Just to throw something back at you – you stated in a post above that
“I anyhow got into trouble a bit later, when the militants decided to fire a series of M79 when we reached Sarasin intersection.”
Be good to see your cast iron, verfiable facts for that matter. You actually saw the militants? Did you speak to them and confirm they were militants? What kind of militants were they – Red, Yellow, Army? Did you confirm this at the time? Or did you make an assumption?
Secondly, I’m afraid “deliberately targeted” in this instance means being shot by an army sniper. Snipers don’t take random shots or engage in exchanges of fire. They pick a target and execute. Saying Fabio was deliberately targeted doesn’t imply Fabio was singled out before he was even at the scene and for you to infer that is a distortion.
To be quite frank I don’t really care what you think about the information I put up here. What you think, as you weren’t there when Fabio was shot, is just as irrelevant as what I have to say. I too am interested in the facts. While they don’t exist, due to a Thai authorities cover up, we are left with sources, rumours and conjecture. Also, as a journalist, I’m sure you’ve considered anonymous sources, tip-offs etc on more than one occasion.
As for agendas – well, Nick, everyone has one of those. It just needs a bit of self-awareness to realise that. Yours is to sell your books, no? And to imply the agenda I have is to distort the truth is based on what evidence exactly? Or, once again, did you make an assumption? (I don’t have a problem with that – just throwing it back at you because you “only deal in facts” cos you’re so professional).
The myth of Suvarnabhumi and Sona & Uttara/Sonuttara visiting Thailand is maybe a little older than James Prinsep. I think the “fable from medieval Sri Lanka” you mention–the Mahavamsa, most likely — is probably closer to the source.
In areas of Northern Thailand, the Shan States, Sipsongpanna and Laos there are a series of mythical histories dating to about 15th-16th & century CE and later that talk of the Buddha, then Maha-Ashoka visiting the area, predicting that Buddhism would flourish there. These stories seem to be modeled (perhaps via Burma) on Mahavamsa, Thupavamsa, etc.
[…] contributor Eisel Mazard at New Mandala wrote a blog post: "Cambodia is not a Province of Thailand: the Modern Myth of Suvaс╣Зс╣Зabh┼лmi". The Pali language scholar takes a quick look at history, nationalism, and propaganda of Cambodia […]
Suvannabhumi (Thu-wanna-bhumi in Burmese) is a real historical kingdom of Mons now called Tha-hton in Lower Burma. Through the Buddhist missionaries of Indian King Ashoka Buddhism was already flourishing there by the 11th century when Burmese King Anaw-ya-hta destroyed the Mon kingdom in the name of Buddhism.
In their ancient religion pagan Burmese worshiped many gods and the spirits of dead people, animals, and earthly things like trees and mountains. Their monks known as Aree practiced a kind of violent martial art like the Kungfu monks from the Hong Kong movies, even much worse when it came to violence and aggressive sex.
They had long hair, drank alcohol, rode horses, and practiced alchemy. They also strictly followed an ancient feudal practice of forcefully taking and deflowering the virgin brides on their wedding nights.
The old religion and its weirdo monks met their violent ends they deserved in the hands of our first famous ruler King Anaw-ya-hta in early Eleventh Century. Before he went on and built the First Burmese Empire he accidentally met a wandering Buddhist missionary monk named Shin Ara-han from Thu-wanna-bhumi on the streets of Pagan during one of his royal anonymous rounds of the Capital.
The tranquil manners of the solemn monk impressed him deeply and he made a polite inquiry about his religion. For political and personal reasons he might have been thinking of ditching the old religion at that time. Maybe he just didn’t want his virgin bribes to be sent off to the monastery and screwed by some strange monks.
From that fortunate encounter with the Buddhist monk he pleasingly discovered the Buddhism. For whatever reason he killed most of the old monks, forced the rest into a life long slavery in his stables, and violently converted the whole populace into Buddhism.
