues.
Thanks to Robert Cooper & NM for this post.
I was in Laos recently, hadn’t been there for about 5 years, and was really impressed with what I learnt from chats with locals & a farang guy who is currently setting up an eco-resort. He said that the govt has done a lot of planning, with European advisors, to avoid the sort of chaotic ‘development’ we’ve seen in Thailand. They’re being really helpful to foreign small investors, in order to encourage appropriate development (He said that dealing with Laos govt institutions is a dream compared with Thailand, & there’s virtually no corruption). They understand that local traders will get income from sales of produce, local handicrafts, food, etc., as more tourists come.
There’s also a Fair Trade network, & lots of organic produce (The coffee is excellent, & the local beef is superbly tender – a pleasant surprise after Thai beef, which is horribly tough & usually badly cooked.) Some time ago I heard that the Fair Trade thing is not entirely fair, as the village heads get the payments, and cream off a big chunk before passing it on to the farmers. Perhaps some more informed and up-to-date readers can comment.
Another thing that impressed me on that visit, and previous ones, was the level of English and French spoken by young people in Vientiane. Most of them have been taught by non-native speakers, and yet they willingly engage in intelligent conversation. I saw several staff at my guest- house studying Chinese and English from CDs. And they read real books! All of this is amazing after Thailand, where there is very little curiosity or motivation to really learn.
I really feel that this dirt-poor country deserves support. I hope that other foreign visitors share the affection I feel for it, & will participate in any positive movements to redress the evils of the past. I suppose writing to your local MP, and people like Hilary & her equivalent in your own country is one way of getting going.
JT C14. A fair few months ago (May actually) I actually heard that “security issues” would move to the “private sector” but in a structure a little different from what you lay out. I even offered the info to a foreign journo who wasnt very interesteed as it didnt fit with the analysis peddled at that time.
I have often been quite critical of your unsubstantiated claims in the past but this time find myself kind of corroborating this one but with a somewhat different take based on different information. I think more similar incidents to this and others are quite likely.
“If Laos expects US assistance, it must be prepared to do its part. And … it is best not to mention the war.”
.
On a purely practical basis I think this piece fundamentally confuses the psychology of the American public with that of the American government. Sweeping it under the table does not promote American government action to fix the problem, instead it is the repeated raising of the issue publically and from the point of view of pure morality that gets results.
.
You just have to look at the constant American publicly harping on various issues to see what they themselves think achieves progress – whether that is a good strategy in Asia or not.
.
If you are running a fund raising campaign amongst the American people then that is a different situation and downplaying the war may well be a good idea.
.
The primary goal of the convention is to prevent future use of cluster weapons not the cleanup of bomblets. The idea is to make the use of bomblets morally reprehensible. This is already having an effect even on those countries that haven’t signed. It should be given as much public support as possible. And it should be a matter of public shame for those countries that haven’t signed it – To strengthen its political effect. Because it is not just about this treaty – we are in the future going to need more of these treaties – for instance against the use of depleted uranium.
.
The likelihood of either Americans or their government handing over money for UXO disposal is still pretty low just based on purely moral pressure. A better strategy would be to combine it with the increased Chinese interest in Laos. A few high profile Chinese projects of strategic importance such as road and rail links and Laos may well find increased state department interest in helping.
Bill, I don’t think that manliness is cultural. My feeling is the cultural difference is Thaksin was from a wealthy Chiang Mai family he went to school with a lot of them at Montfort and grew up in a predominantly rural area and as all northerners he speaks northern first and central second. In other words, although wealthy, he’s looked at as one of “us” not one of “them”. Abhisit on the other hand comes from an elite Bangkok family, wasn’t even born in the country, likely couldn’t order lunch in Northern and as such does not gain the cultural respect of the people. In other words he’s one of them, the same thems that have looked down on the north for a century or more maybe even since the Sukhothai era. And I have a feeling that the people you talk to are telling you what they think you want to hear, that’s another cultural thing in the North.
Jim – I commented about the way the reds feel. “This flip flop between public and private conversations is a result the the Red witch hunt and intimidation campaign of the Military, police and government.” No one is talking to anyone they don’t trust anymore. This is definitely different from March and April when I was interviewing people in the north and everyone had a comment.
Nganadeeleg I could see what your are suggesting with your ‘constant power’ mention pertaining to Thailand, but I disagree.
What ‘constant powers’ would you attribute the dismally flawed democracies of Philippines, Indonesia and lots of other similarly politically out-of-sorts nations ? Like Thailand, these other very flawed democracies carry the characteristics of well-informed and adequately educated population plus healthy percentage of middle-class demographics. Yet . . .
I maintain that Thailand’s HMK Bhumibhol’s decades of benign reign/influence provided some counter-force to runaway corruption/abuses by past military or elected Thai leaders.
Perhaps there is NO WAY to prevent the rise of rogue monster-self-seeking leaders like Marcos, Suharto and/or Thaksin. And perhaps ‘well-functioning democracy’ in these nations would only come after some unknown political earthquake-like event that would shake those nations their people’s complacency.
