Peter @ 26
The idea that only Thais understand Thailand, and farangs do not understand depends on the farangs point of view. If they are criticizing then they do not understand. If they are praising the government they are promoted and paraded no end.
“the power cliques need to be placed under the rule of law, not above?”
Why did you just list a few individuals and not include the obvious:
royal family,
privy councillors,
military generals and soldiers, BPP, mercenaries and vigilantes
legal system, judiciary
Is your approach of “personalisation” part of the elites approach to obfuscate and confuse the structural issues in Thai society?
Individuals in government and the institutions come and go but its the structures and processes that determine the life and productivity of the society.
In fact, rather than rule of law per se, I would put subservience to the will and decisions of democratically elected governments as the primary determinant of the health of a society.
Providing the institutions are accountable to and under control of the elected government that is itself accountable to the people at regular intervals then the reliability of the legal system follows.
to RK I do admit the world is not equal. That does not make inequality acceptable or right. University administrations should stand above inequality and lead by example, not conform to the basest of human behaviour. Discrimination in some areas is not justified by balanced ‘non-discrimination’ in others and ‘reverse discrimination’ is surely recognition that discrimination is in essence immoral and wrong. Twisted justification for helping some while discriminating against others unfortunately characterises Man’s march of folly. I recognise that discrimination will exist for as long as it is practiced by the very bodies that should be attempting to limit and elliminate it. Do not argue that discrimination is justified by poverty — both must be eliminated and to approve one is to countenance both.
Jim Taylor, it does seem that you are cutting off your nose to spite your face! You seem far too eager to disavow TS and his money in your rush to trumpet a ‘social’ movement, clearly trying to distance yourself from the authoritarian and corrupt TS (as authoritarian, corrupt and repulsive as the present regime) as you know that it directly contradicts and nullifies your ‘social’ movement. I put it to you that you are wrong about the feelings of the vast majority of the red shirt sympathisers and, in reality, you just meet and speak with a mere hard-line fringe of the movement who do, perhaps, have a ‘social’ agenda rather than a monetary one (in the sense of money politics). The problem is that, I suspect, you meet and deal with a fringe. You lack the understanding and the empathy of the masses. You come at everything from a western perspective.
I don’t know what circles you move in in Thailand, but I am convinced that you are blinded by a bias that does you, and your work, a disservice.
It is clear that TS and clan were heavily involved in funding the UDD movement, it is plain to see. I don’t deny that a great deal of the folks at the rallies and in the countryside also gave a great deal, but to deny that TS gave a huge amount of the money is just plain stupid. The only problem with that is that it really does your left-wing agenda no good and folks may start to see the manipulation going on.
Just for clarity, I do think that the present government is appalling in its abuse of freedom, I do think that the PAD are just as manipulative in their methods and goals and I do believe that TS, whilst stealing more than most also did more than most. My issue is your perception of the Thai political landscape, you come at it with a utopian left-wing agenda and that serves to dilute the impact of your remarks.
#26 “Ah, I understand now…………..as there is no one who is in fact “genetically Thai”, there is actually no one at all who can understand and analyze Thailand!”
Which makes a bit of a mockery out of ‘Thais Love Thais or to belong to a party ‘For Thais’. When the de facto mafia bosses of this country begin to acknowledge these contradictions, there might be some slight reason to begin listening to either successionist faction.
I encourage Khun Napas Na Pombejra keeps all the records of her good deeds( in attacking CNN on its coverage), the admiration she got from every one, including the Thai queen premanently frame them , hang them on the wall. It will be interesting pieces of Thai history in the future, hope fully not so far future.
Let the future and the real truth judge it. The real good deeds will stand the test of time.
#20 “Endless consumption, distractions and diversions seem to be the answer for them even in the Western liberal democracies.”
A large percentage of the expats in this region are here because they are essentially redundant in their home countries. (Which is most definitely NOT because they are unskilled. Rather, they have outlived their current usefulness to the omnipotent and ugly multinationals.) This is the price we have paid for uncritically allowing western politicians to follow their supposedly enlightened agendas. But it seems some posters in this forum are prepared to do just that, yet again, in the country of their residence.
As the entire educational system of the West is now a sausage machine devoted to churning out free market wage & salary slaves (who will eventually also learn how to make themselves conveniently redundant – teaching English abroad as an already lost cause), one truly wonders how beneficial a conventional education really is. I feel that way about my own education, and then I feel it twice as strongly when I see the farce of higher education here – controlled as it is by people with allegiance to both sets of shirts. Neither really has an interest in critical thinking, since it would undoubtedly make a complete mess of their constant desire to profit hugely with the minimum of actual effort.