He then sent his large army down South into Lower Burma and destroyed Thu-wanna-bhumi just to grab hold of their sacred Buddhist scriptures when they refused to hand them over peacefully.
And then was the very beginning of the centuries long civil war between Mon and Burmese in Burma.
Here is a photo posted by one of facebook’s member. I’m not sure about the time the picture is taken though so this might be early on, during, or after the ceremony.
If I do remember well, he was there with a friend, a photographer to, I did lost his name a German guy. Fabio told him he will run to the tent marked with the red cross symbol very near to the barricades to get some life picture the army approaching. his friend insisted not to go.
( all this is documented somewhere in Spiegel and elsewhere). I did know Fabio years ago, a funny guy, and allways good for a surprise. All this I do believe as it is typically if you a bitten by the virus to get the best life shot. We all know ( we do not know by whom and why ) paramedics got shot. Imagine Fabio left the tent only one step forward s this was his step to be shot to death. me a photographer worked in Israel, Jemen, Lebanon ,Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Africa, do know that death is often the fraction of a millimeter away, you can hear it, fell it smell it, if you are still alive it is a very strange feeling. Once I had to go for girls and all around were blown only some concrete sheltered me. The bus I was intended to go with was gone totally. Some army guy throw at m a leg and shouted wake up. Take the pickup and drive what you get to Hadassah hospital. I learned definitely to drive, this day , driving like mad max and stopped taking photos in war zones…I don’t regret. Who ever did tis massacre 56 persons, never was known. They claimed only one of three Arab organizations and did the what the ever do throwing bombs to innocent people, destroying their living claiming to have killed some small Soldat of their organization, disgusting but tell me a better way, even their God and mine too gives no answer…
Lee Jones. You are quite right in emphasizing the role of ASEAN, especially Thailand. in perpetuating theKhmer Rouge problem. Indeed, there was a Deng XiaoPping trail from the Thai port of Sattahip to the border with Cambodia through which Chinese arms and munitions were shipped to Khmer Rouge forces by Thai military trucks to the Khmer Rouge forces perched at the border. It was rumoured then that the Thai military got a 50% cut fot taking care of the security and shipment. Secondly of course the three resistance forces battling the Phnom Penh government were all operating in and out of refugee camps at the Thai border within Thailand. Thirdly the Thais were engaged in a bustling trade in gems and forest products with the Khmer Riuge Pailin enclave inside Cambodia even though UNTAC was denied entry. I myself witnessed this first hand. One day Mr Akashi the Head of UNTAC the UN peacekeeping force inCambodia and the military commander Australian GeneralSsanderson visited Pailin the Khmer Riuge stronghold along withPprince Sihanouk.Akashi and Sanderson were denied entry through Khmer Rouge territory heading towards Thailand by a young unarmed KR soldier with a bamboo pole. They obeyed him and this incident was reported everywhere as the day UNTAC blinked against the Khmer Rouge even though the KR was part of the Oaris Agreements and was supposed to grant access to UNTAC. I was also present as I was ordered, as a senior UNTAC official to sit with Prince Sihanouk in a six seater French helicopter as a sort of Royal winetaster. Unlike Akashi and Sanderson, i stayed overnight in the Khmer Rouge stronghold of Pailin ( a picture of this appears at the last page of my book). . Throughout the day I witnessed a constant stream of Thai trucks hauling away logs as if there was no tomorrow. I was a told the Thai military was afraid thir contract with the khme Riuge will be delcared nul and void by the UN. The Thais had easy access to Pailian where the leaders of uNTAC were denied access.