no one has mentioned that on 4 September 2010 yet another Red Shirt former unarmed guard, 21 year old Krisadaa Klaahaan died from injuries received after an assassination attempt by certain state apparatus on 20 September 2010 as he was walking home with his girlfriend in Chiangmai from the market. The orders came through Abhisit & CRES. He was shot with M16 (calibre 5.56 mm) military rifle. Another life lost under repression and relentless hunt for opposition to the unelected PM Abhisit Vejjajiva’s government. Does anyone care? There are many people who do care but their voices are either silenced or not heard above the chaos, hegemonic propaganda, and disturbance generated by the reactionary far order. Did anyone also note how scared ordinary red shirts are in the north right now living under the current regime? As for the Gov’s benefits to the north- this is not true, In fact the GOv have slashed support for “red areas” and rewarded “yellow areas” (e.g. Chiangmai is to receive only Bt 4 million for TAO next year while Loburi will receive more than Bt 200,million!) /
Thanks all for your contributions – many worthwhile points. Ricefield Radio, the issue of ‘culture’ is I think one of the most interesting. Taking it in just a slightly different direction, there is amongst some of the people I talk to, a cultural sense that Thaksin exhibits a far more admirable kind of ‘masculinity’ than Abhisit. This has been commented on a few times. Thaksin’s ‘manliness’ is respected due to the fact that, ostensibly acting alone, he took on many of the big boys – military, bureacracy, Privy Council etc – and for quite a while, prevailed handsomely. As you say, the people of the North are far from stupid, and they know perfectly well that Abhisit survives only because of his powerful backers. For many, this translates back into a lack of ‘manliness’, particularly when compared to Thaksin. So this cultural dimension is at play in addition to Thaksin’s image of getting down in the dirt with the people as opposed to Abhisit’s projected haughtiness.
Despite this, I am still increasingly finding people saying things to the effect of ‘if Thaksin does good, I like Thaksin, if Abhisit does good, I’ll like him’. I’ve spoken to many people who say that at first they liked Thaksin, but now they’ve moved on due to the events in Bangkok. I haven’t to date heard people say they’ve moved on due to Abhisit’s welfare measures, perhaps because most of them remain in the ‘planning phase’ (and are pretty modest, with serious limitations at that). In fact, most Reds I talk to aren’t even aware that such welfare measures are on the table being discussed.
A cynic might say the police force was not there precisely to assist the army, i.e. to present the target as unencumbered by the limits of law and order as possible.
Another cynic might say the police force assumed Priewpan Damapong would be the next Chief of Police, and nobody wanted to jeopardize their jobs by being seen trying to restore law and order.
Another cynic might say that law and order isn’t what the police do anyway.
To the first cynic one might say – do you mean to tarnish the reputation of the army once and for all, or to help the army get the job done more quickly?
Fabio Polenghi was caught in the cross-fire of that dilemma.
To the second cynic one might reply – the absence of the police made it much more likely an election wouldn’t be held at all, didn’t it? Or do you mean that an election wouldn’t need to be held as there would be no sate left to govern?
Another terrible cross-fire.
To the third cynic – to stir the pot really hard you have to make things even worse, or break it.
~
Yes, that’s right. “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.” And of course it’s equally true that those who make violent revolution, make peaceful revolution much more difficult.
The irony is that the Thai people as a whole are for the first time in the history of the nation seriously engaged with politics. Before it was only the elite!
This isn’t 1976, Tarrin, because then there were only students and a few teachers. It’s 2010, Thailand is the most democratic nation in Southeast Asia, and as a result of that good fortune a fully-fledged peaceful revolution is visibly in progress.
You good and well-informed people on this site rail against the Army and the Elite and Oxford, and you talk about a Massacre. Imagine if the movement had succeeded, and Thailand were reduced to such chaos and disorder all you could do is start again from scratch? Every sin absolved, every crime written off? Imagine that historically. Imagine all the places that has happened in real history, and ask if you want to be there too!
The only thing that the movement is succeed (I assumed you are talking about the Ratchaprasong rally) then the most we have is an election and a draged on the change we suppose to have. Furthermore, I might also asked you to study about government order number 66/23 and its implication and how that brought about the peaceful reconciliation between the ex-survivor of 6 Oct massacre and how the 66/23 never actually complete its task, however, the 66/23 did do one thing that you mentioned it wrote off every crime and every sin absolved.
“The prime minister is concerned because he wants good reasons for the public to understand why Germany won’t sell us their engines.
Acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said Germany refused to sell the Deutz engines because of the European Union’s policy not to supply weaponry to countries where human rights, border and ethnic problems exist to prevent the weapons being used for violent suppression.”
From Bangkok Post, Sept 8, 2010.
“PM opens fire on armoured vehicle deal”
┬╖ Published: 8/09/2010 at 12:00 AM
Pokpong, I hope Ji Ungpakorn’s article printed at Prachatai last Monday September 6, 2010, helps expand your analysis further to its root cause. Ji basically argues that military institution needed to be reformed because it has been playing a key obstructing role against democratization process in Thailand.
Here’s his points:
1. Even though the power is center in one person but the “real power” behind that “power” is the military. The military differs from other ruling elites groups in the sense that it has the monopoly in the “use of force.” Furthermore, he argues that the Thai military has been using tanks to threaten its own people, whereas military in Laos, Vietnam, and Indonesia used tanks to liberate their countries.
2. Ji argues that the Thai military has only two main objectives: first, to suppress ordinary Thai people; and second, to use military institution to make money and wealth for the Thai Generals.
3. Among the three major institution: Nation, Religion, and the Monarchy. The military finds that only one institution, the monarchy, is compatible with the military’s institution interests, not the other two institutions: nation and religion.
4. The existing military organization and chain of command have been dominated by bad soldiers, which made it impossible for good soldiers to rise up.