Under all current circumstances, there is no party here I feel worth supporting in any future ‘revolution’, since they all have a record of cynical exploitation. Especially since there is no indication that they will become anything other than tyrranies.
There is definitely unfinished political business for most expats in their home countries. Make a difference where you can! Forget trying too dabble in local politics if you wish to avoid being completely let down. Both successionist sides will be only too grateful if you get up on stage and praise them, but they soon turn spiteful when you begin to actually think through the issues for yourself.
It should also be obvious, after all these (supposedly) post-colonial decades, that western ideas have almost zero relevance to politics in this region. Especially since, as Moe Aung points out, those western ideas are already largely rigged to suit the needs of the multinationals.
I fell out with the idea of violent revolution years ago – since it usually doesn’t fix anything for those who are usually called upon to spill their own blood for the profit of the usual minority. (Although I suppose there is such a thing as a revolution of ideas. Perhaps the word ‘change’ is more modestly appropriate.) But I can’t help thinking that ‘change’ is something we should experiment with in our own backyards. Especially since current mainstream western thinking has already become largely irrelevant to the vast majority of westerners.
It is obvious that the likes of Bob Amsterdam are completely out of their depth when it comes to local politics. But then again, I don’t suppose Bob will worry too much if the free market pays him handsomely to almost drown in public.
Yes, Khun Korkeur, PTP loser of Bangkok c6 by-election. He is from Pangga. The three stooges of Truth Today are from Nakhon Si Thamarat/nightly hour-long character assassins of NBT before it became ‘hoi mueung’/Prirates of the Carribean as the theme tune.?
I’m not too sure, but I’m sure that one of the 3 wise men is southerner, I think Natawuth.
Terry Fredrickson – 19
Whether it is manufactured or not but there are quite a big number of people that I believe very genuine to the movement, I believe you’ve heard something about people who got arrest trying to tied red ribbons on the Ratchaprasong sign.
Terry F says: “the core Thaksin programs are still going strong, a fact you never heard on the red stage.” That is incorrect. I heard a speaker on the Pan Fa stage berating the Democrat Party as no party at all and complaining about the fact that the only policies it had of any worth were lifted from TRT and PPP.
My experience post-crackdown is that people talk about politics in a way that is very different from, say 2009. There is a remarkable degree of increased political consciousness that is not something that can, in my view, simply be manufactured. My feeling is that much of what was said on the red shirt stage was reflective of this (and, indeed, on the PAD stage).
The implication that red shirt political consciousness is manipulation by savvy people is about the same as saying that the same people are misled or paid when they vote.
Chris Beale#18 FYI:
Red Shirt main leaders: Jaran, Nuttawut, Veera, and Jatuporn, KorKaew and the current de facto leader in place of those who are already in prison Worawut Wichaidit (р╕зр╕гр╕зр╕╕р╕Тр╕┤ р╕зр╕┤р╕Кр╕▒р╕вр╕Фр╕┤р╕йр╕Рр╣М), are all from the south of Thailand. This indicates that this is not a regional issue but crosscut in all domains and social arrangements.
I do agree that ‘most of us are capable of living within any system that has some small degree of humanity within it’. “Happiness is just being able to eat some cold rice in peace with a fan to cool yourself” goes a Burmese expression.
Only in Third Worlld politics we are less likely to see the leisurely, by and large less acrimonious, muddling through or horse trading which generally translates into ‘pragmatism’ or ‘real politik’ in the liberal democracies for whom all the tears, blood and guts were shed a very very long time ago by their forefathers on their native soil. The Napoleonic Wars and the two global conflagrations, like later regional conflicts in the Third World, were fought among the ruling classes or armed intervention by the superpowers.
People in general find it easier to complain about injustices and air their grievances, though I agree sound policies on real issues make better fighters with a stronger commitment. Unfortunately populist leaders and demagogues tend to hijack the masses to serve their own agendas. That’s how they turn the sons of ordinary folk to cannon fodder the world over.
In the end only a good education can free the mind to think critically and not hero worship or blindly toe the party line of any description or colour. But where’s the incentive for the ruling class in much of the world? Endless consumption, distractions and diversions seem to be the answer for them even in the Western liberal democracies. ‘Uneducate people’ says it all.
Why do you think these so called “established researchers” and French scholars on Laos did not attend the conference? Is it because most of them are older and retired and cannot travel long distance? Is it because they cannot afford the trip? Is it because they have not done anything new with their research and therefore has nothing to present? Is it because they did not know about the conference? Or is it because they do not see the importance of the conference?