Back in New York Iam convinced that you who have done thorough research on the role of ASEAN even in the Credentials Commitee. Perhaps my research was mainly directed towards US policy which I found atrocious. I also have interesting personal anecdotes to tell from the 1980s when I was stationed in New York. Every year ASEAN would hold lavish dinners at the Grand Hyatt hotel in Grand Central station for all delegates to the General Assembly to lobby for the annual vote on seating the Khmer Rouge and partners at the UN General Assembly. Prince Sihanouk held his own lavish party at the Helmsley hotel for the same reason replete with live Cambodian band which accompanied him singing such standpys like Tea for Two and That’s what friends are for. the Khmer Riuge leaders were also there to watch evry move he makes. The third faction the KPNLF was represented by Sichan Siv with whom I often sat, Sichan later became the Us ambassador to the UN and wrote a book called Golden Bones. These expensive affairs were of course paid by ASEAN and reportedly indirectly also by the United States. I was invited to and attended both.
Thanks for bringing more light to this bizarre situation. Sihanouk is a great entertainer, inter alia.
Does anyone have any information on how well attended celebrations of HMQ’s Birthday were in Sanam Luang, and elsewhere, this year ?
After the Songkran riots, a journalist at FCCT, in private conversation told me he had reports that at that time numbers were significantly down – but I had no independent way of verifying that remark.
Great thanks for this very interesting piece. Just one suggestion for those interested in further reading on this topic. Katherine Bowie’s book “Rituals of National Loyalty” describes in rather vivid detail the initiation rituals of the Village Scouts in the late 1970s. It contains interesting passages that describe how the instructors told the story of Suvarnabhumi to initiates. These passages might provide some insight into both the way the story is told to people with a rather basic education as well as the political use the government has sought to make of this myth.
Simply put, the peoples of rural Isan, Laos, and Cambodia, don’t want another war.
That’s the case wherever there are wars… in Palestine, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in Iran… the people do not want war, it is aggressors from the outside that cause all the trouble.
Clearly “the peoples of rural Isan, Laos, and Cambodia” all have more in common with each other than those in Isan have in common with the people in Bangkok, than those in Lao have with the people in Wiangchan, or those in Cambodia have in common with those in Phnom Phenh.
The problems come from the greedy, urban plutocrats and militarists, world-wide.
Ralph Kramden #56 :
yes – how typical : all this is doing is giving more free publicity to
WikiLeaks, and making more people curious to read WikiLeaks.
Thank you for this – a most interesting, excellent article.
My only criticism is when you write :
“Still today, most people in Thailand have a vague sense that “Ashoka” was an important King, who somehow “gave” Buddhism to Thailand.”.
Sorry – but I just cringe when seeing this sort of conjecture, which all too frequently afflicts studies / reporting on this part of the world.
How do we KNOW that “most people in Thailand have a vague sense of” ?
Yes, of course, on the ground experiences give only a narrow perspective, and one needs more investigations from many perspectives. But – none has come out so far, therefore i would not go to any foregone conclusions here about things.
I am most wary of anonymous internet users citing “sources they cannot reveal” to make a point. Sorry, but that is pure rumor mongering. I deal professionally with sources that i cannot reveal – but all those sources tell me i have to corroborate by other sources (more often than not anonymous as well).
In more than a few cases sources get things wrong, fully, or partially, at times it turns out that they repeat rumors, and at other times people mislead by purpose because of an agenda.
Why would Fabio have been “deliberately” targeted? With him were many other journalists, two of them injured as well. None of them, including Fabio, had any high enough profile that would warrant the military to choose them out for assassination (because that is what “deliberately targeted” means).
Many people have been shot at that day, there were both dead and injured. Jumping to foregone conclusions that Fabio or other journalists were picked out in this situation is just rubbish – the same sort of conspiracy rubbish the government tries to sell the public over the soldier killed in the friendly fire incident at Vibhavadi Rangsit Road.
You have hard evidence that backs up your statements – give it to me. I believe that i have a reputation of not being the most ardent supporter of this government, so you can be sure that i will not whitewash anything that happened. Nevertheless, i am no propagandist either – i work with facts, sources whose statements i can corroborate, and not with rumor mongering.
“Nganadeeleg”:
Not just Fabio revealed something about ambulances, but almost every reporter that worked in the field.