A lot of people who have not spent a lot of time in the North think that the Red supporters are all uneducated and stupid farmers unable to think for themselves. This is not the case and the majority of Reds, and northerners for that matter, look at the re-branding by the government of the TRT policies as exactly that, re-branding Thaksin’s policies. They feel that their standard of living would have increased under a TRT/PPP/PTP government and have seen it eroded under the inept military and Democrats governments. Abhisit could give everyone a million baht and they still wouldn’t respect him, that respect is cultural and he just doesn’t understand the difference between himself and Thaksin, never has, never will. Probably everyone remembers the photo of Thaksin riding a motorbike through the mud and not wearing a helmet in Isan, a picture worth a thousand words. I personally remember the photo-op pic of Abhisit helping farmers wearing a suit and patent leather loafers. That’s the difference, the difference people see, or difference they want to see. Thaksin willing to get dirty and Abhisit looking like it’s such a personal burden to get mud on his shoes. Abhisit has no connection with common people and Thaksin still does.
Steve is quite right the Mae Rim base is huge. Having said that it’s also populated with soldiers and Noncoms from the area. I’ve often thought that in a full out civil war scenario if the foot soldiers would shoot their uncles or their officers, like they did in Bangladesh. The situation in Bangkok is not a true measure as a large quantity of the Soldiers used in the front line crackdown were from non red areas.
As for the reds disappearing in the North, don’t think so. I would say they have become more discreet in their actions and have broken into smaller groupings. I know a number who apparently have cooled to the reds but when cornered on their own, to a person, they all say that they have not really changed much. This flip flop between public and private conversations is a result the the Red witch hunt and intimidation campaign of the Military, police and government.
This is also very troubling because some of the more radical elements have obviously gone underground. These radical elements of the reds were once tempered under the UDD umbrella to some degree but now are in a position, if they move that way, to really create havoc like in the far South. With all the UDD leadership in jail on serious charges and the Yellow leadership running free on the same, this could really add fuel to their fire.
So there you have my viewpoint. Just as many Reds supporters now as before the Bangkok protests, they are just more cautious and not as obvious, but still red.
Christopher says “Life isn’t about political solutions but about tolerance and patience, about making the best out of what we’ve got already”
JFK said “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.”
“Why the police force was NOT there is a topic in itself, and if one could answer that question clearly all the pieces of the puzzle might fall into place”
Christopher’s question also provides a lot of the answers.
Just at the moment we’re grieving in Chiang Mai for our dear friend and mentor, Sam Kalayanee, who succumbed to cancer with great dignity and courage at the age of 50 just four days ago. None of us were ready to lose him, yet he was getting ready to leave us, and all his dreams as well.
Sam’s courage and privacy were the qualities we all loved most in him, weren’t they? So why are we surprised his passing is so hard to grasp?
My gut feeling is that the Red Shirt protests in April and May hastened Sam’s demise, and that there’s something very important for us to learn from that. “I’m a Communist,” he said many times to me, looking me straight in the eye as he always did through those glasses, waiting, waiting, waiting to see whether I could deal with what he meant. And I’m 20 years his senior, and an American!
This is what I say. As we grow older, and I mean even just to Sam’s age, a paltry 50, we’ve got to realize that our ideals are not what it’s about at all, but rather our shit detectors. We’ve got to grasp the shit in the ideas we die for – we have to accept that ideas can also be great burdens, and great deceptions too when they fall into the hands of great manipulators.
Life isn’t about political solutions but about tolerance and patience, about making the best out of what we’ve got already – por phiang. Kuhn Vera knows that, I suspect, but Maw Weng almost certainly doesn’t – to answer your good question, LesAbbey. Kuhn Vera knows por phiang – Maw Weng only what he knows in his head is even better than what he’s got, and is willing to die fighting for to the bitter end.
And we end up with the meaningless, sad, unfathomable debacle of Rajaprasong.
Sam’s life was undermined in April and May as he watched the protests on TV non-stop, he told me that, not working at all, not even corresponding with the people he loved most, or picking up the phone. The contradictions he saw on TV cheapened his dreams, he felt, and he emerged worn out and empty.
And that’s what made the noble Red Shirt movement so vulnerable to abuse too, of course, and why it was shunted down the siding where it founders even now.
You good and well-informed people on this site rail against the Army and the Elite and Oxford, and you talk about a Massacre. Imagine if the movement had succeeded, and Thailand were reduced to such chaos and disorder all you could do is start again from scratch? Every sin absolved, every crime written off? Imagine that historically. Imagine all the places that has happened in real history, and ask if you want to be there too!
The number of only 500 reds in the rally simply reflects the fact that their radio stations have not fully reopened. As soon as they have the stations up and running, people begin to know what is going on in town.
No wonder the military/CRES enjoys raiding radio stations, whether they are in Chiengmai or Udorn, or Vibhavadee Rangsit Rd in Bangkok. Similarly, the state of emergency still needs to be enforced in the capital because as soon as it is lifted, taxi radio stations will spring up like mushrooms. Just wait what CRES will do this coming 19th, which marks two important events, but if they prevent people from tying red ribbons at Ratchaprasong, be ready to be accused of double standard because they did nothing to stop yellow leader Chamlong from blocking Sukhumvit Rd near UNESCO office (under the same emergency law).
CRES started deploying soldiers in subway and skytrain stations but passers-by and passengers look at them as if they are hungry ghosts. Even a passing policeman sneered at them.
Lao-speaking Northeastern Thailand – Isaarn – has long been Thaksin heartland, more than the North.
It would be interesting to know how much of Chiang Mai changes are reflected in Isaarn.
I certainly know of Isaarn people who previously supported Thaksin now saying they don’t.
But how much is this simply keeping their heads down, while repression continues ?
MattB: Have you ever wondered why that is so?
In the Thailand ‘system’, what has been the constant power over several decades, and who have been their friends?
I’m not too surprised why you asked those question and the way your response, the whole thing is so gray that we might never get the answer after 20 years. Maybe you should study more about the aftermath of 6 Oct 76 and see how both actually move in quite similar fashion media censorship, propaganda, and political struggle . However, we dont have communist now and the number population involved is much larger, there were no water melon, pineapple, or tomato like 30 years ago.