Thanks for the post. This is a more accurate assessment of the conference. I agree that Grant Evans talk was interesting, but I cannot help that he is being a little pessimistic about certain areas of Lao Studies. For example, there were at least 15 presentations or more than 10% of total presentation on ethnic minority. Yet, he said there were only two.
#7 I saw a debate on tv ending in a fisticuff. An arrest would be first is its kind! And will make headlines in a major way, TIME: Caned in Singapore for beating SM Lee in debate.
#6 Their systems of rules of proper behaviour appear to differ from the cynic Mark Twain: A Christian holding four aces.
Robert Cooper: Didn’t you just say “Why pay more because skin is white?” Isn’t your argument that because you are WHITE and you are not a student (students get a discount), and therefore did not get a discount, you are a target of racism? Why are you going back on your words when I pointed out that Lao Americans, Lao Austrians, Lao French, Cambodians, Singaporians, Japanese, etc. are not white and they also did not get a discount?
This is not discrimination, it’s giving those who cannot afford it a break. Otherwise there will be no Lao people at the Lao Studies conference.
Why do senior citizens get a discount? Why do students get discount? Why do those who live below poverty line get a discount? Why do Laos or less developed countries pay less to the UN? Why do some universities give special considerations for enrollment to the Blacks, Native Americans, Southeast Asians, etc.? Why do universities give financial aid or scholarships to certain students and not all? This is to give them a break, not to discriminate. I hope you see the difference between the two. You have to admit this world is not equal. Some people need more help than other.
Glad that Malaysian young are out to test their mettle in some political statements activities instead of loitering in the malls. Mahathir’s headline observation: makan angin
Time will come when these Muslim young may consider Islam a social disease and be searching for its cure.
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Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
Peter @ 26
The idea that only Thais understand Thailand, and farangs do not understand depends on the farangs point of view. If they are criticizing then they do not understand. If they are praising the government they are promoted and paraded no end.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Srithanonchai
“the power cliques need to be placed under the rule of law, not above?”
Why did you just list a few individuals and not include the obvious:
royal family,
privy councillors,
military generals and soldiers, BPP, mercenaries and vigilantes
legal system, judiciary
Is your approach of “personalisation” part of the elites approach to obfuscate and confuse the structural issues in Thai society?
Individuals in government and the institutions come and go but its the structures and processes that determine the life and productivity of the society.
In fact, rather than rule of law per se, I would put subservience to the will and decisions of democratically elected governments as the primary determinant of the health of a society.
Providing the institutions are accountable to and under control of the elected government that is itself accountable to the people at regular intervals then the reliability of the legal system follows.
Lao studies conference 2010: the fascination of the marginal
to RK I do admit the world is not equal. That does not make inequality acceptable or right. University administrations should stand above inequality and lead by example, not conform to the basest of human behaviour. Discrimination in some areas is not justified by balanced ‘non-discrimination’ in others and ‘reverse discrimination’ is surely recognition that discrimination is in essence immoral and wrong. Twisted justification for helping some while discriminating against others unfortunately characterises Man’s march of folly. I recognise that discrimination will exist for as long as it is practiced by the very bodies that should be attempting to limit and elliminate it. Do not argue that discrimination is justified by poverty — both must be eliminated and to approve one is to countenance both.
ABC Interview with Jakrapob
Jim Taylor, it does seem that you are cutting off your nose to spite your face! You seem far too eager to disavow TS and his money in your rush to trumpet a ‘social’ movement, clearly trying to distance yourself from the authoritarian and corrupt TS (as authoritarian, corrupt and repulsive as the present regime) as you know that it directly contradicts and nullifies your ‘social’ movement. I put it to you that you are wrong about the feelings of the vast majority of the red shirt sympathisers and, in reality, you just meet and speak with a mere hard-line fringe of the movement who do, perhaps, have a ‘social’ agenda rather than a monetary one (in the sense of money politics). The problem is that, I suspect, you meet and deal with a fringe. You lack the understanding and the empathy of the masses. You come at everything from a western perspective.
I don’t know what circles you move in in Thailand, but I am convinced that you are blinded by a bias that does you, and your work, a disservice.
It is clear that TS and clan were heavily involved in funding the UDD movement, it is plain to see. I don’t deny that a great deal of the folks at the rallies and in the countryside also gave a great deal, but to deny that TS gave a huge amount of the money is just plain stupid. The only problem with that is that it really does your left-wing agenda no good and folks may start to see the manipulation going on.