Oddly enough, I checked to see if wikileaks still doesn’t work.
It does work now so maybe last night’s timed-out screen was really just a timed out screen. But maybe not? How can you tell? The problem is that without a transparent set-up, one is justified in always thinking the worst.
And, in itself, that helps to shut people up. Just get them worried and start making them mutter under their breath rather than speaking openly like free people.
Susie Wong. You obviously did not read my article properly. I never said that I agree with the international press that the ECCC is corrupt and that there was interference from governments. Anybody who knows me and read my book and my articles know where my sympathies are and certainly not with the international especially western press who have a one track mind, to want these trials to go on forever and to include new suspects now serving as senior officials in the government. This is to me very dangerous.
If you read my article carefully, I never said that the ECCC carries no credibility because it is corrupt. You put these words in my mouth and that is very dangerous. I only quote the press, the western press, who repeatedly consider the court corrupt and abhor government interference.Because of these accusations by donors, the court had perenneial difficulties of raising money from western donors. At one point the UN even stopped negotiating because the Eiuropeans, lobbied by the European legal council, do not want to continue with havbing a hybrid court. It is because of initiative by the Australian and Japanese that the UN adopted a resolution to resume negotiations. I was there when Europe voted against but Australia, japan, USA, China and Group of 77 third world countries all voted in favor of a resolution to resume negotiations. I was then an adviser to the Cambodian Ambassador inNew York and all senior government offificals, from the ambassador to the all senior offficials of the Cambodian government know andtrusted me.
What I oppose is that the western press, including the New York Times, the Wall Street journal etc. want to carry on the tribunal indefinitely, who want to have more people put to trial. New York York Times said that that the government should not hide anybody. They want to use the trial to continue and to include new defendants now in the government. In the ECCC, some UN recruited researchers were studiously and eagerly carrying out research on who else should be tried in the court. Their aim is to cause embarrasment for the government not to bring justice which they have helped deny from 1979 to 1991. In my book I trace he western attitude since 1979.I repeat again that at the time, instead of putting the Khmer Rouge on trial, like Neuremberg, the Khmer Rouge was recognized as the legitimate representtaive of Cambodia in the UN, rather than the PRK, because of maneuverings by the US, the west, China and ASEAN . Obviously these countrues did not think about putting the Khmer Rouge on trial. They did not want another Vietnam type government to rule Cambodia. This went on for 11 years until the cold war was over and the Soviet Union, . principal backer of the PRK agreed to sign the Paris Agreements. The letter of 7 June 1997 by the two Samdechs prime ministers following a strong suggestion of Thomas Hammarberg the UN representative on Human Rights. The Rome statutes were not even conceived at the time so to say that the Prime Ministers wrote the letter in the spirit of the Rome statutes was completely wrong. What I was saying is that some western powers still want to destroy the leaders of the government in power by insisting on expanding the trial to include new suspects even senior government officials. My point is that thirty years after the Khmer rouige was defeated, such continuation of the trial endlessly could cause turmoil and renewed unrest in the country and will jeopardize the economic stability and dynamic growth being enjoyed by the Cambodian people, especially its young people who like to enjoy life like their peers in other Asian countries with rapid economic growth. Reconciliation has already taken place between ex Khmer Rouge people and the vuctims.
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Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
Nick
Just to throw something back at you – you stated in a post above that
“I anyhow got into trouble a bit later, when the militants decided to fire a series of M79 when we reached Sarasin intersection.”
Be good to see your cast iron, verfiable facts for that matter. You actually saw the militants? Did you speak to them and confirm they were militants? What kind of militants were they – Red, Yellow, Army? Did you confirm this at the time? Or did you make an assumption?
Secondly, I’m afraid “deliberately targeted” in this instance means being shot by an army sniper. Snipers don’t take random shots or engage in exchanges of fire. They pick a target and execute. Saying Fabio was deliberately targeted doesn’t imply Fabio was singled out before he was even at the scene and for you to infer that is a distortion.