Reading this entry and these comments, an observation from research I’ve recently conducted amongst young villagers in a Thai-Lao border village (on the Lao side of the Mekong) springs to my mind. One of the things transpiring from talks with these young people about Thailand and Lao PDR as both lived experiences and constructs (prompted by a series of pictures) was that they, unsurprisingly, associated Thailand (and certainly not Lao) with a monarchy. However, it’s of interest for this discussion to note that one of the pictures meant to stimulate some discussion on Lao was a picture featuring the statue of Chau Faa Ngum in the park close to Novotel. Despite the fact that most young people had actually passed this landmark when travelling to Vientiane and seen the image of Chau Faa Ngum in school textbooks or on Lao television quite some did not recognise this picture as being taken in Lao. In fact, several argued that this must be Thailand for reasons like paved roads, large buildings, lots of traffic, and interestingly, also because there’s a statue of a King!
When I explained that this picture was taken in Vientiane most indeed recognized the place. However, only few were confident about the name of the King in the picture and only very few could say anything more about Chau Faa Ngum and his role in Lao history (apart from something like ‘I’ve heard something about him in school, but now I’ve forgotten’).
Altogether, this little research exercise showed that these young people (mostly in their teens) regarded Lao PDR as a national construct as distinctly different from Thailand and they confidently regarded themselves to be part of the Lao nation-state (and certainly not the Thai) despite the fact that everyday relations and mobility in this border village all but confirmed such a clear line of division. To conclude, nation-building efforts carried out by the Lao (but also Thai) state (and also efforts to reduce irregular migration) do certainly have an impact, but it also suggests that the Lao (and Thai) state are by no means the only forces directing this process, or have full control over (or much awareness of) how ideas of nationality and the nation-state take shape in people’s everyday lives.
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Laos, please don’t mention the war
Handicap International estimates that 98% of the victims have been civilians, 27% children.
Cluster bombs look like toys. Kids are attracted to them, & pick them up. Motion triggers them off, no matter how long they have lain on the ground.
On average, 10 children had died every month during the previous 35 years, by 2008, let alone the limbless survivors. And it continues.
Thanks to Robert Cooper & NM for this post.
I was in Laos recently, hadn’t been there for about 5 years, and was really impressed with what I learnt from chats with locals & a farang guy who is currently setting up an eco-resort. He said that the govt has done a lot of planning, with European advisors, to avoid the sort of chaotic ‘development’ we’ve seen in Thailand. They’re being really helpful to foreign small investors, in order to encourage appropriate development (He said that dealing with Laos govt institutions is a dream compared with Thailand, & there’s virtually no corruption). They understand that local traders will get income from sales of produce, local handicrafts, food, etc., as more tourists come.
There’s also a Fair Trade network, & lots of organic produce (The coffee is excellent, & the local beef is superbly tender – a pleasant surprise after Thai beef, which is horribly tough & usually badly cooked.) Some time ago I heard that the Fair Trade thing is not entirely fair, as the village heads get the payments, and cream off a big chunk before passing it on to the farmers. Perhaps some more informed and up-to-date readers can comment.
Another thing that impressed me on that visit, and previous ones, was the level of English and French spoken by young people in Vientiane. Most of them have been taught by non-native speakers, and yet they willingly engage in intelligent conversation. I saw several staff at my guest- house studying Chinese and English from CDs. And they read real books! All of this is amazing after Thailand, where there is very little curiosity or motivation to really learn.
I really feel that this dirt-poor country deserves support. I hope that other foreign visitors share the affection I feel for it, & will participate in any positive movements to redress the evils of the past. I suppose writing to your local MP, and people like Hilary & her equivalent in your own country is one way of getting going.
The red’s northern challenge
JT C14. A fair few months ago (May actually) I actually heard that “security issues” would move to the “private sector” but in a structure a little different from what you lay out. I even offered the info to a foreign journo who wasnt very interesteed as it didnt fit with the analysis peddled at that time.
I have often been quite critical of your unsubstantiated claims in the past but this time find myself kind of corroborating this one but with a somewhat different take based on different information. I think more similar incidents to this and others are quite likely.
Laos, please don’t mention the war
“If Laos expects US assistance, it must be prepared to do its part. And … it is best not to mention the war.”
.
On a purely practical basis I think this piece fundamentally confuses the psychology of the American public with that of the American government. Sweeping it under the table does not promote American government action to fix the problem, instead it is the repeated raising of the issue publically and from the point of view of pure morality that gets results.
.
You just have to look at the constant American publicly harping on various issues to see what they themselves think achieves progress – whether that is a good strategy in Asia or not.
.
If you are running a fund raising campaign amongst the American people then that is a different situation and downplaying the war may well be a good idea.
.
The primary goal of the convention is to prevent future use of cluster weapons not the cleanup of bomblets. The idea is to make the use of bomblets morally reprehensible. This is already having an effect even on those countries that haven’t signed. It should be given as much public support as possible. And it should be a matter of public shame for those countries that haven’t signed it – To strengthen its political effect. Because it is not just about this treaty – we are in the future going to need more of these treaties – for instance against the use of depleted uranium.
.
The likelihood of either Americans or their government handing over money for UXO disposal is still pretty low just based on purely moral pressure. A better strategy would be to combine it with the increased Chinese interest in Laos. A few high profile Chinese projects of strategic importance such as road and rail links and Laos may well find increased state department interest in helping.