Just for clarity, I do think that the present government is appalling in its abuse of freedom, I do think that the PAD are just as manipulative in their methods and goals and I do believe that TS, whilst stealing more than most also did more than most. My issue is your perception of the Thai political landscape, you come at it with a utopian left-wing agenda and that serves to dilute the impact of your remarks.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
#26 “Ah, I understand now…………..as there is no one who is in fact “genetically Thai”, there is actually no one at all who can understand and analyze Thailand!”
Which makes a bit of a mockery out of ‘Thais Love Thais or to belong to a party ‘For Thais’. When the de facto mafia bosses of this country begin to acknowledge these contradictions, there might be some slight reason to begin listening to either successionist faction.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
I encourage Khun Napas Na Pombejra keeps all the records of her good deeds( in attacking CNN on its coverage), the admiration she got from every one, including the Thai queen premanently frame them , hang them on the wall. It will be interesting pieces of Thai history in the future, hope fully not so far future.
Let the future and the real truth judge it. The real good deeds will stand the test of time.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
#20 “Endless consumption, distractions and diversions seem to be the answer for them even in the Western liberal democracies.”
A large percentage of the expats in this region are here because they are essentially redundant in their home countries. (Which is most definitely NOT because they are unskilled. Rather, they have outlived their current usefulness to the omnipotent and ugly multinationals.) This is the price we have paid for uncritically allowing western politicians to follow their supposedly enlightened agendas. But it seems some posters in this forum are prepared to do just that, yet again, in the country of their residence.
As the entire educational system of the West is now a sausage machine devoted to churning out free market wage & salary slaves (who will eventually also learn how to make themselves conveniently redundant – teaching English abroad as an already lost cause), one truly wonders how beneficial a conventional education really is. I feel that way about my own education, and then I feel it twice as strongly when I see the farce of higher education here – controlled as it is by people with allegiance to both sets of shirts. Neither really has an interest in critical thinking, since it would undoubtedly make a complete mess of their constant desire to profit hugely with the minimum of actual effort.
Under all current circumstances, there is no party here I feel worth supporting in any future ‘revolution’, since they all have a record of cynical exploitation. Especially since there is no indication that they will become anything other than tyrranies.
There is definitely unfinished political business for most expats in their home countries. Make a difference where you can! Forget trying too dabble in local politics if you wish to avoid being completely let down. Both successionist sides will be only too grateful if you get up on stage and praise them, but they soon turn spiteful when you begin to actually think through the issues for yourself.
It should also be obvious, after all these (supposedly) post-colonial decades, that western ideas have almost zero relevance to politics in this region. Especially since, as Moe Aung points out, those western ideas are already largely rigged to suit the needs of the multinationals.
I fell out with the idea of violent revolution years ago – since it usually doesn’t fix anything for those who are usually called upon to spill their own blood for the profit of the usual minority. (Although I suppose there is such a thing as a revolution of ideas. Perhaps the word ‘change’ is more modestly appropriate.) But I can’t help thinking that ‘change’ is something we should experiment with in our own backyards. Especially since current mainstream western thinking has already become largely irrelevant to the vast majority of westerners.
It is obvious that the likes of Bob Amsterdam are completely out of their depth when it comes to local politics. But then again, I don’t suppose Bob will worry too much if the free market pays him handsomely to almost drown in public.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Yes, Khun Korkeur, PTP loser of Bangkok c6 by-election. He is from Pangga. The three stooges of Truth Today are from Nakhon Si Thamarat/nightly hour-long character assassins of NBT before it became ‘hoi mueung’/Prirates of the Carribean as the theme tune.?
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Nattawut Saiguia, Jatuporn Promphan, Veera Musikapong/fmr Dem. and one other? are from the South.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
christ bale – 18
I’m not too sure, but I’m sure that one of the 3 wise men is southerner, I think Natawuth.
Terry Fredrickson – 19
Whether it is manufactured or not but there are quite a big number of people that I believe very genuine to the movement, I believe you’ve heard something about people who got arrest trying to tied red ribbons on the Ratchaprasong sign.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Terry F says: “the core Thaksin programs are still going strong, a fact you never heard on the red stage.” That is incorrect. I heard a speaker on the Pan Fa stage berating the Democrat Party as no party at all and complaining about the fact that the only policies it had of any worth were lifted from TRT and PPP.