To be quite frank I don’t really care what you think about the information I put up here. What you think, as you weren’t there when Fabio was shot, is just as irrelevant as what I have to say. I too am interested in the facts. While they don’t exist, due to a Thai authorities cover up, we are left with sources, rumours and conjecture. Also, as a journalist, I’m sure you’ve considered anonymous sources, tip-offs etc on more than one occasion.
As for agendas – well, Nick, everyone has one of those. It just needs a bit of self-awareness to realise that. Yours is to sell your books, no? And to imply the agenda I have is to distort the truth is based on what evidence exactly? Or, once again, did you make an assumption? (I don’t have a problem with that – just throwing it back at you because you “only deal in facts” cos you’re so professional).
Gadoh (Fight)
It’s pretty much Dangerous Minds, though with Drama. Or even closer, compare with Yasmin Ahmad’s last film, Talentime.
Cambodia is not a province of Thailand
Many interesting ideas.
The myth of Suvarnabhumi and Sona & Uttara/Sonuttara visiting Thailand is maybe a little older than James Prinsep. I think the “fable from medieval Sri Lanka” you mention–the Mahavamsa, most likely — is probably closer to the source.
In areas of Northern Thailand, the Shan States, Sipsongpanna and Laos there are a series of mythical histories dating to about 15th-16th & century CE and later that talk of the Buddha, then Maha-Ashoka visiting the area, predicting that Buddhism would flourish there. These stories seem to be modeled (perhaps via Burma) on Mahavamsa, Thupavamsa, etc.
Cambodia is not a province of Thailand
[…] contributor Eisel Mazard at New Mandala wrote a blog post: "Cambodia is not a Province of Thailand: the Modern Myth of Suvaс╣Зс╣Зabh┼лmi". The Pali language scholar takes a quick look at history, nationalism, and propaganda of Cambodia […]
Cambodia is not a province of Thailand
Suvannabhumi (Thu-wanna-bhumi in Burmese) is a real historical kingdom of Mons now called Tha-hton in Lower Burma. Through the Buddhist missionaries of Indian King Ashoka Buddhism was already flourishing there by the 11th century when Burmese King Anaw-ya-hta destroyed the Mon kingdom in the name of Buddhism.
In their ancient religion pagan Burmese worshiped many gods and the spirits of dead people, animals, and earthly things like trees and mountains. Their monks known as Aree practiced a kind of violent martial art like the Kungfu monks from the Hong Kong movies, even much worse when it came to violence and aggressive sex.
They had long hair, drank alcohol, rode horses, and practiced alchemy. They also strictly followed an ancient feudal practice of forcefully taking and deflowering the virgin brides on their wedding nights.
The old religion and its weirdo monks met their violent ends they deserved in the hands of our first famous ruler King Anaw-ya-hta in early Eleventh Century. Before he went on and built the First Burmese Empire he accidentally met a wandering Buddhist missionary monk named Shin Ara-han from Thu-wanna-bhumi on the streets of Pagan during one of his royal anonymous rounds of the Capital.
The tranquil manners of the solemn monk impressed him deeply and he made a polite inquiry about his religion. For political and personal reasons he might have been thinking of ditching the old religion at that time. Maybe he just didn’t want his virgin bribes to be sent off to the monastery and screwed by some strange monks.
From that fortunate encounter with the Buddhist monk he pleasingly discovered the Buddhism. For whatever reason he killed most of the old monks, forced the rest into a life long slavery in his stables, and violently converted the whole populace into Buddhism.
He then sent his large army down South into Lower Burma and destroyed Thu-wanna-bhumi just to grab hold of their sacred Buddhist scriptures when they refused to hand them over peacefully.
And then was the very beginning of the centuries long civil war between Mon and Burmese in Burma.
Cambodia is not a province of Thailand
According to Thai media at the time of the airport opening, it was the present Thai king who named “Suvannabhumi airport”.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
Thaler – 35
Do you remember what happen in April of 2009?