The red’s northern challenge
Bill, I don’t think that manliness is cultural. My feeling is the cultural difference is Thaksin was from a wealthy Chiang Mai family he went to school with a lot of them at Montfort and grew up in a predominantly rural area and as all northerners he speaks northern first and central second. In other words, although wealthy, he’s looked at as one of “us” not one of “them”. Abhisit on the other hand comes from an elite Bangkok family, wasn’t even born in the country, likely couldn’t order lunch in Northern and as such does not gain the cultural respect of the people. In other words he’s one of them, the same thems that have looked down on the north for a century or more maybe even since the Sukhothai era. And I have a feeling that the people you talk to are telling you what they think you want to hear, that’s another cultural thing in the North.
Jim – I commented about the way the reds feel. “This flip flop between public and private conversations is a result the the Red witch hunt and intimidation campaign of the Military, police and government.” No one is talking to anyone they don’t trust anymore. This is definitely different from March and April when I was interviewing people in the north and everyone had a comment.
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
MattB: You chose to mention only one of the ‘friends’ I may have been referring to.
Surely you can find some other constants?
(perhaps even some crossover into those other countries?)
Here’s a nice story & picture 🙂
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/30/AR2008083001936.html
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
Nganadeeleg I could see what your are suggesting with your ‘constant power’ mention pertaining to Thailand, but I disagree.
What ‘constant powers’ would you attribute the dismally flawed democracies of Philippines, Indonesia and lots of other similarly politically out-of-sorts nations ? Like Thailand, these other very flawed democracies carry the characteristics of well-informed and adequately educated population plus healthy percentage of middle-class demographics. Yet . . .
I maintain that Thailand’s HMK Bhumibhol’s decades of benign reign/influence provided some counter-force to runaway corruption/abuses by past military or elected Thai leaders.
Perhaps there is NO WAY to prevent the rise of rogue monster-self-seeking leaders like Marcos, Suharto and/or Thaksin. And perhaps ‘well-functioning democracy’ in these nations would only come after some unknown political earthquake-like event that would shake those nations their people’s complacency.
The red’s northern challenge
no one has mentioned that on 4 September 2010 yet another Red Shirt former unarmed guard, 21 year old Krisadaa Klaahaan died from injuries received after an assassination attempt by certain state apparatus on 20 September 2010 as he was walking home with his girlfriend in Chiangmai from the market. The orders came through Abhisit & CRES. He was shot with M16 (calibre 5.56 mm) military rifle. Another life lost under repression and relentless hunt for opposition to the unelected PM Abhisit Vejjajiva’s government. Does anyone care? There are many people who do care but their voices are either silenced or not heard above the chaos, hegemonic propaganda, and disturbance generated by the reactionary far order. Did anyone also note how scared ordinary red shirts are in the north right now living under the current regime? As for the Gov’s benefits to the north- this is not true, In fact the GOv have slashed support for “red areas” and rewarded “yellow areas” (e.g. Chiangmai is to receive only Bt 4 million for TAO next year while Loburi will receive more than Bt 200,million!) /
The red’s northern challenge
Thanks all for your contributions – many worthwhile points. Ricefield Radio, the issue of ‘culture’ is I think one of the most interesting. Taking it in just a slightly different direction, there is amongst some of the people I talk to, a cultural sense that Thaksin exhibits a far more admirable kind of ‘masculinity’ than Abhisit. This has been commented on a few times. Thaksin’s ‘manliness’ is respected due to the fact that, ostensibly acting alone, he took on many of the big boys – military, bureacracy, Privy Council etc – and for quite a while, prevailed handsomely. As you say, the people of the North are far from stupid, and they know perfectly well that Abhisit survives only because of his powerful backers. For many, this translates back into a lack of ‘manliness’, particularly when compared to Thaksin. So this cultural dimension is at play in addition to Thaksin’s image of getting down in the dirt with the people as opposed to Abhisit’s projected haughtiness.
Despite this, I am still increasingly finding people saying things to the effect of ‘if Thaksin does good, I like Thaksin, if Abhisit does good, I’ll like him’. I’ve spoken to many people who say that at first they liked Thaksin, but now they’ve moved on due to the events in Bangkok. I haven’t to date heard people say they’ve moved on due to Abhisit’s welfare measures, perhaps because most of them remain in the ‘planning phase’ (and are pretty modest, with serious limitations at that). In fact, most Reds I talk to aren’t even aware that such welfare measures are on the table being discussed.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
A cynic might say the police force was not there precisely to assist the army, i.e. to present the target as unencumbered by the limits of law and order as possible.
Another cynic might say the police force assumed Priewpan Damapong would be the next Chief of Police, and nobody wanted to jeopardize their jobs by being seen trying to restore law and order.
Another cynic might say that law and order isn’t what the police do anyway.
To the first cynic one might say – do you mean to tarnish the reputation of the army once and for all, or to help the army get the job done more quickly?
Fabio Polenghi was caught in the cross-fire of that dilemma.
To the second cynic one might reply – the absence of the police made it much more likely an election wouldn’t be held at all, didn’t it? Or do you mean that an election wouldn’t need to be held as there would be no sate left to govern?
Another terrible cross-fire.
To the third cynic – to stir the pot really hard you have to make things even worse, or break it.
~
Yes, that’s right. “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.” And of course it’s equally true that those who make violent revolution, make peaceful revolution much more difficult.
The irony is that the Thai people as a whole are for the first time in the history of the nation seriously engaged with politics. Before it was only the elite!
This isn’t 1976, Tarrin, because then there were only students and a few teachers. It’s 2010, Thailand is the most democratic nation in Southeast Asia, and as a result of that good fortune a fully-fledged peaceful revolution is visibly in progress.
Christopher
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
Christopher Woodman – 101
You good and well-informed people on this site rail against the Army and the Elite and Oxford, and you talk about a Massacre. Imagine if the movement had succeeded, and Thailand were reduced to such chaos and disorder all you could do is start again from scratch? Every sin absolved, every crime written off? Imagine that historically. Imagine all the places that has happened in real history, and ask if you want to be there too!