My experience post-crackdown is that people talk about politics in a way that is very different from, say 2009. There is a remarkable degree of increased political consciousness that is not something that can, in my view, simply be manufactured. My feeling is that much of what was said on the red shirt stage was reflective of this (and, indeed, on the PAD stage).
The implication that red shirt political consciousness is manipulation by savvy people is about the same as saying that the same people are misled or paid when they vote.
We were once ‘Malaysians’
Your right Sawarin,
Thai citizens and the international community should demand that a properly elected government is put in place in Thailand.
And I wish the same for Malaysia.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Chris Beale#18 FYI:
Red Shirt main leaders: Jaran, Nuttawut, Veera, and Jatuporn, KorKaew and the current de facto leader in place of those who are already in prison Worawut Wichaidit (р╕зр╕гр╕зр╕╕р╕Тр╕┤ р╕зр╕┤р╕Кр╕▒р╕вр╕Фр╕┤р╕йр╕Рр╣М), are all from the south of Thailand. This indicates that this is not a regional issue but crosscut in all domains and social arrangements.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
FredKorat
I do agree that ‘most of us are capable of living within any system that has some small degree of humanity within it’. “Happiness is just being able to eat some cold rice in peace with a fan to cool yourself” goes a Burmese expression.
Only in Third Worlld politics we are less likely to see the leisurely, by and large less acrimonious, muddling through or horse trading which generally translates into ‘pragmatism’ or ‘real politik’ in the liberal democracies for whom all the tears, blood and guts were shed a very very long time ago by their forefathers on their native soil. The Napoleonic Wars and the two global conflagrations, like later regional conflicts in the Third World, were fought among the ruling classes or armed intervention by the superpowers.
People in general find it easier to complain about injustices and air their grievances, though I agree sound policies on real issues make better fighters with a stronger commitment. Unfortunately populist leaders and demagogues tend to hijack the masses to serve their own agendas. That’s how they turn the sons of ordinary folk to cannon fodder the world over.
In the end only a good education can free the mind to think critically and not hero worship or blindly toe the party line of any description or colour. But where’s the incentive for the ruling class in much of the world? Endless consumption, distractions and diversions seem to be the answer for them even in the Western liberal democracies. ‘Uneducate people’ says it all.
Lao Studies on the move
To Grant Evans,
Why do you think these so called “established researchers” and French scholars on Laos did not attend the conference? Is it because most of them are older and retired and cannot travel long distance? Is it because they cannot afford the trip? Is it because they have not done anything new with their research and therefore has nothing to present? Is it because they did not know about the conference? Or is it because they do not see the importance of the conference?
Further impressions on the 3rd International Conference on Lao Studies (Khonkaen July 14-16)
Thanks for the post. This is a more accurate assessment of the conference. I agree that Grant Evans talk was interesting, but I cannot help that he is being a little pessimistic about certain areas of Lao Studies. For example, there were at least 15 presentations or more than 10% of total presentation on ethnic minority. Yet, he said there were only two.
Overall, I enjoyed the conference as well.
We were once ‘Malaysians’
#7 I saw a debate on tv ending in a fisticuff. An arrest would be first is its kind! And will make headlines in a major way, TIME: Caned in Singapore for beating SM Lee in debate.
#6 Their systems of rules of proper behaviour appear to differ from the cynic Mark Twain: A Christian holding four aces.
Lao studies conference 2010: the fascination of the marginal
Robert Cooper: Didn’t you just say “Why pay more because skin is white?” Isn’t your argument that because you are WHITE and you are not a student (students get a discount), and therefore did not get a discount, you are a target of racism? Why are you going back on your words when I pointed out that Lao Americans, Lao Austrians, Lao French, Cambodians, Singaporians, Japanese, etc. are not white and they also did not get a discount?
Lao studies conference 2010: the fascination of the marginal
To Rober Cooper,
This is not discrimination, it’s giving those who cannot afford it a break. Otherwise there will be no Lao people at the Lao Studies conference.
Why do senior citizens get a discount? Why do students get discount? Why do those who live below poverty line get a discount? Why do Laos or less developed countries pay less to the UN? Why do some universities give special considerations for enrollment to the Blacks, Native Americans, Southeast Asians, etc.? Why do universities give financial aid or scholarships to certain students and not all? This is to give them a break, not to discriminate. I hope you see the difference between the two. You have to admit this world is not equal. Some people need more help than other.
That Effing Show
Glad that Malaysian young are out to test their mettle in some political statements activities instead of loitering in the malls. Mahathir’s headline observation: makan angin
Time will come when these Muslim young may consider Islam a social disease and be searching for its cure.