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
Chris beale – 36
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?pid=177140&id=100000798993321&fbid=139087196127913&ref=mf
Here is a photo posted by one of facebook’s member. I’m not sure about the time the picture is taken though so this might be early on, during, or after the ceremony.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
If I do remember well, he was there with a friend, a photographer to, I did lost his name a German guy. Fabio told him he will run to the tent marked with the red cross symbol very near to the barricades to get some life picture the army approaching. his friend insisted not to go.
( all this is documented somewhere in Spiegel and elsewhere). I did know Fabio years ago, a funny guy, and allways good for a surprise. All this I do believe as it is typically if you a bitten by the virus to get the best life shot. We all know ( we do not know by whom and why ) paramedics got shot. Imagine Fabio left the tent only one step forward s this was his step to be shot to death. me a photographer worked in Israel, Jemen, Lebanon ,Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Africa, do know that death is often the fraction of a millimeter away, you can hear it, fell it smell it, if you are still alive it is a very strange feeling. Once I had to go for girls and all around were blown only some concrete sheltered me. The bus I was intended to go with was gone totally. Some army guy throw at m a leg and shouted wake up. Take the pickup and drive what you get to Hadassah hospital. I learned definitely to drive, this day , driving like mad max and stopped taking photos in war zones…I don’t regret. Who ever did tis massacre 56 persons, never was known. They claimed only one of three Arab organizations and did the what the ever do throwing bombs to innocent people, destroying their living claiming to have killed some small Soldat of their organization, disgusting but tell me a better way, even their God and mine too gives no answer…
An alternative view of the Duch verdict in Cambodia
Lee Jones. You are quite right in emphasizing the role of ASEAN, especially Thailand. in perpetuating theKhmer Rouge problem. Indeed, there was a Deng XiaoPping trail from the Thai port of Sattahip to the border with Cambodia through which Chinese arms and munitions were shipped to Khmer Rouge forces by Thai military trucks to the Khmer Rouge forces perched at the border. It was rumoured then that the Thai military got a 50% cut fot taking care of the security and shipment. Secondly of course the three resistance forces battling the Phnom Penh government were all operating in and out of refugee camps at the Thai border within Thailand. Thirdly the Thais were engaged in a bustling trade in gems and forest products with the Khmer Riuge Pailin enclave inside Cambodia even though UNTAC was denied entry. I myself witnessed this first hand. One day Mr Akashi the Head of UNTAC the UN peacekeeping force inCambodia and the military commander Australian GeneralSsanderson visited Pailin the Khmer Riuge stronghold along withPprince Sihanouk.Akashi and Sanderson were denied entry through Khmer Rouge territory heading towards Thailand by a young unarmed KR soldier with a bamboo pole. They obeyed him and this incident was reported everywhere as the day UNTAC blinked against the Khmer Rouge even though the KR was part of the Oaris Agreements and was supposed to grant access to UNTAC. I was also present as I was ordered, as a senior UNTAC official to sit with Prince Sihanouk in a six seater French helicopter as a sort of Royal winetaster. Unlike Akashi and Sanderson, i stayed overnight in the Khmer Rouge stronghold of Pailin ( a picture of this appears at the last page of my book). . Throughout the day I witnessed a constant stream of Thai trucks hauling away logs as if there was no tomorrow. I was a told the Thai military was afraid thir contract with the khme Riuge will be delcared nul and void by the UN. The Thais had easy access to Pailian where the leaders of uNTAC were denied access.