The only thing that the movement is succeed (I assumed you are talking about the Ratchaprasong rally) then the most we have is an election and a draged on the change we suppose to have. Furthermore, I might also asked you to study about government order number 66/23 and its implication and how that brought about the peaceful reconciliation between the ex-survivor of 6 Oct massacre and how the 66/23 never actually complete its task, however, the 66/23 did do one thing that you mentioned it wrote off every crime and every sin absolved.
Thailand’s hungry military
“The prime minister is concerned because he wants good reasons for the public to understand why Germany won’t sell us their engines.
Acting government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said Germany refused to sell the Deutz engines because of the European Union’s policy not to supply weaponry to countries where human rights, border and ethnic problems exist to prevent the weapons being used for violent suppression.”
From Bangkok Post, Sept 8, 2010.
“PM opens fire on armoured vehicle deal”
┬╖ Published: 8/09/2010 at 12:00 AM
Thai style reconciliation a recipe for further conflict
Pokpong, I hope Ji Ungpakorn’s article printed at Prachatai last Monday September 6, 2010, helps expand your analysis further to its root cause. Ji basically argues that military institution needed to be reformed because it has been playing a key obstructing role against democratization process in Thailand.
Here’s his points:
1. Even though the power is center in one person but the “real power” behind that “power” is the military. The military differs from other ruling elites groups in the sense that it has the monopoly in the “use of force.” Furthermore, he argues that the Thai military has been using tanks to threaten its own people, whereas military in Laos, Vietnam, and Indonesia used tanks to liberate their countries.
2. Ji argues that the Thai military has only two main objectives: first, to suppress ordinary Thai people; and second, to use military institution to make money and wealth for the Thai Generals.
3. Among the three major institution: Nation, Religion, and the Monarchy. The military finds that only one institution, the monarchy, is compatible with the military’s institution interests, not the other two institutions: nation and religion.
4. The existing military organization and chain of command have been dominated by bad soldiers, which made it impossible for good soldiers to rise up.
Prachatai:
р╣Гр╕И р╕нр╕╢р╣Кр╕Зр╕ар╕▓р╕Бр╕гр╕Ур╣М : р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Др╕Чр╕в р╕Бр╕▓р╕Эр╕▓р╕Бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕б
Mon, 2010-09-06 00:25
1. р╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╣Бр╕бр╣Йр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Др╕Щр╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕кр╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕бр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Ир╕╕р╕Фр╕ир╕╣р╕Щр╕вр╣Мр╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕Зр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕нр╕│р╕бр╕▓р╕Хр╕вр╣Мр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕з р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╣Бр╕Чр╣Йр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ър╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Ю
р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕Др╕зр╕гр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Гр╕Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╕Кр╕Щр╕Кр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕З р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕нр╕Ър╣Др╕Ыр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕в р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Чр╕╕р╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И р╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Кр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕кр╕╣р╕З
р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕кр╕┤р╣Ир╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Юр╕┤р╣Ар╕ир╕йр╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Ю р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╕Ир╕░р╕Ьр╕╣р╕Бр╕Вр╕▓р╕Фр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╕╕р╕Щр╣Бр╕гр╕Зр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕нр╕▓р╕зр╕╕р╕Ш р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╕╕р╕Щр╣Бр╕гр╕Зр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╣Гр╕Щр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕ер╣Йр╕бр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕е р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Жр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╣Ир╕▓
р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Хр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕зр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╕Щр╕▓р╕б р╕ер╕▓р╕з р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕┤р╕Щр╣Вр╕Фр╕Щр╕╡р╣Ар╕Лр╕╡р╕в р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Др╕вр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Кр╕▒р╕вр╕Кр╕Щр╕░р╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╕ер╕Фр╣Бр╕нр╕Бр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕и р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕бр╕╡р╕гр╕Цр╕Цр╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕зр╣Йр╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Вр╣Ир╕бр╕Вр╕╣р╣Ир╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Чр╕│р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Чр╣Ир╕▓
2. р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕Цр╕╕р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕Зр╕Др╣Мр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╕кр╕│р╕лр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Кр╕Щр╕Кр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Др╕╖р╕н р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Др╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Др╕зр╕Ър╕Др╕╕р╕бр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕бр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕ар╕▓р╕вр╣Гр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕и р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕Цр╕╕р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕Зр╕Др╣Мр╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Др╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╣Ир╕│р╕гр╕зр╕вр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Юр╕е
р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Бр╕Ър╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕гр╕Др╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Ю р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Бр╕вр╣Ир╕Зр╕Кр╕┤р╕Зр╕Ьр╕ер╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Вр╕вр╕Кр╕Щр╣Мр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Др╣Ир╕нр╕вр╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕нр╕░р╣Др╕гр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З
р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╣Ир╕│р╕гр╕зр╕в “р╕Ьр╕┤р╕Фр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Хр╕┤” р╣Ар╕Бр╕┤р╕Щр╕гр╕▓р╕вр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Фр╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Юр╕е р╕бр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕┤р╕Ир╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╣Гр╕Щр╕кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕зр╕┤р╕кр╕▓р╕лр╕Бр╕┤р╕И р╕Щр╕нр╕Бр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕бр╕╡р╕гр╕▓р╕вр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕бр╕лр╕▓р╕ир╕▓р╕ер╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Др╕нр╕гр╣Мр╕гр╕▒р╕Ыр╕Кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╣Ар╕Зр╕┤р╕Щр╣Гр╕Хр╣Йр╣Вр╕Хр╣Кр╕░р╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╕Лр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕нр╕▓р╕зр╕╕р╕Ш …