Back in New York Iam convinced that you who have done thorough research on the role of ASEAN even in the Credentials Commitee. Perhaps my research was mainly directed towards US policy which I found atrocious. I also have interesting personal anecdotes to tell from the 1980s when I was stationed in New York. Every year ASEAN would hold lavish dinners at the Grand Hyatt hotel in Grand Central station for all delegates to the General Assembly to lobby for the annual vote on seating the Khmer Rouge and partners at the UN General Assembly. Prince Sihanouk held his own lavish party at the Helmsley hotel for the same reason replete with live Cambodian band which accompanied him singing such standpys like Tea for Two and That’s what friends are for. the Khmer Riuge leaders were also there to watch evry move he makes. The third faction the KPNLF was represented by Sichan Siv with whom I often sat, Sichan later became the Us ambassador to the UN and wrote a book called Golden Bones. These expensive affairs were of course paid by ASEAN and reportedly indirectly also by the United States. I was invited to and attended both.
Thanks for bringing more light to this bizarre situation. Sihanouk is a great entertainer, inter alia.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
Does anyone have any information on how well attended celebrations of HMQ’s Birthday were in Sanam Luang, and elsewhere, this year ?
After the Songkran riots, a journalist at FCCT, in private conversation told me he had reports that at that time numbers were significantly down – but I had no independent way of verifying that remark.
Cambodia is not a province of Thailand
Great thanks for this very interesting piece. Just one suggestion for those interested in further reading on this topic. Katherine Bowie’s book “Rituals of National Loyalty” describes in rather vivid detail the initiation rituals of the Village Scouts in the late 1970s. It contains interesting passages that describe how the instructors told the story of Suvarnabhumi to initiates. These passages might provide some insight into both the way the story is told to people with a rather basic education as well as the political use the government has sought to make of this myth.
Cambodia is not a province of Thailand
Simply put, the peoples of rural Isan, Laos, and Cambodia, don’t want another war.
That’s the case wherever there are wars… in Palestine, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in Iran… the people do not want war, it is aggressors from the outside that cause all the trouble.
Clearly “the peoples of rural Isan, Laos, and Cambodia” all have more in common with each other than those in Isan have in common with the people in Bangkok, than those in Lao have with the people in Wiangchan, or those in Cambodia have in common with those in Phnom Phenh.
The problems come from the greedy, urban plutocrats and militarists, world-wide.
Big questions for Thailand
Ralph Kramden #56 :
yes – how typical : all this is doing is giving more free publicity to
WikiLeaks, and making more people curious to read WikiLeaks.
Cambodia is not a province of Thailand
Thank you for this – a most interesting, excellent article.
My only criticism is when you write :
“Still today, most people in Thailand have a vague sense that “Ashoka” was an important King, who somehow “gave” Buddhism to Thailand.”.
Sorry – but I just cringe when seeing this sort of conjecture, which all too frequently afflicts studies / reporting on this part of the world.
How do we KNOW that “most people in Thailand have a vague sense of” ?
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
“End of Days”:
Yes, of course, on the ground experiences give only a narrow perspective, and one needs more investigations from many perspectives. But – none has come out so far, therefore i would not go to any foregone conclusions here about things.
I am most wary of anonymous internet users citing “sources they cannot reveal” to make a point. Sorry, but that is pure rumor mongering. I deal professionally with sources that i cannot reveal – but all those sources tell me i have to corroborate by other sources (more often than not anonymous as well).
In more than a few cases sources get things wrong, fully, or partially, at times it turns out that they repeat rumors, and at other times people mislead by purpose because of an agenda.
Why would Fabio have been “deliberately” targeted? With him were many other journalists, two of them injured as well. None of them, including Fabio, had any high enough profile that would warrant the military to choose them out for assassination (because that is what “deliberately targeted” means).
Many people have been shot at that day, there were both dead and injured. Jumping to foregone conclusions that Fabio or other journalists were picked out in this situation is just rubbish – the same sort of conspiracy rubbish the government tries to sell the public over the soldier killed in the friendly fire incident at Vibhavadi Rangsit Road.
You have hard evidence that backs up your statements – give it to me. I believe that i have a reputation of not being the most ardent supporter of this government, so you can be sure that i will not whitewash anything that happened. Nevertheless, i am no propagandist either – i work with facts, sources whose statements i can corroborate, and not with rumor mongering.