р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕лр╕бр╕Фр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Бр╕гр╕Зр╕Ир╕╣р╕Зр╣Гр╕Ир╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕гр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕▓р╕нр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Юр╕ер╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕З р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Ыр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕┤р╕Ир╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Хр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╣Ж р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕г р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕╡р╣Ир╕вр╕зр╕нр╕░р╣Др╕гр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ыр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕и
3. “р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╕ир╕▓р╕кр╕Щр╕▓ р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣М” р╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕│р╕бр╕▓р╕Хр╕вр╣Мр╕Кр╕Щр╕Кр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕З р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕вр╕╕р╕Д р╕кр╕др╕йр╕Фр╕┤р╣М р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕вр╕▓р╕бр╕ер╕Фр╕Ър╕Чр╕Ър╕▓р╕Чр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕ир╕▓р╕кр╕Щр╕▓р╕Юр╕╕р╕Чр╕Ш р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕ир╕▓р╕кр╕Щр╕▓р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Др╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Др╣Ир╕нр╕вр╣Др╕Фр╣Й р╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕З “р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤” р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕кр╕┤р╣Ир╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Вр╕▒р╕Фр╣Бр╕вр╣Йр╕Зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ъ “р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣М” р╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Ыр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕гр╕▒р╕Кр╕Бр╕▓р╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣И 5 р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░ “р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤” р╕бр╕╡р╕ер╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕Ур╕░р╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕гр╕зр╕бр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Щр╣Йр╕Щр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕Ър╕╕р╕Др╕Др╕е р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Щр╣Йр╕Щр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Щр╕┤р╕вр╕бр╣Гр╕Щр╕нр╕Фр╕╡р╕Х р╕бр╕▒р╕Бр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕нр╕▓р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣Мр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕в р╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щ р╕Др╕Ур╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕йр╕Ор╕гр╣М р╕Ир╕нр╕бр╕Юр╕е р╕Ы. р╕Юр╕┤р╕Ър╕╣р╕ер╕кр╕Зр╕Др╕гр╕▓р╕б р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Юр╕гр╕гр╕Др╕Др╕нр╕бр╕бр╕┤р╕зр╕Щр╕┤р╕кр╕Хр╣Мр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╣Др╕Чр╕в р╕Щр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕кр╕▓р╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Чр╕╡р╣И “р╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Бр╕йр╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕┤р╕вр╣М” р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕░р╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Ир╕нр╕бр╕Юр╕ер╕кр╕др╕йр╕Фр╕┤р╣Мр╕Ир╕Щр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й
4. р╕ер╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕Ур╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕кр╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Ю р╕бр╕╡р╕Ьр╕ер╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕зр╕▒р╕Тр╕Щр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╣Ар╕ер╕зр╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕бр╣Др╕Ыр╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╕нр╕Зр╕Др╣Мр╕Бр╕г р╕Др╕Щр╕Фр╕╡р╣Ж р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕лр╕Щр╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕Хр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕Юр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕зр╕▒р╕Тр╕Щр╕Шр╕гр╕гр╕бр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Й
The red’s northern challenge
A couple of things.
A lot of people who have not spent a lot of time in the North think that the Red supporters are all uneducated and stupid farmers unable to think for themselves. This is not the case and the majority of Reds, and northerners for that matter, look at the re-branding by the government of the TRT policies as exactly that, re-branding Thaksin’s policies. They feel that their standard of living would have increased under a TRT/PPP/PTP government and have seen it eroded under the inept military and Democrats governments. Abhisit could give everyone a million baht and they still wouldn’t respect him, that respect is cultural and he just doesn’t understand the difference between himself and Thaksin, never has, never will. Probably everyone remembers the photo of Thaksin riding a motorbike through the mud and not wearing a helmet in Isan, a picture worth a thousand words. I personally remember the photo-op pic of Abhisit helping farmers wearing a suit and patent leather loafers. That’s the difference, the difference people see, or difference they want to see. Thaksin willing to get dirty and Abhisit looking like it’s such a personal burden to get mud on his shoes. Abhisit has no connection with common people and Thaksin still does.
Steve is quite right the Mae Rim base is huge. Having said that it’s also populated with soldiers and Noncoms from the area. I’ve often thought that in a full out civil war scenario if the foot soldiers would shoot their uncles or their officers, like they did in Bangladesh. The situation in Bangkok is not a true measure as a large quantity of the Soldiers used in the front line crackdown were from non red areas.
As for the reds disappearing in the North, don’t think so. I would say they have become more discreet in their actions and have broken into smaller groupings. I know a number who apparently have cooled to the reds but when cornered on their own, to a person, they all say that they have not really changed much. This flip flop between public and private conversations is a result the the Red witch hunt and intimidation campaign of the Military, police and government.
This is also very troubling because some of the more radical elements have obviously gone underground. These radical elements of the reds were once tempered under the UDD umbrella to some degree but now are in a position, if they move that way, to really create havoc like in the far South. With all the UDD leadership in jail on serious charges and the Yellow leadership running free on the same, this could really add fuel to their fire.
So there you have my viewpoint. Just as many Reds supporters now as before the Bangkok protests, they are just more cautious and not as obvious, but still red.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
Christopher says “Life isn’t about political solutions but about tolerance and patience, about making the best out of what we’ve got already”
JFK said “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.”
“Why the police force was NOT there is a topic in itself, and if one could answer that question clearly all the pieces of the puzzle might fall into place”
Christopher’s question also provides a lot of the answers.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
Good points, Tarrin.
Just at the moment we’re grieving in Chiang Mai for our dear friend and mentor, Sam Kalayanee, who succumbed to cancer with great dignity and courage at the age of 50 just four days ago. None of us were ready to lose him, yet he was getting ready to leave us, and all his dreams as well.
Sam’s courage and privacy were the qualities we all loved most in him, weren’t they? So why are we surprised his passing is so hard to grasp?
My gut feeling is that the Red Shirt protests in April and May hastened Sam’s demise, and that there’s something very important for us to learn from that. “I’m a Communist,” he said many times to me, looking me straight in the eye as he always did through those glasses, waiting, waiting, waiting to see whether I could deal with what he meant. And I’m 20 years his senior, and an American!
This is what I say. As we grow older, and I mean even just to Sam’s age, a paltry 50, we’ve got to realize that our ideals are not what it’s about at all, but rather our shit detectors. We’ve got to grasp the shit in the ideas we die for – we have to accept that ideas can also be great burdens, and great deceptions too when they fall into the hands of great manipulators.
Life isn’t about political solutions but about tolerance and patience, about making the best out of what we’ve got already – por phiang. Kuhn Vera knows that, I suspect, but Maw Weng almost certainly doesn’t – to answer your good question, LesAbbey. Kuhn Vera knows por phiang – Maw Weng only what he knows in his head is even better than what he’s got, and is willing to die fighting for to the bitter end.
And we end up with the meaningless, sad, unfathomable debacle of Rajaprasong.
Sam’s life was undermined in April and May as he watched the protests on TV non-stop, he told me that, not working at all, not even corresponding with the people he loved most, or picking up the phone. The contradictions he saw on TV cheapened his dreams, he felt, and he emerged worn out and empty.
And that’s what made the noble Red Shirt movement so vulnerable to abuse too, of course, and why it was shunted down the siding where it founders even now.
You good and well-informed people on this site rail against the Army and the Elite and Oxford, and you talk about a Massacre. Imagine if the movement had succeeded, and Thailand were reduced to such chaos and disorder all you could do is start again from scratch? Every sin absolved, every crime written off? Imagine that historically. Imagine all the places that has happened in real history, and ask if you want to be there too!
Christopher
The red’s northern challenge
The number of only 500 reds in the rally simply reflects the fact that their radio stations have not fully reopened. As soon as they have the stations up and running, people begin to know what is going on in town.
No wonder the military/CRES enjoys raiding radio stations, whether they are in Chiengmai or Udorn, or Vibhavadee Rangsit Rd in Bangkok. Similarly, the state of emergency still needs to be enforced in the capital because as soon as it is lifted, taxi radio stations will spring up like mushrooms. Just wait what CRES will do this coming 19th, which marks two important events, but if they prevent people from tying red ribbons at Ratchaprasong, be ready to be accused of double standard because they did nothing to stop yellow leader Chamlong from blocking Sukhumvit Rd near UNESCO office (under the same emergency law).
CRES started deploying soldiers in subway and skytrain stations but passers-by and passengers look at them as if they are hungry ghosts. Even a passing policeman sneered at them.
The red’s northern challenge
Lao-speaking Northeastern Thailand – Isaarn – has long been Thaksin heartland, more than the North.
It would be interesting to know how much of Chiang Mai changes are reflected in Isaarn.
I certainly know of Isaarn people who previously supported Thaksin now saying they don’t.
But how much is this simply keeping their heads down, while repression continues ?
Abhisit and Thailand’s bad men
MattB: Have you ever wondered why that is so?
In the Thailand ‘system’, what has been the constant power over several decades, and who have been their friends?
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
Christopher Woodman – 97,99
I’m not too surprised why you asked those question and the way your response, the whole thing is so gray that we might never get the answer after 20 years. Maybe you should study more about the aftermath of 6 Oct 76 and see how both actually move in quite similar fashion media censorship, propaganda, and political struggle . However, we dont have communist now and the number population involved is much larger, there were no water melon, pineapple, or tomato like 30 years ago.
National celebrations and historiography in Laos
Reading this entry and these comments, an observation from research I’ve recently conducted amongst young villagers in a Thai-Lao border village (on the Lao side of the Mekong) springs to my mind. One of the things transpiring from talks with these young people about Thailand and Lao PDR as both lived experiences and constructs (prompted by a series of pictures) was that they, unsurprisingly, associated Thailand (and certainly not Lao) with a monarchy. However, it’s of interest for this discussion to note that one of the pictures meant to stimulate some discussion on Lao was a picture featuring the statue of Chau Faa Ngum in the park close to Novotel. Despite the fact that most young people had actually passed this landmark when travelling to Vientiane and seen the image of Chau Faa Ngum in school textbooks or on Lao television quite some did not recognise this picture as being taken in Lao. In fact, several argued that this must be Thailand for reasons like paved roads, large buildings, lots of traffic, and interestingly, also because there’s a statue of a King!
When I explained that this picture was taken in Vientiane most indeed recognized the place. However, only few were confident about the name of the King in the picture and only very few could say anything more about Chau Faa Ngum and his role in Lao history (apart from something like ‘I’ve heard something about him in school, but now I’ve forgotten’).
Altogether, this little research exercise showed that these young people (mostly in their teens) regarded Lao PDR as a national construct as distinctly different from Thailand and they confidently regarded themselves to be part of the Lao nation-state (and certainly not the Thai) despite the fact that everyday relations and mobility in this border village all but confirmed such a clear line of division. To conclude, nation-building efforts carried out by the Lao (but also Thai) state (and also efforts to reduce irregular migration) do certainly have an impact, but it also suggests that the Lao (and Thai) state are by no means the only forces directing this process, or have full control over (or much awareness of) how ideas of nationality and the nation-state take shape in people’s everyday lives.