“Nganadeeleg”:
Not just Fabio revealed something about ambulances, but almost every reporter that worked in the field.
Big questions for Thailand
Thaler,
You’re dead right.
Oddly enough, I checked to see if wikileaks still doesn’t work.
It does work now so maybe last night’s timed-out screen was really just a timed out screen. But maybe not? How can you tell? The problem is that without a transparent set-up, one is justified in always thinking the worst.
And, in itself, that helps to shut people up. Just get them worried and start making them mutter under their breath rather than speaking openly like free people.
An alternative view of the Duch verdict in Cambodia
Susie Wong. You obviously did not read my article properly. I never said that I agree with the international press that the ECCC is corrupt and that there was interference from governments. Anybody who knows me and read my book and my articles know where my sympathies are and certainly not with the international especially western press who have a one track mind, to want these trials to go on forever and to include new suspects now serving as senior officials in the government. This is to me very dangerous.
If you read my article carefully, I never said that the ECCC carries no credibility because it is corrupt. You put these words in my mouth and that is very dangerous. I only quote the press, the western press, who repeatedly consider the court corrupt and abhor government interference.Because of these accusations by donors, the court had perenneial difficulties of raising money from western donors. At one point the UN even stopped negotiating because the Eiuropeans, lobbied by the European legal council, do not want to continue with havbing a hybrid court. It is because of initiative by the Australian and Japanese that the UN adopted a resolution to resume negotiations. I was there when Europe voted against but Australia, japan, USA, China and Group of 77 third world countries all voted in favor of a resolution to resume negotiations. I was then an adviser to the Cambodian Ambassador inNew York and all senior government offificals, from the ambassador to the all senior offficials of the Cambodian government know andtrusted me.
What I oppose is that the western press, including the New York Times, the Wall Street journal etc. want to carry on the tribunal indefinitely, who want to have more people put to trial. New York York Times said that that the government should not hide anybody. They want to use the trial to continue and to include new defendants now in the government. In the ECCC, some UN recruited researchers were studiously and eagerly carrying out research on who else should be tried in the court. Their aim is to cause embarrasment for the government not to bring justice which they have helped deny from 1979 to 1991. In my book I trace he western attitude since 1979.I repeat again that at the time, instead of putting the Khmer Rouge on trial, like Neuremberg, the Khmer Rouge was recognized as the legitimate representtaive of Cambodia in the UN, rather than the PRK, because of maneuverings by the US, the west, China and ASEAN . Obviously these countrues did not think about putting the Khmer Rouge on trial. They did not want another Vietnam type government to rule Cambodia. This went on for 11 years until the cold war was over and the Soviet Union, . principal backer of the PRK agreed to sign the Paris Agreements. The letter of 7 June 1997 by the two Samdechs prime ministers following a strong suggestion of Thomas Hammarberg the UN representative on Human Rights. The Rome statutes were not even conceived at the time so to say that the Prime Ministers wrote the letter in the spirit of the Rome statutes was completely wrong. What I was saying is that some western powers still want to destroy the leaders of the government in power by insisting on expanding the trial to include new suspects even senior government officials. My point is that thirty years after the Khmer rouige was defeated, such continuation of the trial endlessly could cause turmoil and renewed unrest in the country and will jeopardize the economic stability and dynamic growth being enjoyed by the Cambodian people, especially its young people who like to enjoy life like their peers in other Asian countries with rapid economic growth. Reconciliation has already taken place between ex Khmer Rouge people and the vuctims.
Big questions for Thailand
What a healthy dose of discussion! with a dash of NotTheNation styled comedy from StanG.
It seems that Thailand will be the next in the list of countries to ban BB services to the public. Speaks volumes about Abhisit and his cronies.
Cambodia is not a province of Thailand
I just found out that the word SONA(сЮЯсЯДсЮОсЯИ) has two meaning: 1) is dog and 2) is the name of Bodhi tree where two Buddha had enlighten under.